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Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:55:00 - [31] meh you could at least post on the art. Artistic people usually have the worst grammah.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:56:00 - [32] I was just bumping the thread im no art critic Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:59:00 - [33] but your minmatar dont you at least like the ship design does it make you feel at home?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:01:00 - [34] I'd be at home in a can or a wreck, personally I thought that was a luxury yacht Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:03:00 - [35] good enough.
Tajidan Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:10:00 - [36] yay this thread is fun! great concepts and ideas Nova Fox. If i may i'd like to contribute some of my ideas aswell, but they still need a bit of work lol, gonna post em soonÖ¬« lol no seriously, i got a crapload of work atm so i cant be working on things for the next days. I'm currently on some kind of combat-deployment vehicle which is able to transport Equipment from Orbit straight into the combat zone. Also i'd like to ask for permission to do an interpretation from your designs, those mobile HQs are really interesting http://www.eve-gfx.com
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:13:00 - [37] mind if I take a few of the ideas and run with them for shapes. also, want any critique of your artwork, nova fox? (be warned, I'd absolutely pan it, but in constructive ways) Suze' (3d and conceptual artist, so might know what I'm talking about...)
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:22:00 - [38] I engourage all to critize the design and artwork done so far, if im not making my point across then im failing. For the combat deployment veichle lander or whatever fancy name we can come up with we got 2 versions and its possible we might do a racial ones as well. But you got the lower teired ones basically single shot use drop pods, they may have a single gun mounted and should be simplistic and look like they where made to crash onto the surface. Once on surface onboard troops roll out and goto war. I imagined all these to be egg shaped and simple but ill leave interpitations up to you. this would be drone sized and something that can fit into a capitol sized module and be fired from it. The higher teired ship would be like a transport ship where it acts as a minature fire base once on ground multiple guns and a deployed force field once surface side.. Nothing as good as the moba itself and its a size of a small frigate. However unlike the pods they arent shot out but deployed like reqular fighters so these would launch form carriers and motherships only. these ships could look likey anything though so ill leave interpitations up to those that want to do it.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:40:00 - [39] Edited by: Nova Fox on 02/12/2007 23:41:34 Im out to lunch and the minmatar is about done troop bay 1 is done. Engined wing and troop bay 2 and the main engines and any other asestcs are next changed title to us since you guys are doing your own things and probably would love the same feed back, post your works and ill mirror them on the first page with you arthored of it. I gotta redo the whole first post to reflect on the expanded scope now. Any comments about the amarr design before I build that one up? Toying around with wings on teh gallente one only to notice the clamshell top was devided wrong. whoops! will have to fix later and yeah I know its the wrong way to build up an art work as per industry standards of conceputual design but its to damn easy to fall victim to on a computer :(. As for those who are helping out and trying out your own ideas i would love to see some of the stuff your thinking of.
Burt Gummer	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:40:00 - [40] I think that battlecruiser size is far too big for a lander. First of all, like you said, they are too big to make wings very feasible. Secondly, a lander should be able to provide close air support to the troops it drops off, making them battlecruiser size is like firing off nukes at point blank range. I think a better way to go would be a planetary assault carrier of some sort that launches many smaller transports (somewhere between fighter and frigate size, probably AI controlled). This solves both problems as far as realism goes, and it is much harder to shoot down a lot of little landers than one big one. I love your overall idea, I hope i'm not too critical, but you should consider scaling down the transports a bit.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:52:00 - [41] The moba turn into bases. Im sure you can shove everything a base needs into a battlecrsuier hull and have some room to spare. As for the battlecruiser flight attributes, we did have battleship even planned to fly atmo theyll just be slow as heck compesating for the gravity pull but most planets ive seen stats wise in eve have very weak pulls like 14m/s and I think the biggest ive seen was 58m/s even though this isnt the terminal velocities of these planets since it isnt a listed stat and im no phsics major to calculate that. Most battleships push 100m/s so at best its a 50% speed nerf but those ships are only designed to fly foward not up, so possibly up to 75% of a battelships speed could be nerfed so to say. As it stands eve devs want to make atmo flight possible, so far of snap shots ive seen every sized ship up to battleship featured in snap shots only frigates on video though. And i know a tritainiumtonn of frigates that should fly atmo but probably will when it comes available to us. The mobas will have thrusters pointing down and are meant to turn into bases and implant themsevles onto the ground once landed its no close air support ship at all. It deploys and digs in and projects a forcefield around itself and rearranges to setup a battlenet for the troops.
