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Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:26:00 - [2] kinda agree :) this is not a whine from me.... i even acctually like it on my armor tanked ships :) helsp me get the repper comeing to get reps in as soon as i hit armor. but i wouldnt mind it if it was changed
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:46:00 - [3] Want some cheese to that whine? The only ones that would be affected by your nerf would be armor tanks btw as passive shield tanks regen to over 90% when just warping away from and back to their previous position. You should have said instant cap recharge if you want to annoy those.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:56:00 - [4] Very good point! Signed _______________
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing. Seriously, now, you can't claim it's the same thing, or people could counter-argument that it's not alright that you can scoop drones 30 seconds after the last shot they fired, since it's out of line with docking mechanics Scoop & redeploy got fixed, yes. It was a long time till that got fixed, though...
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:49:00 - [6] The station docking ports i would assume automatically recharge anything energy based, in space your own ship, drones are scoop deployed for aggression tactics. I think the shield recharge from docking isnt an exploit every ship enjoys this benefit not just caldari. If your a armour tanker wanting armour repaired fit a bloody armour repper - bloody plate lame.. ------ [Video] Forever Pirate 4
NateX Singularity. Talon Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:25:00 - [7] The option to recharge the shield on your drone in exchange for cap? /yes please
Fenren	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:33:00 - [8] Originally by: NateX The option to recharge the shield on your drone in exchange for cap? /yes please shield transporters? they do exactley that... and is a high slot module
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:41:00 - [9] Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing. its not even remotely the same thing, station=big, spaceships=not as big. something big is likely to have facilities on hand to pump energy into a ship, recharging its shield and cap. something not as big, is not (unless you fit a shield transfer to your ship as someone else suggested here) your overpowered *****mobiles have been balanced. get over it. stop crying.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Fenren Originally by: NateX The option to recharge the shield on your drone in exchange for cap? /yes please shield transporters? they do exactley that... and is a high slot module Stop giving away secrets! People are not supposed to know about drone-tanking. ============================================
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:41:00 - [11] nah they want their 'vulnerable dps' to be invulnerable again :p
Minmatar Citizen 4521577	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Shiken Kan nah they want their 'vulnerable dps' to be invulnerable again :p Heh heh.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Shiken Kan nah they want their 'vulnerable dps' to be invulnerable again :p heh heh ;)
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:09:00 - [14] Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 15:15:42 Originally by: Shiken Kan nah they want their 'vulnerable dps' to be invulnerable again :p Stop changing the subject. I am not whining about the drone balance, I'm complaining about shield tanks being unfairly advantaged by having instant recharge when they dock/undock. Why should shield tankers get this free benefit, of having their main defense recharge instantly, when armor tankers have to pay to regain their defense or have to undock and manually repair? Is it not enough imba that shields recharge passively, while us armor tankers relie heavily on cap for repairs? doesn't seem balanced to me.
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Avataris Stop changing the subject. I am not whining about the drone balance, I'm complaining about shield tanks being unfairly advantaged by having instant recharge when they dock/undock. lying does not suit you sir. you are not complaning about anything valid. you are angry with the changes to drones, and now you are randomly lashing out against a well established mechanic that no one seems ot have a problem with, and that has a valid reason for its existance. so talking about drones here is just as on the subject as your ridiculous "exploit" of shield recharge in stations. (i'm gonna go out on a limb here andassume you didn't feel the myrm was unbalanced, or the eos, or the whole drone rescoop mechanic?)
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:22:00 - [16] Edited by: N1fty on 29/11/2007 15:22:07 Originally by: Avataris Is it not enough imba that shields recharge passively, while us armor tankers relie heavily on cap for repairs? doesn't seem balanced to me. But thats the whole point. Shields are NOT Armour, why should they behaive the same?! Its this kind of thinking that will see the only ship ingame being a Raven. All other ships having been removed because of imbalance compared to eachother. Its rock, paper, scissors mate. Its not supposed to be balanced. ============================================
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 15:15:42 Originally by: Shiken Kan nah they want their 'vulnerable dps' to be invulnerable again :p Stop changing the subject. I am not whining about the drone balance, I'm complaining about shield tanks being unfairly advantaged by having instant recharge when they dock/undock. Why should shield tankers get this free benefit, of having their main defense recharge instantly, when armor tankers have to pay to regain their defense or have to undock and manually repair? Is it not enough imba that shields recharge passively, while us armor tankers relie heavily on cap for repairs? doesn't seem balanced to me. And I want instant shield buuf from gang skills. Why armor tankers can have them all with better overall resist, passive omni hardeners? I have to wait (or shieldboost) after every jump and all this in ship with worst capacitor in class? This is unfair and should be balanced/nerfed/unifed.
ragupasta Amarr Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:47:00 - [18] I armour tank, I run a tech 2 repper. no probs for me. Shields are supposed to be an energy surrounding your ship, which cap would in theory re-fuel it, hence repair, as ther is nothing to damage, its just a waist of energy. Blasted armour does get damaged, and would take a skilled person or repper to repair. Seems dead fair to me.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:55:00 - [19] Originally by: ragupasta I armour tank, I run a tech 2 repper. no probs for me. Shields are supposed to be an energy surrounding your ship, which cap would in theory re-fuel it, hence repair, as ther is nothing to damage, its just a waist of energy. Blasted armour does get damaged, and would take a skilled person or repper to repair. Seems dead fair to me. Ok then its a deal. Ill need to rep my bonused armour and you get no shield recharge in station.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:56:00 - [20] Erm, unless somethings changed you do require a station to dock in. They don't follow you around... [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Eneela M	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:15:00 - [21] i agree with the OP, it's got nothing to do with pseudo science it's to do with game balance. Multiple undock station hugging can be a problem, at least make it a payable fix like armor repair so it costs you if you want to play at crappy tactics.
Suitonia Gallente interimo A.F.K	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Suitonia on 29/11/2007 16:19:57 Edited by: Suitonia on 29/11/2007 16:19:25 Originally by: Fenren Originally by: NateX The option to recharge the shield on your drone in exchange for cap? /yes please shield transporters? they do exactley that... and is a high slot module Yes, and it also has less than 10km range, and they can't be repaired whilst inside the drone bay, meaning they have to be out and vulnable to get repped anyway. You can't repair them while you're being ECM'd either. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Mudkest Ekliptika Engineers Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:25:00 - [23] same goes for cap then? ----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs! I want my hello-kitty-kessie! For your safety do not destroy vital testing apparatus
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Mudkest same goes for cap then? I don't see why not. If it stops people station hugging and playing the dock/undock game at 0 cost to themselves, without having to rep their shields or recharge their cap. I think its a good plan.
