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MMOs Time for industry regulation?

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Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:38:00 - [1] The release of Trinity has sadly not gone well for CCP, firstly there was the boot.ini fiasco and then shortly after this the huge amount of bugs in POS warfare and other areas became apparent and the GMs issued notices that POS warfare which is a integral gameplay aspect is considered an exploit until fixed which is tantamount to an admission of a broken product, it would be fair to say that if Trinity was any other consumer based product it would subject to product recalls, refunds and possibly compensation claims but this topic is not about Trinity specifically but the whole MMO industry. A recurring theme amongst the posts regarding the Trinity difficulties is "If you think CCP are bad try XXXXXX" and if you look at other MMO games its very true some of the company's behind these games are shambolic and reap huge profits while issuing buggy games with woeful customer support. The MMO industry is worth billions across the globe with countless individual companies and games and accounts for a massive chunk of the entertainment industry yet it is not subject to any kind of industry regulation and in many cases customers can spend thousands in cash and years in play time yet receive zero guarantee or protection, the unique aspects of character development in MMO gaming exacerbate this as players spend real time and real money where as in other game genres you just buy the game and play it and you invest little else but your ú30-$49. Maybe its time for the MMO industry to be regulated by an external and independent body, MMOs EULAs all state that they are a "service provider" the same as telecoms companies and other similar "service providers" so they should be subject to a industry ombudsmen as well. The international aspects of the industry would prove problematic and would need to operate by the local national laws of each country but it could help provide customers with a degree of protection and provide a means of settling disputes. Obviously the types of dispute that they could intervene in would need to be well documented and not for balance issues such as a player upset because his uber item of pwning got nerfed but for issues such as unfair banning or billing problems or in the case of terrible unplayable patches or total game redesigns as in SWGs New game experience. Any thoughts? but please remember this is about MMOs in general. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
Krxon Blade	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:40:00 - [2] Well you got the point BUT, nobody forced you to join, and nobody is forcing you to stay -- EVE offline game
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:42:00 - [3] You guys are looking to much into it .. its a PC game nothing more nothing less, as ^^ no one is forcing you to pay to play have a nice day
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:46:00 - [4] Quote: MMOs Time for industry regulation? Yeah, I really want the same tards who regulate the amount of water my toilet flushes, and the size of the holes in my Swiss cheese to get their grubby paws all over my game. No thanks. _________________________________________________________
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:46:00 - [5] Originally by: F90OEX You guys are looking to much into it .. its a PC game nothing more nothing less, as ^^ no one is forcing you to pay to play have a nice day Originally by: Krxon Blade Well you got the point BUT, nobody forced you to join, and nobody is forcing you to stay No no one forces you just the same as no one forces you into paying for other services or buying other products yet other industries have a regulatory body to protect consumers, the sheer value of the MMO market is huge yet there are no enforceable industry standards or comebacks in cases of bad practice by the service providers. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:48:00 - [6] just lol go look at the star vid in my sig it will cheer you up. Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star!