Tajidan Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:04:00 - [42] Edited by: Tajidan on 03/12/2007 00:06:59 hmmm, i saw it more like that when a fleet of BS's and whatnot lay siege on a planet, they wont need a HQ Base down on the surface, they'll most likely run the operation from a Flagship like a Mothership or the like. When assaulting a planet all the equipment like Infantry, Ground Vehicles etc. would get landed by Dropships. Good examples are the one from Alien, or the Half-Life2 ones but with a larger scale of Attack operations in mind. The other thing is, you wont deploy Bases right into the war. I see the use of them lies more in controlling the planet when the fleet leaves and as a Base of operatrions of course for all A/A A/G combat. Also you wont send one big chunk down there but more using the infrastructure of the planet (or whats left of it) or send down the materials and constructing equipment to set new ones up if needed. One of the best series which show pretty exact how you do such things is imo Space:Above and Beyond, except the fact that they send the pilots also in Missions which should be done by specialized Groundinfantry the Planetary Assault scenarios seemed very plausible. edit:spelling :P http://www.eve-gfx.com
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:31:00 - [43] OK... Critique on the images. Ideas-wise, they're fresh work, which is always fun to look into. I'm not going into any areas of ideas here however, and focus on the technical standards of the artwork. Ideally, this sort of concept art can be split into two distinct camps: Pre-vis, and Pre-production. Pre-vis stuff is pretty simple; it's the pretty pictures that convey an overall feel for a scene, without saying anything. TheyÆre sort of like a supermodel; leggy, pretty, but a bit vacant and absolutely devoid of any constructive content. I rather presume that images like the Minmatar Lander is in the realm of pre-visualisation, by dint of the content like the backgrounds filled in. that sort of content has little place in pre-production design content. Assuming you're actually trying to design the look for actual art assets, you're moving into the design requirements for a professional team, interacting and interfacing with the other members of a department. What you're looking for with this sort of conceptualisation is clear, clean images that convey the concept designs directly for the views of the rest of a design team. In that, I'm afraid, you're failing. Now, there are a few points there that I suspect might help you to come up with clean artwork as a designer. First off, you're working in media that is at best, difficult, and at worse, entirely inappropriate for concept art. now, we all have personal preferences, but for traditional media content, over the last few years, I've been particularly biased toward the use of ultra-smooth illustration board or layout papers, with markers - with practice, greyscale marker line work can be as descriptive as fully painted images, for considerably less workload, and without much of the distracting fluff. Details like shading and blending of tones is a level of detail that I generally find to be excessive, certainly in conventional artwork, in that it can detract from the clarity of line work (technical pen and Indian ink line work is a personal preference for that clarity, but I know a few concept artists who swear by a bog-standard nib pen with waterproof ink). The images for the Caldari Lander, and particularly the Gallente Lander fail in this respect, in that the media chosen, of pencil on rough paper breaks up your image into really nasty visuals. Colour palettes should be put on as separate noted design charts, rather than drawn over the entire thing, as you've tried. I'm afraid that that sort of effort doesnÆt pass muster in the slightest, but rather ends up looking incredibly amateurish. Likewise, having stuff in the backgrounds, or having the engines flaring distracts from the clarity of good images - the best concept art often has backgrounds that are incredibly simple and minimal, and donÆt draw the viewer's eye from the subject. ThatÆs raw classical composition work which youÆll learn in time. Look at asgeirjon's work for examples of that clarity of line. From there, you really need to look at working on the compositions, to ensure that there's a flow and compositional balance in the artwork, what you have at the moment is quite primitive, and lacking much subtlety in the flow and forms you've used. that's of course down to practice, and I expect that a good few years in a decent art college will thrash the over-enthusiasm out of there and put you on the right path to becoming a decent artist. Likewise, a good strong grasp of the technical processes will help you get a clarity of line. At the absolute minimum, I'd suggest a much more delicate and mature approach to use of pencil as a medium, rather than the almost crayon-like technique you're conveying in those images. Hope that makes some sense. Feel free to ask away if IÆm not being clear.