TimMc Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:50:00 - [25] Since Caldari seem to now have ships half decent in PvP, there is no more need for them to rape-camp stations for free dock-undock tanks. So I agree with original post, the shields should recharge normally while docked. Or maybe you can pay for them to be charged, since it would cost the station capacitor same as an armour repair.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:49:00 - [26] Ok let's do this :D and don't forget to loose lock when scooping drones unless ofc you have an aggro countdown in which case you simply can't. Also ships with deployed drones should be immobile to bring them in line with docked ships for no apparent reason but to **** off drone users
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:01:00 - [27] Quote: Stop changing the subject. I am not whining about the drone balance, I'm complaining about shield tanks being unfairly advantaged by having instant recharge when they dock/undock. Why should shield tankers get this free benefit, of having their main defense recharge instantly, when armor tankers have to pay to regain their defense or have to undock and manually repair? Is it not enough imba that shields recharge passively, while us armor tankers relie heavily on cap for repairs? doesn't seem balanced to me. I hope your aware that you can passive shield tank as well. No one is stopping you. Do you think its imba that a passive tanked drake does 200 dps, and cannot tackle anything? stop crying dude seriously, if you think the passive shield tank is so uber go train one yourself. Boost The Eagle!
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:01:00 - [28] Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 18:02:42 Originally by: Shiken Kan Ok let's do this :D and don't forget to loose lock when scooping drones unless ofc you have an aggro countdown in which case you simply can't. Also ships with deployed drones should be immobile to bring them in line with docked ships for no apparent reason but to **** off drone users Way to go off topic! We're not talking about drones, we're talking about the imbalance presented by shields recharging to full instantly when a ship docks. I know this is hard to swallow for people who've been abusing this for the last few years, but there is no reason why a shield ship should get a complete recharge of its primary defensive system, for free I might add, when armor ships have to pay to have theirs topped up or have to undock to repair manually. I have even agreed that the capacitor should not be recharged either when a ship docks/undocks (gasp but Avataris.. that suggestion is a nerf to everyone!) meaning you either pay, or undock and use cap booster charges. You shield tankers have been getting for free (instantly) what us armor tankers have been paying for since the beginning. No wonder then that almost every station hugger I see is in a drake/vulture/nighthawk. Maybe once you actually need to pay for your repairs we will see some changes.
Iota Belisarius Ion Corp. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:23:00 - [29] You create a topic called "You nerfed scoop redeploy" and then start ranting about the imbalance of passive shield tankers and you say WE'RE off topic? That's awesome logic... --------------------- Your sig is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting. -Tirg Sig jacked and nerfed in one day, just my luck.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:25:00 - [30] I know you started this as a whine, but thats a awesome idea! Stop insta shieldrecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Stop insta caprecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Change undock-docktimer to 1 minute, instead of 30 sec Good idea _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Gsharp	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:48:00 - [31] Edited by: Gsharp on 29/11/2007 18:48:29 I am a new player - that being stated - I thought that the advantage to Armor tanking is that it costs less power per point of armor being tanked versus a shield tanker. So that is a reason to select armor tanking over shield tanking. That would be weighed against using shield tanking where you have the option to go and redock to gain shields. They both have an advantage.
FawKa Gallente x13	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:54:00 - [32] God you hit it right on ! Freaking awsome Drone HP bonus plesae Drone dmg mods please Now CCP,kthxbuy - - - Signature - - - For Sisi; Running: 8800 GTX 640mb, 4 GB ram, quad core Q6600, creative x-fi, ASUS striker exstreme MB, windows vista, 1680x1050 fullscreen,
Augeas	Posted - 2007.11.29 18:58:00 - [33] Quote: Erm, unless somethings changed you do require a station to dock in. They don't follow you around... Aha. Not only will Trinity see the introduction of mobile stations that follow Caldari ships around, but those pilots will be able to dock at them without an aggression timer and, whilst docked, their enemy will remain scrammed and under missile fire!
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:20:00 - [34] Edited by: Angel DeMorphis on 29/11/2007 19:21:11 Originally by: Augeas Quote: Erm, unless somethings changed you do require a station to dock in. They don't follow you around... Aha. Not only will Trinity see the introduction of mobile stations that follow Caldari ships around, but those pilots will be able to dock at them without an aggression timer and, whilst docked, their enemy will remain scrammed and under missile fire! Well, close. Since we're comparing it to drones, it's really the station that would be controlled by the player, and they send out little Drakes to bite at their enemy... So, really, I'm not understanding this thread. Caldari ship = Drone how? So a shield tanker gets his tank recharged when docking. If you think that's vastly superior, you fly it and try it in battle. Don't forget if you actually want to try to tackle your target you'll need a gang or need to sacrifice your tank. But apparently the station recharge thing makes shield tankers uber PvPers, so go ahead and get into it. And while you're at it, I hope you notice the sarcasm dripping through the whole last paragraph. But while we're making shield tanking = armor tanking inside the station, let's make it equal outside, too. Let's let the shield tankers be able to fit cap rechargers and/or cap boosters in the low slots, along with MWDs, webifiers, and scramblers, because if they want to keep an active tank alive and PvP as easily as an armor tanker does they'll need that. Congrats. All tanking has just become equal in Eve, the only difference being what line of the HUD things appear at. Oh, I'm sorry, but you were really just trying to equate a couple hundred thousand ISK piece of equipment to a couple hundred million ISK piece, an AI controlled piece of equipment to a player controlled one. Get over your drone and STFU.
Joza Gulikoza	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:55:00 - [35] Originally by: August Personage Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing. its not even remotely the same thing, station=big, spaceships=not as big. something big is likely to have facilities on hand to pump energy into a ship, recharging its shield and cap. something not as big, is not (unless you fit a shield transfer to your ship as someone else suggested here) your overpowered *****mobiles have been balanced. get over it. stop crying. One might wonder why that facility inside those big stations doesn't also repair your armor while we're at it?
