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Viper Sam Minmatar BLACK-FLAG	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Viper Sam on 06/12/2007 22:08:07 First off, let me say that I don't fly these ships - nor have I ever. But I field them in my gangs. And I will continue to field them for as long as they exist. Why? Well, they do exactly what they are meant to, which is remove range from the engagement. And they do it well. In fact, they do it 100% of the time without fail. And that's good - at least for my gangs. Because, with the exception of a few anti-support ships we field, we are a short range group. This means that the Lach/Arazu can make the long range ships either come within range of ours or cause them to fk off - either one of which is handy for us. They were never meant to completely remove ships from the fight... ever. They were meant to eliminate range. And they do precisely that. But I suspect that I'm not really telling anyone with half of a brain anything they don't already know. I suspect that what people are really angry over is the fact that these two ships took a hit as far as solo pvp ability goes. But take a hard look at the rest of the recons in the game. None of them are exactly great for solo pvp. I could go down the list of every recon ship in existence and point out several Achilles Heels in each. Their only real strength is a few tricks and the element of surprise. I would venture to say that the Gallente recons are now in line with all of the other recons (roughly). And so what if they aren't? How many Gallente ships are just fking **** through and through? The answer is a number that is grossly disproportionate to the other races. It sucks for those who trained recon just to be able to solo but these ships were never meant to solo... honestly. They are a support class of ships... bottom line.
ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:08:00 - [2] Agreed.
Sejet	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:29:00 - [3] Agreed That being sayd. i'm still training for them, personally i see all recons as support ships. not really solo ships. Combar recon: gang support, cloking not nessesary. Force recon: Black obs hit and run groups, all cloked a few to take down a ship. that being sayd i'm training for the gallente recons, bot the bonuses the ship has are essential for recon groups.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Viper Sam I suspect that what people are really angry over is the fact that these two ships took a hit as far as solo pvp ability goes. I disagree. I think their usefulness for solo work is still pretty much the same. They can still orbit at 40 km, warp disrupt from that range, and bring most ships' targeting range well below that so they can't be targeted. And then their drones do the damage. And as for close range setups, like a blaster Arazu, those don't use damps anyway. It's in gangs and fleets where they would need to work on 2 or more targets that their effectiveness has gone way down.
Praxis1452 The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:42:00 - [5] Edited by: Praxis1452 on 06/12/2007 22:43:16 Tracking disruptor- ability to protect smaller targets and ships from turrets, Energy Neutralization- Ability to break an enemies tank/assist dps, Damp- ability to protect friends through the use of range, Web- Ability to counter speed and dictate range, ECM- Ability to protect your friends from everything except FoF's and aggroed drones. Basically ECM>Damp at protecting friends and damage. neutralization is useful if not cap injecting which is rare. Web is quite odd in terms of EW but is overall one of the most useful. Basically, in terms of damage neutralization ECM>all. There is no area in which damps shine... I've ignored neuts, target painters, and a few others because some are useless and the above are the main ones used. ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
DarkXenon	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:46:00 - [6] Or you could field a few rooks or scorpians and not have the target gang lock you atall.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:46:00 - [7] Edited by: Grimpak on 06/12/2007 22:47:10 the problem is not that they could remove range or not. the problem is that besides the ARM introduction, they nerfed the damp rigs AND removed arround 20 to 30% out of the damps, and didn't even bothered to boost the celestis/maulus families bonuses. and between a rook or a lach, wich one would you prefer now, considering that half of the inties can field extended range warpscrams? --- planetary interaction idea!
Derrios Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:56:00 - [8] 53.125% damps now w/ max skills :(
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:02:00 - [9] the scripts severely hampered the solo ability of those ships as you can't protect your drones anymore which have to fly around quite a bit to not get webbed anyways and have now to do this almost constantly. Also with every other inti being able to scram from a decent range and do this indefinitely they lost another of their roles imo.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Viper Sam Not terribly well thought out and somewhat naieve post. To a certain extent you are correct. The recons were never meant as a solowtfpwnmobile. Not even the Lach or the Arazu. But the fact of the matter is, they never were. I will freely admit that I used my Arazu to kill more than my fair share of Ravens and Drakes. However, most of those pilots were completely incompetent noobs (we all were at one point), or the poor victims also had mission rats beating on them (not exactly solo now is it). However, I've never been able to solo a competent mission-running BC or larger, not to mention one fitted out for pure PvP. On one occassion I've managed to solo a T2 cruiser. Which was a rail Eagle - poor tracking ftw. If you had a clue what you were doing, you couldn't get killed by a Gal Recon. You might not be able to escape it until help arrived, but it wouldn't kill you all by itself. Now you state that you don't fly these ships (and never have), and that you have every intention to field them in your gangs. First of all, allow me to express my condolences for the poor unfortunate chump you will be press-ganging into flying this. Might I recommend that he switch to the new EAF - might be a bit more cost effective for him. Secondly, please allow me to completely disagree with your assesment on their current usefulness. While you may wish to use the Gal Recons in your gang, there are a few things you may wish to consider. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30%. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. Now lets consider this is a gang fight with relatively equal numbers rather than a 5v1 gank. Your Gal recon pilot with his reduced damps can no longer rely on just one damp to fend off opponents. He has to use 2, possibly 3 if the opponent is close. Everytime he has to double up, or triple a damp, it makes it that much harder for him to fend off a second or third opponent. And sadly, given the pizz-poor tank on the recons, he doesn't exactly have time for his gangmates to save him. Furthermore, even though you have reduced you opponents' long range to mid-range, they still don't have a locktime reduction. This is the hugest impact to gang warfare. The reduced locktime gave your gangmates about 10-20 unanswered seconds of beating on your opponents. A lifesaver for your small tacklers, and a huge bonus for your damage dealers. Now they are unlikely to have that option - unless of course your recon pilot is feeling particularly suicidal. He normally has to fit lockrange reduction for survivability. On top of this, we have the drone change. Not a huge impact in gang fights as most people do not target drones. However, drones do make up a decent percentage of a Gal Recons damage. Since they retain shield damage on being scooped, they are a bit easier to kill these days. Not a significant impact in gangs mind you, but still there nonetheless. Now to add insult to injury, the Gal Recons' other primary function of long-range scramming has been replaced by cheaper or more effective ships. The new EAF appears to be cheaper, faster locking, and still possess the questionable usefulness of damping. The second (and better) choice is an interceptor. Scram range of 30km, runs permanently, incredibly difficult to kill, and once again - cheaper. Basically, the Gal Recons have been emasculated. But I suspect that I'm not really telling any Gal Recon pilot with half of a brain anything they don't already know. Since you've never flown one, I would hazard that you might not be completely aware of the ramifications of the changes. I hope this reply has been helpful. Taxman IV: Rogue Agent
Maverick 52	Posted - 2007.12.07 00:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff stuff I've never seen anything more true on these forums. Although the Gal recons may still be able to accomplish their role in limited situations, the Caldari recons will always do a better job. Atleast until the recon's bonus gets fixed.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Am I missing something here or do the Arazu/Lach not still have the huge warp scram range bonus? useless...? Well to anything who thinks so, I will buy as many Arazus as you want to sell me at 10M each. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sejet	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:37:00 - [14] First off: Vladimir Norkoff cudos for a first class post. You make a good point. i'll atmit that i'm getting a bit anoyed that it seems like recons are being nerfed to hell. NOS/Neut made the pilgrem less then optimal for recon work. Damps might make Arazu a bit crappy. guess this will make me go after the Rapier for recon (no falcon isn't an option for me) i really hope that CCP will review the bonus for the recon ships. thanks again for a really good wright up Vladimir Norkoff.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:40:00 - [15] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 07/12/2007 01:41:13 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Am I missing something here or do the Arazu/Lach not still have the huge warp scram range bonus? useless...? Well to anything who thinks so, I will buy as many Arazus as you want to sell me at 10M each. Lets see I can either take 2 lachesis or 1 rook and one interceptor. The interceptor is fast enough that most ships cant touch it, it can now scram at 30km. The rook can REMOVE 2 ships EASY from the fight. So I either need two FULLY SKILLED/rigged recon pilots/ships or one mostly skilled pilot and one inty pilot for a more effective gang. Need more points? Well the Ares can field 2 points easy and you could always bring another since they are CHEAP. I find it hard to think of a situation where I would want a lachesis over a rook..... --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.12.07 01:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff While you may wish to use the Gal Recons in your gang, there are a few things you may wish to consider. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30%. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. Yeah, good post. And what happens to that lock range of 20km when your target has a single sensor booster fitted vs your 3 best named damps + skills + ship bonuses? Let's face it, they're a far more popular fit item than damps ever were.
Zhulik Abyss Restless Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.07 02:11:00 - [17] //gloat
PathetiQ Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 03:30:00 - [18] FIX DAMPS SHIPS! ::Killing Space Monkey Since 1969::
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.12.07 04:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Post #10 Thank you, Vladimir, for another well-researched and well-written post on the matter. It's a pity most, including the devs, will sneer at it and bring derision upon us.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 04:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff terribly well thought out and very instructive post Listen to the man - he's right on target. If you want an Arazu in your gang, take an interceptor or Falcon instead - seriously. There is no longer any point to flying with an Arazu. I know that I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 as soon as I figured out we wouldn't be able to pressure the devs into boosting the Celestis family ships to some sensible level. Nope, off to the Falcon I go (in about 5 days). Liang Shame, Arazu pilots bring two things to a gang while the Falcon (as great as it always has been) only brings one - the Warp Disruptor range is very very good, the damps are still very effective, sure its a little weaker, but it works 100% of the time. All in all, an Arazu is a great asset to a gang as any recon is, but a Falcon spends more time defending itself then it does being offensive while the Arazu forces the enemy gang too cluster a lot more, and this is a good thing. If people want to see a ship that has no defenses, look at the Rapier. Sure, it has a webber bonus, sure it has a TP bonus which will be great with the new torp buff - but defend itself? More like speed tank or die. . . -----------