Kantos Dal'mak	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:47:00 - [44] maybe name the gallente one promethius? or the Hephaestus? possibly the zeus? just throwing out some ideas there
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:55:00 - [45] Wow interesting work guys, A for effort! ________ "It's a good day to die!"
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:55:00 - [46] and thats what i get for not attending a real school or any art school at all... Ill take your considerations into mind and ill try better next time i go back and reup all of them and yeah I think ill do what you suggested with the minmatar one and leave the background plain. As for the grey scale markers I have seen a dvd on how to use them which overall has helped the most recent design but omg they are expensive 200$ for like a set of 8.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:11:00 - [47] Originally by: Suze'Rain Wall of text about art... good stuff, read it. Sounds like a lot of the things I heard in art class at college... But absolutely correct. The first sketch of the amarr lander is very very rough with the shaky lines. I wasn't too sure about the minmatar one until I saw how the details started coming out as he reworked it over time. My favorite form of concept art is just lines and maybe a little shading, textures and colors are a far second. (If it looks good naked... it looks good with clothes, right? ) Overall I'm interested to see where this goes... I'm not going to try to critique you as I haven't picked up pen or pencil in a few years ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:27:00 - [48] As for the purpose of the ship its been back an forth alot and heavily argued when we made them up in the first place. But its been looked at from program aspect as well. I mean as it is right now do you think you can command an army with your current interface? then add in flying as alot of you suggested as well in space or atmo while getting nailed by planetary defenses and ground units and other nasty things right now? Im sure my head would explode trying to lock some frigate webbing me into the ground (atmo flight + 0 speed = crash = dead me) while the deployed armies I have on the ground are running away from my potential crash spot and im trying to rally them to make the final push on the defenseive base. The landing will also change the session and resets the interface to allow the command and conquerish controls we all are used to in most rts where your infantry now are your modules and the stuff you had fitted on your ship will behave as the buildings most other RTS have you build and youll also be protected from things overhead unless someone lands a counter beacon right on top of you as you laid one down and you get nailed by an allied dread (most likely your forces are going to be holding the space while you invade). This setup also makes the pilot focus on the task at hand, command the army obtain victory and get the heck off the planet before more of them show up. Time and preperation are the only resources during the game bring and army do what you have to do with what units you got over time your ship may replace the lost forces. We also decided that individualized units to where if they died they where lost pernamently was out of the question though as itself would be a database monster. The closest form we got to this are the units attached to pods where they are a one time spawn and die sort. The system we went for was you as a commander contracted for an 'army' of that unit would made more sense and use the database less and improves tatics over manpower aka blobbage. RTS when we looked at it first we wanted the ground to be somewhat protected by the space ships, so that in the end the only real way to kill ground units is to send your own ground units into the fray. Ships sensors designed to target other ships really wont be able to lock onto the ground units at all, they are too small and profiles arent great enough to be picked up without the use of a flare or beacon to reveal thier location. There are also those asking why invade at all when you can just blow it up from orbit? orbital bombarding will be costly and it destroys the colony eventually where as invasion opts to capture months of work and billions in investements for themselves. Bombarding is only really needed when the ground warfare option looks unwinnable. And starving the planet out isnt on the list of things to do over an another month or two. Invasions can take out part of the colony infrastructure making it less useful to its owners out at a time as well as the guns. If all the guns are offline then a real bombardment can begin with no planetary retaliation. I mean seriosly this **** gets complicated FAST asking what if and if then then you got to remember people are going to play, gotta make it playable and toss reality out the window if it came down to it. If the game where more real life I wouldnt be able to afford ship insurance or fuel for day to day flying to and from work.