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Edited by: Angel DeMorphis on 29/11/2007 19:21:11 stuff. You've clearly missed the point entirely. Everything in Eve has a price, whether it be time, or ISK, or both. The fact that shields and cap are recharged when you dock/undock means there is no cost associated with it, its free, apart from the short space of time it takes to do this. If cap/shields recharged at their natural rates inside the station, you would then have a choice: you can pay to fill up, undock and boost, or wait until the natural recharge was finished. Tactically this would be more interesting. It would impact on people who like to play dock/undock games. It would create a cost. I've not said a word about the drone changes, the only comparison I have made is that both have instant recharge of shields, and one is being changed. What I have suggested impacts on armor tankers too. Thank you for your comments.
Jezala Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:00:00 - [37] You know who really gets screwed by this? It's not the Gallente nor any of the drone boats. It's not your PvPers either. Mission runners and belt ratters are going to get kicked in the nuts here and they don't realize it yet. The real impact of the change is going to be felt across all races and probably more so by those that don't have a large drone bay or those that can't send out multiple drone waves.
TimMc Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:29:00 - [38] Originally by: madaluap I know you started this as a whine, but thats a awesome idea! Stop insta shieldrecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Stop insta caprecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Change undock-docktimer to 1 minute, instead of 30 sec Good idea /signed there mate
Dark Flare Caldari StateCorp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:37:00 - [39] This idea is daft. Ships are not drones. You don't have to wait 30seconds to scoop drones in a fight. It's not like anyone can shoot at you til he gets low on shield, then dock and undock again is it?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Jezala You know who really gets screwed by this? It's not the Gallente nor any of the drone boats. It's not your PvPers either. Mission runners and belt ratters are going to get kicked in the nuts here and they don't realize it yet. The real impact of the change is going to be felt across all races and probably more so by those that don't have a large drone bay or those that can't send out multiple drone waves. And by those that don't have big wallets. Every T2 drone lost is the equivalent of a T2 weapon in cost, but it is way easier to loose (even more after Trinity) and less effective.
Connor Banks Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:05:00 - [41] Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 18:39:05 First read this: This thread is not a drone whine. Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing. Your logic fails. Please read the explanation below. To instantly recharge drones when scooped you need energy. That energy would obviously come from the ship itself. So, logically, drones cannot recharge instantly when scooped without draining the ship on cap. However, upon docking to a station with your ship, the drones should recharge their shields due to the assumably free available power similarly to the ship shields. Shields correspond to a purely energetic field surroudong the ship while armour is a combination of energy and solid plates mounted on the ship. So, armour repair not only needs capacitor but also mending of the plates to recharge. Thus, upon docking with a damaged ship only shields get recharged for free. Do you follow? Case solved. You are dismissed. Now go back and play...
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Fenren Originally by: NateX The option to recharge the shield on your drone in exchange for cap? /yes please shield transporters? they do exactley that... and is a high slot module Now maybe a high slot module that can do it while your drones are in the bay? Without the whole targeting mess. I'd buy one of those. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Heretic Army The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:43:00 - [43] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: madaluap I know you started this as a whine, but thats a awesome idea! Stop insta shieldrecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Stop insta caprecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Change undock-docktimer to 1 minute, instead of 30 sec Good idea /signed there mate /thirded --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Connor Banks Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 18:39:05 First read this: This thread is not a drone whine. ------------------------------------------------------ Your logic fails. Please read the explanation below. To instantly recharge drones when scooped you need energy. That energy would obviously come from the ship itself. So, logically, drones cannot recharge instantly when scooped without draining the ship on cap. However, upon docking to a station with your ship, the drones should recharge their shields due to the assumably free available power similarly to the ship shields. Shields correspond to a purely energetic field surroudong the ship while armour is a combination of energy and solid plates mounted on the ship. So, armour repair not only needs capacitor but also mending of the plates to recharge. Thus, upon docking with a damaged ship only shields get recharged for free. Do you follow? Case solved. You are dismissed. Now go back and play... Spare me the pseudo-science. What we are talking about is game mechanics. I realise there will be resistance from people who enjoy playing lamer dock/undock games, abusing the current inconsistency that shields and cap recharge instantly when a ship docks/undocks. Ofcourse you will complain, you've been getting something free - why should you pay for it now? But in the interest of balance and fairness, it makes sense that there should be a cost connected to dock/undock tactics, that cost should be ISK or time. As explained earlier there is currently no cost. No cost = out of kilter with the rest of the game. That means its imbalanced. Stop instashield recharge (shields charge slowly when docked) Stop instacap recharge (shields charge slowly when docked) Increase dock/undock timer from 30sec to 1minute.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:29:00 - [45] I see your logic. In my mind, the simplest solution is either a) increase the time required to undock after docking to one or two minutes or b) remove the instant shield recharge and the undock timer. I prefer b) as I hate waiting to undock, and it fits with the changes to drones.
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Avataris I've not said a word about the drone changes " You nerfed scoop redeploy..." thread title. do you even read your own posts? this is quite clearly a whine about drone shield recharge being nerfed. i could make a thread called "You nerfed torp range...." and start saying blaster and projectile fall off should be reduced. but it would be obvious to everyone with half a brain that i would just be angry with the torp ranges (i'm not, 1k dps ravens ftw). in that thread i could also claim "I'M NOT TAKLKING ABOUT TORPS FFS GUYZ" but i would be, because any ******** reason i made for nerfing falloff would be based on the fact that i was disheartened with the torp changes. you have no RP basis for this change. you have no hard facts that this is destroying the game. you have your obvious anger at ccp for making your drone ships balanced and that is all.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:49:00 - [47] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 30/11/2007 09:50:53 all you whiners are an Quote: EPIC FAIL if you want to nerf shield tanking, that is nearly useless in pvp except as bait give caldari more mids for scrambler and other ewar stuff and cap like gallente and amarr ones. fitting a MWD on a shield tanked ship already cripples the tank so much and since shield tanked ships have lower cap then armor tanked there is no reason to whine. also a heavy shield tanked ships cannot stop you from warping away, if you have problems killing one just run ~~ if you cannot kill one because you suck alone, bring more friends for firepower.
