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Viper Sam Minmatar BLACK-FLAG	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Viper Sam on 06/12/2007 22:08:07 First off, let me say that I don't fly these ships - nor have I ever. But I field them in my gangs. And I will continue to field them for as long as they exist. Why? Well, they do exactly what they are meant to, which is remove range from the engagement. And they do it well. In fact, they do it 100% of the time without fail. And that's good - at least for my gangs. Because, with the exception of a few anti-support ships we field, we are a short range group. This means that the Lach/Arazu can make the long range ships either come within range of ours or cause them to fk off - either one of which is handy for us. They were never meant to completely remove ships from the fight... ever. They were meant to eliminate range. And they do precisely that. But I suspect that I'm not really telling anyone with half of a brain anything they don't already know. I suspect that what people are really angry over is the fact that these two ships took a hit as far as solo pvp ability goes. But take a hard look at the rest of the recons in the game. None of them are exactly great for solo pvp. I could go down the list of every recon ship in existence and point out several Achilles Heels in each. Their only real strength is a few tricks and the element of surprise. I would venture to say that the Gallente recons are now in line with all of the other recons (roughly). And so what if they aren't? How many Gallente ships are just fking **** through and through? The answer is a number that is grossly disproportionate to the other races. It sucks for those who trained recon just to be able to solo but these ships were never meant to solo... honestly. They are a support class of ships... bottom line.
ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:08:00 - [2] Agreed.
Sejet	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:29:00 - [3] Agreed That being sayd. i'm still training for them, personally i see all recons as support ships. not really solo ships. Combar recon: gang support, cloking not nessesary. Force recon: Black obs hit and run groups, all cloked a few to take down a ship. that being sayd i'm training for the gallente recons, bot the bonuses the ship has are essential for recon groups.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Viper Sam I suspect that what people are really angry over is the fact that these two ships took a hit as far as solo pvp ability goes. I disagree. I think their usefulness for solo work is still pretty much the same. They can still orbit at 40 km, warp disrupt from that range, and bring most ships' targeting range well below that so they can't be targeted. And then their drones do the damage. And as for close range setups, like a blaster Arazu, those don't use damps anyway. It's in gangs and fleets where they would need to work on 2 or more targets that their effectiveness has gone way down.
Praxis1452 The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:42:00 - [5] Edited by: Praxis1452 on 06/12/2007 22:43:16 Tracking disruptor- ability to protect smaller targets and ships from turrets, Energy Neutralization- Ability to break an enemies tank/assist dps, Damp- ability to protect friends through the use of range, Web- Ability to counter speed and dictate range, ECM- Ability to protect your friends from everything except FoF's and aggroed drones. Basically ECM>Damp at protecting friends and damage. neutralization is useful if not cap injecting which is rare. Web is quite odd in terms of EW but is overall one of the most useful. Basically, in terms of damage neutralization ECM>all. There is no area in which damps shine... I've ignored neuts, target painters, and a few others because some are useless and the above are the main ones used. ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
DarkXenon	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:46:00 - [6] Or you could field a few rooks or scorpians and not have the target gang lock you atall.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:46:00 - [7] Edited by: Grimpak on 06/12/2007 22:47:10 the problem is not that they could remove range or not. the problem is that besides the ARM introduction, they nerfed the damp rigs AND removed arround 20 to 30% out of the damps, and didn't even bothered to boost the celestis/maulus families bonuses. and between a rook or a lach, wich one would you prefer now, considering that half of the inties can field extended range warpscrams? --- planetary interaction idea!
