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Hans Hoff
Mine n Mellow
1
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
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Sicex
48
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Have you read any other threads before posting?
TL:DR OF THE FORUMS: Eve is cruel, people don't like that, people cry for something easier, we tell them to go play something easier. |
Keno Skir
84
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah i agree. EvE is hard and most often too complicated for the very young to understand fully. It takes a special sort of dedication to play this game since most/all goals are set by yourself and there is no end other than what you decide the end to be.
Plus we dont ride around the stations on glowing pink lions yet, i play this game because it keeps all the whiny 13yr old WoW dweebs out of my face and also because the training system works much better imho. The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1332
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
No theories, just facts. Knowledge about this is laid out on this and the old forums.
In short:
CCP ****** up bigtime, people rioted (Google: Jita riots) and unsubbed, CCP got their ass kicked, Crucible came to make it better.
The End. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
130
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago.
Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline.
I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish.
The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth. |
malaire
198
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nice graphs here: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Yep, growth seems to have stopped 3 years ago.
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
Hans Hoff
Mine n Mellow
1
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
I play 4 accounts simultaneously, Some people play more,some play less. In effect the player base is much less than what we see online. If I couldn't make Billions then I certainly wouldn't have multiple accounts. The growth and development of Eve depends on revenue so I am slightly concerned that no growth would lead to no development and that the days of the game are numbered. And if it's TL then DR and don't reply. Thanks |
malaire
198
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline. I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish. The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth. I wouldn't say last 3 years has "steadily increased", it's more like sicsac sometimes going up, sometimes down. New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
12
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Whole bunch of reasons really, here's just a few of them:
Overall global economic situation means on average people have less disposable income for games, so fewer alts of old players and people less willing to jump into a new game.
In the last 12 months CCP have done a pretty good job of driving away their existing playerbase and generating negative publicity that will put off new players, resulting in the net loss of players. (Slightly reversed perhaps with curcible but to soon to tell lasting effects.)
Many people eventually tire of EVE either due to having reached endgame in however they choose to play EVE and not being interested in other paths to take, as the playerbase ages overall this becomes steadily more of an issue, increasing the churn of people simply bored/tired of the politics and general bullcrap that accompanies so much of the game.
There's only ever a certain size of niche for a game like EVE, it's entirely possible that CCP have reached the bulk of that potential playerbase and it's now somewhat slower getting to the remaining people that might try the game (let alone actually stay), resulting in less genuine newbies coming in (and hence net decrease in players due to increased losses as above).
Does any of that mean EVE is dying? Not yet, if CCP can make sure they keep heading away from FULLRETARDMODE you could well see some of those that left in sheer frustration at CCP returning, and a more general positive view of EVE on the intertubes could help return EVE to slow but steady growth. I don't however see us returning to the crazy period from around '07 onwards where EVE bumped the PCU by 20k in a couple of years, manly due to the frist reason I listed above, new accounts afterall have to be run by cc for several months in general before your average jonny newbie can even consider PLEXing. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1778
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 11:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
EVE isn't going to skyrocket in popularity, because you get punished for being stupid with actual losses and achieving meaningful things isn't guranteed in this game. You have to be smart or work hard to achieve things and play with other people. This will likely always keep the sub numbers relatively low compared to more casual friendly MMOs. EVE is also old game in a sense, so it can be easy to overlook by people wanting to play a new MMO. They'll rather pin all their hopes on the next new MMO release no matter what it is. They play it for a few months and either stay with it or get bored and start preparing to flock to the next new title.
The positive aspect of this is that from a year by year perspective EVE is still stable or growing slowly unlike all the competition. Even WoW has taken a nosedive this year and every other mainstream MMO has started way above EVE, but ended below EVE after their first year had ended. So while EVE isn't the most popular MMO nor will it ever be one, it has kept enough people interested and has even managed to grow longer than pretty much any other MMO on the market. Considering CCP has actually started developing EVE again with full steam and is releasing DUST soon, I don't see any reason why the playerbase couldn't even start growing again. |
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
77
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
My old "home" in '05 used to have no one in it, it was a high sec system with lots of stations (full range of facilities), agents, asteroid belts, and a 2/10 dungeon that was so dead I could run it whenever I felt like it. I moved out a long time ago when it started getting too crowded for me (around 4-5 other players in local).
I've been there since a few times over the last couple of years, just to see how the old system was doing, and every time there were 20-30 people in it at least.
EVE has gotten pretty big over the years and doing fairly well for an old game I think. |
Hans Hoff
Mine n Mellow
1
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
There are seasonal variations, for instance when it's summer in the US. Dad has to take the poison dwarf and her hellspawn on vacation, only then realises that he hadn't fueled his POS before leaving, so everyone is going to have a great time. Then England gets its one sunny Day and everything stops. Usually on the motorways for hour after hour while people decide whether it's time to turn back yet. These events record as soft peaks and troughs but the overall picture on the EvE status site seems to be a steady 48K max over the years. |
Keno Skir
84
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hainnz wrote:EVE has gotten pretty big over the years and doing fairly well for an old game I think.
Agreed, also Destination Skillqueue the way you used to spam everyone on the forum with post "likes" even though you never read any of them makes me think you're an attention farming douche, and as such i scanned over your post assuming it contained nothing but drivel.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
225
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
You should read the forums each now and then.
But the short version is that everyone has got different theories on "why" EVE growth is stalling while its target audience* keeps growing.
My own personal theory is that EVE 's abbility to keep people subscribed with the current endgame content already topped with the demise of BoB and the end of uberalliance warfare, and since then the lack of additional endgame is balancing the input of newcomers with the bleeding of people who just grow bored and unsubscribe.
*EVE's target: experienced PC players in their 30s |
J Kunjeh
366
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Posted - 2012.02.04 11:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Yeah i agree. EvE is hard and most often too complicated for the very young to understand fully. It takes a special sort of dedication to play this game since most/all goals are set by yourself and there is no end other than what you decide the end to be.
Translation: to get any real satisfaction out of Eve, you must be unemployed and living in your grandma's basement because it required 10 hours/day and a job and social life are difficult to fit in for the truly dedicated Eve player. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
559
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 11:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
You do know that the info you showed say only how many people is online. You don't have access to the "player base" numbers QEN if i remember right. Maby it's good to ask CCP Diagoras on Twitter, he may anvser it ? |
Hans Hoff
Mine n Mellow
1
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Posted - 2012.02.04 12:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
[quote=Indahmawar Fazmarai] Quote:[You should read the forums each now and then. Do you know how hard it is to read the forums? Things move that fast if you are not a forum troll and live on here then within a couple of days things get away from you. I only come one here to share ideas with people who I think could be interested. If I duplicated a post. MY bad sry. A good flaming warms the bed. G'nite guys.
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Liam Mirren
224
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Posted - 2012.02.04 12:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marketing/management rule #1: If you're not growing then you're failing and might as well jump off a cliff as the end is nigh. There's a reason why management folks are mostly idiots.
There's a view valid explanations; bad economy so ppl waste less isk on nonsense, fallout due to CCP having been idiots for a 2-3 year period. Actually, given CCP's recent past and the current economic issues I'd say they're doing pretty damn well compared to others. Also, why do you NEED to grow? If you're sticking to being niche (which is a good thing) you can do just fine. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Firh
Duct Solutions
0
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Posted - 2012.02.04 12:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Because,
EVE ***** all over lowsec and caters only to highsec bears and the huge 0.0 alliances.
It takes too long to get into the game, both in terms of SP and player skill. The amount of time it takes to be a potent PvP Battleship pilot could be cut in half. This is coming from someone who's already got the necessary skills. As for the learning curve it's not so much that the game is difficult but rather that things like aggression timers will be learned the hard way unless someone tells you about it beforehand.
The community is hostile and griefing has become one of the only profitable forms of PvP.
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ShipToaster
131
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Posted - 2012.02.04 12:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Word of mouth about EVE has been bad for the last few years.
I am on some forums that are not primarily gaming forums and the consensus opinion on these is that EVE is a game that is going downhill. No one is enthusiastic about EVE and no one says you must try it or it is a great game and at best you say EVE is ok. Incursion math? part 1 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=678400#post678400 part 2 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=698871#post698871 |
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Hans Hoff
Mine n Mellow
2
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Posted - 2012.02.04 12:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
I wonder if there has actually been an increase in players and yet a decrease in multiple accounts. Before these graphic "Improvements" I was able to run 6 accounts simultaneously, now my computer struggles with 4, and every few hours the card crashes, locking the whole comp. My computer is quite a decent quad core with a 1 gig graphics card so I can imagine users with lower end machines having to abandon secondary accounts or even quit playing EvE all together. There is definately a good market for EvE as long as CCP don't disqualify themselves by having to high system requirements. |
Keno Skir
86
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Posted - 2012.02.04 13:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Translation: to get any real satisfaction out of Eve, you must be unemployed and living in your grandma's basement because it required 10 hours/day and a job and social life are difficult to fit in for the truly dedicated Eve player.
Just because you live in grannys basement even though you're 30 doesnt mean everyone is a pants as you at arranging their life.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Erisia Malaclypse
The Discordian Echo
0
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Posted - 2012.02.04 15:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
As other people have pointed out, if CCP were interested in increasing player numbers to 'hundreds of thousands' they would have to make Empire truly 'safe'.
This will never happen as they don't seem to care about making more money by doing that. Why bother when they can sell us monocles instead?
The uniqueness of this game is that it is full of wanktards who like making other people's online lives miserable because they get bullied at their school/office/prison and CCP prefer to keep it that way |
ShipToaster
131
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 15:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Erisia Malaclypse wrote:As other people have pointed out, if CCP were interested in increasing player numbers to 'hundreds of thousands' they would have to make Empire truly 'safe'. This will never happen as they don't seem to care about making more money by doing that. Why bother when they can sell us monocles instead? The uniqueness of this game is that it is full of wanktards who like making other people's online lives miserable because they get bullied at their school/office/prison and CCP prefer to keep it that way
If they did make empire fully safe then a number of people would quit. How many? Who knows. EVE is already being rebranded as a game for pussies so maybe :ccp: have ran the numbers and decided HK Online is a more profitable option.
Why wont this ******* signature die?
It wont clear. Another bug. How many bugs are in this ******* forum? |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3087
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 15:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Arent we nearing the half million mark soonish?
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1780
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 16:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Arent we nearing the half million mark soonish?
The logon numbers suggest stagnation. We had around 350k subs before incarna and I don't think we had a 40% jump in sub numbers this year after that. In fact I'd be mildly surprised if the numbers didn't go down this year. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
330
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 16:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
As others have mentioned, EVE started hemorrhaging customers after Incarna was released (Summer of Rage, Jita riots, monoclegate, etc).
Crucible was a step in the right direction, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a lackluster expansion thrown together in 6 weeks, instead of 6 months. Crucible stopped the hemorrhaging, but because it wasn't a "real" expansion the healing has yet to begin. EVE will not return to its slow and steady growth until at the very soonest the next expansion full expansion. |
Eternum Praetorian
Black Ops Trade Group
487
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Posted - 2012.02.04 17:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I wonder if there has actually been an increase in players and yet a decrease in multiple accounts.
Multiple account holders have been on the rise for years, which suggests that the player base may actually be far less then you think. Also, people like to think "Oh eve is so hard and we are the select few who can figure out how to play it well," because it strokes the ego. The equally legitimate alternative to that statement, is "EVE is boring". A sizable portion of the people that I encounter in game claim boredom at least half of the time, if not more, which further supports this latter assertion over the prior.
I am bored right now. Which is why I am posting on these forums while watching Stargate SG-1, instead of playing the game. Reallocate funds for Icelandic air fare to developing an integrated player input function in the UI. Then talk directly to the customers with polls to collect demographics and game preferences
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ACESsiggy
VC Academy
19
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Posted - 2012.02.04 17:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline.
At what, 1% every year? |
Ghoest
244
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
delete Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
754
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
umm eve is growing but it is a niche game and its going to stay that way.
Also - people work, - sleep in -have families
of course you arent going to find 50k people on at 0900 GMT. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2362
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
I grow older each day...
However, it does grow, at least in characters
CCP Diagoras: "Jan 2012: 97,892 characters created....And 16,744 characters deleted in Jan 2012."
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3088
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 16:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I grow older each day...
However, it does grow, at least in characters
CCP Diagoras: "Jan 2012: 97,892 characters created....And 16,744 characters deleted in Jan 2012."
70,000 pod pilots have yet to outlive thier usefulness.
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Conrad Makbure
Division One Security
7
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Posted - 2012.02.05 16:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Erisia Malaclypse wrote:As other people have pointed out, if CCP were interested in increasing player numbers to 'hundreds of thousands' they would have to make Empire truly 'safe'. This will never happen as they don't seem to care about making more money by doing that. Why bother when they can sell us monocles instead? The uniqueness of this game is that it is full of wanktards who like making other people's online lives miserable because they get bullied at their school/office/prison and CCP prefer to keep it that way If they did make empire fully safe then a number of people would quit. How many? Who knows. EVE is already being rebranded as a game for pussies so maybe :ccp: have ran the numbers and decided HK Online is a more profitable option.
"rebranded as a game for pussies" - excuse me man, but EVE will never be the game for 'pussies', that's what other MMO's are for. I won't name the specific ones, but anyway, EVE will never be a 'pussies' game. Even if they do buff CONCORD to the point where they smack down a ganker before they can get out 100 points of damage, Empire technically, still won't be safe and some threat will always be there.
