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Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 06:59:00 - [1] Fellow contenders, we can finally give you the preliminary score from the last forum whining contest. To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight. While we are still counting points, the results so far are: Caldari = +12 Minmatar = 0 Amarr = -7 Gallente = -15 And while the complete list of wins and losses would be to long for one post, I will just point out the ones that actually does matter to the final score. (Only nerfs/boosts where the ships role (bonuses) are affected, and general changes that affect most ships). Gallente: Eos: - drone bay - gun slots - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing - Gang link, info superiority nerfed Myrmid: - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Ishkur - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Dominix - scoop drone healing Vexor - scoop drone healing Ishtar - scoop drone healing Celestis - RSD efficiency Arazu - RSD efficiency Lachesis - Lachesis RSD efficiency Amarr - Tracking computers nerfed Curse: - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Pilgrim - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Minmatar: - Tracking computers nerfed Typhoon: + Torp damage Caldari: + ship agility to most ships Raven: + Torp damage Scorpion: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Falcon: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Rook: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Blackbird: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Nighthawk + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Vulture + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience. The question now is; Will the up and coming Gallente whining team take the challenge and try to recover? They have made a huge improvement and shown strong will the last couple of weeks. And will Amarr finally give up? Is this post a whine? Offcourse it is. If one thing is to be learned from this next patch, it is that whining works. More forum whining will give you good stuff. And for those who dont want to whine? Tough luck. Ok, Caldari whiners, show me your flaming skills.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:03:00 - [2] Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs? It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. Many of the Gallente nerfs were much needed, some less so. In short: shut up.
Steakkbone Helios Incorporated Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Incantare It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. weren't given their oomph Oomph must be given.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 - [4] i am fantastic for performing lifesaving surgery you for got the ishkur and malus for the gallente damp/drone ship and for the curse you might as well have put RSD nerf instead of TC nerf
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 - [5] So wait... Pre-Trin, most of the pvp-ships of choice were Gallente. Least of the pvp-ships were Caldari. Most boosts to Caldari are pvp-related. Most nerfs to Gallente are pvp-related. In my head it all makes sense! My head is a scary place though...
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Phoenicia So wait... Pre-Trin, most of the pvp-ships of choice were Gallente. Least of the pvp-ships were Caldari. Most boosts to Caldari are pvp-related. Most nerfs to Gallente are pvp-related. In my head it all makes sense! My head is a scary place though... go watch "mr stain on junk alley" you dont want to know where your head will be then
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/11/2007 07:22:19 Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec. So how about a more realistic score: Summary: Gallente -5 Amarr: -3 Minmatar: +1 Caldari: +3 Gallente: - Eos drone bandwidth - Eos gun slots - Myrmidon bandwidth - Ishkur bandwidth - RSD effectiveness Amarr: - Curse bandwidth - Pilgrim bandwidth - TD effectiveness (ok, granted, this is just insult to injury) Minmatar: + Torp damage Caldari: + ECM strength + Agility + Torp damage Inappropriate: - Tracking computer nerf (used by all races equally) - Drone shield nerf (used by all races) - Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all) - Gang mod cap use reduced (used by all races) - ECM cap use reduced (ECM ships are already cap stable, so this is mostly irrelevant) Doesn't seem so one-sided anymore, does it? Even with your absurd over-simplification of just counting nerfs/boosts without looking at how necessary they were and assuming all nerfs and boosts are weighted equally, the score is far less dramatic than you claim.
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton go watch "mr stain on junk alley" you dont want to know where your head will be then Is that like "Two girls one cup"? On-topic: Although I feel that the Gallente "nerf" and Caldari "boost" will go a long way towards some honest balancing in pvp, I feel that Amarrians also need a slight boost.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec. Pointing out the changes that affects all ships doesnt does not change the balance in any way. Thats why I only list changes that directly improve or degrade specialized ships. Some general changes affect 1 race a lot harder than the others, like tracking computer nerf, wich is a bigger problem for Amarr who are a lot more dependant on turrets than the others. Also some changes look like they will boost all races ships, but some of the ships get a lot better by than others. Like the gang link cap reduction. It will not matter much to gallente, minmatar and especially amarr command ships, since they will allways fit a cap injector anyways. But if you would passaivly tank a Nighhawk or Vulture, the cap drain from the gang links make a lot of difference. And boosts to ships that are fine allready should count. In the same way as nerfs for ships that are all ready broken should count. Actually that should really give bonus points in the whining contest to Caldari. And maybe Amarr should consider sacking their coach. Originally by: Merin Ryskin - Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all) Gallente gang mods will get their bonus for RSD and TD changed from 2% to 1.2% (that is a change).
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:44:00 - [10] Edited by: NoNah on 29/11/2007 07:44:35 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/11/2007 07:22:19 Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec. So how about a more realistic score: Summary: Gallente -5 Amarr: -3 Minmatar: +1 Caldari: +3 Gallente: - Eos drone bandwidth - Eos gun slots - Myrmidon bandwidth - Ishkur bandwidth - RSD effectiveness Amarr: - Curse bandwidth - Pilgrim bandwidth - TD effectiveness (ok, granted, this is just insult to injury) Minmatar: + Torp damage Caldari: + ECM strength + Agility + Torp damage Inappropriate: - Tracking computer nerf (used by all races equally) - Drone shield nerf (used by all races) - Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all) - Gang mod cap use reduced (used by all races) - ECM cap use reduced (ECM ships are already cap stable, so this is mostly irrelevant) Doesn't seem so one-sided anymore, does it? Even with your absurd over-simplification of just counting nerfs/boosts without looking at how necessary they were and assuming all nerfs and boosts are weighted equally, the score is far less dramatic than you claim. Actually... While not quite agreeing with most said so far, theres quite a bit of things to much wrong here, for me to remain silent. The rokh has had a problem so far, it needed the tracking from tracking computers, however not the optimal increase as it's allready on the boat. Making it end up with absurd ranges around 300km effective. With this change, it will need the same amount of tracking modules as before, while all other ships need the double. Same goes for all other caldari railships, but in lesser extent. And I do hope you realize not all ships rely as heavily on drones as Gallente and the amarr arbitrator-serie? Drones are a factional weapon of Gallente as much as rails are a weapon of caldari. Comparing the fleet commandships, you'll notice a difference when it comes to cap use. The vulture can go with a strong passive tank, however suffers severe cap issues when it comes to gang modules. It's by far the most cap hungry fleet command around. Guess what? So... because ships are capstable as it is, more cap is not a buff? Come on... Originally by: Patch Notes Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority now has different bonuses to different type of electronic warfare: ECM and target painters: 2% Remote sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors: 1.2% Postcount: 519225

the thorn Tres Viri	Posted - 2007.11.29 07:58:00 - [11] a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Brodde Dim Pointing out the changes that affects all ships doesnt does not change the balance in any way. Thats why I only list changes that directly improve or degrade specialized ships. But the point is these changes do NOT only degrade or improve specialized ships. You're insane if you think only Gallente drone boat pilots ever did the scoop-relaunch trick. Quote: Some general changes affect 1 race a lot harder than the others, like tracking computer nerf, wich is a bigger problem for Amarr who are a lot more dependant on turrets than the others. Every race has the same number of snipers and fits tracking computers with about the same frequency. My Vulture is just as nerfed by this as any Amarr ship, so counting the Amarr ship but not the Caldari ship is just absurd. Quote: Also some changes look like they will boost all races ships, but some of the ships get a lot better by than others. Like the gang link cap reduction. It will not matter much to gallente, minmatar and especially amarr command ships, since they will allways fit a cap injector anyways. But if you would passaivly tank a Nighhawk or Vulture, the cap drain from the gang links make a lot of difference. Have you ever flown a command ship? I have, and I can tell you two things here: 1) All four races benefit from the cap reduction. Even when you're fitting a cap injector (and here's a hint: the Caldari command ships fit them too), lower cap drain from your gang mods means your charges last longer, and a borderline sustainable setup might become indefinitely sustainable. 2) Passive tanked Caldari command ships are far less common than you think, outside of missions. The Vulture is usually an un-tanked fleet sniper, and occasionally an active-tanked midrange railboat. The Nighthawk is pretty much useless with a passive tank in pvp, since it leaves you with minimal dps and horrible mobility. So even Nighthawks are best used with an active tank... and guess what, a cap injector! That is, if you could actually find a way to put a gang mod on a Nighthawk in the first place, with that horrible grid problem... Quote: And boosts to ships that are fine allready should count. In the same way as nerfs for ships that are all ready broken should count. Actually that should really give bonus points in the whining contest to Caldari. And maybe Amarr should consider sacking their coach. It should count, but nowhere near as much as a boost or nerf that actually makes a difference. My Falcon is already sustainable until downtime. Adding an even bigger cap reduction provides absolutely nothing. The lack of slots prevents me from fitting any modules to use that extra cap even if I could think of one I actually wanted to use. This bonus just means my cap is stable at a somewhat higher percentage than it used to be, with no net result in the ship's effectiveness. Now can you honestly tell me that this bonus deserves to be counted as +6 (you forgot the Kitsune and Griffin), while giving the Raven +33% more dps (up to the level of blaster ships) only counts as +1? Originally by: Merin Ryskin - Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all) Gallente gang mods will get their bonus for RSD and TD changed from 2% to 1.2% (that is a change). Ok, point conceded. What the hell? Is this CCP's idea of a joke? Take the weakest of the four racial gang link types and nerf them even MORE??