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 05:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Atius Tirawa Shame, Arazu pilots bring two things to a gang while the Falcon (as great as it always has been) only brings one - the Warp Disruptor range is very very good, the damps are still very effective, sure its a little weaker, but it works 100% of the time. All in all, an Arazu is a great asset to a gang as any recon is, but a Falcon spends more time defending itself then it does being offensive while the Arazu forces the enemy gang too cluster a lot more, and this is a good thing. Well, arguably, if you want the warp disruptor bonus you're going to be better off with the new interceptors. The damps are useless as far as I've been able to determine... damping a battleship to 18 km is not useful. It doesn't aid my tacklers, and it doesn't allow for anything more than "oh wow look you can't target me or run, but I can't do anything to you either and neither can my gang". An Arazu MIGHT be useful used in conjunction with a sniper-BS gang... but that's not the kind of gang that's run in any part of space that I've been to. Hell, even Tri doesn't run Arazu+Sniper gangs as far as I've seen. Lots of nano gangs though. Quote: If people want to see a ship that has no defenses, look at the Rapier. Sure, it has a webber bonus, sure it has a TP bonus which will be great with the new torp buff - but defend itself? More like speed tank or die. . . Yeah... the Rapier relied upon damps for its tank. Not sure I wanna get into one of those either. ;-) Nah, the Falcon is the next wtf-ewar ship, and I'll be in it til it gets nerfed. And then I'll probably sell Liang (hell, someone make an offer and I might sell her now) off. The game will be entirely DPS vs Tank at that point, and I've got much better characters for that. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Triksterism Gallente Image Not Found	Posted - 2007.12.07 05:57:00 - [22] I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. ----------------------------------- *CCP Please update my portrait on the website/forums :D*
Murder Love	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:11:00 - [23] Prepatch Phased Muons were -48% targeting range. Now (correct me if im wrong) they are -34% targeting range, with a script. Roughly 29% less effective for dampening range. An extra 5-6%(per level) buff for the Keres/Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis would bring the ships 'inline'. In my opinion Gallente Recons were inline before this nerf.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:14:00 - [24] Edited by: Hannobaal on 07/12/2007 06:16:32 Originally by: Triksterism I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. Except that a tech 2 damp on a Celestis/Arazu/Lachesis or Maulus/Keres with high skills and targeting range dampening script is just barely better than the base stats on a tech 2 damp before. And it only reduces range instead of reducing both range and resolution like it used to. So, really, a damp with both skill and ship bonuses is now only slightly more than half as effective as a totally unbonused damp was before (since it only effects one of the two attributes).
Naviset	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:38:00 - [25] If damps had more optimal that let them take snipers out of the fight.. that'd be nifty. But they dont. ECM is better on range, probably cap now as well, and it totally removes someone from the fight. Long range people arent usually gonna close range anyways, they're just gonna run off if they cant fight at long range.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Triksterism I fly an Arazu/Lach and scripts havent changed anything much at all. Just grab the range dampening scripts and you're good to go. End of story. You clearly haven't checked it since the patch. Jump into it now, fit the scripts and check the strength of your damps. Then start weeping... -- Join M8S Racing Team sponsored by Frontier Technologies!
Tzesaeia	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:55:00 - [27] Agreed Gallente Recons are great still for gangs. Locktime or Range doesn't matter both great.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Tzesaeia Agreed Gallente Recons are great still for gangs. Locktime or Range doesn't matter both great. Do the math with the new numbers. You're always much better off with a Rook/Falcon now. Always. At best an Arazu/Lachesis can now drop one ship's target range down to 20km (with no effect on locktime). That's with high skills and rigs. A Rook/Falcon can totally disable 2-4 ships. No contest.
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:26:00 - [29] stop the endless whine. gallente recons were not "inline" they were wtfbbqketchup-solo-pwn-mobiles and very effective in gangs also. now they just fit their roles without being extremely overpowered. If u like the rook so much, train for it. 20 days worth for gallente cruiser 5. Once u fly it, believe me u will not like it so much. has no tank, no speed and it's jamming is purely chance based. sure with omgwtfhax skills and rigs and low slots filled with ew strength mods u are going to lock down two ships out of a battle, but what happens in a bigger gang when they call u primary one second and the next second ur dead ? pilgrim is now kinda useless w/o recon ships 5 and very good all round support skills, it's barely a decent griefing machine that can take down a hac or a bc/bs helped by someone to pack the punch... rapier can web and that's all, with it's measly pg and crappy dps, and not so uber speed tank, and falcon .... well falcon cant really do anything than ecm. Only gimped ship I see here on primary bonus is pilgrim ... cuz when it comes into nos/neut range it gets wtfpwned by any decent dps ship. Stop the whine. adapt or die. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 09:36:50 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 09:35:06 Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts stop the endless whine. gallente recons were not "inline" they were wtfbbqketchup-solo-pwn-mobiles and very effective in gangs also. now they just fit their roles without being extremely overpowered. If u like the rook so much, train for it. 20 days worth for gallente cruiser 5. Once u fly it, believe me u will not like it so much. has no tank, no speed and it's jamming is purely chance based. sure with omgwtfhax skills and rigs and low slots filled with ew strength mods u are going to lock down two ships out of a battle, but what happens in a bigger gang when they call u primary one second and the next second ur dead ? Hello, "Mr. 'I have never flown a damper ship and have no clue'" First off, you're wrong. If you think being able to slightly disable max one ship vs the Rook being able to 100% disable 2-4 ships is "balanced", then you're an idiot, period. Oh, and guess what? A Lachesis doesn't have sped or tank either, and its damps are also chance-based outside optimal range (which is pretty low). Second, I know quite well what a Rook can do. And no, it's not "maybe 2 ships with high skills and rigs", it's 2-4 ships with high skills and rigs. You don't immediately go boom if you miss one cycle, you're only in trouble if you miss multiple cycles. With the Rook bonus + high skills + rigs + lowslot mods, that chance is very, very, very low. Oh, and a competent ECM pilot cycle-jams targets, and doesn't just slap N x ECM on a ship and go have lunch. And yes, you get called primary a lot. That's the lot of EW ships in the game.