Boratora Gallente Real Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:55:00 - [7] No. First of all there is no "MMO industry", therefore your entire idea rests on a fallible assumption. I don't see proof that MMOs are somehow distinct from the overall video gaming industry. Do people quit MMOs to pick up a single player/multiplayer game? Of course, all the time. It's an elastic subgenre at best. Regulation should only occur in the economy when the health and safety of the consumer is threatened, or when actions of a company would have the effect of manipulating market mechanisms. Otherwise it's buyer beware. There are so few barriers to exit for you if you do not like the product. You have no contractual obligation to pay. If you don't like it, leave. You're not even out a lot of money. "The MMO industry is worth billions across the globe". In your experience, is anything that spans the globe effectively regulated in the same fashion for reasons other than health or safety (recalls)? Of course not. Why? Let's see how capitalism works. Consumers make purchasing decisions based on the amount of information easily afforded to them. Consumers of computer games (including MMOs) are often internet savvy enough to be able to use a search engine in order to research a product before buying. If you contribute to that information, you are affecting future consumers, which may reduce revenue for CCP and lead to an increase in incentive to QA longer before releasing a product. Granted it is in the industry's best interests to develop guidelines or best practices for releases, but let's not regulate them. That's just ludicrous.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:12:00 - [8] Yea do we really want the united nations regulating MMOs? By what law do regulate them? Do we base in in germany so that no violence would be allowed? Or america where sexual content would be off limits entirely? Or maybe a communist or strict islamic nation with their own censorship and hang ups? Bottom line is the customers that are obliged to regulate their MMO, by playing or not by posting constructive feedback etc. CCP does what it does, every major patch anyone thats played eve for any decent amount of time knows that patches are always a bumpy affair. Tho the boot.ini was a new oops in that reguard, but stuff happens just hopefully they learn from their major blunder. And i know most MMOs go thru gfx updates but most that i have seen are pay expansions and not free to download nor to the degree that ccp went where there is a 150% difference in the old engine vs the new stuff. Now its got bugs and need optimization and leaks fixed but hey it was FREE, so what if it takes a week or three for them to iron out the major ones. And lets also keep in mind that ccp has alot on its plate, trinity, ambulation, faction warfare, things that are going to change eve greatly and add depth to the game and yet as far as i know all these updates are free. So what if they need fixing here and there be happy they arent selling them for 29.99 to 49.99 then i might expect them to be 90% bug free and delayed months. Me i am happy to stay docked in station or log on and chat with friends and in local while long skills cook away, until they sort out some things.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Boratora No. First of all there is no "MMO industry", therefore your entire idea rests on a fallible assumption. I don't see proof that MMOs are somehow distinct from the overall video gaming industry. Do people quit MMOs to pick up a single player/multiplayer game? Of course, all the time. It's an elastic subgenre at best. MMOs are unique from other game genres in two main aspects the fees and the character development, both of these represent a real world investment in MMO services and this is what sets MMOs apart from other computer games Originally by: Boratora Regulation should only occur in the economy when the health and safety of the consumer is threatened, or when actions of a company would have the effect of manipulating market mechanisms. Otherwise it's buyer beware. There are so few barriers to exit for you if you do not like the product. You have no contractual obligation to pay. If you don't like it, leave. You're not even out a lot of money. Industry regulation is not just based on health and safety aspects is also based on the protection of consumers wallets, if someone is charged fees by an ISP yet fail to provide the advertised service and they cannot settle the matter with the company they can go to their countries applicable regulatory body for help in resolving the dispute but if you pay for 12 months subscription to a MMO and they fail to provide the service you are totally at that company's mercy regarding monetary refunds, some company's do most however wont and you have no recourse other than the possibility of extensive legal fees via a court case which is highly impractical. Originally by: Boratora Consumers make purchasing decisions based on the amount of information easily afforded to them. Consumers of computer games (including MMOs) are often internet savvy enough to be able to use a search engine in order to research a product before buying. If you contribute to that information, you are affecting future consumers, which may reduce revenue for CCP and lead to an increase in incentive to QA longer before releasing a product. But would you honestly rather gain opinions from 3rd party blog sites or forum whining instead of a certified independent body? 3rd party opinions and reviews are not always without bias or agenda and what would a substandard MMO provider fear more joebloggs extreme gaming forum or a industry ombudsmen? the ombudsman will always be a much greater incentive for companies to increase standards Originally by: Boratora Granted it is in the industry's best interests to develop guidelines or best practices for releases, but let's not regulate them. That's just ludicrous. Better standards and better customer service is not ludicrous. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:22:00 - [10] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 10/12/2007 03:22:15 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Better standards and better customer service is not ludicrous. Regulations mean worse customer service. Sorry mate. It also means less innovation, slower turnaround on fixes for bugs that slip through the *****s (crac-ks). On games that patch daily with new content, forcing it to be reviewed by some sort of committee would mean less goodies reaching the consumer, less patches and hindered development. If you don't like Eve's QA situation, just leave. --
LvxAeterna GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:26:00 - [11] A regulatory agency? Are you out of your mind? As much as the product sucks right now, an MMO is not a basic utility or service that supports our base standard of living.