Connor Banks Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Connor Banks Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 18:39:05 First read this: This thread is not a drone whine. ------------------------------------------------------ Your logic fails. Please read the explanation below. To instantly recharge drones when scooped you need energy. That energy would obviously come from the ship itself. So, logically, drones cannot recharge instantly when scooped without draining the ship on cap. However, upon docking to a station with your ship, the drones should recharge their shields due to the assumably free available power similarly to the ship shields. Shields correspond to a purely energetic field surroudong the ship while armour is a combination of energy and solid plates mounted on the ship. So, armour repair not only needs capacitor but also mending of the plates to recharge. Thus, upon docking with a damaged ship only shields get recharged for free. Do you follow? Case solved. You are dismissed. Now go back and play... Spare me the pseudo-science. What we are talking about is game mechanics. I realise there will be resistance from people who enjoy playing lamer dock/undock games, abusing the current inconsistency that shields and cap recharge instantly when a ship docks/undocks. Ofcourse you will complain, you've been getting something free - why should you pay for it now? But in the interest of balance and fairness, it makes sense that there should be a cost connected to dock/undock tactics, that cost should be ISK or time. As explained earlier there is currently no cost. No cost = out of kilter with the rest of the game. That means its imbalanced. Stop instashield recharge (shields charge slowly when docked) Stop instacap recharge (shields charge slowly when docked) Increase dock/undock timer from 30sec to 1minute. Oh, you mean like all ewar goes in mid slots same as shield tanking, that kind of balance?!? Shield and armour are two different things, no matter how you view it. Be it either pseudo-science or slotwise...take your pick. Adapt and move on dude...
Atlanton Marcus Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.30 10:03:00 - [49] Originally by: Connor Banks Your logic fails. Please read the explanation below. To instantly recharge drones when scooped you need energy. That energy would obviously come from the ship itself. So, logically, drones cannot recharge instantly when scooped without draining the ship on cap. However, upon docking to a station with your ship, the drones should recharge their shields due to the assumably free available power similarly to the ship shields. Shields correspond to a purely energetic field surroudong the ship while armour is a combination of energy and solid plates mounted on the ship. So, armour repair not only needs capacitor but also mending of the plates to recharge. Thus, upon docking with a damaged ship only shields get recharged for free. Do you follow? Case solved. You are dismissed. Now go back and play... Sorry, but your logic fails. In theory, the shield generator actively recharges itself using some of the ship's power supply, and the infinite power of the station allows it happen instantly. So basically, the shield regenerator operates off of the ship's capacitor just like an armor repairer or any other module does. Logically, since the shield regenerator can use the station assisted ship power to repair shields while docked, the armor repairer should be able to utilize that power as well.
Kirmok	Posted - 2007.11.30 11:04:00 - [50] Why cry nerf? Why not cry buff? I understand the logic of shields being fully charged upon docking, and armor not, however, to the man/woman crying for a nerf to recharging. Why not make armor recharge too? To full, upon docking? Make the only repair cost go for structure/modules. Instead of always crying foul and for nerfs, why not offer up a buff alternative? I'm caldari, but I enjoy all the aspects of eve and try to do some of everything. What ya all think of the "Kirmok Solution?"
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:03:00 - [51] You shouldnÆt make assumptions about peoples motives. Just because I have an Ishtar in my sig doesnÆt mean IÆm annoyed about the drone changes. In fact I welcome them. The Myrm and Eos were completely out of whack with other ships in their class, thereÆs no denying it. The drone scoop/redeploy gave drone ships an unfair edge in PvP. IÆm big enough and have been playing this game long enough to know when somethingÆs wrong and needs a fix. You need an RP reason before you can admit youÆre wrong? Cap and Shield are precious commodities in Eve. Cap is often referred to as life. To create cap or shield usually requires some investment, whether that investment be time (waiting for natural recharge) or ISK (cap boosters, shield mods). In fact there is even an exchange rate between cap and shields, a trade-off if you like. So why would station services be handing the stuff out for free? There is clearly profit to be made from it, and thatÆs all the reason they need. The fact that you can create both cap and shields instantly at 0 cost just by docking/undocking is clearly broken. You canÆt possibly deny that. The evidence of this broken game mechanic is everywhere. I shouldnÆt even have to explain what IÆm talking about, anyone whoÆs encountered station hugging dock/undockers (usually in shield tanking ships I might add) will know what IÆm talking about. What I am suggesting is a nerf to dock/undock tactics that will impact not only on shield tankers, but on armor tankers too. The choices are simple: Wait until natural recharge completes (a tactical delay between docking/undocking) Pay to have your shields/cap recharged (inline with having armor/hulls repaired + a new ISK sink) Refit undock and rep yourself.
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:05:00 - [52] I don't mind if shields were not insta-charged when docked as long as it still would re-charged as normal like shields do. But to take away the shield insta-charge when docking for the reason that armour or drones does not insta-charge and it would not be fair otherwise, it is just bonkers. Then you should also change HP-rate, activation cost, time, slot-placement and everything else to make shields and armour work exactly the same to be fair. But do we really want shields and armour to work exactly the same. Not me.
Odium47	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:53:00 - [53] :(( ...whinner ... muhahahahhahahahahah The station is suposed to have lots of energy and facilities, therefore should recharge shields and capacitor. End of discussion.
Dreadmuppet Four	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:59:00 - [54] oh well, looks like it back to the crap old days where everyone flies the same ships.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:01:00 - [55] WTS : Clue That is all... Welcome to EvE
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:02:00 - [56] Edited by: Avataris on 30/11/2007 14:02:23 :((...whinner ...muhahahahhahahahahah The station is suposed to have lots of energy and facilities, therefore should recharge shields and capacitor. End of discussion ---------------------- This is a non-argument. Just because thatÆs how it is doesnÆt mean itÆs right. The same argument could be used to support free instant armor rep in stations. It doesnÆt even begin to address the real issue, which is the abuse of game mechanics by people who play dock/undock games, and the fact that shield tankers can have a free instant top up of their main defensive systems, whilst armor tankers have to pay. Check your spelling. ------------------------------------- oh well, looks like it back to the crap old days where everyone flies the same ships. --------------------------------------- IÆm not proposing any changes to any ships. All IÆm proposing is a change to dock/undock mechanics to level the playing field as regards cap and shield recharging. You will still have the ability to recharge your shield and cap, but at a cost, either time or ISK. Armor will still not autoheal. ------------------------------------- WTS : ClueThat is all... ------------------------------------- WTS: Ability to communicate in sentences. I see IÆve stirred up an alt storm of dissent. Station camp much?