Puupuu Latrocinium	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:41:00 - [31] I for one think Arazu can still be very useful; it can provide a significant amount of cap to you or your gang. Just right click the ship in your hangar and choose "Reprocess". Then make cap boosters out of the minerals you receive.
Kakita J Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:44:00 - [32] Edited by: Kakita J on 07/12/2007 09:45:59 The question is whether a combo of Rook + Lachesis for lock breaking and resolution damping is better than 2 Rooks. If the 2 Rooks are better, the Gallente Recons are mainly useful for the warp scrambler range, but I still feel their combination of EW disabling and range is a useful asset, versus a more specialized Rook or inty which can do one of the two better(?). edit: Combo as in, 1 ECM and 1 damper on each target makes for 6 fairly disabled targets. Probably worse than 2 Rooks, though... -------------------------------------- "They better fix the bleep bleep bleep jump bleep gates before I bleepbleepbleep and then some."
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 09:37:12 Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts stop the endless whine. gallente recons were not "inline" they were wtfbbqketchup-solo-pwn-mobiles and very effective in gangs also. now they just fit their roles without being extremely overpowered. If u like the rook so much, train for it. 20 days worth for gallente cruiser 5. Once u fly it, believe me u will not like it so much. has no tank, no speed and it's jamming is purely chance based. sure with omgwtfhax skills and rigs and low slots filled with ew strength mods u are going to lock down two ships out of a battle, but what happens in a bigger gang when they call u primary one second and the next second ur dead ? Hello, "Mr. 'I have never flown a damper ship and have no clue'" First off, you're wrong. If you think being able to slightly disable max one ship vs the Rook being able to 100% disable 2-4 ships is "balanced", then you're an idiot, period. Oh, and guess what? A Lachesis doesn't have speed or tank either, and its damps are also chance-based outside optimal range (which is pretty low). Second, I know quite well what a Rook can do. And no, it's not "maybe 2 ships with high skills and rigs", it's 2-4 ships with high skills and rigs. You don't immediately go boom if you miss one cycle, you're only in trouble if you miss multiple cycles. With the Rook bonus + high skills + rigs + lowslot mods, that chance is very, very, very low. Oh, and a competent ECM pilot cycle-jams targets, and doesn't just slap N x ECM on a ship and go have lunch. And yes, you get called primary a lot. That's the lot of EW ships in the game. well then fly a rook and I hope I see u on the field to show u how easily it gets pwned compared to an arazu which has clearly superior deffensive capabilities. and yes I flew a lot of damp setups on curse, rapier, manticore, arazu. and yes they were overpowered. So stop whining about ccp taking away your i-win button u n00b I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 09:58:00 - [34] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts well then fly a rook and I hope I see u on the field to show u how easily it gets pwned compared to an arazu which has clearly superior deffensive capabilities. and yes I flew a lot of damp setups on curse, rapier, manticore, arazu. and yes they were overpowered. So stop whining about ccp taking away your i-win button u n00b Honestly, with the lack of spelling ability and the "n00b" crap, you're coming off as someone... well, pretty young. Nothing bad in that, but in case you aren't a schoolkid, then you might want to pay attention to your writing. Anyway, I think you're talking about solo stuff here, which I honestly don't care much about; I'm talking about gang/fleet support capabilities. Why would you take a ship into an EW gang that can at most disable one ship, when you have another ship that can do a 2-4x better job? That's the problem. We fly EW a lot, and after this I personally see no reason to fly my Lachesis/Arazu as gang support. And yes, damps were overpowered before, I'm not contesting that. I think it's fine that they were nerfed on normal ships. Thing is, this also made them close to useless on the specialist ships, and this combined with the ECM boost in Trinity has thrown recon balance out the window. I'm fine with damps being weak on non-specialist ships... ... but the Arazu and Lachesis need a boost to their damp bonus in order to be useful as EW ships. Their secondary function (scramble range) is also a lot weaker now, since inties can now scramble at 30km range and we have the new infinite-strength HIC focused module. Overall, the ships (which were previously pretty balanced) have been hit by nerfs from multiple fronts, while the already very powerful Rook got boosted in multiple ways. (same goes for Curse/Pilgrim, they need a boost to their TD bonus)
Kel Solaar Soulbound. Tenth Legion	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Puupuu I for one think Arazu can still be very useful; it can provide a significant amount of cap to you or your gang. Just right click the ship in your hangar and choose "Reprocess". Then make cap boosters out of the minerals you receive. Hahaha :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 10:13:02 Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts well then fly a rook and I hope I see u on the field to show u how easily it gets pwned compared to an arazu which has clearly superior deffensive capabilities. and yes I flew a lot of damp setups on curse, rapier, manticore, arazu. and yes they were overpowered. So stop whining about ccp taking away your i-win button u n00b "n00b". Yeah, well, whatever. Anyway, I think you're talking about solo stuff here, which I honestly don't care much about; I'm talking about gang/fleet support capabilities. Why would you take a ship into an EW gang that can at most disable one ship, when you have another ship that can do a 2-4x better job? That's the problem. We fly EW a lot, and after this I personally see no reason to fly my Lachesis/Arazu as gang support. And yes, damps were overpowered before, I'm not contesting that. I think it's fine that they were nerfed on normal ships. Thing is, this also made them close to useless on the specialist ships, and this combined with the ECM boost in Trinity has thrown recon balance out the window. I'm fine with damps being weak on non-specialist ships... ... but the Arazu and Lachesis need a boost to their damp bonus in order to be useful as EW ships. Their secondary function (scramble range) is also a lot weaker now, since inties can now scramble at 30km range and we have the new infinite-strength HIC focused module. Overall, the ships (which were previously pretty balanced) have