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:00:00 - [13] Originally by: the thorn a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable Don't use multispecs. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
the thorn Tres Viri	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:07:00 - [14] Edited by: the thorn on 29/11/2007 08:06:54 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Don't use multispecs. blackbird with 3 multispec jammers is not cap stable blackbird with 4 racial jammers is not cap stable (using the goodol All level V) (nothing else, you dont have slots for cap mods anyway.)
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: the thorn a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable Don't use multispecs. That sort of logic is how teen pregnancies happen.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:10:00 - [16] Originally by: NoNah The rokh has had a problem so far, it needed the tracking from tracking computers, however not the optimal increase as it's allready on the boat. Making it end up with absurd ranges around 300km effective. With this change, it will need the same amount of tracking modules as before, while all other ships need the double. Same goes for all other caldari railships, but in lesser extent. Maybe true for the Rokh (at least when using spike ammo, which you shouldn't be doing 100% of the time), but it's definitely a nerf to the other railboats. It's a sniper nerf in general (especially added to the sensor booster nerf), and all four races have snipers. So counting it for just two races (Gallente? Ever hear of the fleet Megathron?) is just silly, it's a long range vs. short range nerf, not a racial nerf. Quote: And I do hope you realize not all ships rely as heavily on drones as Gallente and the amarr arbitrator-serie? Drones are a factional weapon of Gallente as much as rails are a weapon of caldari. Of course I know that. But every ship with a drone bay is dependent on drones to some degree, and loses the benefit of easily repairing drones. Also notice that this penalty is somewhat offset by the increased drone bay size on the dedicated drone ships. While your Myrmidon can now carry spare drones to replace losses, my Vulture is stuck with only 5 Warrior IIs. We both lose instant scoop-relaunch, but YOU have the ability to simply drop a fresh wave while the old one recharges. So if anything, it's LESS of a nerf to the dedicated drone ships! Quote: Comparing the fleet commandships, you'll notice a difference when it comes to cap use. The vulture can go with a strong passive tank, however suffers severe cap issues when it comes to gang modules. It's by far the most cap hungry fleet command around. Guess what? The Vulture is almost never passive tanked. Its primary role is an un-tanked fleet sniper. Its secondary role is a mid-range railboat with an active tank (or passive buffer tank, but that doesn't care about cap regen). The only way to fit a passive tank on a Vulture is by giving up all mobility (no MWD, reduced ability to warp around) and firepower (5 heavy missiles instead of rails). If you're going to give up all combat power, just fit seven gang mods, cap recharge, and park the ship at a POS. Quote: So... because ships are capstable as it is, more cap is not a buff? Come on... No, it's not. The ships can't even use the cap they already have, and have no room for fitting extra active modules. The only (very slight) difference is the ability to run a MWD for a bit longer, but that drains your cap so fast in either case that it makes almost no difference in the end.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:18:00 - [17] Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare. Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers. Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones. L2P
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:27:00 - [18] Edited by: NoNah on 29/11/2007 08:31:31 Originally by: Raekone Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare. Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers. Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones. L2P Caldari are the ones using ECM(ECM != EW) Amarr are the ones most affected by tracking computers and changes to them. Gallente are the ones most affected by drones and changes to them. Learn to comprehend. And for Merin Ryskin, while that is true, gallente ships and even more so pilots are in general more aligned to drones. You're more likely to find a megathron pilot with millions in drones, than a amarr or caldari counterpart. And with the changes a droneship pilot is forced to specialize in a dronetype in a wider extent then before. Spares are far more important(especially if you rely on drone damage exclusively), which means less versatility, which means... With that kind of logic, the torpbuff is a buff to the apoc aswell, seeing how it can fair well fitting 2 launchers. Not quite the case now is it? Postcount: 307946
Raekone	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:30:00 - [19] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Raekone Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare. Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers. Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones. L2P Caldari are the ones using ECM(ECM != EW) Amarr are the ones most affected by tracking computers and changes to them. Gallente are the ones most affected by drones and changes to them. Learn to comprehend. Most affected, yes, but not the only ones. As I wrote. Look up the word balance somewhere. Oh and if you haven't met anything else than caldari ships using ECM you need to get out more
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:34:00 - [20] You know, if you would count +1 for every Caldar ship whose agility gets boosted (all of them) you might be able to fabricate an even more absurd score for that race. Even now 8 out of your 12 points are ECM related... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.

Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Merin Ryskin But the point is these changes do NOT only degrade or improve specialized ships. You're insane if you think only Gallente drone boat pilots ever did the scoop-relaunch trick. Thats why I only count gallente ships that are specialized on drones. All the other ships with a drone bay gets evened out. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Every race has the same number of snipers and fits tracking computers with about the same frequency. My Vulture is just as nerfed by this as any Amarr ship, so counting the Amarr ship but not the Caldari ship is just absurd. All of the amarr BS are turret boats. All of them need help with both range and tracking, and some of them have very few midslots available.2 of 3 of the Minmatar ones depend on guns. Gallente needs TCs for both range and tracking when sniping, but they both have enough midslots to fit them. And tracking is more important than range for a blaster setup. Caldari has only 1 turret BS, and range is not a problem. So the TC change will actually be a boost here. And for the vulture, if it is an untanked fleet sniper it certainly have enough mids to fit 2 TC to get the effect of 1. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Have you ever flown a command ship? I have, and I can tell you two things here: 1) All four races benefit from the cap reduction. Even when you're fitting a cap injector (and here's a hint: the Caldari command ships fit them too), lower cap drain from your gang mods means your charges last longer, and a borderline sustainable setup might become indefinitely sustainable. 2) Passive tanked Caldari command ships are far less common than you think, outside of missions. The Vulture is usually an un-tanked fleet sniper, and occasionally an active-tanked midrange railboat. The Nighthawk is pretty much useless with a passive tank in pvp, since it leaves you with minimal dps and horrible mobility. So even Nighthawks are best used with an active tank... and guess what, a cap injector! That is, if you could actually find a way to put a gang mod on a Nighthawk in the first place, with that horrible grid problem... Yes, I fly all except minmatar command ships atm. And yes, the cap reduction will offcourse help all of them. But the change to a passive tanked Damnation will be minimal. While it will be huge to a passive tanked Nighthawk. And a NH as bait or in a friendly system is pretty nice. So if the scoring would have decimals, I would only give 0.5+ to caldari for this boost then. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Now can you honestly tell me that this bonus deserves to be counted as +6 (you forgot the Kitsune and Griffin), while giving the Raven +33% more dps (up to the level of blaster ships) only counts as +1? Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change. I am simply adding up the number of boosts and nerfs for each race. Also, even if the boost isnt very beneficial for a pilot with a good setup and good skills, it will certainly help all the pilots who are not there yet. And it will be a lot more forgiving for creative fittings.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:36:00 - [22] Edited by: Raekone on 29/11/2007 08:37:29 And besides I don't know what people are getting all hot and bothered about, you all know very well that you'll just go out and find some new uber setup/tactic in a matter of hours anyway. Changes come and people adapt, it's no biggie. edit I'm 100% specced for gallente ships/hybrids/drones btw
InnerDrive Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Brodde Dim Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience. He's right though, this patch is a insane caldari buff. Myself i only fly minmatar amarr and gallente, i never trained missile skills only gunskills. When i looked at the new npc ships i got sick, the golem is going to be INSANE, a target painting bonus? and what does the gallente one get? a web bonus that applys to the amount of webbing but ur still only going to have 10km range on it? lol How useless to have rails (range) fitted and u can only web stuff at 10km. Hows that going to help make u hit frigates at 12km with ur large guns? Allmost all frigates during missions orbit at more than 10km range and they web you to hell making getting closer to them pretty damn hard in a bs.... The golem just sits there spamming missiles at everything like a unstopable machine that dont even need to move to kill a entire complex. The only usefull Marauder looks like its going to be the caldari one again the golem. Just like allmost all lvl 4 mission runners use ravens/caldari navy ravens. And some more whining while im at it, WTF HAVE U DONE WITH CARRIERS. it was a ***** allready to get fuel for them, now you just removed 3/4 of the cargospace on them (the fuel ya coud put in indys inside the carrier is no longer possible), please give a carrier more space for fuel storage :(.