Derrios Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:56:00 - [8] 53.125% damps now w/ max skills :(
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:02:00 - [9] the scripts severely hampered the solo ability of those ships as you can't protect your drones anymore which have to fly around quite a bit to not get webbed anyways and have now to do this almost constantly. Also with every other inti being able to scram from a decent range and do this indefinitely they lost another of their roles imo.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Viper Sam Not terribly well thought out and somewhat naieve post. To a certain extent you are correct. The recons were never meant as a solowtfpwnmobile. Not even the Lach or the Arazu. But the fact of the matter is, they never were. I will freely admit that I used my Arazu to kill more than my fair share of Ravens and Drakes. However, most of those pilots were completely incompetent noobs (we all were at one point), or the poor victims also had mission rats beating on them (not exactly solo now is it). However, I've never been able to solo a competent mission-running BC or larger, not to mention one fitted out for pure PvP. On one occassion I've managed to solo a T2 cruiser. Which was a rail Eagle - poor tracking ftw. If you had a clue what you were doing, you couldn't get killed by a Gal Recon. You might not be able to escape it until help arrived, but it wouldn't kill you all by itself. Now you state that you don't fly these ships (and never have), and that you have every intention to field them in your gangs. First of all, allow me to express my condolences for the poor unfortunate chump you will be press-ganging into flying this. Might I recommend that he switch to the new EAF - might be a bit more cost effective for him. Secondly, please allow me to completely disagree with your assesment on their current usefulness. While you may wish to use the Gal Recons in your gang, there are a few things you may wish to consider. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30%. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. Now lets consider this is a gang fight with relatively equal numbers rather than a 5v1 gank. Your Gal recon pilot with his reduced damps can no longer rely on just one damp to fend off opponents. He has to use 2, possibly 3 if the opponent is close. Everytime he has to double up, or triple a damp, it makes it that much harder for him to fend off a second or third opponent. And sadly, given the pizz-poor tank on the recons, he doesn't exactly have time for his gangmates to save him. Furthermore, even though you have reduced you opponents' long range to mid-range, they still don't have a locktime reduction. This is the hugest impact to gang warfare. The reduced locktime gave your gangmates about 10-20 unanswered seconds of beating on your opponents. A lifesaver for your small tacklers, and a huge bonus for your damage dealers. Now they are unlikely to have that option - unless of course your recon pilot is feeling particularly suicidal. He normally has to fit lockrange reduction for survivability. On top of this, we have the drone change. Not a huge impact in gang fights as most people do not target drones. However, drones do make up a decent percentage of a Gal Recons damage. Since they retain shield damage on being scooped, they are a bit easier to kill these days. Not a significant impact in gangs mind you, but still there nonetheless. Now to add insult to injury, the Gal Recons' other primary function of long-range scramming has been replaced by cheaper or more effective ships. The new EAF appears to be cheaper, faster locking, and still possess the questionable usefulness of damping. The second (and better) choice is an interceptor. Scram range of 30km, runs permanently, incredibly difficult to kill, and once again - cheaper. Basically, the Gal Recons have been emasculated. But I suspect that I'm not really telling any Gal Recon pilot with half of a brain anything they don't already know. Since you've never flown one, I would hazard that you might not be completely aware of the ramifications of the changes. I hope this reply has been helpful. Taxman IV: Rogue Agent
Maverick 52	Posted - 2007.12.07 00:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff stuff I've never seen anything more true on these forums. Although the Gal recons may still be able to accomplish their role in limited situations, the Caldari recons will always do a better job. Atleast until the recon's bonus gets fixed.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Am I missing something here or do the Arazu/Lach not still have the huge warp scram range bonus? useless...? Well to anything who thinks so, I will buy as many Arazus as you want to sell me at 10M each. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sejet	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:37:00 - [14] First off: Vladimir Norkoff cudos for a first class post. You make a good point. i'll atmit that i'm getting a bit anoyed that it seems like recons are being nerfed to hell. NOS/Neut made the pilgrem less then optimal for recon work. Damps might make Arazu a bit crappy. guess this will make me go after the Rapier for recon (no falcon isn't an option for me) i really hope that CCP will review the bonus for the recon ships. thanks again for a really good wright up Vladimir Norkoff.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:40:00 - [15] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 07/12/2007 01:41:13 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Am I missing something here or do the Arazu/Lach not still have the huge warp scram range bonus? useless...? Well to anything who thinks so, I will buy as many Arazus as you want to sell me at 10M each. Lets see I can either take 2 lachesis or 1 rook and one interceptor. The interceptor is fast enough that most ships cant touch it, it can now scram at 30km. The rook can REMOVE 2 ships EASY from the fight. So I either need two FULLY SKILLED/rigged recon pilots/ships or one mostly skilled pilot and one inty pilot for a more effective gang. Need more points? Well the Ares can field 2 points easy and you could always bring another since they are CHEAP. I find it hard to think of a situation where I would want a lachesis over a rook..... --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff While you may wish to use the Gal Recons in your gang, there are a few things you may wish to consider. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30%. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. Yeah, good post. And what happens to that lock range of 20km when your target has a single sensor booster fitted vs your 3 best named damps + skills + ship bonuses? Let's face it, they're a far more popular fit item than damps ever were.