There's the Wardec in it's current form and small corporations who want to build a POS have to be smart about it because it will always get attacked. A POS is a big frickin deal. |
gfldex
314
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 17:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
There is more then one reason, that's for sure. Here a few:
- alarm clock ops are not fun - timer based pvp is not fun - shooting structures are not fun - PvP means you are online when your IRC/jabber client makes a funky sound, AFK alliances are AFK in general - being in a terribad corp as a new player is not fun - realising that EVE is a highly competitive game is not fun for those who don't want to be challenged - not understanding why you keep losing ships to NPCs is not fun - the lack of a handbook that explains things is not fun (and the reason for the point above) - having a bugged tutorial (why does the alien ship wont spawn) is not fun - there is competition now in the form of perpetuum (it's EVE on planets) - average income in the target markets for EVE are dropping and high youth unemployment can't be helpful either - EVE keeps rising the bar for the hardware you need to run it, your trusty ol' notebook wont cut it, see the point above - CCP stopped on adding new gameplay, instead keeps reusing old gameplay under new names - the stuff that got added (PI, shooting the same sleepers over and over again) is not overly hot - income from carebearing keeps growing and as a result players don't have to be online as much as they used to
EDIT: There are quite a few reasons to quit the game. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
230
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 17:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I grow older each day...
However, it does grow, at least in characters
CCP Diagoras: "Jan 2012: 97,892 characters created....And 16,744 characters deleted in Jan 2012."
Characters created with a 60-day trial just before the January 24th mark, please? EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
35
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
I honestly like the game at its current size, it could grow a little more but I'd rather have a more complex game instead of something like Runescape where being good is just a matter of having the right weapons. |
Z'kaar Quasar
Shadows of Golgothan Fields
0
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
Boring, second job, you work your ass off for some ******, just like real world. |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
You should read the forums each now and then. But the short version is that everyone has got different theories on "why" EVE growth is stalling while its target audience* keeps growing. My own personal theory is that EVE 's abbility to keep people subscribed with the current endgame content already topped with the demise of BoB and the end of uberalliance warfare, and since then the lack of additional endgame is balancing the input of newcomers with the bleeding of people who just grow bored and unsubscribe. *EVE's target: experienced PC players in their 30s
My personal thought is that 2009 was about the time that folks realized that Null was for War, not empire building, not ISK making but for war. The people who were into large scale empire building drifted away from the game and took a bunch of the supporting community infrastructure with them.
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Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
394
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
people play eve in cycles. i'l quit one day, another will resub but i'l come back in a month? 2? 6 months? a year? who knows. people always seem to come back. its a matter of keeping expansions good enough that people rejoin and stay for a year or 2. |
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Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
77
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
One thing I think might turn people off the game before starting it is a quick browsing of the forums and gauging the state of the community. The EVE community is incredibly self-centered, self-destructive, and overly hostile to new people or other's that don't play the game as they want them to play it. You can browse GD and see example after example of this. I'm not talking about hostility with certain facets of the game, I mean outright hostility and attacks against groups of players. When you constantly tell people to GTFO and play WOW they will, taking their revenue with them.
Then there are the attempts by one group of players to completely destroy the play style of other groups of players for whatever excuse. This leads to more people leaving the game. People stay out of low sec because the people that inhabit it simply want to kill whoever for their epeen boards and have engaged in a full onslaught to kill and change the play styles of others to force them into their kill zones (Incursion). People in 0.0 want to horde all the isk in the game and have engaged in campaigns to kill off play styles in high sec and wh (i.e. removing ABC).
Then there is the endless finger pointing at each other for the reason the game's prices have inflated. With each finger point comes a claim to destroy and remove that perceived "isk faucet". If someone is doing an activity and play/pay the game for that activity then an attack on that play style will not be perceived favorably; actual changes or removal as suggested by other players will result in more people leaving.
My point is the EVE community is self destructive in nature. Each group is out to kill and take from other groups. Sure you call this harsh and to HTFU but in reality it leaves the game capped with a certain type of person willing to play the game and not likely to draw new people. |
Fer DeLance
PERONOSPOROS
0
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Posted - 2012.02.05 22:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
The game hasn't really moved foward in the last 2-3 years. Yes, new ships and modules have been introduced, but after all, they do mostly what was done before, just in a different, or a better, or an easier, or a cheaper way. What difference would it make for a 2-3 years old player to save isk and buy a Talos, and not just pay a few iskies more and buy a more durable Mega or Hyperion? Sure it would be good for a change, sure it will be fun for a couple of months, but it's again the same old thing.
So old players get bored and new players get socked by the complexity of the game. For EVE to grow, CCP needs to both make it a lot easier for new players to beggin, and a lot more interesting for old players to stay.
Why not make it that there are ships, modules, or even areas of EVE that need the character to be of certain age to access? Or that is takes combined skills, time, missions completed, security status reached etc ect, to unlock certain abilities, or skils and modules? I may not be describing this correctly, what i want to say, is give old players some long-term goals to achive, either PVE goals or even PVP goals.
And fix the stupid Neutal RR thing. As long as it exists i have sworn to never talk about EVE to anyone new. I mean it...
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
137
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 22:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
At the same time as the Jita tantrums over vanity items, there was a huge bait and switch nerf to null sec Anoms. When we were given the Dominion patch a few years ago, Sov mechanics were flipped on thier ear.
I don't know if you were well in to the null game when that happened but previous to that you simply needed to have a POS up and a claim for Sov. After it we got our PI and Dust motives, TCU and I-Hub. I-Hub upgrades were expensive and time consuming. Just as the rewards started to kick in, CCP nerfed it down to what we have now.
At the time of the nerf the numbers of login were in fact steady 22 hrs a day 40K and up. Null was pretty busy, you could see it on the maps. People were playing all of EVE all the time. Then came said nerf and monoclegate has been a red herring ever since in an attempt to conceal the fact that the game was truly at end game and it wasn't pretty. As for the 40K login all the time, that stopped and we are now at 2008 numbers again. CCP threw 15% of thier subscription under the bus in an attempt to play thier 514 card and reset EVE in a way that didn't flat out say, you lose all your stuff because it stays in assets. I'm sure since the anom nerf, trillions and tens of trillions were lost to hostile lock down and people saw this all fro what it was and left for Skyrim, SW-TOR, some to Perpetuum, they scattered.
CCP were running business as usual but players had seen that movie before and it didn't work out. Now CCP have an 8 year old game with mediocre subs and no chance of ever recruiting to peak numbers. It was the sunset moment for EVE. People will try and troll and derail this and turn it in to a tinfoil hat thread but EVE is now on the decline and I don't see CCP having true motive to turn it around.
Live by the sword, CCP. You know the rest. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4812
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 22:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
For reference: daily PCUs since Incarna.
Highlights of note to spot: the dips from goon ice interdiction, the release of the winter AAA titles, the Christmas/new-years holiday; and the peaks from 4th of July and the (U.S.) Labour Day. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
319
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 22:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP wasted a couple years catering towards carebears by inserting new forms of PvE instead of focusing on the emergent PvP aspect of EVE that draws in the majority of new players both then and now |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ultimately because it's not all that fun to play. Personally I enjoy talking about EVE way more than I normally do playing it. Conceptually it's the most interesting MMO out there, but in practice it's another unfinished Sandbox MMO where most development in the last few years has been wasted on stuff most existing players never wanted in the first place.
|
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
317
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:CCP wasted a couple years catering towards carebears by inserting new forms of PvE instead of focusing on the emergent PvP aspect of EVE that draws in the majority of new players both then and now notemptyquoting...
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:CCP wasted a couple years catering towards carebears by inserting new forms of PvE instead of focusing on the emergent PvP aspect of EVE that draws in the majority of new players both then and now
80% of playerbase is PvE
PvP isnt feasible to new players due to thier lack of understanding of mechanics and lack of skills to fit and boost ship attributes. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Because the game advertises open pvp and then gives too much protection from it. The game suffers from what every pvp game suffers from. Devs catering to the game wrecking carebear. So a mish-mosh of systems are developed that try and cater to both the bear and the viper and fail to deliver to either. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4812
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:80% of playerbase is PvE Not even close. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 23:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
DUST will spread EVEs story and culture to a lot more people, and perhaps a percentage of DUST players will make EVE accounts to play casually.
But i think its unlikely DUSTS players will be hardcore PvP, thats why they play DUST.
FW still has potential to be a key feature, particularly for people who want casual PvP, or people wanting to learn PvP. It has never realized its potential and is something CCP could turn around in days if they so chose. |
Shepherd Steelringer
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
Has anyone mentioned skills?
A lot of new players log on and think (whether it is true or not) that it is going to take 2-4 years to get competent, 6 years to get 50% skill base of 2006 vets, 18 years to get to 75% skill base of same vets.
Discovering this perceived disadvantage can be a major turn off. Statistically it's true I guess, although skill in EVE can be measured in a lot of different ways.
Then add in the cost of subscribing for those time frames.
The way EVE handles skills has pros and cons. One being that your stats are not increasing the more you play, so new players cannot 'farm' skill points by playing heavily and, in theory, play a bit of catch up.
And maybe if they made a tutorial on angular velocity, radial velocity, tracking and range, new players would get more involved with the complexity of combat. It's not "alot". It's not "allot". It's "a lot". Two words.
Congratulations. You just levelled up in real life. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
138
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Because the game advertises open pvp and then gives too much protection from it. The game suffers from what every pvp game suffers from. Devs catering to the game wrecking carebear. So a mish-mosh of systems are developed that try and cater to both the bear and the viper and fail to deliver to either.
I'd agree but there isn't enough demand for true FFA PvP and while PvE games might "destroy" true FFA, Griefers cripple it as well. You see it in the scorched earth wars of EVE. It's not enough to beat someone, they need to be exterminated in an almost genocidal fashion. In the spirit of sandbox, CCP have yet to restrain this but in the interest of EVE, players have yet to control themself. Exceptions being -A- who did allow an establishment to return for the sake of the game and the benefit in the long term. They can do light roams in Provi and have pew pew because they "took a risk" and allowed NRDS to repopulate. The same can't be said for many entities.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4812
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:11:00 -
[54] - Quote
Shepherd Steelringer wrote:The way EVE handles skills has pros and cons. One being that your stats are not increasing the more you play, so new players cannot 'farm' skill points by playing heavily and, in theory, play a bit of catch up. GǪthe GÇÿproGÇÖ side being that, due to how skills work, GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ isn't really an applicable concept to EVE.
Not that this fact helps with the perception, granted, due to the ingrained preconceptions that are bred through countless other games where levels and XP and catching up does matterGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:12:00 -
[55] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:80% of playerbase is PvE Not even close.
In Q4-2010 QEN numbers where stated at
High-Sec - 79.61% Low-Sec - 6.68% NULL-Sec - 11.26% W-Space - 2.45%
Granted numbers might have changed since then, but i doubt by much.
Perhaps you should have done some research before posting. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4812
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:In Q4-2010 QEN numbers where stated at
High-Sec - 79.61% Low-Sec - 6.68% NULL-Sec - 11.26% W-Space - 2.45%
Granted numbers might have changed since then, but i doubt by much. For one, they have indeed changed. Highsec is down to 66% according to numbers that CCP Diagoras have been spreading, and just like the QEN, it counts characters, not players. From there on, it's probably safe to pretty much double any low/nullsec numbers due to alts belonging to one and the same player.
For another, highsec Gëá PvE. Highsec sees some of this game's most fierce PvP, so the highsec number isn't indicative of any kind of preference for PvE among those who place their characters there.
So no, 80% of the player base being PvE is not even close. Half that number might be a more likely estimate, and even that is probably a bit high once you add in all the non-combat PvP.
You see, I've actually done my research, unlike you. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:80% of playerbase is PvE Not even close. In Q4-2010 QEN numbers where stated at High-Sec - 79.61% Low-Sec - 6.68% NULL-Sec - 11.26% W-Space - 2.45% Granted numbers might have changed since then, but i doubt by much. Perhaps you should have done some research before posting.
And those stats do not mean what you are trying to imply they do. I love pvp. I love the market. I hate playing grunt to null politics. I prefer hisec congestion.
<-- Hisec dweller that wants open pvp. Gate camps and local chat intel need some tweaking but I want real war dec mechanics and open pvp. |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:28:00 -
[58] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Because the game advertises open pvp and then gives too much protection from it. The game suffers from what every pvp game suffers from. Devs catering to the game wrecking carebear. So a mish-mosh of systems are developed that try and cater to both the bear and the viper and fail to deliver to either.
So true, EVE can't successfully cater to both groups of players. It's a recipe for failure. But alas more failure is likely what's coming because CCP thinks they can produce miracles..CSM meeting minutes wrote: The broad scope of future iterations of the War system is to cater to people that want to do wars, as a profession, and it should cater to people that donGÇÖt want to do wars.
As for DUST I don't really get it. Granted, I haven't read much in the way of details, but I'm missing what will attract console players to play CCPs FPS over all the others already on the market. As to PC gamers, well Planetside 2 will be out relatively soon and I doubt DUST will be any match, I don't think it's even going to be offered on the PC is it?
The one thing CCP have that no one else has is a Spaceship Sandbox MMO built around player conflict, but they either ignore it (Incarna/WiS, DUST, Vampires etc) or **** on it (CONCORD buffs, Wardec nerfs, Incursions etc) |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
320
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
If I could spike other people's colonies with cubic metres of space-meth and sani sabik blood raiders through their POCOs i would love PI |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 00:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:In Q4-2010 QEN numbers where stated at
High-Sec - 79.61% Low-Sec - 6.68% NULL-Sec - 11.26% W-Space - 2.45%
Granted numbers might have changed since then, but i doubt by much. For one, they have indeed changed. Highsec is down to 66% according to numbers that CCP Diagoras have been spreading, and just like the QEN, it counts characters, not players. From there on, it's probably safe to pretty much double any low/nullsec numbers due to alts belonging to one and the same player. For another, highsec Gëá PvE. Highsec sees some of this game's most fierce PvP, so the highsec number isn't indicative of any kind of preference for PvE among those who place their characters there. So no, 80% of the player base being PvE is not even close. Half that number might be a more likely estimate, and even that is probably a bit high once you add in all the non-combat PvP. You see, I've actually done my research, unlike you.