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Brodde Dim Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change. So you're delivering a comparative list, split by race, but you're not comparing? Basically you're saying "I don't even care if the ships that got boosted needed the boost"? Originally by: Brodde Dim I am simply adding up the number of boosts and nerfs for each race. Don't pretend to be unbiased: Originally by: Brodde Dim in OP To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight. The only part where you make a valid point (and that was random luck, cause you're really going for "zomg dont nerf my gallente ships!") is with the Amarr nerf. They're kinda weak already, and are in need of a boost, not a nerf.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:49:00 - [25] Seriously, my caldari alt is dancing jigs over this stuff... but you can't pretend like this isn't over the top with Caldari boosts. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:54:00 - [26] Weep Additionally. Sig removed for the third time, inappropriate content. Sig Locked. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:05:00 - [27] Edited by: Incantare on 29/11/2007 09:11:08 Some things that seem to have been lost in the above discussion: Amarr ships rely more on tracking enhancers than computers, TEs which remain unscripted. If anything it's a stealth Amarr sniper buff. Saying the Rokh doesn't need the extra range from TCs and can use them for pure tracking because it can already fire beyond locking range is narrow sighted. To have comparable damage to the other snipers at the same range, as is, the Rokh needs to fire lower range, higher damage ammo. Use tracking scripts and the Rokh loses raw damage.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:23:00 - [28] Ignoring the horrific inaccuracy and subjectivity that plagues your evaluation (if you can call it that!) of the impact the coming changes will have on various races/ships, I would like to point out that any negative changes to the performance of the Pilgrim and Curse at this point are fairly irrelevant, as those of us that were flying them for their efficiency jumped off that sinking ship a while ago. With a certain degree of accuracy, that statement can actually be applied to essentially any single Amarr ship, or indeed, the race in general. I actually have a suspicion that this is the primary reason Amarr have been such a comparatively low priority for CCP. On the other hand, while years of Amarr specialization have made me a bitter man, I am glad for once we aren't the ones getting shafted worst in a major game altering patch. As such, I will now be partaking in consuming the sweet tears of your misery alongside the Caldari while buzzing around in my cap stable Crusader.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Phoenicia Originally by: Brodde Dim Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change. So you're delivering a comparative list, split by race, but you're not comparing? Basically you're saying "I don't even care if the ships that got boosted needed the boost"? Exactly. I am not saying that the Eos is getting nerfed way too much. And I am not saying that TD nerf is another tough blow to the allready hard nerfed amarr recons. (Im not denying it either). What I am saying, is that forum whining apparantly makes CCP overcompensate all the time. Instead of fine tuning, they create new imbalances. And I am saying that, maybe because there are more caldari pilots than pilots from any other race, the caldari whine got attention from CCP again. There are a lot of ships that need fixing. And I think there will be even more after the patch. But I kind of expect the forum whining to be as one sided as usuall even after the patch, and the next patch will probably mean another bunch of buffs for caldari ships that dont really need it, and another sad day for amarr. Getting closer and closer to Caldari online...
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:15:00 - [30] Energy neuts got a small cap need decrease. +1 to Amarr recons. ============================================

Plaetean Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:31:00 - [31] Stop bloody crying and just play the game. -----
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:35:00 - [32] The nerfs were to RSDs and a change to drones, and while it certainly affects Lolentte, it affects every other race too. RSDs were that good that most pvp raven setups would field a rack of them and go with an armour tank setup. Drones have needed looking at for a very long time. The very idea you could instantly heal drones shields was always more of an exploit than sensible. As for the torp change, that really depends who you are talking too - i certainly welcome it, but as a pvper i don't speak for the majority of caldari who are pve pilots and far outnumber pvp players. I'd wager they think its a bad change to their mission running setups.
Augeas	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:14:00 - [33] Quote: The nerfs were to RSDs and a change to drones, and while it certainly affects Lolentte, it affects every other race too. RSDs were that good that most pvp raven setups would field a rack of them and go with an armour tank setup. Absolutely - and a rack of RSD was a fine fit for the Drake also. Now the Drake and Raven will be seen more with HAM/torp gank fits and dodgy, EM-soft shield tanks. Resulting in a nice stealth boost for Amarr and lasers.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:20:00 - [34] Yes, absolutely. Everyone can see the logic here. The nerf to tracking disruptors is really tough for Caldari, and a buff for Amarr. CCP should really get their act together and boost Caldari ships more.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Phoenicia Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: the thorn a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable Don't use multispecs. That sort of logic is how teen pregnancies happen. * * Nice hamster! - Mindstar Sorry, that hamster ate your sig.. - Random Guy123 Phear this sig! - Cortes
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Plaetean Stop bloody crying and just play the game.
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:45:00 - [37] Well @OP: goal achieved You pointed out an issue of a one sided approach by CCP and your post and the replies show that you are right. Well done. If only it was not so sad to see such a biased approach by CCP... __ - click here -
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Brodde Dim Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:33 Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:00 Fellow contenders, we can finally give you the preliminary score from the last forum whining contest. To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight. While we are still counting points, the results so far are: Caldari = +14 Minmatar = 0 Amarr = -5 Gallente = -15 And while the complete list of wins and losses would be to long for one post, I will just point out the ones that actually does matter to the final score. (Only nerfs/boosts where the ships role (bonuses) are affected, and general changes that affect most ships). Gallente: Eos: - drone bay - gun slots - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing - Gang link, info superiority nerfed Myrmid: - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Ishkur - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Dominix - scoop drone healing Vexor - scoop drone healing Ishtar - scoop drone healing Celestis - RSD efficiency Arazu - RSD efficiency Lachesis - Lachesis RSD efficiency Amarr - Tracking computers nerfed Curse: - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing + neut cap use Pilgrim - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing + neut cap use Minmatar: - Tracking computers nerfed Typhoon: + Torp damage Caldari: + ship agility to most ships Raven: + Torp damage Scorpion: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Falcon: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Rook: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Blackbird: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Griffin + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Nighthawk + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Vulture + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience. The question now is; Will the up and coming Gallente whining team take the challenge and try to recover? They have made a huge improvement and shown strong will the last couple of weeks. And will Amarr finally give up? Is this post a whine? Offcourse it is. If one thing is to be learned from this next patch, it is that whining works. More forum whining will give you good stuff. And for those who dont want to whine? Tough luck. Ok, Caldari whiners, show me your flaming skills. Edit: Added Neut cap use boost, and boosts for griffin. You sir are a baboon. While some of the nerfs are indeed ridiculous (like TD nerf and to a point SD nerf), this has nothing at all to do with Caldari Online. I agree, SD nerf affects Gallente recons badly but that doesn't mean that their Caldari counterparts just became powerful. They are simply better SUPPORT ships. The falcon still can't kill a light scout drone, the Rook set up for EW (the only sensible fitting) is much weaker than a Caracal. The agility nerf doesn't change the fact that Caldari ships are still heavy, slow and maneuverable like a pregnant stegosaurus. ECM is still useless on non-dedicated ships. The ONLY actual PvP boost for Caldari is the torpedo change. This introduces the ONLY heavy damage dealer for the race. Raven will be the only BS viable for killing stuff. The Rokh has range but no damage, the Scorp is a support ship. What does your oh-so-nerfed Gallente BS shop have left? Megathron, now the best fleet sniper in EvE, Hyperion with respectable DPS and a huge tank and the Domi, still powerful and very flexible. This post is nothing more than a whine about the nerf that takes I-WIN ships from you and turns them into something balanced. Cry more and stop pretending you care about the minor and well-deserved tweaks to Caldari. --- I am violence boat*
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:05:00 - [39] I dunno, Rokh with blasters seems to do enough dps for my needs. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:09:00 - [40] Caldari got candy and you didn't. Last few times we went shopping Caldari didn't get any candy. Maybe next time you'll get some. To be honest there's not all that much to see here, ECM got a buff, and we got our agility boosted. As mentioned you've managed to heavily skew those numbers and not even managed to do so with any degree of subtlety. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!