Zhulik Abyss Restless Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.07 02:11:00 - [17] //gloat
PathetiQ Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 03:30:00 - [18] FIX DAMPS SHIPS! ::Killing Space Monkey Since 1969::
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.12.07 04:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Post #10 Thank you, Vladimir, for another well-researched and well-written post on the matter. It's a pity most, including the devs, will sneer at it and bring derision upon us.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 04:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Shame, Arazu pilots bring two things to a gang while the Falcon (as great as it always has been) only brings one - the Warp Disruptor range is very very good, the damps are still very effective, sure its a little weaker, but it works 100% of the time. All in all, an Arazu is a great asset to a gang as any recon is, but a Falcon spends more time defending itself then it does being offensive while the Arazu forces the enemy gang too cluster a lot more, and this is a good thing. If people want to see a ship that has no defenses, look at the Rapier. Sure, it has a webber bonus, sure it has a TP bonus which will be great with the new torp buff - but defend itself? More like speed tank or die. . . -----------
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 05:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Atius Tirawa Shame, Arazu pilots bring two things to a gang while the Falcon (as great as it always has been) only brings one - the Warp Disruptor range is very very good, the damps are still very effective, sure its a little weaker, but it works 100% of the time. All in all, an Arazu is a great asset to a gang as any recon is, but a Falcon spends more time defending itself then it does being offensive while the Arazu forces the enemy gang too cluster a lot more, and this is a good thing. Well, arguably, if you want the warp disruptor bonus you're going to be better off with the new interceptors. The damps are useless as far as I've been able to determine... damping a battleship to 18 km is not useful. It doesn't aid my tacklers, and it doesn't allow for anything more than "oh wow look you can't target me or run, but I can't do anything to you either and neither can my gang". An Arazu MIGHT be useful used in conjunction with a sniper-BS gang... but that's not the kind of gang that's run in any part of space that I've been to. Hell, even Tri doesn't run Arazu+Sniper gangs as far as I've seen. Lots of nano gangs though. Quote: If people want to see a ship that has no defenses, look at the Rapier. Sure, it has a webber bonus, sure it has a TP bonus which will be great with the new torp buff - but defend itself? More like speed tank or die. . . Yeah... the Rapier relied upon damps for its tank. Not sure I wanna get into one of those either. ;-) Nah, the Falcon is the next wtf-ewar ship, and I'll be in it til it gets nerfed. And then I'll probably sell Liang (hell, someone make an offer and I might sell her now) off. The game will be entirely DPS vs Tank at that point, and I've got much better characters for that. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Triksterism Gallente Image Not Found	Posted - 2007.12.07 05:57:00 - [22] I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. ----------------------------------- *CCP Please update my portrait on the website/forums :D*
Murder Love	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:11:00 - [23] Prepatch Phased Muons were -48% targeting range. Now (correct me if im wrong) they are -34% targeting range, with a script. Roughly 29% less effective for dampening range. An extra 5-6%(per level) buff for the Keres/Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis would bring the ships 'inline'. In my opinion Gallente Recons were inline before this nerf.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:14:00 - [24] Edited by: Hannobaal on 07/12/2007 06:16:32 Originally by: Triksterism I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. Except that a tech 2 damp on a Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis or Maulus/Keres with high skills and targeting range dampening script is just barely better than the base stats on a tech 2 damp before. And it only reduces range instead of reducing both range and resolution like it used to. So, really, a damp with both skill and ship bonuses is now only slightly more than half as effective as a totally unbonused damp was before (since it only effects one of the two attributes).