been hit by nerfs from multiple fronts, while the already very powerful Rook got boosted in multiple ways. (same goes for Curse/Pilgrim, they need a boost to their TD bonus) For the record ... I'm 20 years old and my native language isn't English and being around eve so much you kinda get used to using typos quite often. Back to the point. Yes arazu can still take out a ship effectively out of combat and tbh the bonus that it gets on warp disrupt mods is nothing to frown upon. I'm sure you have 0.0 fleet pvp experience, that means that you know that arazu/lach gets primaried after the ECM boats do, also it has the ability to fit a decent passive plate tank. If you get primaried, and you're not lagging out you have to gtfo really fast like in any recon, if you get pointed just damp the ship with the point ( assuming it isn't an arazu or lach lol ) and get out. The fact that you can fit a couple of domi warp disruptors and have 60km range on them coupled with say a command ship that gives out range bonus on it adds up to about 80km range on them, now if u overheat the mods ( only in theory lol ) you can put points on ships from 100km range ... now what other ship can do that ? That being said, a 25% bonus to damps on it would make things better but even so, it's still a nice addition to small and large fleets imo. P.S. I have an alt that flies gallente recons and I'm still gonna train them on my main which flies amarr and minmatar recons because I still think they're ok. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:45:00 - [37] Originally by: Puupuu I for one think Arazu can still be very useful; it can provide a significant amount of cap to you or your gang. Just right click the ship in your hangar and choose "Reprocess". Then make cap boosters out of the minerals you receive. You win. Too bad we'll have to wait 6 months until CCP boosts the damp bonuses on gallente recons. --- I am violence boat
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 10:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts The fact that you can fit a couple of domi warp disruptors and have 60km range on them coupled with say a command ship that gives out range bonus on it adds up to about 80km range on them, now if u overheat the mods ( only in theory lol ) you can put points on ships from 100km range ... now what other ship can do that ? Well, yeah, it's a nice ability, I'm not saying the scrambler thing is worthless. Of course, fitting domination scramblers on a paper-thin ship that gets primaried a lot is... iffy, and you're not always lucky enough to be flying in a gang with a mindlinked high-skill Minmatar fleet command pilot. But yeah, in theory. In practice, though, the scramble range thing used to be a major factor but now it's somewhat getting overshadowed by the other scrambling boosts (new inties, HIC focused mode), so it's not quite as unique. Usefull still, yes. I'll have to play around and see if there's some gang support use that I could still put my Lachesis / Arazu to, but at the moment it's not looking too good. My gut feel is that the EW bonus of the ships is in need of a boost. We'll see.
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:01:00 - [39] Edited by: Dreadpilot Roberts on 07/12/2007 11:05:46 Edited by: Dreadpilot Roberts on 07/12/2007 11:04:48 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts The fact that you can fit a couple of domi warp disruptors and have 60km range on them coupled with say a command ship that gives out range bonus on it adds up to about 80km range on them, now if u overheat the mods ( only in theory lol ) you can put points on ships from 100km range ... now what other ship can do that ? Well, yeah, it's a nice ability, I'm not saying the scrambler thing is worthless. Of course, fitting domination scramblers on a paper-thin ship that gets primaried a lot is... iffy, and you're not always lucky enough to be flying in a gang with a mindlinked high-skill Minmatar fleet command pilot. But yeah, in theory. In practice, though, the scramble range thing used to be a major factor but now it's somewhat getting overshadowed by the other scrambling boosts (new inties, HIC focused mode), so it's not quite as unique. Usefull still, yes. I'll have to play around and see if there's some gang support use that I could still put my Lachesis / Arazu to, but at the moment it's not looking too good. My gut feel is that the EW bonus of the ships is in need of a boost. We'll see. tbh the arazu's "main" ability still stands. Being able to fit a cov ops cloak and penetrating heavily camped systems. So for small roaming gangs it's still very useful. For large fleets, it's primary bonus to warp disr still holds nicely. And trust me, if caldari e-war is so overpowered atm in the near future a zillion threads will start forcing ccp to swing the nerf-bat once more oh yeah, uhm, about rook being able to totally lock out 2-4 ships at the same time .... please follow this link http://tri.exanimo.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=81646 shows you that half the rook pilots out there dont have a clue how to fit them so don't get your panties up in bunch will ya? :) I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:12:00 - [40] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 11:12:49 Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts tbh the arazu's "main" ability still stands. Being able to fit a cov ops cloak and penetrating heavily camped systems. So for small roaming gangs it's still very useful. For large fleets, it's primary bonus to warp disr still holds nicely. And trust me, if caldari e-war is so overpowered atm in the near future a zillion threads will start forcing ccp to swing the nerf-bat once more Well, yeah, that's actually what worries me a bit. I have no big issue with just switching to Rook/Falcon for EW, but I really don't want to see yet another ECM nerf down the road. I'd much rather seee a reasonable boost to the Gallente (and Amarr) recon EW bonus, so that they'd see use, too. And sure, I can still use an Arazu to sneak around solo and scout, it's not completely useless. Of course, I can do the same with any of the other cloaking recons, too. Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts oh yeah, uhm, about rook being able to totally lock out 2-4 ships at the same time .... please follow this link http://tri.exanimo.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=81646 shows you that half the rook pilots out there dont have a clue how to fit them so don't get your panties up in bunch will ya? :) Heh, so true. Yeah, maybe I'm spoiled by flying with people who do know how to fit their ships and do have high ECM skills; I know from personal experience how deadly they can be in a gang. It's probably a good thing that all too many people don't really know how to fly ECM ships.