Then post links for your reference please, otherwise its all just speculation. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4813
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 01:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Then post links for your reference please, otherwise its all just speculation. 67 percent of >5m SP chars are in highsec. Note characters GÇö not accounts, and certainly not players.
Out of a total of 745k characters (which fits nicely with the 350+ accounts and age-old average of just over 2 characters per account), only 24 percent of those characters (177k) run missions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 01:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
Hmm, fair enough, i was wrong. |
Ira Theos
Viziam Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 03:03:00 -
[63] - Quote
Eve isn't growing because EVE doesn't offer ANYTHING for new players. Not one shred of the game is available to new players.
What about PVE you say? PVE is exists only to support the core game economy. What about PVP in the market? That exists to facilitate the EVE core game economy. What about mining, industry, etc? More core game support. What about WH? Newbs in WH? A humorous suggestion.
Oh, excuse me. I forgot FW, but that's dead from what I hear and no surprise. Why? Well it's pretty obvious to me, but then I've only been trying to play this wretched heap for six years (and that time only because it has been the only game in it's genre).
The real problem is definitional. What is EVE about? What is it's real attraction?
While there are many potential subplots in EVE, the advertised core of the game is about establishing territorial ownership of sovereign space in Zero. A great sweeping theme.
So why does it not attract? The answer lies in what is necessary to plant your flag and accomplish the end goal of "Empire in Zero".
Now most of you here begin to nod your head in agreement and begin your lectures on the importance of coordination, organization, propagandizing, planning and execution on a massive scale that makes most players weep, and in a perfect world, you would be correct. But the world is not perfect and is filled with all manner of undesireable vermin that inhabit the internet.
No, unfortunately, you would be wrong, because due to the verminous infestation, EVE is about superior numbers and that is all.
* Superior numbers of players via ONLINE CLUBS, * Superior numbers of logistics in ingame resources via BOTTING AND RMT, and * Superior numbers in resources that are EXTERNAL TO THE GAME, but necesessary to exert control.
The average new subscriber stays in EVE just long enough to realize this and then leaves. Barely enough stay to maintain subscriber numbers. It will stay this way until CCP decides that they can make more money by ridding the game of the vermin rather than serving the vermin community. I have severe doubts that this will happen because I believe there is probably more potential profit in running a game whose core is actually about "competing RMT forces battling each other in Zero over saleable digital assets" than battles over flags and bragging rights.
Some of you will argue here that none of this matters if you just ignore it and carry on in the sandbox, but then you have resigned yourself to just shovelling sand and you aren't really playing EVE.
(Account cancelled last year, running on isk>PLEX, and looking for another game. I wish it weren't so.) |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
56
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 04:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
Major development has been stopped since 2008, the company is wildly out of touch with reality and it was a niche game to begin with a bad reputation.
|
Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 04:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
In my very personal opinion it's because the most basic, core gameplay in its mechanic is utter ****.
As a newb you expect to join this supposedly superawesome spaceship game and shoot stuff or build your trade empire or whatnot. What you are greeted with is clicking on a button and staring at (health) bars for hours.
Earning money in missions sucks because missions and the basic spaceship combat are quite boring, as well as their visual presentation(waiting since 2008 on new effects btw). Traveling is horrid as all you basically do is again clicking on a button and staring at low res background and a blurry tunnel until you can press the same button again. I literally fall asleep after 5-6 jumps and need to tab out and read something outside of the game or watch a movie - basically doing anything possible NOT to look at my ingame screen. Which is seriously a horrible game design, imo. With even less background variety now it has became even a bit worse in that regard.
And that's what you always come back to. Want to pvp? Earn money for the ships first - boring. Got money and want to buy all you need? Try not to fall asleep as you fly around collecting modules. Got everything? Ok, now wait until you find a target or your (mini)blob gets to its destination, which might also include sitting behind a pos shield, on a gate or a safe spot - waiting. I used to tab out and watch videos when i was in an active alliance doing small gang fights and larger scale warfare just to endure all the waiting. Got in the fight - oops, lagged out, dead - get back to either making money for a new ship or collecting modules again. Fights where you actually get a chance to utilize several modules(but you need skills for those first and a ship with lots of slots and thus skills for the ship - and nice sums of isk, too - and thus some time to skill everything up) and would not get blown up or be bored shooting fishes in a barrel were actually somewhat fun but rare. In all other cases you could "play" an Excel sheet with about the same amount of fun. |
ShardowRhino
Chillwater Ltd Imperial Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 06:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
I ask myself the same question all the time about this game
What is it about playing calculator wars with space backgrounds that doesn't excite everyone?
What about the lack of control of one's ship do people not like?
Doesn't seeing big blobs of colorful icons swarming on the screen with white x's flying everywhere give everyone a raging hardon?
Who doesn't consider sitting in station spinning shiny ships around in circles for no good reason to be most amusing?
I don't get it..
...I have no idea what it is....
.....it just doesn't make any sense to me...
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1192
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 07:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
I think two things are at work here:
1. The global economy is shot. People are more limited in their game sub budgets. For younger people, this means their parents are not going to sub the kids up as often just to try a game for a short while. 2. EvE has a lot of "problems" for players that is more easily solved by getting more subscriptions. "Get an Alt" people say whenever somebody complains about something.
For example, if I had more than one sub, that would be around 30 bucks a month. For 30 bucks I can get materials for 5 gallons of good, dark homebrew beer. That's around 40 bottles of bear. I drink 60 bottles a month (2 per day, and have been doing so for over 20 years).
So two EvE subs means 40 bottles of beer. That's what I already do with the money. Just an example. For somebody else, that extra money is their phone bill, or something else.
The days of the 10 accounts player is coming to an end, thank God. I am tired of those people. EVERY solution from them is "get an alt....". What like I barely have enough time for one account consisting of me, one alt on the same account because I wanted to play with the Carbon Engine, now I gotta get more?
And if multiple accounts is the ONLY way to make it in this game, to someone who wants to win or feel like they did, that looks like a scam. Of course I don't give a rat's little gray ass about winning, but I refer to those more ambitious types. who do. If they went to play chess but had to buy more chess sets in order to have enough pieces, they would not play chess.
EvE also suffers from a great departure between mindless grind and PVP. It seems like it's either or, or a need to switch from one to facilitate the other. This is a matter of lacking opportunities. The more exciting game playing options do not sustain themselves economically (in game), while the truly boring ones bring in great funds, but are maor buzzkills.
I think that a combination of PVE and PVP, hybrid missions where players have to fight for the goal, or the kinds of missions where the target is another player, would bring in some fresh air and fresh blood. Something is going to have to be done, or the game goes away for the usual reasons that all games go away - they do get old. It's life. |
Gantz Tleilax
Tleilax Foundation
26
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 07:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Eve's downfall really started after Burning Crusade. Many people hated the bright clothing options, especially the Night Elves. That's why don't see many Elves in Eve. Jita used to be full of them. |
Xanatia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 08:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
While this isn't a criticism, EVE does lack the 'instant gratification' you would associate with most of the mainstream MMO's.
When i play WAR i can be in a PvP group inside of 2-3 minutes of logging on, and beating up on people within 5. i can play for 15-20 minutes and have a fairly good time, before logging off.
My missus recently started making me play SW:TOR and that too is similar.
The PvE content is also easier to access, and you can be 'raiding' almost before you logon.
For those with less disposable time, the appeal of most MMO's is that everything is put on a plate for you. and you can achieve something in a short time.
EVE in comparison is slow burning, and has nothing in the way of end game provided by the game itself. almost all the content is player created, and its not very suitable for the casual player. PvE is boring and repetetive, PvP is fast, and brutal, but finding a fight that isn't insanely one sided can be a challenge. When i was up fighting with the NC, it took around 30 minutes to form a fleet (at least) and then 1-2 hours to complete a roam, for 'maybe' a handful of fights (win or lose) many people simply do not have that kind of time.
If CCP really wanted to boost EVE subs, and make the game a mainstream success, they would definately need to dumb down the game in a major way, make PvP optional, add battlegrounds, instanced raids and so forth. but if they did that, EVE simply wouldn't be EVE, it would be WOW with spaceships |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 08:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
Just because most people suck at pvp and do nothing but ctas/gatecamping/blobbing if they pvp does not make it unenjoyable to the people who dont suck at it or at least try it, and to the people who say eve combat is just about turning mods on and off should try some real pvp and not just pressing F1, ever tried a 0m orbit in a frigate or cruise vs a bigger hull? Or ever flown in a kiting fleet fighting a blob?
There is tons of stuff to do for a new player, i know pilots who got their first kill in weeks and have gotten really good at pvping with out many sp at all. True, a one week old char will have a hard time achiving anything but a one or 2 month old player with the right ship in the right time can do a lot!
In total i think eve player base has grown ever since it came out little by little! And eve is one of the biggest mmorpgs around (which use a monthly payment model), it doesnt have the biggest numbers but it keeps its custumers, most mmorpgs get realesed, peak in there first few month and disappear back into the void. Eve doesnt and thus is one of the biggest ones around!
And to all the complaining idiots, stop spinning your ships or doing pve, come to lowsec or an avtive nullsec region, and try pvp, real small scale pvp! Or at least do some plexes in low/null in enemy space instead of lvl4s!
(im not saying that the above stated activities are lame (well to me they are) just that if you participate in them and find them boring, or your getting fed up with eve in general, try something else! Eve truly can be an awesome game if you give it the chance)
All in all, to ccp: you did an awesome job with this game! Keep up the good work!
|
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Vahu Shamy
Tr0pa de elite. G00DFELLAS
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 08:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
Eve needs more conflicts. Charismatic alliance leaders producing the awesome drama sauce on blogs and forums. Epic fights that generates, videos and press reviews. Nullsec alliances are the best advocates for the game. Now ccp really needs to help them by changing sov mechanics and creating wars incentives. Though imo small gang warfare is where the fun is, it got harder to find good fights, and you won't get much attention from outsiders advertising on 10vs10 fights (except Alliance Tournament but that's another story)
You won't attract players by creating new pve content. Other games are just better at it. Focus on what Eve is best at: epic pvp content. |
Alex Sinai
Constantly Causing Problems Everyone Enjoys
87
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 10:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:One thing I think might turn people off the game before starting it is a quick browsing of the forums and gauging the state of the community. The EVE community is incredibly self-centered, self-destructive, and overly hostile to new people or other's that don't play the game as they want them to play it. You can browse GD and see example after example of this. I'm not talking about hostility with certain facets of the game, I mean outright hostility and attacks against groups of players. When you constantly tell people to GTFO and play WOW they will, taking their revenue with them.
Then there are the attempts by one group of players to completely destroy the play style of other groups of players for whatever excuse. This leads to more people leaving the game. People stay out of low sec because the people that inhabit it simply want to kill whoever for their epeen boards and have engaged in a full onslaught to kill and change the play styles of others to force them into their kill zones (Incursion). People in 0.0 want to horde all the isk in the game and have engaged in campaigns to kill off play styles in high sec and wh (i.e. removing ABC).
Then there is the endless finger pointing at each other for the reason the game's prices have inflated. With each finger point comes a claim to destroy and remove that perceived "isk faucet". If someone is doing an activity and play/pay the game for that activity then an attack on that play style will not be perceived favorably; actual changes or removal as suggested by other players will result in more people leaving.
My point is the EVE community is self destructive in nature. Each group is out to kill and take from other groups. Sure you call this harsh and to HTFU but in reality it leaves the game capped with a certain type of person willing to play the game and not likely to draw new people.
This and more.
It seems some of more bored players start to grief in game these which posts they don't like or their corp mates they can grief easier. Since they are relatively careful with that petitioning would lead to nothing but a standard reply of no grief. That causes newbs to leave and older ones that ain't bored to that level to rethink their approach to game which also causes less logons.
The community itself makes the numbers fall. There's a certain limit of when challenging and hostile gameplay environment becomes something else and people leave. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 10:45:00 -
[73] - Quote
As many others have mentioned, I believe a large reason this game has stagnated has been both CCP and the players changing their vision on how this game should be running.
When I first started, it seemed CCP presented the tools for the players to build. Whereas CCP were players themselves, they seem to adjust (nerf) when something really got out of hand. They allowed the players to create, destroy, and expand in ways not initially considered and let the game run from there. Yet today, it appears CCP does not play their own game. They may or may not offer a dev blog on their intentions, may or may not respond to players' complaints and issues, and then proceed since they feel they know what is best for the game. Afterwards, the same complaints and issues are ignored as they proceed to the next "shiny". Add CCP expanded into bringing in market people that tout the grandest ideas because it works in other games so it shall work here too.
But the player base changed too. While many of the early players were paper and pencil gamers that progressed into hardcore player versus player gaming, today's players seem afraid of loosing. The early players were the number crunchers versus the newer players that want only the best right now. Early players did not seem to mind waiting and working towards smaller goals while newer players want the grand prize yesterday. Early players did not seem attached to token aspects like kill boards and proceeded what might appear rashly while newer players will not proceed unless they're guaranteed complete success to not appear as "lol fail noob tears".