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Aeaus on 10/12/2007 03:30:52 MMOs provide a non-essential "service," industries that are regulated are those involved with... - Significant Market Control (Anti-Trust) - Significant environmental & social effects - Standards of Production (Production of Resources Necessary for the Economy) MMOs fall under none of these, just because real money changes hands (in both fees & generally unsanctioned virtual sales) doesn't mean the industry has to regulated by any government.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:31:00 - [13] Heaven forbid we should not be able to play an online game for several days on end. _
Piran Eligius The Merovingians	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:33:00 - [14] My only wish for the MMO industry as a whole is that when they finally shut down the servers for a game they should have to provide some type of single player of home served network version for a handful of servers. At least some type of museum mode so were not stuck with memories and screenshots.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 10/12/2007 03:22:15 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Better standards and better customer service is not ludicrous. Regulations mean worse customer service. Sorry mate. It also means less innovation, slower turnaround on fixes for bugs that slip through the *****s (crac-ks). On games that patch daily with new content, forcing it to be reviewed by some sort of committee would mean less goodies reaching the consumer, less patches and hindered development. If you don't like Eve's QA situation, just leave. This is not just about EVE, in fact I have not been personally affected by any of the issues including the boot.ini as I run vista. By industry standards I'm not referring to some kind of body that sits and reads through game code and decides whats suitable for a game, I am referring to a consumer protection agency that enforces standards in MMO service providers. By the current system its probably quite legal for anyone to setup a MMO game that's basically unplayable trash charge people 3 months subscription and then close the game. This is of course an extreme exaggeration but it highlights the fact that MMO providers can take consumers money yet they provide zero guarantee, a good example of this was SOE with the trials of Obi wan, they took consumers money in pre orders then they dropped the NGE, eventually after much wrangling they did issue refunds but its almost certain that if SWG was not attached to Lucas arts and Sony nobody would have been refunded. Consumers need protection from unscrupulous business practices. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:35:00 - [16] Any regulation of a game like Eve is essentially unenforceable, unless it's Iceland doing to the regulating, which I somehow doubt will ever happen, at least anytime soon. ----- My in Eve Profile
Willie Wiseman	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:36:00 - [17] Outside regulations would in fact make things go much smoother regarding updates and such. With third party regulation there would be no FREE new content or updates as we see today in Eve. CCP would not risk being in violation of the said third party regulations. As you mentioned we do indeed pay for a service, but we are also provided with free content/gfx etc updates. I would much rather wait out a week or so of rough water then have to go to out and pay $39.99 just so I can log in and continue to play the game.
