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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.11.30 00:37:00 -
[91]
Edited by: madaluap on 30/11/2007 00:39:05
 Originally by: Haradgrim
Originally by: Liang Nuren
LOTS OF QUOTE STUFF
I'll concede your point about Caldari being the worst at solo combat pre-patch, that was really just a shot at Amarr ( ).
So what you are saying is that post-patch:
Caldari have a better solo-pvp ship than the Domi (amarr too for that matter according to your list)
Caldari have a ship(s) you feel is/are better than the Vaga or Sabre, and to a lesser extent mega, deimos, domi, etc in a small gang?
Somehow your believe that the mega and hyperion will make worse fleet snipers than laser boats, or that the tracking nerf didnt effect the rokh..... at least the mega has a damage and tracking bonus which will reduce the impact of the changes.....
These changes have enabled Caldari to be more than the cannon fodder they have been for quite some time. I do agree however that Amarr got nerfed when they didnt need it.
Im gonna bother with this post tommorow, but ill give you some hints:
Solo pvp in a bs?
Longest range bs with tracking comps and sensorboosters requiring scripts?
ECM boost and ECM scorpion boost, while only valuable EW besides ECM is nerfed?
Damageboost to the raven?
Agility boost to caldari?
Fullout droneboat nerf?
Shortrange crapboats being outdamaged bigtime, while keeping ca****ues? (in situations where you dont drop out 2 km from your target each time, also known as the non-EFT world)
I couldnt care less, but that list you posted before was way, way off.
_________________________________________________
Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
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Posted - 2007.11.30 00:52:00 -
[92]
Actually, what this post has proven, is pretty interesting.
20% of the replies actually read the op. Half of these read the replies, and a fraction of those understood the point of it.
The point of op was not that caldari needed or didn't need a boost. It's the magnitude. Yes, caldari needed a boost, and believe it or not, so did minmatar, gallente and amarr. Gallente needed a nerf, so did caldari, minmatar and amarr(actually not so sure about amarr, but... whatever).
And seems few here even comprehend what balance even means. Yes, changing a mod affects the viability of other mods. Add to one scale or deduct from another, balance will be shifted the same way.
And as such most of the changes can be considered affecting everyone, but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente... my god.
If two men are using crutches, one due to a sprained ankle with a single crutch and the other's an amuptee with two, will the amputee suffer less from lesser quality crutches as he's got two?
Perhaps it's time to stop jumping to conclusions that everyone is after an easier time, better ships for themselves and jumps to the boards as to whine everytime they lose? How about... reading, comprehending or perhaps even trying both?
Postcount: 507269
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.30 02:14:00 -
[93]
Originally by: NoNah
The point of op was not that caldari needed or didn't need a boost. It's the magnitude.
And that magnitude was terribly misrepresented in the OP by counting... well... something strange.
Originally by: NoNah
If two men are using crutches, one due to a sprained ankle with a single crutch and the other's an amuptee with two, will the amputee suffer less from lesser quality crutches as he's got two?
Not everything that is lopsided is necessarily a comparison.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.30 02:34:00 -
[94]
Originally by: NoNah
Stuffs
Valid but not so much. Caldari got a few things in this patch and it doesn't amount to as much as everyone thinks. It's not really fair to say that one nerf boosts Caldari as a whole. The rook won't be more effective just because the Gal recon got nerfed, that doesn't make sense. You could argue that the Rook is now more effective THAN the Gal recons, but the rook itself is unchanged (aside from the added lowslot to bring it to par with the changed falcon).
The falcon, bb, scorp, were fixed in my eyes. I hated flying the falcon simply because it's chance to jam anything bigger than a cruiser was laughable, even with every slot geared towards the role.
The bonus boost was a FIX, not a buff.
The drone scoop redeploy was not a nerf to Gal. It was a unintended exploit that was left unchanged for some time. It does not effect Gal any more than any race in a reasonable comparision. It is now easier to cripple a droneboat yes, but it is now easier to cripple every ships DPS in the same way, not to mention the drone boats will now have plenty of extras. One could even argue that it effects the drone boats less than the average ship.
Again, this was not a nerf. It fixed something that was unintentially added to the gameplay.
What is left?