I could be wrong, but the early players seemed older in real life, with the wisdom and maturity to match. Today's "instant gratification" crowd seem hellbent on tossing out the various "u mad bro", "tears", and other slang terms to appear cool to each other while most likely appearing as little angels to their clueless parents. And back then, Eve was just a game with no right nor wrong way to play and proceed. But today, if you do not follow a rigid path and divert onto less ~successful~ paths in the game, like mining, then you "utterly fail". Unless you happen to bot without care or disregard, then those "fail paths" mean big business in the real world.
As a bittervet, I have seen them come and go. If I did not "care" enough about my character I buil from scratch, then I would have probably vacated a while back. |
baltec1
553
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 10:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
Having taken a good few nubs under my wing I can safely say a new player in eve can be out in 0.0 and playing their part 2 hours after doing the tutorial. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1798
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 10:59:00 -
[75] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Having taken a good few nubs under my wing I can safely say a new player in eve can be out in 0.0 and playing their part 2 hours after doing the tutorial.
I fixed your link. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
230
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:In Q4-2010 QEN numbers where stated at
High-Sec - 79.61% Low-Sec - 6.68% NULL-Sec - 11.26% W-Space - 2.45%
Granted numbers might have changed since then, but i doubt by much. For one, they have indeed changed. Highsec is down to 66% according to numbers that CCP Diagoras have been spreading, and just like the QEN, it counts characters, not players. From there on, it's probably safe to pretty much double any low/nullsec numbers due to alts belonging to one and the same player.
Also is safe to factor how nullsec is riddled with bots and AFK cloakers, which means that there's quite less players actually playing nullsec.
And BTW, mission runners just hit 24% of all characters, which means that mission running is by far the largest profession in the game. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
baltec1
553
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Also is safe to factor how nullsec is riddled with bots and AFK cloakers, which means that there's quite less players actually playing nullsec.
And BTW, mission runners just hit 24% of all characters, which means that mission running is by far the largest profession in the game.
A good bulk of them being alts to people in 0.0 |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
139
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:16:00 -
[78] - Quote
The tutorials are really bad and the early game carrier choices aren't entertaining. Imagine starting the game wanting to be a hauler or miner and then realizing that you just click a button and watch your lasers slowly mine or you warp around identical looking systems delivering stuff for chump change.
Now, without WIS there's nothing new, just more ships and mods that the new player can't use.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4819
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:18:00 -
[79] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Also is safe to factor how nullsec is riddled with bots and AFK cloakers, which means that there's quite less players actually playing nullsec.
And BTW, mission runners just hit 24% of all characters, which means that mission running is by far the largest profession in the game. GǪwhich are safe to factor in a whole bunch of botters into, which means that there's quite less players actually running L4s.
See how that works?
Your signature is still hilariously inaccurate in just about every way. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
J Kunjeh
370
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
Inir Ishtori wrote:In my very personal opinion it's because the most basic, core gameplay in its mechanic is utter ****.
As a newb you expect to join this supposedly superawesome spaceship game and shoot stuff or build your trade empire or whatnot. What you are greeted with is clicking on a button and staring at (health) bars for hours.
Earning money in missions sucks because missions and the basic spaceship combat are quite boring, as well as their visual presentation(waiting since 2008 on new effects btw). Traveling is horrid as all you basically do is again clicking on a button and staring at low res background and a blurry tunnel until you can press the same button again. I literally fall asleep after 5-6 jumps and need to tab out and read something outside of the game or watch a movie - basically doing anything possible NOT to look at my ingame screen. Which is seriously a horrible game design, imo. With even less background variety now it has became even a bit worse in that regard.
And that's what you always come back to. Want to pvp? Earn money for the ships first - boring. Got money and want to buy all you need? Try not to fall asleep as you fly around collecting modules. Got everything? Ok, now wait until you find a target or your (mini)blob gets to its destination, which might also include sitting behind a pos shield, on a gate or a safe spot - waiting. I used to tab out and watch videos when i was in an active alliance doing small gang fights and larger scale warfare just to endure all the waiting. Got in the fight - oops, lagged out, dead - get back to either making money for a new ship or collecting modules again. Fights where you actually get a chance to utilize several modules(but you need skills for those first and a ship with lots of slots and thus skills for the ship - and nice sums of isk, too - and thus some time to skill everything up) and would not get blown up or be bored shooting fishes in a barrel were actually somewhat fun but rare. In all other cases you could "play" an Excel sheet with about the same amount of fun.
Wow, based on that post I can't imagine a single thing you like about the game. Why do you stick around at all? For the forums? "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 11:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
I am a new player. I played for 7 months in the latter part of '07. Quit and came back 2 weeks ago. Eve has changed a lot. I actually like the 'harder' bits, the ability to scan me down in missions etc.
I have the grand total of 9.5m sp. But this does not deter me. I make the most of what skills I have, set myself both short term and long term goals and just get on with it.
Veterans having x million skill points does not put me off me in any way.
If Eve was easy and the endgame quickly achievable I would quit.
It is the fact that Eve is difficult, harsh and unforgiving that keeps me playing. |
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
328
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
There aren't any elves or lightsabers here. Or, in other words, people seem to be used to following something that already has a previous background and/or something that copies that other something that had/has said background/catalogue.
What do I mean?
Take World of Warcraft. It had a massive fanbase beforehand, with 3 different games and addons. It grew to a stupid amount of players and now, even years and years later, every other game developer studio is copying them.
With EVE, what do you have? A really awesome science fiction MMO with absolute freedom. Lots of room for imagination, creativity, whatever. Your average player just isn't into that, yet.
But, I was also under the assumption that we've been growing, very slowly.
Fly Safe, Die Hard
|
Kopfy
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:06:00 -
[83] - Quote
Short answer to Topic question is: It is, but slowly.
And then we got thees two, not making it go faster: Learning Curve and Bailing Curve If you look at EVE-Offline you'll see that the number of average players online are yet again raising. (The newest value in the graphs on EVE-offline are the ones closest to the Y-axis)
People may already have given this info. But I love to link the EVE learning curve so here it is yet again Learning Curve |
Tiberius Sunstealer
Phantom Soulreavers Axiom Solaris
106
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
Bad graph. STO never even had 1 subscriber. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
230
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:20:00 -
[85] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Also is safe to factor how nullsec is riddled with bots and AFK cloakers, which means that there's quite less players actually playing nullsec.
And BTW, mission runners just hit 24% of all characters, which means that mission running is by far the largest profession in the game.
A good bulk of them being alts to people in 0.0
I know it's difficult to grasp, but, something that is performed by one in four characters is an improtant issue on itself. Also is important whatever do 67% of characters; even fi all them where nullsc alts, then hisec still would be important because it's where 67% of characters are, which woul beg questions as for why they are not in nullsec.
FAi, it is safe to assume that mission running is used a income source to finance PvP, which begs the question of why PvP can't sustain on itself and so and so.
It's about what people DOES, and what they do is to plague hisec with two of each three characters.
And some of them are owned by people who just quit once they are stranded without endgame nor any alternative to the not-so-appealing nullsec whose inhabitants can't stay there, but must plague hisec with alts for whatever reason... EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4819
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I know it's difficult to grasp, but, something that is performed by one in four characters is an improtant issue on itself. Good job not grasping the very easy point: the relative popularity of missions is not an indicator of tons of people being GÇ£PvE:ersGÇ¥ since it's GÇ£PvP:ersGÇ¥ (and bots) doing a lot of them. The statistic simply further belies the uninformed notion that highsec PvE is in any way a large part of the game that occupies a vast majority of the players. This pretty much gotshots any argument that says focusing on PvP development somehow harms or disregards some imagined PvE majority.
Quote:Also is important whatever do 67% of characters; even fi all them where nullsc alts, then hisec still would be important because it's where 67% of characters are, which woul beg questions as for why they are not in nullsec. Simple: because highsec is far too easy and profitable to stay out of. This is not a good thing, by the way. Quite the opposite: it means the balance between sec levels is out of whack. Highsec is not important GÇö very little of any actual value goes on there that couldn't happen anywhere else GÇö what it is is convenient. Functionally, it could be removed with no ill effects.
Quote:FAi, it is safe to assume that mission running is used a income source to finance PvP, which begs the question of why PvP can't sustain on itself and so and so. No, it does not beg the question GÇö it just raises it. The reason PvP combat can't sustain itself is because it's not supposed to. Combat is supposed to destroy things to generate demand and thus act as the driving force of the economy. The actual money is supposed to come from the things it currently comes from, but they have zero connection to highsec. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:
Wow, based on that post I can't imagine a single thing you like about the game. Why do you stick around at all? For the forums?
For the "Grand Design", if one can call it that: being free to do whatever you want to within a large "living" game universe. And because i don't have to pay RL monies for the subscription. Playing(as in actually playing and looking at my screen and pressing buttons instead of ship spinning) casually for 6-7 hours a week is enough to buy a Plex, so it's ok.
Also, it's funny that you mention the forums - because actually a couple of years ago CAOD provided an enormous entertainment value with stories about epic conflicts, dramas, betrayal, epic battles and so on. Stuff like that seemed to sweep in new players on a constant basis, also giving already established players something to rabble about even when they were not directly involved, increasing the immersion factor for everyone and making people curious enough to get involved or at least take a peek at what happened in person. CAOD now with its 9 pages(party thanks to CCP - great idea to hide it, really) is just sad. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
189
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Also is safe to factor how nullsec is riddled with bots and AFK cloakers, which means that there's quite less players actually playing nullsec.
And BTW, mission runners just hit 24% of all characters, which means that mission running is by far the largest profession in the game.
This might come as a shock to you but not everyone running a mission every now and then is a highsec carebear. Some are highsec alts to low/nul/wh dwellers and there are others that actually do run missions in null/lowsec (for fun, convenience and profit). In fact, I have found it to be an important chain in the logistics for surviving in NPC nullsec to run a few missions (mainly for faction ammo implants). Also, quite a few are running FW missions in lowsec in between fights.
|
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:48:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tiberius Sunstealer wrote:Bad graph. STO never even had 1 subscriber.
Totally untrue, the STO forums were very entertaining thanks to people buying into a lifetime subscription. Had to have been one of the most entertaining forums I've seen, just before and around it release.
Not entertaining for those involved of course, just frustrating for them.
Edit: Luckily for me the forums made me decide not to buy into STO. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
250
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:50:00 -
[90] - Quote
Unlike others, I exclude the current world economics is the cause of a sensible subs drop. Actually some players indeed left but many others just decided to work hard and pay with PLEX (one of the reasons of PLEX demand increasing and thus prices rising - along with Incursions and Fanfest tickets).
A more a apt explanation on the long term of EvE:
Blizzard perfectly understood the change of MMO player mindset in the beginning of the 2000s: from few geek addicts who loved rich experiences of the unknown (remember the MUDs giving more experience by exploring than killing stuff?), who loved to self build their own castles (MUDs again), roleplay, *be emergent*, deal with risk vs gain.
to
millions of apathetic, TV grown, demand instant gratification, no imagination nor creativity, sons of the "flashy and empty graphics age". They can't think, can't invent, can't imagine. They are holes to be filled by a canned storyline, canned campaign, canned and colorful characters, canned sensible rewards even for the stupidest tasks, "welfare epics", impossible to lose anything even when playing like an idiot. They are the sons of the most modern, weakened brain manipulation "culture".
Thus WoW was born.
EvE is for the "pre" WoW era mindset, a mindset that is slowly fading and being replaced by the "modern" one. The "pre" mindset was of people ready to invest effort to achieve their own thought targets. Sandbox capable people. People who are intelligent enough to foresee the dramatic crash in EvE quality. People who would not be easily fooled by shiny Barbies in Space and would have pointed at the increasing flaws and bad work done.
In a prophetic thread created in April 2011, famous poster Akita T called CCP on their worrysome trend at dropping quality: Alter bad new company direction, STOP rushing stuff out.
In the same thread, for the first time ever a player (me) forecast the future harsh drop in playerbase, even posting a graph about it.
The graph was made on the premise that the EvE as a product (its subscriptions) is subject to the market mechanics of demand and offer.
From that post:
"Vaerah Vahrokha" wrote: This trend will peak either at the current high or a next lower high (not drawn) then there will be a sharp drop down to the lower support. It will break because we will be in summer (low subs period of the year) and an even sharper drop will happen.
After a rebounce (typical bottom W formation), IF CCP changed their ways, they will slowly begin rising up (red line).
The last sentence, made 1 year ago, anticipated Crucible.
Compounding the above, EvE not only lost revenue and players. After too long mismanagement, bad quality and trying at pushing "modern MMO crap" (including attempts at pay2win etc), it lost something worse because irreplaceable. EvE lost the core of ancient, "old times mindset" alpha achievement players, those of the perceived "golden age".
Due to aggressive advertisment campaigns and initiatives EvE got a slew of newer players but they are of the newer mentality, they are not as strongly bound to the title and jump to another MMO because EvE is "just another MMO, gonna try new XYZ tomorrow".
I have witnessed multiple MMOs lose their original community (for many reasons) and they never fully recovered from that.
EvE won't return the game it has been in the past, all we can do is to hold it tight to our heart till possible. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
218
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:57:00 -
[91] - Quote
EVE is intentionally tilted toward destructive, and anti-social mentalities. Oddly enough, the majority of people in the world tend to be creative and social. As a result EVE has hamstrung itself by catering specifically to a certain ilk, and disregarding the greater (by a long shot) majority of gamers in the world. CCP seems happy with that, and judging by the vitriol of those EVE seems to be cozy to, the so-called "player base" seems to be happy with that, too.