Monticore D'Muertos Caldari United Society Starfleet	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:23:00 - [41] minmitar get the sabre nerf (
Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:29:00 - [42] Ok to summarize the upcoming patch: Eos gets brought back in line with the other fleet commands - check Myrmidon gets brought back in line with the other tier2 bc's - check Remote sensor damp gets it's I-WIN fit on all ships role removed - check The exploit of instantly healing drones gets removed - check Extremely slow and heavy caldari ships get just a bit more agile - check Caldari gets one BS able to deal damage - check Falcon might actually be worth flying - check Ok. The only thing that isn't justified is the heavy hit on the gallente recons. We will see but they will most likely get their bonus boosted in future patches. And perhaps they will introduce a low slot module to boost damp effectivenes. --------------------------------------- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:54:00 - [43] Originally by: N1fty Energy neuts got a small cap need decrease. +1 to Amarr recons. +1 to caldari. i fit them on my raven to:)
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:10:00 - [44] Originally by: Juha85 Ok to summarize the upcoming patch: Eos gets brought back in line with the other fleet commands - check False. After the patch, Eos is not just the worst fleet command (which would be ok, one of them has to be), but point-and-laugh worst one. Originally by: Juha85 Myrmidon gets brought back in line with the other tier2 bc's - check Might be. It will probably be the worst one out there, but that's ok. Originally by: Juha85 Remote sensor damp gets it's I-WIN fit on all ships role removed - check The exploit of instantly healing drones gets removed - check Agreed with these. Originally by: Juha85 Extremely slow and heavy caldari ships get just a bit more agile - check Er. If the numbers published by someone are correct, they are now as agile as the most agile corresponding Minmatar ships. This is a bit much. Originally by: Juha85 Caldari gets one BS able to deal damage - check ... and how. I worry about Megathron and Tempest getting marginalised by Raven. Too much of a boost. On the other hand, the indirect boosts to lasers (more shield tankers) and target painters (that torps require) are good things. Originally by: Juha85 Falcon might actually be worth flying - check ... might? Might?!? That thing is a stealthy force multiplier like no other. Originally by: Juha85 Ok. The only thing that isn't justified is the heavy hit on the gallente recons. We will see but they will most likely get their bonus boosted in future patches. And perhaps they will introduce a low slot module to boost damp effectivenes. Yes. Damps being useless also in specced ships = bad. -- Gradient forum
The Anointed Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:11:00 - [45] Edited by: The Anointed on 29/11/2007 14:11:36 Originally by: Brodde Dim Gallente: Eos: - drone bay bonus - Gang link, info superiority Celestis - RSD efficiency Arazu - RSD efficiency Lachesis - Lachesis RSD efficiency The way in which you count scoop drone healing as a nerf kind of spoils the attempt at logic. Scoop drone healing was an oversight and has needed attention for a while now, it also affects every ship with a drone bay. The Eos having some of its gun slots removed is also not a nerf, more of a balance, however I would agree that soemthing else needs to be done in order to bring its survivability in fleets up to the same level as other ships in its class. As for the iskur, give me an argument as to why an assualt ship should need to deploy more than 5 light drones, that in my book is a sensible amount for an assault ship and it still has room for spares. The same applies to the Myrmidon, Medium drones are acceptable especially with the bonus, or is it right that it should field 5 heavies and be on a par with the dominix for drone damage? The eos is on the same level, although the bonus to drone bay size is stupid, so give it a bonus to resists or armour hp instead. RSD Efficiency, thats a tough one, however I also feel that it was required, but i shall let you keep them as negative points. Originally by: Brodde Dim Caldari: + ship agility to most ships Raven: + Torp damage - Range Lets start with the bonus to agility as being something that is required, there is no reason for caldari ships to be the massive bricks they currently are, they shouldnt be the most agile/fast, but they should come in line with others. I will give you the + for torp damage, its nice to have somethign that packs a punch at close range to large targets, but I would also like to stick in a negative for the reduced range, mainly because I feel that the change is more of a balance again. As for the others, well clutching at straws to be honest. Jammers have had issues from day 1, nobody will ever agree on what should be done about it, but especially with the scorp and blackbird, the bonus change was needed as they because pretty useless, its a trade off, however the system we have at the moment works fine from my point of view and the efficiency and cap use in my opinion is on your little list to make up points. The gang link issue is also a slim argument, a single gang link to benefit a passive tank that uses less cap? Surely you can see that there is little to no point in arguing that point? I dont fly amarr or minny, so I wont comment, however I do feel that the changes coming to both gallente and caldari are being blown out of proportion, its not the end or the golden age of either race. A final point, if ccp simply went on whats posted on these forums and used that information to make changes then this game would be a complete cluster.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Steakkbone Originally by: Incantare It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. weren't given their oomph Oomph must be given. Yes in the allmighty oomph we trust and hope for.
Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:42:00 - [47] I contend with the fundamental logic of the OP in that complaint (I refuse to call them 'whine') threads have any affect whatsoever on the developers of EVE Online. If that were true, Amarr and their ridiculous lasers would have been fixed long ago. CCP couldn't care less, and Trinity is further proof that those of us duped into choosing Amarr during character creation remain still the Joke Race of EVE. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:45:00 - [48] OP forgot to mention how worthless the Flycatcher is. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:47:00 - [49] I don't think I've EVER seen a more biased and ridiculous post on EO before! Not only does the OP count general boosts as Caldari only, he also counts general nerfs as Gallente only. Add to that the fact that the 2 ECM boosts are counted 5 times EACH in his +15 score. Specific Caldari nerfs (like the torp range) are also very conveniently left out. Congrats on your work of fiction! Maybe someone else without your obvious biased agenda can do the real calc..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Khyara	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:57:00 - [50] Once upon a time a co-worker of mine went to talk to the President of our company about a raise which was long overdue to him. He went to talk to the President because the Vice President, our boss, was giving him the run-around, anyhoo (and this is a true story), he later told me that he went into the meeting, and the President said to him the same thing the VP had said - "Well, Mr. X(psst thats not really his name - but he didnt say the psst part either), I see that you've had a 15% raise over the last year, and clearly that is above our % raise policy, so therefore, you cant have a raise" And he said "Thats interesting, because if you look at my base salary, obviously you got cheap labour when you hired me. Yes Ive already gotten a 15% raise this year, however that 15% raise doesnt even bring me in line with the base pay of this position, therefore you are going to give me a raise." Same thing with the Caladari. I love how EVE always relates to real life, dont you?

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Juha85 Eos gets brought back in line with the other fleet commands - check I more or less agree with you on the other points, but the above is simply false. Eos is now total crap compared to the other fleet commands, as a fleet support ship. The latest kick in the teeth was the nerf to the infowar gang links, already easily the worst of the four. I won't repeat the arguments from the (long) previous threads here, look them up if you're interested in the reasons. And yeah, damps being close to useless even on the specialized boats (Celestis, Arazu, Lachesis) is bad. I don't think anyone (even the pure Caldari players) wants us to go back to ECM being the only EW ever worth using. (same can be said about tracking disruptors on specialized boats, they also seriously need a boost)
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:12:00 - [52] Edited by: Khes on 29/11/2007 15:12:50 Originally by: Brodde Dim And I am saying that, maybe because there are more caldari pilots than pilots from any other race, the caldari whine got attention from CCP again. So do you mean that Caldari didn't need for example a ship agility boost and it will instead making things unbalanced ???
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:29:00 - [53] Ohh mommy mommy gallente babys cry whSSSS .. now another race is almost as good as gallente babys whSSS whSSS this can't be ! You fail, gallente, your points counting is corrupt. For example you give the caldaris a + for torp damge but no - for torp range nerf. Or you "forget" to give the Gallentes a + for new stronger drones (which gallentes profit the most of, with their drone-specced ships) and give a lot of - for the same thing (each ship one).