Viper Sam Minmatar BLACK-FLAG	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:13:00 - [41] I have to say then, guys... don't field them. I still will. The fact that I don't fly them myself gives me a pretty objective view on them. To say that they're useless is a gross exaggeration. They're not useless. In fact, they are useful. I never claimed that the ECM Recons weren't more powerful. I don't think anyone is making that claim. I do know the Rook's capabilities, though. I actually did fly one of those. I sold that character a long time ago, however. That fact alone is a testament of how severely lacking Caldari was in anything other than blob warfare. So what? Caldari has a better Recon than Gallente. Caldari are supposed to be the E-war geared race. I'll say it again: How many Gallente ships are absolutely superior to all other ships? Besides, have you ever tried to solo with a Rook? Not pretty. You give up two mids just to tackle and a third if you want to tackle well. Gee whiz, that sure hampers your ability to perma jam. So the Lach and Arazu are still better solo ships. You can try to convince us that they are useless... heck, you can even try to convince yourself. You may even succeed in the latter. But in the end you will still be flying them. Why? Because they're decent ships - especially in fleet.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Viper Sam So the Lach and Arazu are still better solo ships. what? you needed at least 3 damps to shut down a single ship. and 2 T2 1point warp jammers to overcome the probable stab *****s you might find in the way. add the mwd, quintessential to the setup, and a sensor booster so that you may lock faster. where's the web? recons are not solo ships. the pilgrim and curse were solo ships, but that was "fixed" when they nerfed nosfs. altho I can see an arazu solo'ing indies and barges and the occasional noob cruiser, I'm not seeing how an arazu or a lach can be solo machines. oh and before you come and say "but hey, I can warpjam at 40km range". well I can do that too for a 10th of the price that it costs to buy and fit an arazu, altho with somewhat decreased warp range. it's called "ares". --- planetary interaction idea!
joshmorris Ravenous Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:19:00 - [43] I didnt fly my lach solo , i flew it in small 3-5 gangs where i was the only ewar. I was a key part of the gang now i am useless, we would just go in bc's maybe a hac and a few ceptors. My job was to obviously shut down targets , most of my gang done there dps under 20k so yeah i can damp as support i just .. wont do anything. PLease understand that the nerf was ment for sensor damps never for the arazu and lach ! They were fine balanced ships and just because they could solo roam and take down cruisers / non drone bcs down by them selfs is not a argument to keep them nerfed. Uber idea solves all !!
joshmorris Ravenous Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:22:00 - [44] Originally by: Viper Sam I have to say then, guys... don't field them. I still will. The fact that I don't fly them myself gives me a pretty objective view on them. To say that they're useless is a gross exaggeration. They're not useless. In fact, they are useful. I never claimed that the ECM Recons weren't more powerful. I don't think anyone is making that claim. I do know the Rook's capabilities, though. I actually did fly one of those. I sold that character a long time ago, however. That fact alone is a testament of how severely lacking Caldari was in anything other than blob warfare. So what? Caldari has a better Recon than Gallente. Caldari are supposed to be the E-war geared race. I'll say it again: How many Gallente ships are absolutely superior to all other ships? Besides, have you ever tried to solo with a Rook? Not pretty. You give up two mids just to tackle and a third if you want to tackle well. Gee whiz, that sure hampers your ability to perma jam. So the Lach and Arazu are still better solo ships. You can try to convince us that they are useless... heck, you can even try to convince yourself. You may even succeed in the latter. But in the end you will still be flying them. Why? Because they're decent ships - especially in fleet. Tbh u could probly settup ur rook to solo better, i couldnt set up my lach to damp better because of stacking penalty's. Uber idea solves all !!