What the vandals and self-described thugs (children on mommy's keyboard acting tough in the basement, since in real life their lunch money is always being stolen by real toughies) would have folks believe is, their "way" of "doing" things (which destruction can't really be "doing" since it's "undoing") is the way EVE is SUPPOSED to be played, while at the same time screaming that EVE is a SANDBOX and there's no particular way it's SUPPOSED to be done. (This of course is the sort of circular logic destructive people manage to gin-up being unable to get off their self-imposed DIME.)
A lot of the uproar over CSM representation at present is precisely about letting the MAJORITY influence the game for once, and pushing the MINORITY into the background where they belong. Should this happen, and EVE become more habitable than the toilet it's become...which the "player base" finds cozy...you'll find more interest on a wider scale. And, I daresay, more people willing to pay REAL MONEY for the game (like me, for instance) with a reduction in poofs paying with PLEX (while at the same time complaining how PLEX has ruined the game...more circular logic there.)
Is EVE worth the effort of banging your head against a CCP/CSM/sociopath wall? Not really. But, if this change could occur, and SANITY PREVAIL, it could become something special...more special than the foggy memories of the bitter vets could imagine.
Ta da. Flame that one.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1023
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
This is very simple. EvE is a game that does not cater to your average gamer. Most gamers today are parents, husbands, wives and have jobs they have to go to every day. These people cannot log in every single day...when they can they can only log in for a few hours at most. EvE caters to players that have unending time on their hands and can play for several hours a day every day without fail. CCP want's to keep the game dark and difficult but at the same time wants to grow more players. Well...they can do that...but it will be very slow going. I am lucky to have a wife who is a gamer so making time for EvE is relatively easy for me. Most of my other friends that are married don't have that luxury.
Any major change to the game to make it easier for the average gamer is received with hate and riots from the current player base. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4821
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:15:00 -
[93] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Most gamers today are parents, husbands, wives and have jobs they have to go to every day. These people cannot log in every single day...when they can they can only log in for a few hours at most. EvE caters to players that have unending time on their hands and can play for several hours a day every day without fail. GǪand yet its customer base skews more towards the older crowd GÇö the people who are more likely to have kids, husbands, wives and jobs GÇö and it has a number of mechanics that let you get ahead in the game by just logging in for a few hours every few days rather than having to grind for hours to get anywhere. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:41:00 -
[94] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:This is very simple. EvE is a game that does not cater to your average gamer. Most gamers today are parents, husbands, wives and have jobs they have to go to every day. These people cannot log in every single day...when they can they can only log in for a few hours at most. EvE caters to players that have unending time on their hands and can play for several hours a day every day without fail. CCP want's to keep the game dark and difficult but at the same time wants to grow more players. Well...they can do that...but it will be very slow going. I am lucky to have a wife who is a gamer so making time for EvE is relatively easy for me. Most of my other friends that are married don't have that luxury.
Any major change to the game to make it easier for the average gamer is received with hate and riots from the current player base.
That's certainly part of it, Eve is one of the old character building (empire building) style games which generally requires a lot of time to do well in. If you have money and can by PLEX then it can be seen as being a bit more casual. Of course you can play casually in this game but generally you will not do as well as someone that has a lot of time on their hands, but that can be said of even casual style MMOs. Training offline has helped Eve a lot in this respect.
WoW style games generally suit a casual player better (except for some of the long instances), plus they tend to be more family orientated.
Eve is a niche game and if you try to force it to become inline with other MMOs (WoW style) then you will get rage from the player base because most that play it don't want to play WoW style games. Or if they do they would prefer to have both style games available.
People also like new games because they can be amoung the first to be in it's virtual world, even in WoW some people were always on the lookout for new servers. This game is old now some people will not play it just because it is old and they don't want to start 8+ years behind some other people.
Because of the age of this game it's better to keep it a niche game imo. But that does not stop the game developing and maybe attracting more people as long as it does not become too WoWish. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:54:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Most gamers today are parents, husbands, wives and have jobs they have to go to every day. These people cannot log in every single day...when they can they can only log in for a few hours at most. EvE caters to players that have unending time on their hands and can play for several hours a day every day without fail. GǪand yet its customer base skews more towards the older crowd GÇö the people who are more likely to have kids, husbands, wives and jobs GÇö and it has a number of mechanics that let you get ahead in the game by just logging in for a few hours every few days rather than having to grind for hours to get anywhere.
It does have those mechanics, but it's still quick to get to a max level character in WoW for example than it to even fly a battlecruiser well here.
Main difference is with a casual game like WoW the content is there to be done when you want to, instances and player behaviour might make this harder in some cases.
But those are pick up and put down games, where as Eve is a character building game which requires some patience and time if you're actually going to play Eve rather than log on to just change the training. |
5p4c3 M4n
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 17:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
The part of eve that people seem to skip is it's potential.
Make high sec true safe space for the carebears and new players. Completely safe with no chance of pvp. This would satisfy all of the new players as well as the players who are true carebears. Because believe it or not.. there are people who want to just mine or just do missions. Make the rewards really low so people are directed towards lower sec areas.
Make low sec like current high sec and include low sec in this area. it's that simple, or maybe you split high sec so it has true safe and current high sec then leave low sec alone.
Change 0.0 so more people have the opportunity to enjoy it. Make sov so alliances can hold space based on their size of active members limited to a maximum of constellations connected to a "HQ" constellation. They must be connected via jump gates. Eliminate moon goo or make every constellation have at least 1 type of each moon min. Make all 0.0 belts have at least 1 ABC ore. Obviously quantities would have to be adjusted so not to screw the market.
This would make eve what it needs to be. Everyone wants to give eve a chance but some people want carebear and some people want chaos. so make part of it completely safe and make the rest where everyone has a chance not just huge alliances.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4828
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 18:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
5p4c3 M4n wrote:Make high sec true safe space for the carebears and new players. Completely safe with no chance of pvp. Ok.
Such an area would have (at least, and probably more than) the following restrictions:
-+ You can obviously no longer lock any player ship. -+ You can no longer activate any kind of AoE weaponry or module. -+ You can no longer use the market, contracts or the trading window. -+ You can no longer access or manage POSes and their services. -+ You can no longer mine. -+ You can no longer shoot rats. -+ You can no longer open any kind of container in space. -+ You can no longer use the on-board scanner or scan probes. -+ You can no longer be in a fleet. -+ You can no longer use salvagers. -+ You can no longer access the industry interface. -+ You can no longer access free-floating permanent sites in space (or rather, there would be none in that part of space).
Or, if you don't like those restrictions, you can just go to the non-pvp server (Sisi). The question you have to ask yourself is this: if you remove the PvP, what remains? What would be the point of playing the game? What fun would there be to be had?
Quote:This would make eve what it needs to be. GǪand what is that, exactly? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 18:46:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:5p4c3 M4n wrote:Make high sec true safe space for the carebears and new players. Completely safe with no chance of pvp. Ok. Such an area would have (at least, and probably more than) the following restrictions: -+ You can obviously no longer lock any player ship. -+ You can no longer activate any kind of AoE weaponry or module. -+ You can no longer use the market, contracts or the trading window. -+ You can no longer access or manage POSes and their services. -+ You can no longer mine. -+ You can no longer shoot rats. -+ You can no longer open any kind of container in space. -+ You can no longer use the on-board scanner or scan probes. -+ You can no longer be in a fleet. -+ You can no longer use salvagers. -+ You can no longer access the industry interface. -+ You can no longer access free-floating permanent sites in space (or rather, there would be none in that part of space). Or, if you don't like those restrictions, you can just go to the non-pvp server (Sisi). The question you have to ask yourself is this: if you remove the PvP, what remains? What would be the point of playing the game? What fun would there be to be had? Quote:This would make eve what it needs to be. GǪ and what is that, exactly?
I'm going to go with a steaming pile of dog poo. |
5p4c3 M4n
Perkone Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:10:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
Or, if you don't like those restrictions, you can just go to the non-pvp server (Sisi). The question you have to ask yourself is this: if you remove the PvP, what remains? What would be the point of playing the game? What fun would there be to be had?
Ok.. you missed the point entirely.
"THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE CAREBEAR STUFF IN EVE!! THEY NEVER WANT TO PVP!!"
This is simple. although these areas should be connected they should still exist. There should be a place with 0 pvp.
Like I said. Maybe the ore has much less yield. Maybe the ice belts actually get mined out and you have to wait for them to respawn or move to regular space. But some people would love this about eve.
Tippia wrote:5p4c3 M4n wrote:This would make eve what it needs to be. GǪand what is that, exactly?
An interwebz spaceshipz game that "everyone" can enjoy. If ccp keeps catering to the whiny losers that "just want to blow stuff up" then eve will die in a fire sooner rather than later. |
Tithi
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
It's fairly obvious that High Sec is the place to be if you want to make ISK without getting killed. That's why it is so populated. I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly.
Why make it any safer than it already is? If it was really dangerous and the piracy was out of control, why is it chock ******* full of people? |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4838
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:22:00 -
[101] - Quote
5p4c3 M4n wrote:Ok.. you missed the point entirely.
"THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE CAREBEAR STUFF IN EVE!! THEY NEVER WANT TO PVP!!" No, i think you missed the point completely. The things I listed that would have to be barred from a non-PvP area are all PvP activities that affect the rest of the game world and everyone in it. If people don't want to PvP, then they will have to stay away from those things. If they want to do those things, and thus affect everyone around them, then those around them should be allowed to affect those people right back GÇö PvP.
Quote:There should be a place with 0 pvp. There is. It's called GÇ£SingularityGÇ¥. Nothing you do there affects anyone else. There is a reason (besides the constant wipes, the odd patching and availability and the occasionally unstable nature of the code running there) why people don't do this: because without that PvP element, everything you do is meaningless.
Quote:Like I said. Maybe the ore has much less yield. Maybe the ice belts actually get mined out and you have to wait for them to respawn or move to regular space. But some people would love this about eve. Unfortunately, no matter how much they love it, letting them affect the rest of the game world GÇ£in peaceGÇ¥ would be inherently bad for everyone and thus cannot be allowed.
Quote:An interwebz spaceshipz game that "everyone" can enjoy. Why does GÇ£everyoneGÇ¥ need to be able to enjoy it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ai Shun
247
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I know it's difficult to grasp, but, something that is performed by one in four characters is an improtant issue on itself. Also is important whatever do 67% of characters; even fi all them where nullsc alts, then hisec still would be important because it's where 67% of characters are, which woul beg questions as for why they are not in nullsec.
It is not that difficult. Trade alts for market scanning; one in each trade hub. There are 3 or 4 characters potentially. 0.0 needs a place to market some of their exclusive goods too. Then, add in the numbers for suicide ganking alts. They may swing each way. Then you have the haulers that ship the goods produced to convenient locations for a JF to pickup, etc.
I really think this is why using CONCORD security rating to determine demographics in any shape or form is dumb. Any decisions needs to be made not on where players are, but on what they do in space.
|
Ai Shun
247
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:51:00 -
[103] - Quote
5p4c3 M4n wrote:There should be a place with 0 pvp.
Okay, say goodbye to missions, Incursions, mining, trade and everything else in EVE. Congratulations, you can now spend your entire subscription time spinning a ship.
Oh. Wait.
The current game mechanics allow you to do exactly that. It even gives you a counter so you can track your achievements.
|
Lili Lu
172
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:55:00 -
[104] - Quote
5p4c3 M4n wrote: "THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE CAREBEAR STUFF IN EVE!! THEY NEVER WANT TO PVP!!"
This is simple. although these areas should be connected they should still exist. There should be a place with 0 pvp.
Like I said. Maybe the ore has much less yield. Maybe the ice belts actually get mined out and you have to wait for them to respawn or move to regular space. But some people would love this about eve. Eve has never had non-potentially-pvp areas. The game is well known to have pvp and the potential loss of virtual assets from the pvp (or even from the pve for that matter) everywhere in the game, even high sec. Anyone coming to this game with an expectation such as you used all caps for is plainly stupid. Besides, it is possible to avoid pvp in empire, but not entirely. To want to escape the possibility of losing virtual assets, then go play some other game.
FFS the carebear activities are essentially making weapons. Even if all you did was mine and build industrials you would be furthering the market chain for weapons. To expect that those weapons won't ever get turned on you at some point is delusional. The potential for loss provides the excitement. I think even the poeple you think you are championing, if they trully examined the motivation for being here, would conceed that it is what brought them and what keeps them here despite all the complaining.
5p4c3 M4n wrote:Tippia wrote:5p4c3 M4n wrote:This would make eve what it needs to be. GǪand what is that, exactly? An interwebz spaceshipz game that "everyone" can enjoy. If ccp keeps catering to the whiny losers that "just want to blow stuff up" then eve will die in a fire sooner rather than later. What do you want, a special olympics where everyone is a winner and noone loses a race? Again, anyone in this game has to expect that they will lose a ship and not get it back. They will eventually lose a pod and not get their implants back. That is what is advertized. And that is what has made it a game worth playing for those that have been here.
As to the OP. Growth? Who says it has to grow. It is a mature game. It has already gone through it's childhood years. If it slowly increases in numbers, fine. If it stays at a steady state, fine also. Either way it survives. Here's hoping it has a long adulthood. Eventually it will die, everything does. Enjoy what it has been, is, and hopefully will continue to be.