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:01:00 - [54] What a crock of ****e. Gallente have had it coming for a long time, 'adapt'. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:04:00 - [55] Caldari buffs = +1 Gallente nerfs = +1 Gallente and Amarr whining = priceless
Suitonia Gallente interimo A.F.K	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:27:00 - [56] Meta level 1 to 4 shield boosters now have the same duration as tech 1 shield boosters (meta level 0). Shield boost amount and capacitor need have been adjusted: The efficiency has been increased by +12.5% and the boost rate has been increased up to +12.5% for meta level 0 down to -10% for meta level 4. This ensures that the increase in boost rate and efficiency between tech 1 and tech 2 is in line with the values for armor repairers. You forgot this Caldari buff too. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:31:00 - [57] Originally by: N1fty Energy neuts got a small cap need decrease. +1 to Amarr recons. Actually the patch note is misleading. The best named medium neut did not change in efficencey at all. The efficency of T2 medium neuts was brought in line with the best named T1, and the patch note if you read it with the comma, was ment to only address small neuts. It would be nice if they actually would make Neuts significantly more efficent... ECM got a 40% reduction in cap use... but I wouldn't hold your breath. It seems that ECM jamming is destined to be the only viable EWAR.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:41:00 - [58] Originally by: Leon 026 OP forgot to mention how worthless the Flycatcher is. Yeh totally wtf owned by the eris. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:49:00 - [59] Originally by: Oam Mkoll You sir are a baboon. While some of the nerfs are indeed ridiculous (like TD nerf and to a point SD nerf), this has nothing at all to do with Caldari Online. I agree, SD nerf affects Gallente recons badly but that doesn't mean that their Caldari counterparts just became powerful. They are simply better SUPPORT ships. The falcon still can't kill a light scout drone, the Rook set up for EW (the only sensible fitting) is much weaker than a Caracal. Even though it is beside my point, I agree recons EW ability should be a support to gangs. Amarr were allways more of solo ships, but the others are clearly gang orientet. The changes will not really make Amarr recons more viable for other than solo work, and the gallente recons will only be really usefull for the scram range bonus. (as long as the Keres isnt cheap enough to be a better choice). My point is still that whining seem to have made CCP overcompensate again. If Eos is overpowered, a nerf is needed. But 5 nerfs on one ship imho a bit harsh. If ECM is underpowered, give it a small boost. But nerfing all other kinds of EW and at the same time giving ECM a couple of buffs, will most certainly turn the table and make it overpowered. Originally by: Kerfira Not only does the OP count general boosts as Caldari only, he also counts general nerfs as Gallente only. Add to that the fact that the 2 ECM boosts are counted 5 times EACH in his +15 score. Specific Caldari nerfs (like the torp range) are also very conveniently left out. Yes, I only count how changes affect the specialized ships. How the general changes affect not specialized ships is not important since it will balance out. So I count how many ships got a role bonus buff or a role bonus nerf. If you really think the changes to torps is a nerf, I suggest you start a thread and ask CCP to not change it. I think you will get very nice response from your fellow caldari pilots. Originally by: Khes So do you mean that Caldari didn't need for example a ship agility boost and it will instead only make things unbalanced ??? I dont say anything about the changes, I just count them. There are plenty of people making comments, whines, suggestions and so on about changes needed/wanted for ships in this part of the forum. Some are really needed and well backed up by facts and examples. Others are luxury or just silly. Some have only a few pilots interested and supporting them. Others have a lot of people benefiting from the changes and get a lot of attention. What I tried to say in this thread is that this time the Caldari whine soldiers won. And by the replies I have gotten so far I can see why. The dedication and whine-fuu is really strong. Congratulations, keep up the good work.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Suitonia Meta level 1 to 4 shield boosters now have the same duration as tech 1 shield boosters (meta level 0). Shield boost amount and capacitor need have been adjusted: The efficiency has been increased by +12.5% and the boost rate has been increased up to +12.5% for meta level 0 down to -10% for meta level 4. This ensures that the increase in boost rate and efficiency between tech 1 and tech 2 is in line with the values for armor repairers. You forgot this Caldari buff too. I know you didn't put it like this, but who in his right mind used T1 shield boosters anyway? The T2 versions are cheap, have low skill requirements and have just been a lot better. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.

Suitonia Gallente interimo A.F.K	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:05:00 - [61] I know, but it's still a general buff (Albiet a bit useless for t2 capable pilots), and not only towards Caldari of course, Low SP minmatar shield tankers will also benefit. I was generally trying to make fun of the OP, by adding another 'caldari buff' to his list :D. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Plaetean Stop bloody crying and just play the game. Id like to lock your char so he can only fly omen and apoc for a month. Then you show up on forums say they suck. Then Ill say "Stop bloody crying and just play the game". Maybe a quote is in order: -Its easy to be brave behind castle walls
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Suitonia I know, but it's still a general buff (Albiet a bit useless for t2 capable pilots), and not only towards Caldari of course, Low SP minmatar shield tankers will also benefit. I was generally trying to make fun of the OP, by adding another 'caldari buff' to his list :D. It's a nerf to best named as well which is imo more important than the t1 / low meta shield boosters.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:57:00 - [64] Originally by: Brodde Dim Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:33 Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:00 Fellow contenders, we can finally give you the preliminary score from the last forum whining contest. To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight. While we are still counting points, the results so far are: Caldari = +14 Minmatar = 0 Amarr = -5 Gallente = -15 And while the complete list of wins and losses would be to long for one post, I will just point out the ones that actually does matter to the final score. (Only nerfs/boosts where the ships role (bonuses) are affected, and general changes that affect most ships). Gallente: Eos: - drone bay - gun slots - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing - Gang link, info superiority nerfed Myrmid: - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Ishkur - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing Dominix - scoop drone healing Vexor - scoop drone healing Ishtar - scoop drone healing Celestis - RSD efficiency Arazu - RSD efficiency Lachesis - Lachesis RSD efficiency Amarr - Tracking computers nerfed Curse: - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing + neut cap use Pilgrim - TD efficiency - drone bandwidth - scoop drone healing + neut cap use Minmatar: - Tracking computers nerfed Typhoon: + Torp damage Caldari: + ship agility to most ships Raven: + Torp damage Scorpion: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Falcon: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Rook: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Blackbird: + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Griffin + ECM efficiency + ECM cap use Nighthawk + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Vulture + Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank) Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience. The question now is; Will the up and coming Gallente whining team take the challenge and try to recover? They have made a huge improvement and shown strong will the last couple of weeks. And will Amarr finally give up? Is this post a whine? Offcourse it is. If one thing is to be learned from this next patch, it is that whining works. More forum whining will give you good stuff. And for those who dont want to whine? Tough luck. Ok, Caldari whiners, show me your flaming skills. *Edit: Added Neut cap use boost, and boosts for griffin. dude go cry somewhere else. Caldari SORELY needed some buffs, im sorry another race might actually have a chance to kill your gallente boats now. Boost The Eagle!
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:10:00 - [65] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Khes So do you mean that Caldari didn't need for example a ship agility boost and it will instead only make things unbalanced ??? I dont say anything about the changes, I just count them. Sorry, I must have missunderstood you when you said this: Originally by: Brodde Dim Instead of fine tuning, they create new imbalances.