Thendementhord Caldari Ikani Incorporated Omega Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:38:00 - [45] ECM and "totally", "100%", "always", "lock out multiple ships" in the same sentence? Do a reality check guys... Especially try it on a recon or EW frig... Do you want some blueprints? 1000 run exploration probe prints for sale!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 14:14:00 - [46] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 14:16:03 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/12/2007 14:15:05 Originally by: Thendementhord ECM and "totally", "100%", "always", "lock out multiple ships" in the same sentence? Do a reality check guys... Especially try it on a recon or EW frig... Probability math: it's a wonderful thing. Learn it, love it. The 100% is used in the sense of "100% lock down of a ship", which is what ECM does -- unlike damps, especially now. As for "multiple ships", yes; a good Rook pilot will be able to reliably keep 2-4 ships locked down. Fact, tested in combat since forever. Needs high skills, a good fit and practical experience, but so does everything else. As for "always"... well, sure, in some rare cases you fail. However, since you need to fail multiple cycles in a row in order for it to have any effect, the chance of that happening is very, very low. Assuming you engage brain and cycle-jam, instead of just siccing ECMs on target and twiddling thumbs. I've flown a lot with good ECM pilots. I know and have seen what they can do. In fact, our ECM pilots have said that they think the new ECM boosts may be a bit over the top... not that they are exactly complaining, but... One additional thing that not very many people seem to be unaware of: damps also become chance-based beyond optimal. If you take a look at the optimal range of damps, and realize that damper ships don't get a range bonus, you'll notice that in practical combat damps are far from being 100%, also.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.07 15:51:00 - [47] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 07/12/2007 15:52:19 Originally by: Viper Sam I have to say then, guys... don't field them. I still will. The fact that I don't fly them myself gives me a pretty objective view on them. To say that they're useless is a gross exaggeration. They're not useless. In fact, they are useful. I never claimed that the ECM Recons weren't more powerful. I don't think anyone is making that claim. I do know the Rook's capabilities, though. I actually did fly one of those. I sold that character a long time ago, however. That fact alone is a testament of how severely lacking Caldari was in anything other than blob warfare. So what? Caldari has a better Recon than Gallente. Caldari are supposed to be the E-war geared race. I'll say it again: How many Gallente ships are absolutely superior to all other ships? Besides, have you ever tried to solo with a Rook? Not pretty. You give up two mids just to tackle and a third if you want to tackle well. Gee whiz, that sure hampers your ability to perma jam. So the Lach and Arazu are still better solo ships. You can try to convince us that they are useless... heck, you can even try to convince yourself. You may even succeed in the latter. But in the end you will still be flying them. Why? Because they're decent ships - especially in fleet. I see what you did there. The posters in this thread cornered you with logic, and now you're resorting to the typical 'Well the Gallente ahve other uber ships'. yea, that's a solid argument against boosting hte lach/arazu Thing is, gallente are not the top ships anymore. Read the patchnotes? ----------------- Friends Forever
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 15:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Viper Sam The fact that I don't fly them myself gives me a pretty objective view on them. I think this is the most humorous and telling quote. How about you actually try flying them, and then come back and tell us experienced Lachesis/Arazu pilots how they're still good ships, eh? I'm interested, since I've flown the ships a lot, I've gone through the numbers with the Trinity changes, and to me it's looking pretty bleak right now. Switching to Rook/Falcon seems to be the only option that makes sense. But hey, I'm sure you'll be able to tell us how these ships rock, now.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:14:00 - [49] Originally by: Thendementhord ECM and "totally", "100%", "always", "lock out multiple ships" in the same sentence? Do a reality check guys... Especially try it on a recon or EW frig... They'll be able to jam them enough to keep them out of the fight. It doesn't mean that they are literally permanently jammed. They may be able to lock something now and then for a few seconds. But, we mean just enough to where they can't really contribute much of anything in the fight.
General Coochie New Justice Minuit.	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:31:00 - [50] When comparing the dampening ships against the ECM ships keep in mind that any ships faster then the lachesis and arazu will catch them very easely as you cant combine locking range reduction and time very good anymore, especially nano fitted ships will own these ships and those arent so rare..., frig sized ships will also pose a great threat as these ships have a crappy tank.
joshmorris Ravenous Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.07 17:13:00 - [51] Originally by: General Coochie When comparing the dampening ships against the ECM ships keep in mind that any ships faster then the lachesis and arazu will catch them very easely as you cant combine locking range reduction and time very good anymore, especially nano fitted ships will own these ships and those arent so rare..., frig sized ships will also pose a great threat as these ships have a crappy tank. Soo true lol , i had a taranis on me ...before i could undamp my target to damp him to get away he got through my shield ... oh and i only got away because he bumped himself 10k off me ... couldnt do that now. Uber idea solves all !!
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:02:00 - [52] Bizump ----------------- Friends Forever
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:04:00 - [53] Originally by: General Coochie When comparing the dampening ships against the ECM ships keep in mind that any ships faster then the lachesis and arazu will catch them very easely as you cant combine locking range reduction and time very good anymore, especially nano fitted ships will own these ships and those arent so rare..., frig sized ships will also pose a great threat as these ships have a crappy tank. tbh I used to slap precision heavies and T2 warriors as anti-frig defence. --- planetary interaction idea!