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:09:00 - [57] Edited by: Reacz on 30/11/2007 14:10:23 How is this inbalanced in any way what so ever? You can't dock at a station if you're aggressed and if you happen to slip through a camp and dock, you're hardly going to undock again anyway. You can however (at the moment) pull your drones in when aggressed and automatically recharge their shields, for free... Yeah, I agree, nerf station shield recharge. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:23:00 - [58] well if you are both in armor, the armor tanker has an advantage, he can rep his armor and recharge shield in the station. if you are both in shields, you can dock too before you hit armor. where is the problem ? Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:45:00 - [59] Edited by: Avataris on 30/11/2007 14:45:43 Originally by: Hugh Ruka well if you are both in armor, the armor tanker has an advantage, he can rep his armor and recharge shield in the station. if you are both in shields, you can dock too before you hit armor. where is the problem ? For a armor tanker to have his armor repaired means he needs to: 1) undock and rep (cost is time + ISK for repping modules) 2) dock & pay for repairs (cost is ISK) For a shield tanker to have his shield repaired he needs to: 1) undock and wait (cost is time) 2) undock and boost (cost is time + ISK for boosting modules) 3) dock/undock (completely free) Name me one other thing in the world of Eve that is completely free, both of time and ISK investment, which plays as instrumental a role in PvP as shield and cap recharge. This is clearly not inline with any other aspect of the game. There is the problem. Stop insta shieldrecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Stop insta caprecharge. (it will charge slowly in the station) Change undock-docktimer to 1 minute, instead of 30 sec
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:21:00 - [60] Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 30/11/2007 15:22:15 Ah, you gotta love it. Now that they think they are going to actually start losing drones (ooh vulnerable) they start whining and looking for someone to secks in the surprise. BTW, lets add docking timers to drones too :)
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:08:00 - [61] Edited by: Avataris on 30/11/2007 16:11:10 Angel, You canÆt really expect anyone to believe that changing the dock/undock mechanism = making all tanking methods equal. In fact there will be no change to the relationship between shield and armor tanking at all. What I am doing is creating choices where none exist, and creating costs where things were free û both of which are positive changes as they require people engage their brains in a new way. Yes, shield tanking has drawbacks compared to armor tanking, but drawbacks also exist the other way around. For example, I could passive tank my myrm and have a capstable tank that far outperforms my active armor tank alternative, the drawback is loosing ew mods in the midslots. That is the price I pay. Equally I could active armor tank it, have ew in mids, but my cap runs dry unless I use cap boosters, and I sure as hell canÆt tank as long. If dock/undock recharge of shields is such a fundamental perk of shield tanking, how come itÆs never been mentioned as such in shield tanking threads on this forum? I suspect itÆs because you just made it up. All I propose to change is that instead of dock/undock presto!chango! full shield and capacitor, we allow people the tactical option of deciding whether to: 1) pay for an instant recharge of cap/shield 2) wait for natural recharge of cap/shield 3) undock and boost it yourself What are you scared of? making the wrong choice?
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:03:00 - [62] Originally by: Avataris If dock/undock recharge of shields is such a fundamental perk of shield tanking, how come itÆs never been mentioned as such in shield tanking threads on this forum? I suspect itÆs because you just made it up. Actually, no. Just working off of assumptions you've already made and stated in this thread. YOU said that dock/undock mechanism gives shield tankers such an unfair tactical advantage, whereas an armor tanker has to (a) find a station with a Repair service and (b) pay for it or (c) repair out of station. If, as you say, this mechanism with the shields is so unfair to armor tankers, then what you're proposing is really to take an advantage away from shield tankers. What? The dock/undock recharge of shields is not a fundamental perk of shield tanking? It's not an advantage? Then why the heck would you care? I love picking apart forum arguments when people contradict themselves. Let's review. First post: Originally by: Avataris As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Here, in your first post, you complain that you have to repair in space or be repped by station services, but Caldari passive shield tankers have an advantage, you use the word advantage, of docking and undocking. Last post: Originally by: Avataris In fact there will be no change to the relationship between shield and armor tanking at all. If dock/undock recharge of shields is such a fundamental perk of shield tanking, how come itÆs never been mentioned as such in shield tanking threads on this forum? I suspect itÆs because you just made it up. Now, suddently, you say that the dock/undock recharge of shields isn't so great an advantage. If anyone made it up, you're just as guilty. You proposed it was an advantage in the first place, so if you want to take away an advantage of a type of tanking that already nerfs your ability to PvP somewhat, then you should also be looking at a way to make it better. Originally by: Avataris All I propose to change is that instead of dock/undock presto!chango! full shield and capacitor, we allow people the tactical option of deciding whether to: 1) pay for an instant recharge of cap/shield 2) wait for natural recharge of cap/shield 3) undock and boost it yourself What are you scared of? making the wrong choice? Scared of? Making the wrong choice? I have no idea what you're trying to do here besides trying to make me look bad. No, whatever happens in Eve, I adapt. It's how I survive. However, there was two major reasons I perfer shield tanking over armor tanking: (1) With shield tanking, especially in missions, I have more buffer when things go wrong. When my tank blows they still have to make it through armor and structure before I'm gone. (2) I don't have to pay a station to repair or sit outside and wait to repair my shields. After a fight or a mission I can come back to station, dock, and I'm ready to go. Well, also a third advantage that a shield has some natural recharge rate already, but this rate is so low without mods to help it it's not a terribly great advantage. For those two advantages I have given up: Effective solo PvP, as the shield tank mods conflict with PvP-essential mods. Therefore, while you're trying to take away one of the reasons I chose to prefer shield tanking in the first place, I was only suggesting a way, by losing that "advantage" that you clearly defined as such and so made a thread on the subject, that I should get back some of the advantage I lost by choosing shield tanking, that of being able to fit important PvP mods without sacrificing tank. Guess what? We suddenly have armor tanking nearly equaling shield tanking.