ECM gets a 40% cap reduction. Not that big a deal. With decent skills a blackbird can run 5 multispecs no problem as it is (assuming its best named and not t2). This change was probably added to make it easier to use the frigate Ewar and perhaps to make MWDs run easier on falcons and rooks (the only effective not-chanced-based way of living in said ships; all slots are dedicated to curb the crippled Ewar module).
Torps were increased in dps but decreased in range. It can easily be argued that this cancaled itself out. We will lose effectivness in pve but gain miles in pvp, something Caldari needed in terms of a dps ship. You also pretty much need a TP to hit a non-moving BS for full damage, assuming it isn't using anything that increases sig radius.
Increases agility. A random boost that really makes a difference. Caldari were the slowest, fatting, and agile-less ships in game, and now they turn the fastest. Woo.
Caldari nerfs include the flycatcher speed. It was already the slowest, now it's speed will rival the Drakes. Our railgun users are hurt from the same changes as any other ship, and believe it or not we also use sensorboosters. One could argue, as so many others do about other points, that a nerf to tracking distrubters also nerfs Caldari missle users. Ships will now fit these less often, making them fit modules that will actually work against Caldari missleboats (and drone users). More ravens indirectly means more EM weaknesses, a silent boost to Amarr.
This is by no means a patch geared directly at Caldari. Many of the whines target fixes that effect every race. I do agree that the Eos was nerfed to hell, and damps need to be fixed for the dedicated ships. These fixes to Caldari and exactly the same things people are complaining about for Gal. Dedicated ship boosts and DPS boosts (Drone bandwidth = less DPS for the big hitters prepatch)
To many people look at the races and not the individual ships. How is a boost to the Falcon itself a boost to Caldari? No other ship in the race benefits from this boost, and training a cruiser skill to 5 is by no means a lifetime commitment. Things such as agility boosts help Caldari as a whole, and it is fair to say this boosts Caldari. The torp boost is not a boost to Caldari, it only helps 2 of their ships and one from the Minmitars. (Zomg Minmitar boost!?!?)
Originally by: NoNah
but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente
False logic. Gal are effected in the same way as Caldari. The ships you are looking for are "drone boats". Even if they are Gal in nature, there are Gal ships that use drones in the same way as Caldari.
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Kuzya Morozov
Gallente
Organized Combat Consortium
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Posted - 2007.11.30 02:36:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Incantare
Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs?
It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue.
Many of the Gallente nerfs were much needed, some less so.
In short: shut up.
Yah, look under that race under your name...you have a very neutral point of view, don't you?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.30 02:51:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 30/11/2007 02:53:36
Originally by: Incantare
Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs?
Of course.
Best in PvE and not good in PvP just isn't balanced.
Best in PvE and bearable to brute in PvP is much better.
I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes.
Now players will not only create tons of Achura chars and/or grind L4's in Raven/CNR/Golem. No, in addition to Crows we will see tons of Ravens in PvP. Probably also even more Drakes.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.30 03:14:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Now players will not only create tons of Achura chars and/or grind L4's in Raven/CNR/Golem. No, in addition to Crows we will see tons of Ravens in PvP. Probably also even more Drakes.
yeah like you see only caldari ships pvping
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.30 03:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes.
That is going to happen in Trinity, the reduced torp range will make them useless for missions.
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This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.30 04:37:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes.
Are you familiar with the torpedo changes?
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
MasterDecoy
Gallente
Mass Impetus
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Posted - 2007.11.30 05:15:00 -
[100]
+ thorax cap use bonus change
Originally by: Evilempire1
good, im pentitioning you for slandering.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.11.30 07:51:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Khes on 30/11/2007 07:52:04
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
.
I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes.
I say that the torp range reduction is reducing the PvE effectiveness.
Edit: yes, I now noticed that this was allready answered, sorry 
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bellass
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Posted - 2007.11.30 12:08:00 -
[102]
i have different views on the scoring but agree in general. gallente had two of their unbalanced ships corrected and an exploit removed. turrets of all types took a large nerf. and caldari, the most popular race, got more boosting increasing their imbalance. it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp, they do a huge amount of damage consistently with little impact from movement except in extreme cases of very fast ships.
the main point though is that this will only add to the numbers joining the caldari online ranks and make any attempt to balance this in the future impossible by ccp for fear of losing their fastest growing client base.