Derrios Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:31:00 - [54] lach/arazu w/ scan reso damps and rooks/falcons hi ?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:33:00 - [55] Edited by: James Lyrus on 07/12/2007 18:36:22 So, what's the locking range on a BS, with 3 max skilled RSD II's on it? If I whip out EFT, and use T1 damps (pre trinity) in assuming that's 'about' the same as now, it looks to me like that's still reduced it to 10% of it's original range. Now I'm sure someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but ... assuming that number's correct, I don't see the issue. Drops the lock range of your target, RELIABLY to a short enough range that you can keep a point on him just fine, and your gangmates can unload on him just the same. 45km optimal, 70km falloff means at 135km you have a 50% chance of affecting a ship. But at that range, you only need one to stop them locking your snipers. So on a one for one basis, an RSD II is actually about as good as a multispec II, with 3 SDAs on a falcon or rook, at eliminating snipers. And doesn't use up all the ships lowslots to do it. OK, so that number's less, and you need 3 damps to do what 2 did before, but really, what's the big deal? Rook or Falcon never gets 100% lockdown. That's not it's purpose. It's purposes is to even out the odds a bit on a fight, by removing a proportion of the opposition. An arazu gets to guarantee removing a single target. And get a point on them. And do some damage too. Oh, and gets 4 slots of tank (or speed mods) to boot. An arazu still makes a mean 'point' ship, for cloaked recon, getting a point on them, and holding them there, damped and unable to do anything about it. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 18:59:00 - [56] While I understand the frustration of many people (I'm a Caldari specialist, so I've lived with years of progressive nerfs)... something that many people aren't keeping in mind is that sensor boosters are no longer going to be as effective as they once were... because of the nerf to sensor boosters damp ships received an indirect boost. My crusade for faster missiles.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:25:00 - [57] Originally by: James Lyrus Drops the lock range of your target, RELIABLY to a short enough range that you can keep a point on him just fine, and your gangmates can unload on him just the same. No, your gang mates cannot unload on him "just the same". You cannot disable a close range fit ship at all. Not even a little bit. Not a tiny bit. You won't be able to damp any battleship to web range. Quote: 45km optimal, 70km falloff means at 135km you have a 50% chance of affecting a ship. But at that range, you only need one to stop them locking your snipers. Erm... so yeah, how good is it at 180km? When was the last time you saw a sniper fleet at 130km? Seriously? Quote: So on a one for one basis, an RSD II is actually about as good as a multispec II, with 3 SDAs on a falcon or rook, at eliminating snipers. And doesn't use up all the ships lowslots to do it. See range, above. Quote: OK, so that number's less, and you need 3 damps to do what 2 did before, but really, what's the big deal? Eve is a game about extremes. You either disabled someone, or they wtfpwn your damage dealing Deimos. With the "I Megathron's lock range to 18km with my 3 phased muon max skilled double rigged arazu", you're not helping your gang. Sure, you can tackle someone "in relative safety" ... but that doesn't help your gang. Quote: Rook or Falcon never gets 100% lockdown. That's not it's purpose. It's purposes is to even out the odds a bit on a fight, by removing a proportion of the opposition. WTF have you ever fought a rook/falcon? Have you ever flown one? Yeah, I've completely locked down enemy gangs in a blackbird, let alone a Falcon. Those ships are 100% locked down. They're not gonna do anything but twiddle their thumbs or the entirety of the fight. Quote: An arazu gets to guarantee removing a single target. And get a point on them. And do some damage too. Oh, and gets 4 slots of tank (or speed mods) to boot. The Arazu is a close range boat... I dunno if you noticed that. It actually needs the tank/speed. BTW, if you put a point on your Falcon, I am going to laugh at you. You should NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER be in range to put a warp disruptor on someone. Quote: An arazu still makes a mean 'point' ship, for cloaked recon, getting a point on them, and holding them there, damped and unable to do anything about it. TBH a Stiletto or Ares will do that job better. Faster, same warp disruptor, and much more invulnerable than the Arazu. No, I think you simply don't understand the ramifications of this patch to the Gallente recons in small gang combat . I think it's funny how people who don't fly the ship at all are telling us how uber the ship is... sounds about like the Arazu's in line for another nerf from the way you bumpkins are talking. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Tovarishch While I understand the frustration of many people (I'm a Caldari specialist, so I've lived with years of progressive nerfs)... something that many people aren't keeping in mind is that sensor boosters are no longer going to be as effective as they once were... because of the nerf to sensor boosters damp ships received an indirect boost. Except that even a single range based sensor booster and you won't be damping a battleship under 30km. Hell, a single sensor booster on a Rokh makes it dangerous to tackle it with Recon 4 and 3 rigged phased muons... he might actually lock your ass with some careful maneuvering. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:27:00 - [59] Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 07/12/2007 18:36:22 So, what's the locking range on a BS, with 3 max skilled RSD II's on it? If I whip out EFT, and use T1 damps (pre trinity) in assuming that's 'about' the same as now, it looks to me like that's still reduced it to 10% of it's original range. It's not. 20% is closer to the truth. -- Gradient forum
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tovarishch While I understand the frustration of many people (I'm a Caldari specialist, so I've lived with years of progressive nerfs)... something that many people aren't keeping in mind is that sensor boosters are no longer going to be as effective as they once were... because of the nerf to sensor boosters damp ships received an indirect boost. Except that even a single range based sensor booster and you won't be damping a battleship under 30km. Hell, a single sensor booster on a Rokh makes it dangerous to tackle it with Recon 4 and 3 rigged phased muons... he might actually lock your ass with some careful maneuvering. Liang You're ignoring what his lock time will now be as he's taking a penalty to it for using a range script, along with being damped. My crusade for faster missiles.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Tovarishch You're ignoring what his lock time will now be as he's taking a penalty to it for using a range script, along with being damped. No, I'm not. His lock time is exactly what it was if he wasn't being damped. It's hard enough to cram 3x damps on an Arazu, let alone 4 (one for the lock time script). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:50:00 - [62] Targeting range scripts have a -100% scan resolution modifier. So, I'm not sure how what you are saying can be the case. My crusade for faster missiles.
Nybbas Sons of Enelaise Enelaise	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:01:00 - [63] so sad : / give us a module at least that boosts sensor damps effectiveness ; p

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