Maverick 52	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis However, there was two major reasons I perfer shield tanking over armor tanking: (1) With shield tanking, especially in missions, I have more buffer when things go wrong. When my tank blows they still have to make it through armor and structure before I'm gone. (2) I don't have to pay a station to repair or sit outside and wait to repair my shields. After a fight or a mission I can come back to station, dock, and I'm ready to go. Well, also a third advantage that a shield has some natural recharge rate already, but this rate is so low without mods to help it it's not a terribly great advantage. Uh...you just proved his point. Anyone who armor tanks can go do that same mission, but if they need to warp out, they need to spend that time repping their armor, or pay for it to be fixed, and you're sheild tank doesn't require that. This gets even better... ANY station will recharge your sheilds, where a armor tanker will have to find a repair facility if they don't have a way to repair themselves. This means any passive armor tank, or even a active when the pilot uses heat and breaks his repper, needs a repair facility, and a sheild tank just needs to dock. Also, for anyone argueing the science aspect, thats great, everyone can figure out HOW the sheild magically recharges. The thing is, if a company can charge you for a service they provided, they will do it. Every station is owned by a company, and logically they would charge to fix your ship regardless if it was armor, sheild, or hull. You need something, they can provide it but you better give them something in exchange. I guess to you guys though, science > buisness? Also explain where that energy comes from, I'm pretty sure there is some kind of cost involved in providing that energy. At the end of the day, this issue isn't that big to me, life will continue on if it's never changed. However it's a interesting perspective with all the current "balancing" that things such as this havn't been addressed. It's also interesting to see some people who likely cheered on other "balancing" ideas boo this one so badly.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:46:00 - [64] Any solo mission setup should be faster repairing their shields/armor/whatever if they don't dock. Docking only slows you down if you have the booster fitted already so it's no advantage at all. On the contrary shield tanks have to dock/refit/dock/refit if they have taken armor damage, where an armor tank just has to wait a bit. The same applies to the opposite, that's why the ones annoyed the most about that change would be the armor tanks. If you're so ****ed about station huggers that dock/undock then this won't help you in any way either. All that will change is that they don't leave the station at all and thus don't even give you the slim chance to gank them.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:06:00 - [65] Originally by: Odium47 :(( ...whinner ... muhahahahhahahahahah The station is suposed to have lots of energy and facilities, therefore should recharge shields and capacitor. End of discussion. well following the same logic since ship in inherently huge compared to the drone and has lots of energy compared to drones then the scoop redeploy trick should have been just fine
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:40:00 - [66] Originally by: Maverick 52 Uh...you just proved his point. Anyone who armor tanks can go do that same mission, but if they need to warp out, they need to spend that time repping their armor, or pay for it to be fixed, and you're sheild tank doesn't require that. I did not prove his point at all, if you've been reading. He first said that the dock/undock mechanism was an advantage, which I agreed with. Yes, I agreed that this is an advantage of shield tanking. This advantage you are noticing in this post you just made. However, as I also pointed out, I give up certain advantages by shield tanking, as well. Therefore, by the same logic, if I must also give up one of the only advantages to shield tanking, I should gain some of the advantages of armor tanking, such as being able to fit important PvP modules without hurting my tank. My point really was, yes, it is an advantage, no matter how small, but armor tanking has advantages over shield tanking as well, not least of which is fitting PvP modules without hurting tank, but also higher base resists, especially on EM. If we're going to remove an advantage for shield tank, which really hasn't proved to be overpowered or anything, then we should also either nerf armor tank, or allow a buff to shield tank. In the end, we're really just going for similarity, not balance. Am I afraid of it happening? Will I cry if it did get nerfed in this way? No. Do I think it's a stupid idea that doesn't need balancing that the OP is bringing up just because his precious drones got nerfed? Yes.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:56:00 - [67] Quote: by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? That's not by the same logic at all. You can't instantly dock/undock in combat can you?
Taran Summers The Merovingians	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:20:00 - [68] I'd agree to giving back the instant drone shield recharge if drone users have to sit through a loading screen for 10-30 seconds when they dock their drones and 10-30 seconds when they undock their drones, like shield tankers do with their ships.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:03:00 - [69] I agree that stations should not insta-rep your shields. The shields should recharge on their own via shield recharge rate. (some guy complained of "cost" of recharging the shields, to lazy to quote it) in actuality, it is the other way around the makes no sense. Energy that reps a shield or armor is pretty much free (look at the cap battery in your ship, it auto recharges itself with no magic link to a recharge facility, and this will happen forever). Logically, a station could use the same batterys to remote rep shields and armor and even modules, so repairing should be free in all stations. Either remove auto shield rep, or make armor repping in stations automatic as well. I fly caldari and this aspect of the game has always bugged me.
Maverick 52	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:05:00 - [70] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Originally by: Maverick 52 Uh...you just proved his point. Anyone who armor tanks can go do that same mission, but if they need to warp out, they need to spend that time repping their armor, or pay for it to be fixed, and you're sheild tank doesn't require that. I did not prove his point at all, if you've been reading. He first said that the dock/undock mechanism was an advantage, which I agreed with. Yes, I agreed that this is an advantage of shield tanking. This advantage you are noticing in this post you just made. However, as I also pointed out, I give up certain advantages by shield tanking, as well. Therefore, by the same logic, if I must also give up one of the only advantages to shield tanking, I should gain some of the advantages of armor tanking, such as being able to fit important PvP modules without hurting my tank. My point really was, yes, it is an advantage, no matter how small, but armor tanking has advantages over shield tanking as well, not least of which is fitting PvP modules without hurting tank, but also higher base resists, especially on EM. If we're going to remove an advantage for shield tank, which really hasn't proved to be overpowered or anything, then we should also either nerf armor tank, or allow a buff to shield tank. In the end, we're really just going for similarity, not balance. Am I afraid of it happening? Will I cry if it did get nerfed in this way? No. Do I think it's a stupid idea that doesn't need balancing that the OP is bringing up just because his precious drones got nerfed? Yes. You proved his point :) His point was the imbalance of a sheild tank not having to pay for its HP to be topped off, and a armor tank does. No matter how inconsistent he has been in defending it, he brought it up, and it is valid. It seems you agree with that point also, by what you've said. People could debate a armor tank vs. sheild tank pro's and con's all day, but the simple way i see it is... Sheild tanks in general can be made better than armor tanks. They sacrifice the ability to use EW for this ability though. Armor tanks allow the use of EW modules, at the expense of maintaining their capacitor, which requires atleast 1 midslot for a recharger/injector or low slots for power relays. Thats all generalized, as some ships sheild tank poorly/great and some armor tank poorly/great, beauty of eve. The thing is, paying to have your tank repaired no matter which kind it is, has nothing to do with the benefits of tanking.