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Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.30 12:32:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kuzya Morozov
Yah, look under that race under your name...you have a very neutral point of view, don't you?
I chose Caldari initially but that doesn't mean much. I am blaster specced and the ships I fly the most are the Thorax and Myrm -these nerfs will affect me directly but that doesn't change my opinions.
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Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.30 12:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: bellass
i have different views on the scoring but agree in general. gallente had two of their unbalanced ships corrected and an exploit removed. turrets of all types took a large nerf. and caldari, the most popular race, got more boosting increasing their imbalance. it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp, they do a huge amount of damage consistently with little impact from movement except in extreme cases of very fast ships.
the main point though is that this will only add to the numbers joining the caldari online ranks and make any attempt to balance this in the future impossible by ccp for fear of losing their fastest growing client base.
Not again.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.30 16:19:00 -
[105]
Originally by: bellass
it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp.
Show us on the dolly where the nasty Drake touched you...
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.30 23:57:00 -
[106]
Originally by: MasterDecoy
+ thorax cap use bonus change
Cookie for you's; Less whine More happy; People
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.12.01 01:14:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: bellass
it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp.
Show us on the dolly where the nasty Drake touched you...
lol
[Balance] The Caldari problem. |
AetomHaert Mother
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Posted - 2007.12.01 04:10:00 -
[108]
Edited by: AetomHaert Mother on 01/12/2007 04:12:02
well i dont fly gallente drone boats anyway, i like blasters. tracking computers and tracking disruptors might need a boost after this patch. i see what they were doing, ill wait to see how things pan out before i comment on the execution. also, you forgot that with all these added nerfs, sniping will now be owned by the rokh, so i am glad i can fly one too.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.12.03 00:41:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/12/2007 00:42:42
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes.
Are you familiar with the torpedo changes?
Gee, yes I am.
But it's not like the Caracal isn't still the best L2, Drake still the best L3 and Raven with Cruise still the best L4 mission ship, no?
Was talking about 'Caldari ships', not 'the Raven', right?
Come on, show some objectiveness.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2007.12.03 02:31:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 03/12/2007 02:35:23
Originally by: NoNah
but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
False logic. Gal are effected in the same way as Caldari. The ships you are looking for are "drone boats". Even if they are Gal in nature, there are Gal ships that use drones in the same way as Caldari.
It's not necessarily an entirely false logic. There are two issues with it though: it's referred to in extremes, and it's often misleadingly cross-referenced by most posters at their own discretion or when it suits them. So i would say that both of you have a point, i don't discredit Nonah's point about Gallente being generally more drone-oriented and would thus suffer slightly more should drones themselves become impoverished (do not mistake that for fixing scoop-exploits though). It's a question of being able to assume both aspects though and not put so much value into either of them that you become blind of the other: Certain changes impact differently on the races depending on how reliant they are on them, but at the same time they usually also affect all races at least to a certain degree.
What Nonah doesn't do however is aknowledge that in return to Caldari. If Gallente is the drone race above all, then Caldari are the sniper race bar none. Additionally, we have alot of ships whose primary (and sometimes only role) is not sniping alone, but also sniping smaller and mobile targets (support-sniping, or being the 'ass' as someone else so promptly put it). What do you think the changes to sensors and tracking computers do for those ships? Ranged ships also suffer quite alot from the damp nerf (even if i stem in with the general consensus that the module was too good, and now the only things left to deal with are the webs and scrams  ).
There are alot of Caldari ships that effectively suffer from this patch, and by Nonah's principle suffer more than other. All our ships dedicated to sniping, and especially all our ships dedicated to small-scale sniping. This while you can truthfully argue (by Atsuko's principle) that all ships can snipe and will get hurt by the changes, Caldari have more ships that excel in the role and some ships that don't have much other prominent roles outside of that. If Gallente is the drone race, then Caldari is equally the sniping race. So if you wish to argue a coin, be fair and honest enough to argue both sides of the coin. I'm sure there are alot of Eagle pilots around who are not thrilled with the proposed changes. I know that i am definately not considering the Trinity patch a buff for my skills invested in long-range warfare on Caldari ships.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.12.03 03:42:00 -
[111]
I reckon I'll be using Jav torps now instead of cruise on my ravens.
Anyone know offhand the range of javs with maxed skills from a Raven?
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
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