Noone should worry unless it starts sloughing off huge numbers of players. That nearly happened with the incarna crap where the game was not being true to itself. Spaceman would have it not be true to itself, which would lose it its existing playerbase. If such a change were to occur CCP would have to be damn sure they could capture enough instant gratification whores that would somehow not get bored and proceed to the next shiney game. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
300
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 21:55:00 -
[105] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
monoclegate saw alot of bitter vets quit eve
then the northern coalition got spanked by drf and many more bitter vets quit eve
then supernerf came out and more bitter vets left
then plex prices became too expensive (500mil+) so more accounts were let go unsubbed
most of the bitter vets that left haven't returned
the ratio of new players joining vs bitter vets leaving has been fairly even since crucible came out
so population growth has now stagnated... but at least its no longer on the decline. Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
RedLion
State Constructions
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 22:20:00 -
[106] - Quote
I can confirm Eve is dead. Send me your isk. |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate EVE Animal Control
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 22:28:00 -
[107] - Quote
Fer DeLance wrote:The game hasn't really moved foward in the last 2-3 years. Yes, new ships and modules have been introduced, but after all, they do mostly what was done before, just in a different, or a better, or an easier, or a cheaper way. What difference would it make for a 2-3 years old player to save isk and buy a Talos, and not just pay a few iskies more and buy a more durable Mega or Hyperion? Sure it would be good for a change, sure it will be fun for a couple of months, but it's again the same old thing.
So old players get bored and new players get socked by the complexity of the game. For EVE to grow, CCP needs to both make it a lot easier for new players to beggin, and a lot more interesting for old players to stay.
Why not make it that there are ships, modules, or even areas of EVE that need the character to be of certain age to access? Or that is takes combined skills, time, missions completed, security status reached etc ect, to unlock certain abilities, or skils and modules? I may not be describing this correctly, what i want to say, is give old players some long-term goals to achive, either PVE goals or even PVP goals.
And fix the stupid Neutal RR thing. As long as it exists i have sworn to never talk about EVE to anyone new. I mean it...
Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this was already taken care of. The bolded part, you realize it's already that way?
Want a caldari navy raven? You need to get enough LP by running a certain number of missions with a certain corporation to get that raven. "No cuz I bot it on markeet!". You bought it on the market from somebody who did all the aforementioned things to get the raven. Same with faction modules.
Certain secruity status reached? Ever try to drop a POS in high sec? For that matter, ever try to go into high sec when your sec status isn't at the right number?
I'm not hatin on you but if you had something else in mind that isn't already the way it is, some elaboration is needed. |
Fer DeLance
PERONOSPOROS
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 02:19:00 -
[108] - Quote
Rath Kelbore wrote:Fer DeLance wrote:The game hasn't really moved foward in the last 2-3 years. Yes, new ships and modules have been introduced, but after all, they do mostly what was done before, just in a different, or a better, or an easier, or a cheaper way. What difference would it make for a 2-3 years old player to save isk and buy a Talos, and not just pay a few iskies more and buy a more durable Mega or Hyperion? Sure it would be good for a change, sure it will be fun for a couple of months, but it's again the same old thing.
So old players get bored and new players get socked by the complexity of the game. For EVE to grow, CCP needs to both make it a lot easier for new players to beggin, and a lot more interesting for old players to stay.
Why not make it that there are ships, modules, or even areas of EVE that need the character to be of certain age to access? Or that is takes combined skills, time, missions completed, security status reached etc ect, to unlock certain abilities, or skils and modules? I may not be describing this correctly, what i want to say, is give old players some long-term goals to achive, either PVE goals or even PVP goals.
And fix the stupid Neutal RR thing. As long as it exists i have sworn to never talk about EVE to anyone new. I mean it...
Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this was already taken care of. The bolded part, you realize it's already that way? Want a caldari navy raven? You need to get enough LP by running a certain number of missions with a certain corporation to get that raven. "No cuz I bot it on markeet!". You bought it on the market from somebody who did all the aforementioned things to get the raven. Same with faction modules. Certain secruity status reached? Ever try to drop a POS in high sec? For that matter, ever try to go into high sec when your sec status isn't at the right number? I'm not hatin on you but if you had something else in mind that isn't already the way it is, some elaboration is needed.
My sec status is at the right number (5.0, doesn't get better), i have two, or so, millions LP points that i don't really know where and what to spend them for, i can drop poses in many many systems, "earning" a Caldari Navy Raven isn't much of a goal for me, maybe a weeks work etc etc... And there are many old characters like me. We need something beyond 5.0 security status, we need something beyond 2.000.000 LP points... The game needs to move forward. New things must happen, like unexplored areas, like new races, like Jovian space, like 9th slot, like 11th implant... That's what i mean by moving forward, not making another intermediate class of ships that goes between BS and BC, and does this and that better. Things like the ones i described may keep a portion of old players occupied for some time...
I have read all the posts... there is too much theoretical analisys of what is going on and what is going wrong, but only very few and general suggestions (Mostly the usual things about sandbox, how to force everybody in low-sec and null sec, and how a two days old character can perform miracles in PvP). We need practical suggestions and solutions. |
Montragar
SYNDAX CORPORATION Yulai Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 22:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
Is it because of the learning curve or the pvp ? |
baltec1
780
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 23:25:00 -
[110] - Quote
ISD Grossvogel sent me here, he said hello. |
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Ai Shun
347
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 23:30:00 -
[111] - Quote
Montragar wrote:Is it because of the learning curve or the pvp ?
Came here from your failed thread.
Why do some people like spinach and others don't? Why do some people own Ferraris and others do not?
Different games will have appeal for different segments of the market. EVE Online is not a theme-park MMO like Star Wars: The Old Republic or World of Warcraft. It targets a completely different mindset of player.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept of EVE Online; it is just a different game and does not appeal to the mass market. It requires a specific type of player and those players are, according to CCP's own data, fairly loyal once they comprehend what the game really involves.
|
Kehro Urgus
162
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 23:48:00 -
[112] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
Seems like CCP doesn't do much marketing for EVE. SWTOR has the Star Wars franchise behind it and WoW is advertised farily extensively. Unless one keeps a keen eye on the MMO gaming industry they will likely not have even heard of it. The only reason I ever heard about EVE was a random comment on an other MMO forum several years before I signed on and nothing since. On a whim I decided to check it out one night and to my surprise it was still around. I hear voices and they don't like you very much! |
Ai Shun
347
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
Fer DeLance wrote:My sec status is at the right number (5.0, doesn't get better), i have two, or so, millions LP points that i don't really know where and what to spend them for, i can drop poses in many many systems, "earning" a Caldari Navy Raven isn't much of a goal for me, maybe a weeks work etc etc... And there are many old characters like me. We need something beyond 5.0 security status, we need something beyond 2.000.000 LP points... The game needs to move forward. New things must happen, like unexplored areas, like new races, like Jovian space, like 9th slot, like 11th implant... That's what i mean by moving forward, not making another intermediate class of ships that goes between BS and BC, and does this and that better. Things like the ones i described may keep a portion of old players occupied for some time...
I have read all the posts... there is too much theoretical analisys of what is going on and what is going wrong, but only very few and general suggestions (Mostly the usual things about sandbox, how to force everybody in low-sec and null sec, and how a two days old character can perform miracles in PvP). We need practical suggestions and solutions.
Will your "solution" not lead to the type of moving goalpost that infects theme park games?
I'm struggling to articulate this, but when I think of World of Warcraft or the like I see Gear Score, grinds and the drive to "earn" that next +10 or +20 on an item just so you can attack the next bit of content. There seems to be a need then for constant content that is consumed at much different rates; it just seems like a fundamentally flawed model. How many times can you increase the level cap before older content becomes obsolete and painful and the barrier to entry for new players is too great?
It seems to me that EVE got that balance right through the combination of training and the lack of the features that draws players to games like the above. It really puts the goals in the hands of each player where they need to decide those goals for themselves within the sandbox.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
300
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:20:00 -
[114] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Yeah i agree. EvE is hard and most often too complicated for the very young to understand fully. It takes a special sort of dedication to play this game since most/all goals are set by yourself and there is no end other than what you decide the end to be.
Translation: to get any real satisfaction out of Eve, you must be unemployed and living in your grandma's basement because it required 10 hours/day and a job and social life are difficult to fit in for the truly dedicated Eve player.
There is a difference between eve being complicated and eve taking allot of time. Lots of the time people have to spend in eve - scouting for fights or waiting for fleets to form - is pretty mundane. I anticipate ccp will speed up our ability to get pvp quickly when they revamp faction war.
Eve was actually losing players due to the incarna move. Its hard to turn that around and start picking up numbers again. But I think they will do that.
Plus incarna introduced some bugs that still have not been worked out. This includes the client freezing up at certain inopportune times - like when you are trying to warp your pod out.
And yes null sec has been very tame since bob disolved. So there hasn't been any news where lots of capitals are destroyed and that tends to peak new players interest. I don't do null sec, so I don't know why null sec has been so boring for so long - risk averse leaders or ccp mechanics - or both. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:22:00 -
[115] - Quote
I thought eve subs finally broke 400K recently. That's not growing quickly but not dead either. Maybe the launch in the Japan and Dust will bring in some more people.
|
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
108
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:49:00 -
[116] - Quote
Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.
Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now. I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
|
Ai Shun
347
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:52:00 -
[117] - Quote
Valentyn3 wrote:Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.
Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.
I agree with that. However, I think projects like Dust 514 will extend the EVE Universe (And thus the CCP subscriber / player base) without having to modify the core principles of EVE Online too much. That way they get the best of both worlds.
Now, if they could add WiS as an add-on to EVE Universe like Dust, with its own gameplay and objectives and implement a RTS layer between Dust and EVE FiS I'd be a very, very happy camper. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1033
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:54:00 -
[118] - Quote
Eve is growing, certainly if you consider the average population since Incarna was released. Here's my proof: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/crucible-mission-accomplished/ - and if ~words~ isn't good enough, here's a pretty picture: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1033
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 00:57:00 -
[119] - Quote
Valentyn3 wrote:Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.
Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.
I don't know if I agree with this. You would consider Rift a 'main stream' game, yet Eve Online actually has more subs and a significantly higher PCU. Consider: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4I
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
109
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 01:08:00 -
[120] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Valentyn3 wrote:Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.
Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now. I don't know if I agree with this. You would consider Rift a 'main stream' game, yet Eve Online actually has more subs and a significantly higher PCU. Consider: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4I-Liang
I just mean the idea of a player driven sandbox is "OMG win" to a lot of people until they find out that there is only one server, it's a pvp server, and everything you own is destructible. Once you get through all that it leaves only a small portion that either see this as a plus or aren't bothered by it enough to stop.
I'll admit I don't know much about Rift but it's been my experience that any mmo that doesn't establish a solid player base either was just plain bad or tried to emulate another successful game which is almost always a farce.
A lot of mmo'ers have been lulled into the "Giant shoulder pads ftw" style of game play and when they hear that not only do giant shoulder pads not mean an automatic win in eve but that they can be atomized, people get turned off easily. Or at least that has been my experience with the people I know who play games religiously. I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
|
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
400
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 01:17:00 -
[121] - Quote
Well... if what you are asking is why on an annual basis we've stagnated I would say the answer is "incarna".
If you are asking why we don't see explosive growth I would say because it takes a few months to figure out even the basics of wtf is going on in this game.
If, however, you are asking why we don't see say 3-400% annual growth (while achievable) I would say the answer is a two parter:
- EvE Gameplay has stagnated. In the early days of EvE, the devs were fearless. They introduced huge new mechanics that radically changed the landscape of the game. The addition of deadspace and conquerable stations in Exodus, Fully owned outposts a bit later, the introduction of T2, T3, Wormholes, warp-to-zero (it was a very big deal at the time) even faction warfare and caps. Some of these expansions were so dramatic in terms of gameplay they forced you to re-learn what you thought you knew about the game. Since wormholes were introduced not much has changed.
- BitterVets are the other problem imho. They complain about everything new or anything that might encourage them to adapt. If something doesn't fit precisely with how they want the game to play them they write a wailing wall of posts, and CCP, bless their hearts, does their best to accommodate them. While the protests last summer were justified imho, I fear it might prevent CCP from taking chances in the future. This coupled with the false perception that one must "catch up" in terms of SP in order to compete is a real turn-off to other MMO players and would-be capsuleers when they contemplate investing any ammount of time in a new universe.
Anyway... that's how I see it. Obviously, it wouldn't take much in relative terms to overcome some of these obstacles. ...and I'm just some random guy on the internet. I'm sure CCP has hired focus groups to look at this and they have probably included some similar points: and CCP more than anyone would likely want to see the playerbase grow, so they know what's up.
We will just have to see what they do. After Crucible, the ball is in CCPs court.
|
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1203
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 01:20:00 -
[122] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I grow older each day...
However, it does grow, at least in characters
CCP Diagoras: "Jan 2012: 97,892 characters created....And 16,744 characters deleted in Jan 2012."
So what? I never delete my trial-acc scouting alts - I just let them expire...
I assume most people do the same. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Docter Daniel Jackson
Hendrix Angels Fabricated Confabulations
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 02:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
I would rather see a game like eve grow slowly and push CCP because they want to grow just that bit more, then have a game like WOW were it was at 12 million subs and Blizzard could not care about there game because they have too much money to give a ****...
Eve been the size it is, is great because the people become a big family and a lot of people know each other while if you play wow, your see some one once and never see them again in your life on wow.
Eve will grow and keep growing over time, but not like other mmo's, Eve as a game needs to grow before the sub numbers can grow as well. Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full. |
Ai Shun
348
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 03:17:00 -
[124] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:I would rather see a game like eve grow slowly and push CCP because they want to grow just that bit more, then have a game like WOW were it was at 12 million subs and Blizzard could not care about there game because they have too much money to give a ****...
Eve been the size it is, is great because the people become a big family and a lot of people know each other while if you play wow, your see some one once and never see them again in your life on wow.
Eve will grow and keep growing over time, but not like other mmo's, Eve as a game needs to grow before the sub numbers can grow as well. Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full.