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:38:00 - [49] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 03/12/2007 01:41:11 Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 03/12/2007 01:02:31 As for the grey scale markers I have seen a dvd on how to use them which overall has helped the most recent design but omg they are expensive 200$ for like a set of 8. Pure sign that I may just be an amature using paper from the printer and a h8 .5 mechanical pencil and crayola coloring pencils... youch. you're getting gouged there. you might want to shop around, and see if you can find "letraset Tria" markers. if you're US, they're going to be pretty expensive thanks to your economy being ****ed, I'm afraid, but I can thoroughly reccommend 'em, at about ú65/$120 for each set of 24. they're spirit-based, but unlike magic markers, are a lot less volatile, and with a 3-way nib design (wedge marker, pointed, and ultrafine detail point) on each pen, actualyl makes them decent value for money. the other option is to look at airbrushes - not as fast or as convenient, but superb finish. I was lucky to go through art college before computers really took over in photoretouching, so was taught proper airbrush rendering, back in the '90s. Rotring Isograph/Rapidograph pens are a good option for linework, too. their quality really makes a difference in work. Letraset paper is also a gorgeous surface to work on. really lets the pens work well. pencils, definately, look for something with a bit more subtlety in them. I tend to use Derwent Studio for the rare occasions I still use pencil. line defination, I personally tend towards using a simple ink - sometimes freehand, sometimes using ruling and french curves for clarity. Ensuring that it's a simple smooth linework rather than a sketchy peice with lots of lines will help that too... I'll try to see if I can find any artwork that's not under NDAs that I can link up for you to show that approach, probably get that in here tomorrow in an edit.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:42:00 - [50] Feathering i was told was a bad habit of mine. tbh I cant draw a straight line to save my life...
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:14:00 - [51] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 03/12/2007 02:16:31 Originally by: Nova Fox Feathering i was told was a bad habit of mine. tbh I cant draw a straight line to save my life... heh. I think I had that traumatised out of me by force when I was around 15, when I first started doing life drawing classes. well, that, and learning to do 30-second life drawings on A2 size. you dont get the time to do feathery lines there... anyhow, just dug out a concept part that was actually somewhat inspired by some of the amarr patterning, was a very rough for a background character that never got anywhere, and is therefore completely free from NDAs and the likes. a small bit of rubbish probably about an hour's work, tops... so a slowish rate of work, but a half dozen other images created working out the details and patterning before reaching that one. not exactly great design, of course.... not least because it blows goats, IMO.... but that's what I get for ever looking at ideas 2 years on. God, it sucks :) An alternative image for a different group with very different design work was'nt quite completed (change of direction) but shows a cleaner use of mixed media, with airbrush, marker, and linework, with a bit of digital work cleaning up shadows, too anyhow, let's just say that, as a design, it should help show how clean, simple linework and marker/ink/pencil can define the shapes cleary, without any background fluff or similar fillers that would distract from the design. hope it helps clarify the ideas I'm referring to there.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:17:00 - [52] Edited by: Nova Fox on 03/12/2007 02:17:48 the bottom line is what your trying to tell me is my initial designs are over complex... oddly i seem to work backwards, I draw an overly complicated work first and make simpler refence works later... meh another lesson that would probably get crammed into me if i ever goto an art school. I take it my digital work is suffering from most of the same symptoms as well?
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 03/12/2007 02:17:48 the bottom line is what your trying to tell me is my initial designs are over complex... oddly i seem to work backwards, I draw an overly complicated work first and make simpler refence works later... meh another lesson that would probably get crammed into me if i ever goto an art school. I take it my digital work is suffering from most of the same symptoms as well? somewhat. in some ways they're quite simple, in terms of structure and composition. in others, they're being blurred by trying to throw all the info in straight away. actually, the image I like most of all the ones you've done is the amarrian concept, in that it's very bold, and very simple at the moment. makes me sort of want to grab the sketchbook and clean the lines, and see what comes from it. :) beyond the minnie lander, I've not seen much digital work, but, in a way, I suspect it's going the same route. but it's all too easy to do that with digital. hope the comments are'nt overly damning, though. I know I'm a harsh ****** with art. side effect of being an art director at times. :)
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Nova Fox on 03/12/2007 02:39:39 no problems real critizism is a hidden lesson in art. One of the few places where you can wtfbbq somone and they actually might accept it. Im about done with the minmatar one and yeah if you want to go ahead and do the amarrian one I have no problems with it,I put it together under 5 minutes the notes took longer. Ill try my hands at the simple gray scale concept work based on your guide lines in the digital format im sure I can tweak the brush to behave like a marker. When i got back and draw up the Pelican's base mode. Only did the amarrian one and posted it up to quell some angry eve mails I got about how I shafted the amarrians again hopefully it will keep them away for a while...