Darahk J'olonar Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:13:00 - [66] Umm whoopedee doo! Raven gets torp boost! Now take said shield tanked raven and put it in front of a passive tanked geddon w/ MP II and conflag. Answer... dead raven. Caldari in general in PvP sucked ass and now they may actually have some ability to do something and everyone cries. The Gal nerf was coming and it is sorely overdue because any BC that can omgwtfbbqpwn most BS and under, read myrmidon, needed to be whacked a bit. The Eos nerf is fully justified and I have no problem with it. Min are fine the way they are. Amarr all we ask for is what we have been asking for forever a REAL second bonus instead of the reduced crap on lasers which should be a given on Amarr ships to begin with. Otherwise not too bad at all.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:24:00 - [67] Caldari = +4 Minmatar = 1 Amarr = -2 Gallente = -8 Gallente: - scoop drone healing (Ikshur, Vexor, Myrmidon, Dominix, Eos) - RSD Effectiveness (Celestis, Arazu, Lachesis) Eos - drone bay - gun slots - drone bandwidth - Gang link, info superiority nerfed Myrmidon - drone bandwidth Ishkur - drone bandwidth Amarr - TD efficiency (Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Curse) - scoop drone healing (Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Curse) Minmatar: Typhoon: + Torp damage Caldari: + ship agility to most ships + ECM efficiency (Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Scorpion) + ECM cap use (Kitsune, Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook, Scorpion) Raven: + Torp damage A bit more unbiased. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Plaetean Stop bloody crying and just play the game. Id like to lock your char so he can only fly omen and apoc for a month. Then you show up on forums say they suck. Then Ill say "Stop bloody crying and just play the game". Maybe a quote is in order: -Its easy to be brave behind castle walls I wouldnt mind flying an apoc tbh. 800mm AC + barrage and medium ecm drones or heavy neut+nos setup. Im gonna try it soonish ^^ _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:30:00 - [69] Caldari win hands down. And the Onyx - jeesh, nigh on unstoppable, FFA4 (cruiser ffa) on sisi is wall to wall Onyx's. Meanwhile, still waiting after 2 years are the Amarr that the devs are 'looking into'. Welcome indeed to Caldari Online. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:36:00 - [70] I love when children whine about whining. The irony is enjoyable. The OP is ridiculous. The exaggerated manner in which you attempt to present the new balance changes makes your agenda obvious. Caldari have needed many changes for a long while now... and Gallente have needed some nerfing. To be honest, the Caldari changes, while very welcome, still don't address the missile velocity issues. Regardless, continue to whine about whining. My crusade for faster missiles.

Jezala Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:51:00 - [71] OP **** up on this big time. First big mistake was treating this buff/nerf point tally crap as a zero-sum game. I don't know where you got the idea, but when you balance a design it is not a requirement (much less recommended) that you must make changes based on a "equivalent trade" principle. That's just plain ignorant to treat the buffs/nerfs in a closed system environment. Second mistake was failing to add a weighted value to each of the buffs/nerfs. Can you honestly say that that ECM cap buff is 5 times more important than the torp buff? All you're doing is skewing the numbers to make your argument appear to look legit. Third mistake was that you failed to scrub the patch notes for all direct and indirect changes that may buff/nerf each race. That's just ***** sloppy of you. Do yourself a favor and redo your data collection and analysis properly and objectively.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:05:00 - [72] Ok here is the reality of it Pre-patch: Solo PvP ranking: 1. Minmatar 2. Gallente 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Gang PVP Ranking 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Fleet PVP ranking 1. Gallente 2. Caldari 3. Minmatar 4. Amarr (this is more or less a tie between Amarr and Minmatar) After the Patch: Solo PvP ranking: 1. Minmatar 2. Gallente 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Gang PVP Ranking 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Fleet PVP ranking 1. Gallente 2. Caldari 3. Minmatar 4. Amarr Stop whining, Caldari have needed a buff since Amarr were still good! But yes, I feel sorry for the Amarr, and the tracking disrupter nerf really is rediculous, talk about adding insult to injury lol Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:10:00 - [73] Originally by: Haradgrim Ok here is the reality of it Pre-patch: Solo PvP ranking: 1. Minmatar 2. Gallente 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Erm, No. 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Amarr 4. Caldari Quote: Gang PVP Ranking 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Caldari 4. Amarr 1. Caldari 2. Amarr 3. Minmatar 4. Galante Quote: Fleet PVP ranking 1. Gallente 2. Caldari 3. Minmatar 4. Amarr (this is more or less a tie between Amarr and Minmatar) Sure... Quote: After the Patch: Solo PvP ranking: 1. Minmatar 2. Gallente 3. Caldari 4. Amarr 1. Minmatar 2. Caldari 3. Amarr 4. Gallente Quote: Gang PVP Ranking 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Caldari 4. Amarr 1. Caldari 2. Amarr 3. Minmatar 4. Gallente Quote: Fleet PVP ranking 1. Gallente 2. Caldari 3. Minmatar 4. Amarr 1. Caldari 2. Minmatar 3. Amarr 4. Gallente Much more likely. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Rudy Metallo G.H.O.S.T	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:23:00 - [74] Originally by: the thorn Edited by: the thorn on 29/11/2007 08:06:54 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Don't use multispecs. blackbird with 3 multispec jammers is not cap stable blackbird with 4 racial jammers is not cap stable (using the goodol All level V) (nothing else, you dont have slots for cap mods anyway.) Try 2 Multispecs and a Racial. Or hell, get creative and have a cap transfer ship right next to you (Augoror is a cheap and easy-to-use one I can think of) --
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:42:00 - [75] Originally by: Liang Nuren LOTS OF QUOTE STUFF I'll concede your point about Caldari being the worst at solo combat pre-patch, that was really just a shot at Amarr (). So what you are saying is that post-patch: Caldari have a better solo-pvp ship than the Domi (amarr too for that matter according to your list) Caldari have a ship(s) you feel is/are better than the Vaga or Sabre, and to a lesser extent mega, deimos, domi, etc in a small gang? Somehow your believe that the mega and hyperion will make worse fleet snipers than laser boats, or that the tracking nerf didnt effect the rokh..... at least the mega has a damage and tracking bonus which will reduce the impact of the changes..... These changes have enabled Caldari to be more than the cannon fodder they have been for quite some time. I do agree however that Amarr got nerfed when they didnt need it. Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:45:00 - [76] Sucks to be Gallente, and the best bit is now your ships are baby blue OP and his supporters need to stop crying because every ship they have is no longer at the top of its class. The Amarr have it worse than Gallente talk about kicking someone when their down. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:48:00 - [77] Woot! Caldari pwns you allzorz!!! ---------------------------------- I post therefore I am bored at work.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:53:00 - [78] Originally by: OOOSOOO Woot! Caldari pwns you allzorz!!! All yea bow down to the floating head of wisdom! Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:54:00 - [79] Now that I think about it, I can't believe the irony of Gallente Pilots posting ZOMGZ CALDARI ARE LIKE WTFPWN AT PVP! NERF CALDARI! Welcome Gallente players to our world! lol Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:55:00 - [80] Yes yes, I'm sure all the gallente are sad that we're moving away from "Gallente Online". Really, gallente got handed far more nerfs than caldari did buffs, and that's why you're upset.

Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:57:00 - [81] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/11/2007 21:58:33 Originally by: OOOSOOO Woot! Caldari pwns you allzorz!!! You're a floating head. On topic: Caldari are going to just OMGWHY!1WTFPWNOOOO!!1!BBQ!!1 EVERYTHING according to the score we just got from the OP . /in Eric Cartman's voice/ Sweet. /end/ One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:05:00 - [82] Originally by: Ulstan Yes yes, I'm sure all the gallente are sad that we're moving away from "Gallente Online". Really, gallente got handed far more nerfs than caldari did buffs, and that's why you're upset. Yeah, I think "we're" all more upset by the nerfs than the Caldari buffs. ;-) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:31:00 - [83] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 29/11/2007 22:32:47 Woo, ecm is slightly more effective and the 1% of raven pilots that use torps in pvp (or use the raven in pvp at all) will now do dps on par with other gank ships. Also, op forgot to add '-1' to caldari for losing easy-pveing, a fact that many a carebear still whine about. Not trying to start a cruisemissle-pve-r rant The gal nerfs were light ('cept the Eos, roffle) and needed in my opinion, and I've never viewed Amarr as being that far behind anyone; lasers have always been the coolest weapon and the Amarr ships are just pretty I put scoop-deploy nerf into the "fix" bin simply because nearly every pvp ship relys on drones in one way or another.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Sucks to be Gallente, and the best bit is now your ships are baby blue OP and his supporters need to stop crying because every ship they have is no longer at the top of its class. The Amarr have it worse than Gallente talk about kicking someone when their down. You are assuming that I fly mostly gallente ships. Wich isnt true, I fly mostly amarr and caldari. This is beside the point though, the first post is not about the ships, it is about whining, and when it results in over zealous balancing actions. And the blue gallente T1 scheme is a lot better than the rust colored caldari T2 =)
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:07:00 - [85] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Paulo Damarr Sucks to be Gallente, and the best bit is now your ships are baby blue OP and his supporters need to stop crying because every ship they have is no longer at the top of its class. The Amarr have it worse than Gallente talk about kicking someone when their down. You are assuming that I fly mostly gallente ships. Wich isnt true, I fly mostly amarr and caldari. This is beside the point though, the first post is not about the ships, it is about whining, and when it results in over zealous balancing actions. And the blue gallente T1 scheme is a lot better than the rust colored caldari T2 =) Yet another nerf to Caldari, sigh I want baby blue colored ships damn it.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:20:00 - [86] Originally by: Brodde Dim You are assuming that I fly mostly gallente ships. Wich isnt true, I fly mostly amarr and caldari. This is beside the point though, the first post is not about the ships, it is about whining, and when it results in over zealous balancing actions. And the blue gallente T1 scheme is a lot better than the rust colored caldari T2 =) If your so concerned about balance the first thing you need to do is understand that one items boost is not another items nerf. The second thing you need to do is look at the wider picture and not just your own modified toys, for example the drone scoop nerf affects all the races not just the Gallente and it can be argued that the Gallente drone ships suffer less than other races ships because they can carry spares and its the same with RSDs every race is using them so they are all affected, it does hit the Gallente recons more but at least your EW module has consistent effects that can relied on to do what the specs say every time the Caldari ECM is still chance based and next to useless on the unbonused ships where as RSDs still may have some use. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:38:00 - [87] Originally by: Paulo Damarr If your so concerned about balance the first thing you need to do is understand that one items boost is not another items nerf. The second thing you need to do is look at the wider picture and not just your own modified toys, for example the drone scoop nerf affects all the races not just the Gallente and it can be argued that the Gallente drone ships suffer less than other races ships because they can carry spares and its the same with RSDs every race is using them so they are all affected, it does hit the Gallente recons more but at least your EW module has consistent effects that can relied on to do what the specs say every time the Caldari ECM is still chance based and next to useless on the unbonused ships where as RSDs still may have some use. Haha, thank you for your thoughts, but you havent read anything have you? The thread isnt about balance. I have not compared the ships to each other, or even the changes to eachother. It was about how much is done at once. The point was whining and overcompensation. One items boost could make another item less usefull. But in this case it is 1 kind of EW that gets boosted, while 2 other gets a huge nerf. The original list does not include every ship that is affected, because since every race use drones and RSD, it will even out. The list only includes ship that gets hit harder since they are specialized in it. Quote: at least your EW module has consistent effects that can relied on to do what the specs say every time the Caldari ECM is still chance based and next to useless on the unbonused ships where as RSDs still may have some use. If it isnt on a specialized ship it is not a gallente module. The only time when race matters to EW is when they have a bonus for it on their ships. And to a limited effect when it only works on certain setups like TDs. And why did you quote me saying that I usually dont fly gallente ships, and then reply with "your gallente toys" =)
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:10:00 - [88] Aside from the Eos getting it's balls chopped off, I don't see Gallente being dethroned by Caldari in pvp. TBH Caldari needed a little something. I'm more upset about the TC, SB, and TD nerfs. Tracking Comps and Sensor Boosters were fine. CCP are "balancing" fleet warfare by nerfing mods that were never overpowered in other situations (PVE, small gang warfare). And the TD nerf... wtf? When the hell EVER were Tracking Disruptors overpowered??? I just don't understand that one. As for damps... yeah they needed to be nudged down a bit. But damps were the only thing keeping the Curse alive. Not sure what I'll do with my favorite recon now.
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:18:00 - [89] Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 30/11/2007 00:21:01 Originally by: Brodde Dim To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight. Thats comical. The Amarr B-team is a better whine squad than the Caldari A-team. Gallente has put together an impressive whine squad this last patch too. I'm looking forward to future forum whinefests. Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Brodde Dim Haha, thank you for your thoughts, but you havent read anything have you? Its you that hasn't read anything, check this:- Originally by: Brodde Dim And why did you quote me saying that I usually dont fly gallente ships, and then reply with "your gallente toys" In fact I posted "you need to do is look at the wider picture and not just your own modified toys" Originally by: Brodde Dim The thread isnt about balance. Really? what does this mean then? Originally by: Brodde Dim when it results in over zealous balancing actions. Originally by: Brodde Dim The original list does not include every ship that is affected, because since every race use drones and RSD, it will even out. ) I'm missing the part where a biased and lopsided set of bunkum statistics that is little more than a poor attempt to justify your "Caldari online" rant evens itself out. You even sum your own thread up perfectly, Originally by: Brodde Dim it is about whining twice Originally by: Brodde Dim The point was whining The amount of changes to a race is irrelevant its the actual changes themselves and how they fit into the larger picture. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time

madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:37:00 - [91] Edited by: madaluap on 30/11/2007 00:39:05 Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Liang Nuren LOTS OF QUOTE STUFF I'll concede your point about Caldari being the worst at solo combat pre-patch, that was really just a shot at Amarr (). So what you are saying is that post-patch: Caldari have a better solo-pvp ship than the Domi (amarr too for that matter according to your list) Caldari have a ship(s) you feel is/are better than the Vaga or Sabre, and to a lesser extent mega, deimos, domi, etc in a small gang? Somehow your believe that the mega and hyperion will make worse fleet snipers than laser boats, or that the tracking nerf didnt effect the rokh..... at least the mega has a damage and tracking bonus which will reduce the impact of the changes..... These changes have enabled Caldari to be more than the cannon fodder they have been for quite some time. I do agree however that Amarr got nerfed when they didnt need it. Im gonna bother with this post tommorow, but ill give you some hints: Solo pvp in a bs? Longest range bs with tracking comps and sensorboosters requiring scripts? ECM boost and ECM scorpion boost, while only valuable EW besides ECM is nerfed? Damageboost to the raven? Agility boost to caldari? Fullout droneboat nerf? Shortrange crapboats being outdamaged bigtime, while keeping ca****ues? (in situations where you dont drop out 2 km from your target each time, also known as the non-EFT world) I couldnt care less, but that list you posted before was way, way off. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:52:00 - [92] Actually, what this post has proven, is pretty interesting. 20% of the replies actually read the op. Half of these read the replies, and a fraction of those understood the point of it. The point of op was not that caldari needed or didn't need a boost. It's the magnitude. Yes, caldari needed a boost, and believe it or not, so did minmatar, gallente and amarr. Gallente needed a nerf, so did caldari, minmatar and amarr(actually not so sure about amarr, but... whatever). And seems few here even comprehend what balance even means. Yes, changing a mod affects the viability of other mods. Add to one scale or deduct from another, balance will be shifted the same way. And as such most of the changes can be considered affecting everyone, but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente... my god. If two men are using crutches, one due to a sprained ankle with a single crutch and the other's an amuptee with two, will the amputee suffer less from lesser quality crutches as he's got two? Perhaps it's time to stop jumping to conclusions that everyone is after an easier time, better ships for themselves and jumps to the boards as to whine everytime they lose? How about... reading, comprehending or perhaps even trying both? Postcount: 507269
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:14:00 - [93] Originally by: NoNah The point of op was not that caldari needed or didn't need a boost. It's the magnitude. And that magnitude was terribly misrepresented in the OP by counting... well... something strange. Originally by: NoNah If two men are using crutches, one due to a sprained ankle with a single crutch and the other's an amuptee with two, will the amputee suffer less from lesser quality crutches as he's got two? Not everything that is lopsided is necessarily a comparison. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:34:00 - [94] Originally by: NoNah Stuffs Valid but not so much. Caldari got a few things in this patch and it doesn't amount to as much as everyone thinks. It's not really fair to say that one nerf boosts Caldari as a whole. The rook won't be more effective just because the Gal recon got nerfed, that doesn't make sense. You could argue that the Rook is now more effective THAN the Gal recons, but the rook itself is unchanged (aside from the added lowslot to bring it to par with the changed falcon). The falcon, bb, scorp, were fixed in my eyes. I hated flying the falcon simply because it's chance to jam anything bigger than a cruiser was laughable, even with every slot geared towards the role. The bonus boost was a FIX, not a buff. The drone scoop redeploy was not a nerf to Gal. It was a unintended exploit that was left unchanged for some time. It does not effect Gal any more than any race in a reasonable comparision. It is now easier to cripple a droneboat yes, but it is now easier to cripple every ships DPS in the same way, not to mention the drone boats will now have plenty of extras. One could even argue that it effects the drone boats less than the average ship. Again, this was not a nerf. It fixed something that was unintentially added to the gameplay. What is left? ECM gets a 40% cap reduction. Not that big a deal. With decent skills a blackbird can run 5 multispecs no problem as it is (assuming its best named and not t2). This change was probably added to make it easier to use the frigate Ewar and perhaps to make MWDs run easier on falcons and rooks (the only effective not-chanced-based way of living in said ships; all slots are dedicated to curb the crippled Ewar module). Torps were increased in dps but decreased in range. It can easily be argued that this cancaled itself out. We will lose effectivness in pve but gain miles in pvp, something Caldari needed in terms of a dps ship. You also pretty much need a TP to hit a non-moving BS for full damage, assuming it isn't using anything that increases sig radius. Increases agility. A random boost that really makes a difference. Caldari were the slowest, fatting, and agile-less ships in game, and now they turn the fastest. Woo. Caldari nerfs include the flycatcher speed. It was already the slowest, now it's speed will rival the Drakes. Our railgun users are hurt from the same changes as any other ship, and believe it or not we also use sensorboosters. One could argue, as so many others do about other points, that a nerf to tracking distrubters also nerfs Caldari missle users. Ships will now fit these less often, making them fit modules that will actually work against Caldari missleboats (and drone users). More ravens indirectly means more EM weaknesses, a silent boost to Amarr. This is by no means a patch geared directly at Caldari. Many of the whines target fixes that effect every race. I do agree that the Eos was nerfed to hell, and damps need to be fixed for the dedicated ships. These fixes to Caldari and exactly the same things people are complaining about for Gal. Dedicated ship boosts and DPS boosts (Drone bandwidth = less DPS for the big hitters prepatch) To many people look at the races and not the individual ships. How is a boost to the Falcon itself a boost to Caldari? No other ship in the race benefits from this boost, and training a cruiser skill to 5 is by no means a lifetime commitment. Things such as agility boosts help Caldari as a whole, and it is fair to say this boosts Caldari. The torp boost is not a boost to Caldari, it only helps 2 of their ships and one from the Minmitars. (Zomg Minmitar boost!?!?) Originally by: NoNah but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente False logic. Gal are effected in the same way as Caldari. The ships you are looking for are "drone boats". Even if they are Gal in nature, there are Gal ships that use drones in the same way as Caldari.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:36:00 - [95] Originally by: Incantare Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs? It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue. Many of the Gallente nerfs were much needed, some less so. In short: shut up. Yah, look under that race under your name...you have a very neutral point of view, don't you?