Boratora Gallente Real Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Paulo Damarr MMOs are unique from other game genres in two main aspects the fees and the character development, both of these represent a real world investment in MMO services and this is what sets MMOs apart from other computer games. I disagree. Guildwars is an MMO with no fee. Age of Empires III has MMO-esque character development. Too many loopholes. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Industry regulation is not just based on health and safety aspects is also based on the protection of consumers wallets, if someone is charged fees by an ISP yet fail to provide the advertised service and they cannot settle the matter with the company they can go to their countries applicable regulatory body for help in resolving the dispute but if you pay for 12 months subscription to a MMO and they fail to provide the service you are totally at that company's mercy regarding monetary refunds, some company's do most however wont and you have no recourse other than the possibility of extensive legal fees via a court case which is highly impractical. Nonsense. I bought a dishwasher and it broke a year after its warranty. That was six years. Dishwashers should not break after six years, but it did and while that sucks I'm not turning to any regulatory agency to make my life better. I just won't buy another product from that company nor retailer and will make it quite vocal to my social network. Originally by: Paulo Damarr But would you honestly rather gain opinions from 3rd party blog sites or forum whining instead of a certified independent body? 3rd party opinions and reviews are not always without bias or agenda and what would a substandard MMO provider fear more joebloggs extreme gaming forum or a industry ombudsmen? the ombudsman will always be a much greater incentive for companies to increase standards. There is no greater incentive to a business than profit. And yes, I would, since there is no such thing as certification and no such thing as independent. That entire concept is nonsense. Governments have agendas, be they social or labour market policies. If Gamespot and IGN come down hard on a game, people hear and respond. If you get your opinion from a single source you earn whatever befalls you. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Better standards and better customer service is not ludicrous. Indeed. Assumptions that regulation will somehow improve service are ludicrous however. Air travel and telecoms are two regulated industry, both with FOUL customer service.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:49:00 - [19] SERIOUS BUSINESS. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Slayton Ford STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:53:00 - [20] Since CCP is Iclandic, how would the US or the EU or the ChiComs regulate EvE? --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 03:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Boratora Nonsense. I bought a dishwasher and it broke a year after its warranty. That was six years. Dishwashers should not break after six years, but it did and while that sucks I'm not turning to any regulatory agency to make my life better. I just won't buy another product from that company nor retailer and will make it quite vocal to my social network. A dishwasher is a very good example actually its a unnecessary luxury that's a consumers choice to buy. In your case I'm guessing 6 years is way outside of any warranty both standard or privately purchased as most kitchen appliances come with 12 months warranty and you can buy another 4 years protection to a total of 5 years, but what if you just paid ú500 for a new dishwasher and one week later it broke and you then find out that you are not entitled to anything? no money back and no repairs under warranty? its a fairly safe bet you wouldn't be very happy but in this case there are comebacks as you can go to your national trading standards and get help in dealing with the matter. But MMOs can charge consumers yet they are not legally required to provide guarantees. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:02:00 - [22] Guild Wars while a good game is s pseudo mmo with many tricks to limit the server load and everything is instanced. Plus if you want all the titles and skills you need to buy each expansion, or the new skill packs from their store. Sure they do special events open to anyone with a basic account and some content but any major content is definately pay to play. And other that sorrows furnace i cant recall really any other major content updates outside of that, but then i dont play gw religiously. One thing i think CCP should do is draft volunteers to play on sing for event tests, give them alt characters with max skills and access to all ships and equipment and services and have them login certain times to test features and help find bugs. Instead of the if you feel like logging in test server and do whatever you want. I think they could use the test server to better effect and use it to beta test patches because most people just login to look at the new gfx or test setups or certain changes. What sing really needs to be besides a server for the curious is a server for real shakedown tests and feature testing also. But unless you ask for help and ask for real bug testers with goals in mind i doubt that sing will ever be used to its full and real potential and could make eve patches better if it ever is.