Kara Zane	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:55:00 - [55] Gallente Prometheus Ahh how sweet your posting your 3 year old sisters pictures she draw of EVE?
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 03:46:00 - [56] Kara Zane that wasnt very constructive of you and you really missed the point entirely. The point being to conceive a ship design for eve, not an art contest. If it was an art contest I'd be bragging not asking for help. If I fail at art deco stylized design of the gallente then say it. Not all ships can look good as an Iphone but heck I'm not french I dont live in a fancy house, ive only see one art deco chair in my life and that was in a movie from angle. I dont got much to work with in terms of design other than whats already in the game already. So until you can come up with better subject matters stop trying to provoke me and I wont reply any further until you do. And please do understand I never been to art school I dont work at an art studio I dont get paid to draw for a living Anyways back to the main subject. Minmatar Ship is done finally! Im slightly disappointed with the bottom engine on the outer wing but it will have to do for now. Minmatar Liberator
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 05:42:00 - [57] Updated the Amarr concept with suggestions from the art director there. heres the new one. Amarr sanctuary Its so much better I had to delete the old one :P
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.03 09:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Stellar Vix on 03/12/2007 09:25:16 Edited by: Stellar Vix on 03/12/2007 09:21:28 Updated Design Notes section in the third post. PDF progress is a total mess, gotta weed the document from a nasty little problem known as reduncancy. Anyways I think we are done introducing the planet fall idea and ready to hammer out embassies and citizen ship with the detailed atmo flight to follow. As of now its not ready for public and i need to contact chibbera for hosting and ask him a question on howto update a file on his server because novafox's little folder remembers things that where supposed to get replaced. SWA PVP
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:01:00 - [59] To Suze'Rain I'm still observing people doing art but examining finished works is oftenly very hard to thread apart into usable knowledge. Still I'm learning and trying to get the feel of actually doing this sorta work as I mostly drew what I used to consider final products for my own projects. The idea of those works being final is probably wrong on a business level but it would suffice for casual hobby work. This is probably the first time I got asked to do something art wise outside of my usual taskings and its been quite a learning experine for me from start to where ever the finish is. Being stuck in my nations military limits any time I could get to do art college so I'm self teaching with little resources I do have, and the pay sucks indeed. However I'm not letting subpar materials and mediums stopping me enjoying what I like to do and being given this sort of challenge has been good unstalemating the works I currently did. Technique improvement never ever really needs anything high end to carry out, just practice with similar materials shoudl suffice so that in the event the real stuff shows up it wouldnt be a fustrating feeling knowing your draining these valuables. I thank you for your critques and I'm open for more on any future works that I try to improve with using your guidance. As for the 'feathering' bad behavior I mean its very bad in my case because my still life speed drills oftenly yeild the same sort of feathered or doubled over lines that are attempting to define a single line instead. I guess my teachers didn't correct me there while I was going though high school. Anyways updated the design notes so I wouldnt get 'it would make more sense to have it this way?' as much as I used to, times running low and we sorta have to get this done instead of deliberating about it until the day the patch for it comes out. Gotta let the concrete dry beforeyou chizzel it. Anyways im out for day later guys and safe flying.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:36:00 - [60] Awesome work! I really like the completed Liberator, though I think for the kind of ship you're suggesting the scale needs to be much, much larger (considering battlecruisers have a crew of at least 800-1600 people). ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare

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