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:51:00 - [96] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 30/11/2007 02:53:36 Originally by: Incantare Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs? Of course. Best in PvE and not good in PvP just isn't balanced. Best in PvE and bearable to brute in PvP is much better. I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes. Now players will not only create tons of Achura chars and/or grind L4's in Raven/CNR/Golem. No, in addition to Crows we will see tons of Ravens in PvP. Probably also even more Drakes. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 03:14:00 - [97] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Now players will not only create tons of Achura chars and/or grind L4's in Raven/CNR/Golem. No, in addition to Crows we will see tons of Ravens in PvP. Probably also even more Drakes. yeah like you see only caldari ships pvping
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.30 03:29:00 - [98] Originally by: Tarron Sarek I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes. That is going to happen in Trinity, the reduced torp range will make them useless for missions. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:37:00 - [99] Originally by: Tarron Sarek I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes. Are you familiar with the torpedo changes? Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
MasterDecoy Gallente Mass Impetus	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:15:00 - [100] + thorax cap use bonus change Originally by: Evilempire1 good, im pentitioning you for slandering.

Khes	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:51:00 - [101] Edited by: Khes on 30/11/2007 07:52:04 Originally by: Tarron Sarek . I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes. I say that the torp range reduction is reducing the PvE effectiveness. Edit: yes, I now noticed that this was allready answered, sorry
bellass	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:08:00 - [102] i have different views on the scoring but agree in general. gallente had two of their unbalanced ships corrected and an exploit removed. turrets of all types took a large nerf. and caldari, the most popular race, got more boosting increasing their imbalance. it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp, they do a huge amount of damage consistently with little impact from movement except in extreme cases of very fast ships. the main point though is that this will only add to the numbers joining the caldari online ranks and make any attempt to balance this in the future impossible by ccp for fear of losing their fastest growing client base.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Yah, look under that race under your name...you have a very neutral point of view, don't you? I chose Caldari initially but that doesn't mean much. I am blaster specced and the ships I fly the most are the Thorax and Myrm -these nerfs will affect me directly but that doesn't change my opinions.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:43:00 - [104] Originally by: bellass i have different views on the scoring but agree in general. gallente had two of their unbalanced ships corrected and an exploit removed. turrets of all types took a large nerf. and caldari, the most popular race, got more boosting increasing their imbalance. it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp, they do a huge amount of damage consistently with little impact from movement except in extreme cases of very fast ships. the main point though is that this will only add to the numbers joining the caldari online ranks and make any attempt to balance this in the future impossible by ccp for fear of losing their fastest growing client base. Not again.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:19:00 - [105] Originally by: bellass it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp. Show us on the dolly where the nasty Drake touched you... Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:57:00 - [106] Originally by: MasterDecoy + thorax cap use bonus change Cookie for you's; Less whine More happy; People
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:14:00 - [107] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Originally by: bellass it is caldari propaganda that missiles suck in pvp. Show us on the dolly where the nasty Drake touched you... lol [Balance] The Caldari problem.
AetomHaert Mother	Posted - 2007.12.01 04:10:00 - [108] Edited by: AetomHaert Mother on 01/12/2007 04:12:02 well i dont fly gallente drone boats anyway, i like blasters. tracking computers and tracking disruptors might need a boost after this patch. i see what they were doing, ill wait to see how things pan out before i comment on the execution. also, you forgot that with all these added nerfs, sniping will now be owned by the rokh, so i am glad i can fly one too.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:41:00 - [109] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/12/2007 00:42:42 Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: Tarron Sarek I'm not against PvP boosts for Caldari ships, but.. without reduced PvE effectiveness it really is unbalanced, yes. Are you familiar with the torpedo changes? Gee, yes I am. But it's not like the Caracal isn't still the best L2, Drake still the best L3 and Raven with Cruise still the best L4 mission ship, no? Was talking about 'Caldari ships', not 'the Raven', right? Come on, show some objectiveness. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:31:00 - [110] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 03/12/2007 02:35:23 Originally by: NoNah but saying that caldari are affected directly by the drone changes as gallente Originally by: Atsuko Ratu False logic. Gal are effected in the same way as Caldari. The ships you are looking for are "drone boats". Even if they are Gal in nature, there are Gal ships that use drones in the same way as Caldari. It's not necessarily an entirely false logic. There are two issues with it though: it's referred to in extremes, and it's often misleadingly cross-referenced by most posters at their own discretion or when it suits them. So i would say that both of you have a point, i don't discredit Nonah's point about Gallente being generally more drone-oriented and would thus suffer slightly more should drones themselves become impoverished (do not mistake that for fixing scoop-exploits though). It's a question of being able to assume both aspects though and not put so much value into either of them that you become blind of the other: Certain changes impact differently on the races depending on how reliant they are on them, but at the same time they usually also affect all races at least to a certain degree. What Nonah doesn't do however is aknowledge that in return to Caldari. If Gallente is the drone race above all, then Caldari are the sniper race bar none. Additionally, we have alot of ships whose primary (and sometimes only role) is not sniping alone, but also sniping smaller and mobile targets (support-sniping, or being the 'ass' as someone else so promptly put it). What do you think the changes to sensors and tracking computers do for those ships? Ranged ships also suffer quite alot from the damp nerf (even if i stem in with the general consensus that the module was too good, and now the only things left to deal with are the webs and scrams ). There are alot of Caldari ships that effectively suffer from this patch, and by Nonah's principle suffer more than other. All our ships dedicated to sniping, and especially all our ships dedicated to small-scale sniping. This while you can truthfully argue (by Atsuko's principle) that all ships can snipe and will get hurt by the changes, Caldari have more ships that excel in the role and some ships that don't have much other prominent roles outside of that. If Gallente is the drone race, then Caldari is equally the sniping race. So if you wish to argue a coin, be fair and honest enough to argue both sides of the coin. I'm sure there are alot of Eagle pilots around who are not thrilled with the proposed changes. I know that i am definately not considering the Trinity patch a buff for my skills invested in long-range warfare on Caldari ships.

Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.12.03 03:42:00 - [111] I reckon I'll be using Jav torps now instead of cruise on my ravens. Anyone know offhand the range of javs with maxed skills from a Raven? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes


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