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:21:00 - [71] Originally by: Maverick 52 His point was the imbalance of a sheild tank not having to pay for its HP to be topped off, and a armor tank does. No matter how inconsistent he has been in defending it, he brought it up, and it is valid. It seems you agree with that point also, by what you've said. Nope his point is: 'Booooooooooooooohoooooooo someone stole my lolly now i'm gonna hold my breath till all other kids loose theirs as well' that pretty much sums it up and i didn't even have to say dronenerf oops
Zenst Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Avataris Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 18:39:05 First read this: This thread is not a drone whine. Edited by: Avataris on 29/11/2007 12:23:40 by the same logic can you please nerf instant shield recharge for ships that dock up? As a Gallente armor tanker I would need to either undock to repair my armor myself or pay to have it repped by station services. Meanwhile all the Caldari passive shield tankers are Haxxoring by taking advantage of what surely must be a borderline exploit. Instant shields by docking and undocking. Surely its the same thing. Agree but there again I also agree that the lack of a skill to reduce fittings for armour modules and reduce cap usage compared to sheild tanking is also wrong. you can also see that with caldari not having much drone space and galante being hit on drone space over other ships that the use of ECM drones as disposabel waves be most popualar making any non caldari/galante ship the best drone and ecm ship too boot. Is that fair as well, welcome to EVE's revolving door or direction and results.
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:42:00 - [73] A couple of points: I have not had a go at the drone changes, in fact I have come right out and supported them. So how people can still be coming to this thread and making 'Booohooo drone' comments is beyond me. Reading skills ftl. I have been careful since the beginning of the thread to link my perceived imbalance to a specific situation, namely that of dock/undock games, where shield tankers benefit from free repair services, instantly.(regardless of what station they are at, whereas armor tankers would need a station with repair services)(which btw is another inconsistency). To me that was the crux of the argument: why should some people get for free, what others have to pay for? and furthermore, is it consistent with the rest of Eve? So far not a single one of you has come up with another example of something in Eve that is completely free of ISK and time investment but plays as large a role in PvP as cap and shield regen. That's because there is no other example. Cap and shield recharge at stations is not inline with the rest of the game, because it has no cost. (note that I'm talking about shield and cap recharge. Something most of you appear to have overlooked completely.) Now I could argue the benefits of shield vs armor with you until we are all old and lonely, but I don't think I need to. You see, I don't believe that cap/shield recharge on dock/undock from station was an intended design feature put in to benefit shield tankers. Much in the way that jet cans were never intended to be used for mining, but they still slipped through the net and ended up being used that way. Just because you've been able to take advantage of this 'free lunch' for so long doesn't make it right. It seems this little perk has even been a deciding factor for some of you when choosing shields over armor. That's a good sign something's wrong, when a periferal side effect of docking/undocking gives one tanking method the upperhand over another. The way you people carry on it's like I've suggested halving the resistances on shields, or taking away half of your missile bays. Do you really believe that having to choose whether to pay for refilling your shield, or wait for it to recharge naturally will ruin your game? Instead of crying 'Booohooo drones' and making up RP reasons for maintaining the status quo, why don't you try to tackle the real issues.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:52:00 - [74] Repairing armor is free and instantaneous... at an outpost.
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Incantare Repairing armor is free and instantaneous... at an outpost. Outposts are Mini Capturable stations. They do not have as many facilities as a regular station. At present there are four types available: Amarr Factory Outpost Caldari Research Outpost Gallente Administration Outpost Minmatar Service Outpost For further information on each of these, please read their descriptions found on the ingame market. To deploy an outpost you need to be in an alliance and have sovereignty of the system where you want to deploy the outpost. There cannot be any other stations or outposts already in the system. To start with, you need to purchase from the market an Outpost Construction Platform blueprint that corresponds to the outpost you want to build. These are not cheap, so be warned! The construction platform is built out of smaller components such as Station Docking Array and Station Construction Parts. You'll need to purchase either the blueprints for these or the individual modules off the market from other manufacturers. Once you have assembled the Outpost Construction Platform, you need to haul the platform to the system. It is quite large so you will probably need a freighter to do this. At the destination system, travel to the planet you wish your outpost to reside at and launch for corp. This will then require anchoring which will take 1 hour. If you don't have sovereignty or if any of the other requirements are not met, you will be informed at this point. Once anchored, the platform will require supplies to construct a fully fledged outpost. These can be found by clicking "show info" on the anchored construction platform and clicking the 'Material Requirements' tab. Note: The construction outpost functions in much the same way a secure cargo container does. It is freely accessible by anyone by default and requires a password setting to restrict access. This is so anyone you wish can help with this mammoth undertaking of creation an outpost. Once you have gathered them, load the required materials into the platform through the 'access resources' window, then click "build". Note: The commodities purchased directly from the market can cost around 20 billion ISK, so make sure you have the materials and resources ready before you anchor the construction platform as it is still vulnerable to attack in this state. The building process can take up to 24 hours. Once built, the outpost will appear globally within the system through a standard station icon in your overview and the right click menu. Building an outpost is no easy task, but once completed, it can not be destroyed. Note that the outpost is still conquerable, so it can be taken by your opponents, as can theirs be conquered by you. So this is 'free' of ISK and time investment how exactly?
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Avataris So this is 'free' of ISK and time investment how exactly? I never said it was, I stated a fact. You won't get a serious answer from me because this thread isn't worth my time. Cf. the title, and your motivation for posting it. But please continue to write novels in response to one liners. It amuses me.
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:17:00 - [77] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Avataris So this is 'free' of ISK and time investment how exactly? I never said it was, I stated a fact. You won't get a serious answer from me because this thread isn't worth my time. Cf. the title, and your motivation for posting it. But please continue to write novels in response to one liners. It amuses me. I won't get a serious answer from you because you're incapable of coming up with one. Get back under your rock troll.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:28:00 - [78] Go ahead and believe that if it makes you feel better. This post about sums up my feeling on the topic: Originally by: Vanessa Vale Ah, you gotta love it. Now that they think they are going to actually start losing drones (ooh vulnerable) they start whining and looking for someone to secks in the surprise. BTW, lets add docking timers to drones too :) No matter how bitter you are about the drone nerf, no matter how much you spam this thread, this topic is pointless and will amount to nothing.