+1 |
Ettu Brute II
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 03:33:00 -
[125] - Quote
Sicex wrote:Eve is cruel, people don't like that, people cry for something easier, we tell them to go play something easier.
Alternative version:
Eve is cruel; people kill players who can't fight back; people cry because killing defenceless players isn't easier; newbies go to find something more enjoyable. |
Ettu Brute II
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 03:36:00 -
[126] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full. Eve is not a sandbox, which is hardly surprising as there is no such thing. |
Docter Daniel Jackson
Hendrix Angels Fabricated Confabulations
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 03:47:00 -
[127] - Quote
Ettu Brute II wrote:Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full. Eve is not a sandbox, which is hardly surprising as there is no such thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo
1:48 into the video is the meaning of a sandbox, but Google works too you know. :) |
Kale deCoste
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:22:00 -
[128] - Quote
So I was looking here...
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
And it shows that Eve has shed 66% of its playerbase since it peaked?
That's pretty bad. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:26:00 -
[129] - Quote
Biggest mistake ccp made was removing sanctums from 0.0 systems. Sanctums payed for pvp ships but now almost everyone disabled their alts.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1036
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:41:00 -
[130] - Quote
This is you not knowing how to read.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Docter Daniel Jackson
Hendrix Angels Fabricated Confabulations
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:43:00 -
[131] - Quote
People been online, and people subbed are two different things mate... |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1038
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:54:00 -
[132] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:People been online, and people subbed are two different things mate...
Its worse than that - the graph shows more recent players to the left. We literally have 66% more players online, not less. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1225
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:55:00 -
[133] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:People been online, and people subbed are two different things mate...
Very true, which seems to confuse many in this thread, however his problem is he doesn't realize which side the newest information is on. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Amber Green Thorn
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 06:11:00 -
[134] - Quote
If CCP gradually dumbed this game down then gradually their super-computer in London would choke up and die, simply because tons more people would stick around and play it. Can CCp afford to invest right now??
The mathematics .. (or math - dumb yankz):
CCP invests more into the hardware + Dumb this uber complex game down ( multiplied by spaceships) = Increased playerbase.
Equals more cold hard cash for them
Good on them!
|
Ai Shun
349
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 06:46:00 -
[135] - Quote
First question - do you know the most recent date is to the left of that graph? It is an obvious one, but it seems a few people do not realise that.
Second question, which points / periods are you selecting as your peak and as your current? And what time-frame are you placing on each one? Because when I look at the pure peak numbers it says:
Current Record: 63,170 Peak today: 50,322
Now there is no Alliance Tournament today. And the game is in a recovery mode. But I can't see how ~13,000 pilots is 66%.
So, can you please explain how you got to that strange looking number? |
Gantz Tleilax
Tleilax Foundation
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 07:20:00 -
[136] - Quote
Whenever I'm down on Eve I try other MMOs. They are just so shallow and superficial, that I always come back to Eve. It's one game thats kept my interest the longest.
A recent example is I took two characters to 50 on SWTOR in 2 months. It started off fun, but I have no desire to log back on, it feels so pointless. It's not just SWTOR, I play every damn MMO (WOT, Fallen Earth, Conan, Tera, Aion, Black Prophecy, DCUO, Lotro, Rift, etc etc.) that comes out, hoping to one day move past Eve.
Eve, I can't ******* quit you! |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 11:31:00 -
[137] - Quote
My opinion (opinions are all you're gonna get on this topic) is that its down to the long-standing difference of opinion between pvp players, and those not interested in pvp. You don't have to go far in these forums to find threads with these two sides.
There are those that play eve for the PVP. They love to see ships exploding, and more importantly, you crying about said ship exploding. They generally have been playing for a while, know what they are doing, and live in null or low-sec space. They're of the opinion that eve is a "pvp-only" game, and will enforce that opinion by blowing up your ship.
Then there are the players of high-sec, who play eve because they get enjoyment out of the game by doing all the boring stuff. Hauling stuff, buying high and selling low. Industrialists with their pretty spreadsheets, managing production lines and making stuff. Pve players, doing boring missions over and over and over. And miners, watching their pretty lasers hit rocks and getting free resources [Gasp!, insert standard "They're not free!" rant here]. These players have NO interest in PVP
I've been playing since 2005, and always have been of the opinion that these two groups should be able to co-exist in eve. Afterall, who cares what you get from eve, as long as you are playing, and therefore, paying. Empires there to allow people to be safe while they get to grips with eve's MASSIVE learning curve, and slowly facilitate their movement into low and nullsec space.
I think now tho that this mechanic is broken. High-sec players don't have any incentive to natually move-on in the game, as those players that have already made the transition make it difficult for those that haven't. Suicide ganking is pretty standard now, and what incentive is there for newer players to make the leap into more dangerous space if they're already getting pwned in supposed safe space?
I've always been of the opinion that empire should be safe for those players that want to do the boring stuff, and have no interest in pvp. If thats what they get from eve, then good for them. Its certainly not what i enjoy, but each to their own. Its those players that enjoy pvp, and with their "pvp-only" game opinion, that feel justified in forcing pvp on those that don't want or enjoy it. And people that can't get what they enjoy from eve just unsub. Thats what's ultimately harming the continued growth of eve.
But voicing such opinions on these forums are likely to get the pvp-side of the formula bashing you.
Personally, i don't see why they are so passionate about attacking those that can't and don't want to fight back. Don't they get enough pvp from null-sec space? Or is it that the players there shoot back? |
baltec1
781
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 11:40:00 -
[138] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Personally, i don't see why they are so passionate about attacking those that can't and don't want to fight back. Don't they get enough pvp from null-sec space? Or is it that the players there shoot back?
It pays well to shoot them. |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 11:52:00 -
[139] - Quote
This can't be true. There is no real PVP alternative to EVE. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 11:54:00 -
[140] - Quote
Ettu Brute II wrote:Sicex wrote:Eve is cruel, people don't like that, people cry for something easier, we tell them to go play something easier.
Alternative version: Eve is cruel; people kill players who can't be bothered to learn how fight back; people cry because killing defenceless players isn't easier; newbies go to find something more enjoyable.
fyp |
|
Idont Getitatall
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 12:14:00 -
[141] - Quote
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:I would rather see a game like eve grow slowly and push CCP because they want to grow just that bit more, then have a game like WOW were it was at 12 million subs and Blizzard could not care about there game because they have too much money to give a ****...
Eve been the size it is, is great because the people become a big family and a lot of people know each other while if you play wow, your see some one once and never see them again in your life on wow.
Eve will grow and keep growing over time, but not like other mmo's, Eve as a game needs to grow before the sub numbers can grow as well. Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full.
Actually in terms of seeing a player twice is more common in wow, as you are only playing with a little fraction of the players, even if it has 12 million subs one is actually playing with 5.000-15.000 players per server unlike in EVE with only 1 server.
Thats one of the great things about eve - one massive universe, so if you want to meet or play with more people then eve is actually bigger than wow :) |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 12:25:00 -
[142] - Quote
Keep in mind server inst sharded so it is actually the bigger player base then one you would meet in WOW.
Also CCP has neglected EVE for quite some time and it backfired on them.
|
Docter Daniel Jackson
Hendrix Angels Fabricated Confabulations
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 12:27:00 -
[143] - Quote
Idont Getitatall wrote:Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:I would rather see a game like eve grow slowly and push CCP because they want to grow just that bit more, then have a game like WOW were it was at 12 million subs and Blizzard could not care about there game because they have too much money to give a ****...
Eve been the size it is, is great because the people become a big family and a lot of people know each other while if you play wow, your see some one once and never see them again in your life on wow.
Eve will grow and keep growing over time, but not like other mmo's, Eve as a game needs to grow before the sub numbers can grow as well. Eve is a sandbox and some times that sandbox can get full. Actually in terms of seeing a player twice is more common in wow, as you are only playing with a little fraction of the players, even if it has 12 million subs one is actually playing with 5.000-15.000 players per server unlike in EVE with only 1 server. Thats one of the great things about eve - one massive universe, so if you want to meet or play with more people then eve is actually bigger than wow :)
You have a point, but I'm more talking about LFR and LFD system which is about putting angry kids together to try have a ***** fight about dps lol.
Also people on a lot of wow servers spend more time trolling trade chat then playing the game... I would know I troll them on a day to day thing to keep my self from been bored lol. |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
259
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 14:28:00 -
[144] - Quote
Most new players get suckered into joining small corps that dont really do anything. They have a bad/boring experience there and eventually quit.
A lot of players want to "get in on the ground floor" which is admirable but it leads to lots and lots of boredom usually.
I've run a highsec corp and i know my corp's lack of activity was the direct reason for at least 2 people quitting. Since then, i've closed my corp and recommend to newbies to join only large alliances.
I recommend increasing Corp/Alliance creation fees to discourage small corps that almost never survive. Or place a limit on how often a player can create a corporation AND require standings to create a corp. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
320
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 14:35:00 -
[145] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:(...
Then there are the players of high-sec, who play eve because they get enjoyment out of the game by doing all the boring stuff. (...)
Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life
Then of course, if a player got a life, or don't feel like making new friends who can stab his back for free, or think that losing his means to have fun is not fun at all, then such player should not be playing EVE... and they aren't, actually. They are leaving the game almost as fast as new players subscribe, thus EVE doesn't grows. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% non-Highsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
22
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 14:36:00 -
[146] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up? Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested? Theories?
In EVE new players are not future end gamers, they are a commodity that is consumed |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
259
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 14:38:00 -
[147] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life
There is no endgame for -anyone-anywhere-. Its a Sandbox. Did you have an End-game when you were playing in the sand box as a kid?
You build your castles, dig your tunnels, roll marbles around your empire and if the other kid had flashy Tonka trucks, you'd go over there and stomp his castle down |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5432
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 14:39:00 -
[148] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life GǪbut that's largely because EVE has no endgame beyond what you define for yourself. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
745
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:09:00 -
[149] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote: Then there are the players of high-sec, who play eve because they get enjoyment out of the game by doing all the boring stuff.
What you find fun in the sandbox is not what others find fun in the sandbox.
But the main reason that people stopped moving out to null-sec is:
- Not understanding how to survive out there, or earn ISK. - Not wanting to play 23x7 (which is mostly a myth). - Null-sec and w-space income potential has not kept up with other areas of the game. - Not everyone wants to play the blob vs blob game. - It all feels "settled".
CCP needs to look at the game balance again. Add more minerals (in total) to the ABC ores to make them better, revisit the income potentials in null-sec and w-space, add more things to the exploration drop tables in null-space / w-space, etc.
Or add more territory. The last territory expansion was the drone regions in 2007 and the w-space regions in 2009 or so. There's been no new territory added to the map since then. Blow the map out, add a dozen new null-sec regions around the edges of the map, which would make it less likely that you can get from one side of the map to another quickly. Triple the number of w-space systems. Encourage a new land-rush. |
highonpop
Void.Tech BLACK-MARK
24
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:14:00 -
[150] - Quote
OP
Eve online is the ONLY mmo game that has GROWN in its number of active players since its release, and continues to grow
you don;t read much do you? |
|
Dragon Outlaw
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
43
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
When my daughter put her gold fish in a bigger fish tank... it got bigger. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1276
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:No theories, just facts. Knowledge about this is laid out on this and the old forums.
In short:
CCP ****** up bigtime, people rioted (Google: Jita riots) and unsubbed, CCP got their ass kicked, Crucible came to make it better.
The End.
And yet were still at 50k players despite this crappy CSM endorsed circle jerking expansion.
Its just 2 or 3 alliances spamming alt accounts and trying to put public pressure on CCP to turn Eve online into "rifters online"
Give us WiS without touching/changing FiS and see the player base grow.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5435
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:And yet were still at 50k players despite this crappy CSM endorsed circle jerking expansion. No. Not GÇ£stillGÇ¥. We're back up to 50k, from the just-over-40k that Incarna caused, and it's because of (not despite) the excellent issue-focused expansion that came out.
Quote:Give us WiS without touching/changing FiS and see the player base grow. No, that's what caused the crash down to 40k. What needs to happen is to give us WiS while simultaneously giving us constant touches and changes to FiSGǪ and they're apparently not able to do that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
67
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:05:00 -
[154] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Most new players get suckered into joining small corps that dont really do anything. They have a bad/boring experience there and eventually quit.
A lot of players want to "get in on the ground floor" which is admirable but it leads to lots and lots of boredom usually.
I've run a highsec corp and i know my corp's lack of activity was the direct reason for at least 2 people quitting. Since then, i've closed my corp and recommend to newbies to join only large alliances.
I recommend increasing Corp/Alliance creation fees to discourage small corps that almost never survive. Or place a limit on how often a player can create a corporation AND require standings to create a corp.
That is a problem with a lot of small corps, even corps that have a 100+ players registered yet only a handful actually playing.
Problem is made worse due to the fact that if you leave the starter corps to try out one of these corps you can't get back to the starter corp you end up in another NPC corp where players have left player corps. In general the starter corps are better that the other NPC corps especially for newer players. |
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:47:00 -
[155] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Word of mouth about EVE has been bad for the last few years.
I am on some forums that are not primarily gaming forums and the consensus opinion on these is that EVE is a game that is going downhill. No one is enthusiastic about EVE and no one says you must try it or it is a great game and at best you say EVE is ok. I have been gaming since 1978. I started with Adventure games (Space Quest), went to Flight Sims (F117 Stealth Fighter, Falcon, etc) and played heavily for years in FPS games. Me and my wife played 8 or so years in versions of Unreal Tournament. I was never really interested in MMO's and I wonder if that put on blinders in some way. It wasn't until 2008 that I even heard of EVE and when my work buddy explained it to me, how it worked I thought "Hmm sounds like a blast." I wanted to do ECM and fly a Scorpion. I started 2 accounts the first week and never looked back, It's all I play now and while I reached my early goal of ECM, I am doing that and much more.