Naviset	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:38:00 - [25] If damps had more optimal that let them take snipers out of the fight.. that'd be nifty. But they dont. ECM is better on range, probably cap now as well, and it totally removes someone from the fight. Long range people arent usually gonna close range anyways, they're just gonna run off if they cant fight at long range.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Triksterism I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. You clearly haven't checked it since the patch. Jump into it now, fit the scripts and check the strength of your damps. Then start weeping... -- Join M8S Racing Team sponsored by Frontier Technologies!
Tzesaeia	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:55:00 - [27] Agreed Gallente Recons are great still for gangs. Locktime or Range doesn't matter both great.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Tzesaeia Agreed Gallente Recons are great still for gangs. Locktime or Range doesn't matter both great. Do the math with the new numbers. You're always much better off with a Rook/Falcon now. Always. At best an Arazu/Lachesis can now drop one ship's target range down to 20km (with no effect on locktime). That's with high skills and rigs. A Rook/Falcon can totally disable 2-4 ships. No contest.
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:26:00 - [29] stop the endless whine. gallente recons were not "inline" they were wtfbbqketchup-solo-pwn-mobiles and very effective in gangs also. now they just fit their roles without being extremely overpowered. If u like the rook so much, train for it. 20 days worth for gallente cruiser 5. Once u fly it, believe me u will not like it so much. has no tank, no speed and it's jamming is purely chance based. sure with omgwtfhax skills and rigs and low slots filled with ew strength mods u are going to lock down two ships out of a battle, but what happens in a bigger gang when they call u primary one second and the next second ur dead ? pilgrim is now kinda useless w/o recon ships 5 and very good all round support skills, it's barely a decent griefing machine that can take down a hac or a bc/bs helped by someone to pack the punch... rapier can web and that's all, with it's measly pg and crappy dps, and not so uber speed tank, and falcon .... well falcon cant really do anything than ecm. Only gimped ship I see here on primary bonus is pilgrim ... cuz when it comes into nos/neut range it gets wtfpwned by any decent dps ship. Stop the whine. adapt or die. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 09:36:50 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 09:35:06 Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts stop the endless whine. gallente recons were not "inline" they were wtfbbqketchup-solo-pwn-mobiles and very effective in gangs also. now they just fit their roles without being extremely overpowered. If u like the rook so much, train for it. 20 days worth for gallente cruiser 5. Once u fly it, believe me u will not like it so much. has no tank, no speed and it's jamming is purely chance based. sure with omgwtfhax skills and rigs and low slots filled with ew strength mods u are going to lock down two ships out of a battle, but what happens in a bigger gang when they call u primary one second and the next second ur dead ? Hello, "Mr. 'I have never flown a damper ship and have no clue'" First off, you're wrong. If you think being able to slightly disable max one ship vs the Rook being able to 100% disable 2-4 ships is "balanced", then you're an idiot, period. Oh, and guess what? A Lachesis doesn't have sped or tank either, and its damps are also chance-based outside optimal range (which is pretty low). Second, I know quite well what a Rook can do. And no, it's not "maybe 2 ships with high skills and rigs", it's 2-4 ships with high skills and rigs. You don't immediately go boom if you miss one cycle, you're only in trouble if you miss multiple cycles. With the Rook bonus + high skills + rigs + lowslot mods, that chance is very, very, very low. Oh, and a competent ECM pilot cycle-jams targets, and doesn't just slap N x ECM on a ship and go have lunch. And yes, you get called primary a lot. That's the lot of EW ships in the game.

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