Polly Prissypantz	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Mudkest same goes for cap then? I don't see why not. If it stops people station hugging and playing the dock/undock game at 0 cost to themselves, without having to rep their shields or recharge their cap. I think its a good plan. Quick trivia: What's worse? People that dock/undock constantly, or people that camp stations and then expect people to undock and just sit there and die? Food for thought.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:54:00 - [80] Originally by: Shiken Kan Want some cheese to that whine? The only ones that would be affected by your nerf would be armor tanks btw as passive shield tanks regen to over 90% when just warping away from and back to their previous position. You should have said instant cap recharge if you want to annoy those. Yeah but cap recharge is different. He benefits from that... Eh, station hugging is lame anyway. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.01 17:00:00 - [81] Originally by: Avataris I have been careful since the beginning of the thread to link my perceived imbalance to a specific situation, namely that of dock/undock games, where shield tankers benefit from free repair services, instantly.(regardless of what station they are at, whereas armor tankers would need a station with repair services)(which btw is another inconsistency). Shield tankers benefit from free repair services, instantly? LOL! Kind sir, none of my shield tanking ships has ever had its armour and structure repaired for free. I'll surely be petitioning CCP, since that can't be right! Originally by: Avataris To me that was the crux of the argument: why should some people get for free, what others have to pay for? and furthermore, is it consistent with the rest of Eve? Yes, I really don't know who messed up so I have to pay for armour and structure repair on my shield-tanking ships, it's supposed to be free! Originally by: Avataris So far not a single one of you has come up with another example of something in Eve that is completely free of ISK and time investment but plays as large a role in PvP as cap and shield regen. I wasn't aware that PvP happens at stations. I've been told they're, like, the only safe place in space! Originally by: Avataris That's because there is no other example. Cap and shield recharge at stations is not inline with the rest of the game, because it has no cost. Yeah, and they, unlike armour, auto-recharge! Give us a cap repair unit II and do away with annoying auto-recharge of shiends and cap. Originally by: Avataris Now I could argue the benefits of shield vs armor with you until we are all old and lonely, but I don't think I need to. You see, I don't believe that cap/shield recharge on dock/undock from station was an intended design feature put in to benefit shield tankers. I, too, don't believe that cap/shield recharge on dock/undock from station was an intended design feature put in to benefit shield tankers - it is my firm belief it was intended to merely help ships with shields and cap and remove the need to calculate natural cap/shield recharge in stations. Originally by: Avataris Just because you've been able to take advantage of this 'free lunch' for so long doesn't make it right. Agreed! Remove shield and cap recharge from the game, and make us pay for shield & cap recharge at the station! Why should cap be free?!? Originally by: Avataris It seems this little perk has even been a deciding factor for some of you when choosing shields over armor. Really? Oh, my god, you're seriously suggesting that people have selected shield tanks specifically because they fully recharge in station? I lack the sarcasm to attack this with! Originally by: Avataris That's a good sign something's wrong, when a periferal side effect of docking/undocking gives one tanking method the upperhand over another. Really, I knew that was the reason shield tanked ships are just plain awesome for PvP. Originally by: Avataris The way you people carry on it's like I've suggested halving the resistances on shields, Shields already have LESS total resists then armour. Clearly an imbalance. Originally by: Avataris or taking away half of your missile bays. Do you really believe that having to choose whether to pay for refilling your shield, or wait for it to recharge naturally will ruin your game? But I like my 1-5 second 'you are under attack, turn on your rep' timer over my armour health bar recharged when I leave station, and see no real reason why it should go away, unless you really want to harmonise shields and armour (like, say, giving shields the same amount of resists armour has)! Which would be a bad thing diversity wise anyway. Rifters!
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.12.01 17:29:00 - [82] I didnt know that docking with a shieldtanked ship was suppose to be a "tank-mechanic". I agree with the OP, but perhaps not for the same reasons. Nerf, the whack-a-mole stationcamps.
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Cpt Branko Shield tankers benefit from free repair services, instantly? LOL! Kind sir, none of my shield tanking ships has ever had its armour and structure repaired for free. I'll surely be petitioning CCP, since that can't be right! I never said that shield tankers had free armor and hull repairs. I said they have their primary defensive system recharged for free. Originally by: Cpt Branko I wasn't aware that PvP happens at stations. Try undocking and flying around from time to time. Originally by: Cpt Branko Yeah, and they, unlike armour, auto-recharge! Give us a cap repair unit II and do away with annoying auto-recharge of shiends and cap. A cap repair unit II is called a capacitor booster II. You can buy them on the market. And you're right, shields and capacitor auto-recharge, which takes time, except when you dock/undock. Originally by: Cpt Branko I, too, don't believe that cap/shield recharge on dock/undock from station was an intended design feature put in to benefit shield tankers - it is my firm belief it was intended to merely help ships with shields and cap and remove the need to calculate natural cap/shield recharge in stations. Which is all fine and well. Until 'removing the need to calculate natural cap/shield recharge in stations' starts to affect the way people engage outside stations, as they can just dock/undock and have an instant boost up of their cap and shields. Originally by: Cpt Branko Agreed! Remove shield and cap recharge from the game, and make us pay for shield & cap recharge at the station! Why should cap be free?!? Cap isn't free, it has a time cost, or an ISK cost, depending on whether you allow natural recharge, or use boosters to increase it. With the exception of when you dock/undock. Originally by: Cpt Branko Really? Oh, my god, you're seriously suggesting that people have selected shield tanks specifically because they fully recharge in station? I lack the sarcasm to attack this with! Originally by: Angel DeMorphis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, there was two major reasons I perfer shield tanking over armor tanking: (1) With shield tanking, especially in missions, I have more buffer when things go wrong. When my tank blows they still have to make it through armor and structure before I'm gone. (2) I don't have to pay a station to repair or sit outside and wait to repair my shields. After a fight or a mission I can come back to station, dock, and I'm ready to go. Well, also a third advantage that a shield has some natural recharge rate already, but this rate is so low without mods to help it it's not a terribly great advantage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Cpt Branko Really, I knew that was the reason shield tanked ships are just plain awesome for PvP. I never said they were. Originally by: Cpt Branko Shields already have LESS total resists then armour. Clearly an imbalance. If you truelly believe that, you should get it looked at. Originally by: Cpt Branko But I like my 1-5 second 'you are under attack, turn on your rep' timer over my armour health bar recharged when I leave station, and see no real reason why it should go away, unless you really want to harmonise shields and armour (like, say, giving shields the same amount of resists armour has)! Which would be a bad thing diversity wise anyway. I'm not suggesting we take it away. I only suggest that you wait for the natural recharge to complete, pay to have it topped up, or undock and boost.

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