Darken Two Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Originally by: Boratora Nonsense. I bought a dishwasher and it broke a year after its warranty. That was six years. Dishwashers should not break after six years, but it did and while that sucks I'm not turning to any regulatory agency to make my life better. I just won't buy another product from that company nor retailer and will make it quite vocal to my social network. A dishwasher is a very good example actually its a unnecessary luxury that's a consumers choice to buy. In your case I'm guessing 6 years is way outside of any warranty both standard or privately purchased as most kitchen appliances come with 12 months warranty and you can buy another 4 years protection to a total of 5 years, but what if you just paid ú500 for a new dishwasher and one week later it broke and you then find out that you are not entitled to anything? no money back and no repairs under warranty? its a fairly safe bet you wouldn't be very happy but in this case there are comebacks as you can go to your national trading standards and get help in dealing with the matter. But MMOs can charge consumers yet they are not legally required to provide guarantees. LOL you think dishwashers are an unnecessary luxury, but you insist that MMO's are somehow and important service. Get this straight mate. MMORPG's are not a service, they are a product that is neither important nor essential. That is why you will never see any sort of regulation in this industry. As a matter of fact, the only outside influences that affect a gaming company are the following. Investor pressure to do things a certain way. ESRB ratings which means they ahve to regulate content to cater to specific demographics and age groups. Other than these two factors, you cannot expect any sort fo regulation on this industry ebcause like I said, this is not a service, it's a product and that too a non-essential one. ISP's are regulated because the internet is a communications medium and is considered an essential service. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:30:00 - [24] Regulation = bad
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Lilian Long on 10/12/2007 04:33:49 Edited by: Lilian Long on 10/12/2007 04:31:55 EVE is not something essential for your living like electricity or infrastructure that needs to be regulated somehow. EVE is just some optional entertainment. You don't need to play it. Regulation can have a bad impact on a game like EVE. I can imagine lots of people running there, who are unhappy, because they got scammed or ganked and lost lots of isk. They'll argue that they had a bad gaming experience that CCP doesn't protect their investment e.g. by allowing scamming or suicide ganking in high sec and that they didn't get the service they expected. I doubt that that regulation instance would tell them to 'stfu and leave the game, if they are not happy with the game rules', which would be the right response in such a case. So I think I rather prefer no regulation and live with the risks.
Iracham Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:32:00 - [26] Broken cars kill people, Broken airplanes kill people, Baby toys with lead potentially render people permanently ********, Broken interweb spaceships make people sad, angry, perhaps even bored, but not dead.
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:55:00 - [27] Industry regulation = dead industry. Thanks for trying to ruin what's left of it. EVE History Wiki
Rylan Haltre Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.12.10 04:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Paulo Damarr The release of Trinity has sadly not gone well for CCP, firstly there was the boot.ini fiasco and then shortly after this the huge amount of bugs in POS warfare and other areas became apparent and the GMs issued notices that POS warfare which is a integral gameplay aspect is considered an exploit until fixed which is tantamount to an admission of a broken product, it would be fair to say that if Trinity was any other consumer based product it would subject to product recalls, refunds and possibly compensation claims but this topic is not about Trinity specifically but the whole MMO industry. A recurring theme amongst the posts regarding the Trinity difficulties is "If you think CCP are bad try XXXXXX" and if you look at other MMO games its very true some of the company's behind these games are shambolic and reap huge profits while issuing buggy games with woeful customer support. The MMO industry is worth billions across the globe with countless individual companies and games and accounts for a massive chunk of the entertainment industry yet it is not subject to any kind of industry regulation and in many cases customers can spend thousands in cash and years in play time yet receive zero guarantee or protection, the unique aspects of character development in MMO gaming exacerbate this as players spend real time and real money where as in other game genres you just buy the game and play it and you invest little else but your ú30-$49. Maybe its time for the MMO industry to be regulated by an external and independent body, MMOs EULAs all state that they are a "service provider" the same as telecoms companies and other similar "service providers" so they should be subject to a industry ombudsmen as well. The international aspects of the industry would prove problematic and would need to operate by the local national laws of each country but it could help provide customers with a degree of protection and provide a means of settling disputes. Obviously the types of dispute that they could intervene in would need to be well documented and not for balance issues such as a player upset because his uber item of pwning got nerfed but for issues such as unfair banning or billing problems or in the case of terrible unplayable patches or total game redesigns as in SWGs New game experience. Any thoughts? but please remember this is about MMOs in general. Dude? Seriously get a life. Most people don't keep paying money for stuff they don't like. If the service sucks, quit! You have the power! Only whiners involve government. Freedom of Choice is a great thing, to bad for me so many seem to be out to ruin it.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.10 05:11:00 - [29] Some of the posters here may find this quite usefull. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100%
Darken Two Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.10 05:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Some of the posters here may find this quite usefull. Yea insults sure make people agree with you more. You're just making yourself look like a moron mate. Quit digging. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

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