But my point here is that it seemed to take so long in my gaming career before I even heard of Eve Online. I don't live in a cave... Sometimes I wonder if I had heard of it and it didn't click.
So what I am saying, I think the word needs to be spread more. But then again I could just be stupid and not paying attention... |
Ai Shun
351
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:57:00 -
[156] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life
It does. You have to decide what your endgame is. That is the nature of the game.
|
Jame Jarl Retief
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:00:00 -
[157] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote: Theories?
Speaking for myself, EVE is much slower-paced than other MMOs. Some other MMOs are more grindy, but their pace is typically faster. That is, the more you grind, the faster you progress. EVE's real-time training is a major stumbling block for most people.
For example, when I first looked at Ishtar, and saw it would take me 57 days JUST to be able to fly it, without any supporting or weapons still training at all? That's crazy. Show me an MMO where you have to wait 57 days real time for anything. Most other MMOs you hit "endgame" with 6-10 days played - that is have access, at least theoretically, to the best gear in the game.
My first few days in EVE were actually fun. Skill training took from 10 mins to a few hours at most. But then you start hitting skills that take 21+ days, which feels like a plateau, and pushing through it while being acutely aware that nothing you do can speed it up is a bummer.
Yes, I know, there's a general view that everyone these days is looking for instant gratification, and that's what killed WoW (no it wasn't, it was killed by Activision just like Bioware was killed by EA) and blah blah blah. But you have to remember that it was supposed to be a GAME, and people play games for FUN. And honestly, for whom is it fun to wait 30+ days real time to get access to new stuff? I get the whole "EVE is a hobby" thing though, but that's also partially what keeps this game's population from taking off.
I mean, graphically, EVE is probably the best MMO out there today. The amount of detail and quality of it is pretty astounding. Character creator? One of the best, if not THE best, available in an MMO today. If the game itself wasn't so horribly tedious and boring at times, I feel population could have skyrocketed ages ago.
I also don't feel that the whole "risk vs reward" is what's keeping people away. it's part of it, yes, but seeing as 60% of players are in high-sec anyhow and never leave it, what risk is there for them outside of suicide ganks? None. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:49:00 -
[158] - Quote
EvE is a niche game that doesn't hold your hand in any way which is both a blessing and a failure. Players come to EvE full of hope, and then they get crushed by veteran players, who will bald faced tell you that they really don't have an advantage over new players, and walk away laughing at you.
You can either:
1. Realize that you fit right in here, and go on to become a veteran player yourself, by joining a corp, moving to nullsec and waiting for fleets to form 2. Find a way around the problem by doing things that won't put you in combat with veteran players (industry and a host of other solo endeavours) 3. Quit in horror (or shame)...and go on to badmouth the game everywhere you can.
Option 1 seems to appeal to some people. Option 2 seems to appeal to more people than option 1. Option 3 keeps the population static along with normal attrition.
You can't solve this problem without breaking EvE as we know it. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:55:00 -
[159] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:(...
Then there are the players of high-sec, who play eve because they get enjoyment out of the game by doing all the boring stuff. (...) Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life Then of course, if a player got a life, or don't feel like making new friends who can stab his back for free, or think that losing his means to have fun is not fun at all, then such player should not be playing EVE... and they aren't, actually. They are leaving the game almost as fast as new players subscribe, thus EVE doesn't grows.
You dont understand.
It is not loosing that is fun. * It is accumulating riches and avoiding loss when there is a threat to your doing or someone wants to kill you, it gives a sense of accomplishemts that you did something despite of circumstances.
- Hi sec is totally stripped of that thus its boring and people quit fast.
|
Karl Hobb
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:16:00 -
[160] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life Christ, you're a ******* whiner...
I've got a pregnant wife plus a full-time job and I've got so much solo content in this game I don't know where to start. Maybe the difference is that I don't limit myself to high-sec and I don't create endless whine threads when I lose my 'Cane to a gate camp. I don't PvP much either (playing the prey is as much a thrill for me as blowing other people up), but I don't shy away from it; it's the bread and butter of this game. I'm ******* terrible at EVE.
"Fun fact: carebears are not necessary for the game to function." --áTippia |
|
Ai Shun
352
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:42:00 -
[161] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:For example, when I first looked at Ishtar, and saw it would take me 57 days JUST to be able to fly it, without any supporting or weapons still training at all? That's crazy. Show me an MMO where you have to wait 57 days real time for anything. Most other MMOs you hit "endgame" with 6-10 days played - that is have access, at least theoretically, to the best gear in the game.
Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Yes, I know, there's a general view that everyone these days is looking for instant gratification, and that's what killed WoW (no it wasn't, it was killed by Activision just like Bioware was killed by EA) and blah blah blah. But you have to remember that it was supposed to be a GAME, and people play games for FUN. And honestly, for whom is it fun to wait 30+ days real time to get access to new stuff? I get the whole "EVE is a hobby" thing though, but that's also partially what keeps this game's population from taking off.
It is a slower paced game; that is just the way it is. The key is to set yourself intermediary goals and to not only focus on "ZOMG I iz getting more powerful !11!!". You can do a lot with other ships that you are trained to fly and you can accomplish a lot in-game.
But that is the design difference - EVE is aimed at people who can set goals for themselves in-game. It is not intended for people who need to see skill / power / gear levels increase. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:49:00 -
[162] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content.
In ToR you can hit the endgame even faster than that, granted its a new game without a lot of endgame content yet. |
Ai Shun
352
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:53:00 -
[163] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content.
Wow. I last played actively with Burning Crusade, dabbled a bit with Lich King but had no idea that it was so easy now to get to the top tier hardmodes! So what do people do when they are fully geared out and max level within a couple of weeks? They're basically out of content. Or do they just sit there in their pretty gear doing the same things over and over and over?
|
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:57:00 -
[164] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content. Wow. I last played actively with Burning Crusade, dabbled a bit with Lich King but had no idea that it was so easy now to get to the top tier hardmodes! So what do people do when they are fully geared out and max level within a couple of weeks? They're basically out of content. Or do they just sit there in their pretty gear doing the same things over and over and over?
Yeah, BC had raid attunements which drew out that process quite a bit.
These days, the hardcores sit around and dream of Kung-fu pandas and Pokemon pet fighting that's coming in the next expansion. Subs are dropping continually.
The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally. |
Ai Shun
352
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Posted - 2012.03.12 21:26:00 -
[165] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally.
Same. |
Avid Bumhumper
Furian Necromongers
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:50:00 -
[166] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline. I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish. The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth.
You do realize that Eve-offlines graphs go right to left?
Eve still has not recovered from the stupidity of last year....and personally, spiffing up noob ships really shouldn't even be on the radar....
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1228
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Posted - 2012.03.12 21:58:00 -
[167] - Quote
Avid Bumhumper wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline. I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish. The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth. You do realize that Eve-offlines graphs go right to left? Eve still has not recovered from the stupidity of last year....and personally, spiffing up noob ships really shouldn't even be on the radar....
And yet subscription numbers continue to rise... When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
321
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:15:00 -
[168] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life It does. You have to decide what your endgame is. That is the nature of the game.
I dissent. I figured my first goal in the first months here, and then I learned that such goal was unachievable by the rules.
I don't want a new ride. I want to be able to set long term goals that can be achieved on my own (solo endgame), one hour at a time (casual endgame), without it all being fukked by the first ******** blob passing by (hisec endgame), or being stolen by the first moderfuker I entrust (solo endgame again).
Or, if none of the above, i want to be able to realize my first goal and be able to hit back griefers as hard and as impunely as they do to innocent players, so they shed a lot of tears and leave the game with a lesson that actions have got consequences. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% non-Highsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Ai Shun
352
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Posted - 2012.03.12 22:18:00 -
[169] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I don't want a new ride. I want to be able to set long term goals that can be achieved on my own (solo endgame), one hour at a time (casual endgame), without it all being fukked by the first ******** blob passing by (hisec endgame), or being stolen by the first moderfuker I entrust (solo endgame again).
You want to play a single-player game.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Or, if none of the above, i want to be able to realize my first goal and be able to hit back griefers as hard and as impunely as they do to innocent players, so they shed a lot of tears and leave the game with a lesson that actions have got consequences.
Nobody is stopping you except yourself. Go for it!
(We were ganked, so this may be a double post) |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
70
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:25:00 -
[170] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:(We were ganked, so this may be a double post)
I've been getting that a lot today, 1st time I've been getting that over the last two months. |
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Ai Shun
352
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Posted - 2012.03.12 22:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:I've been getting that a lot today, 1st time I've been getting that over the last two months.
Yes, it started happening very regularly for me since Sunday. Ah well, CCP. Got to love them.
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Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
31
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:43:00 -
[172] - Quote
I don't get it... Thousands of players knew thousands of potential players whom would join just if they got rid of learning skills...
They did get rid of learning skills so where are thos thousands of newsubs?
Oh wait... there was another motive.................. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
413
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:51:00 -
[173] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally. Same. Meh... you never know. It's about incentive. If EvE gameplay provides a significant challenge and is a well balanced, well-oiled machine, word might get out that EvE is in and of itself the definitive video game "end game". While I agree that may not bring in WoW numbers, it might just bring in a mil or two to the player base, and those players will represent the upper cusp of competitive players around the world. We could have a very long way to go until we see what EvE could be.
I don't think it's the ruthless PvP style that's holding EvE back atm though. I think the ruthless PvP style is a draw.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
413
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:53:00 -
[174] - Quote
Schmacos tryne wrote:I don't get it... Thousands of players knew thousands of potential players whom would join just if they got rid of learning skills...
They did get rid of learning skills so where are thos thousands of newsubs?
Oh wait... there was another motive.................. /signed. I'm on-board with dropping SP altogether. (97mil SP here...)
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Jame Jarl Retief
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.03.13 02:07:00 -
[175] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Yep, you totally can. At least when I was playing the game (vanilla and for a while following TBC, until Activision took over). I don't know more recently, but I'm guessing it's only gotten easier since then. Yeah, Molten Core with a bunch of new level 60s wasn't a walk in the park, but with proper crafted gear it was doable.
And it's also 57 days JUST to get to fly the ship. Doesn't include weapons, support skills, done skills. What is Ishtar without T2 sentries or heavies? Add a month for each. Drone Interfacing V? Another month! T2 medium hybrids? Another month, month and a half. Fitting skills? Another month. Etc.,etc. See the problem? In EVE, it takes months JUST to get to the hull.
For giggles, I just went to EVEMon and took Ishtar and the skills recommended for it with certificates. Result? 89 days! And this is on a character that easily runs L4s. Imagine what it would be for a brand new character. And this isn't "endgame", which is just a HAC.
Quote:It is a slower paced game; that is just the way it is. The key is to set yourself intermediary goals and to not only focus on "ZOMG I iz getting more powerful !11!!". You can do a lot with other ships that you are trained to fly and you can accomplish a lot in-game.
But that is the design difference - EVE is aimed at people who can set goals for themselves in-game. It is not intended for people who need to see skill / power / gear levels increase.
There are limits to what is acceptable and what is not. As a new player, just trying the game out of curiosity, a 100+ days commitment is a little more than can be reasonably expected. Heck, I know people whose longest lasting serious RELATIONSHIP was shorter than 100 days for crying out loud. And this is a GAME, or supposed to be.
First, remember the learning skills? Yeah, they're gone now. But until about a year ago, they were a reality every new player had to face. You were basically told "Welcome to EVE. Unless you want to gimp your training horribly, start training learning skills." So you asked "OK, what can I do in the meantime?" And the answer? "Uhh, why around in your newbie ship? That's about it." That, by itself, must have cost the game tens of thousands of subs. Seriously, picture WoW, where before you could actually play the game you had to wait for a month for your character to learn how to learn, and meanwhile you are stuck at level 1 killing level 1 pigs. Can you see the game succeeding?
Now it's slightly better. But still far, far too slow. For example, a player decides he wants "endgame", to fly a carrier for example. Lofty goal. But realistically, how long before he can do it even remotely effectively? As a new player? 200 days, minimum? And that's without skilling up to V on everything. If you want to level V everything, it'll take you a little over THREE YEARS. I'm sorry, but some of us had pets that didn't live that long (it was a hamster! I'm not a horrible person).
That's the issue with EVE. Most people expect progress, and they want to have fun while progressing, without getting bored. EVE doesn't deliver on this front, not at all. Within a month of starting to play the game, you'll start hitting plateaus with seemingly meaningless skills taking up to a week to advance just one level. Good example is Mechanic V, which is required for a LARII. Takes a week to train it. And by itself, all it does it increase HULL hitpoints 5%. How useful is that, honestly? It's just a means to an end. But still far too slow.
I know old hands are really attached to their ginormous SP buffer and all the advantages it offers, but for a new player this is fairly crippling. Even if it can be argued that perhaps it's not so bad if you only come up against people who stick to frigates, just MENTALLY it's really depressing to be looking at a 3 months' wait before you can even get inside a ship you want to try. Now imagine if the ship doesn't handle the way you hoped it would, or the weapons system you liked doesn't quite work the way you expected it to. Time to retrain, starting with level 1?
Sorry about the gloomy post, but that's the main reason EVE was so hard to get into. For me, anyway. Very few MMOs do such a fantastic job of totally depressing a player as EVE. Especially now that time to train shows up in the info window. Nothing beats looking at a module and seeing 42 days, 68 days, etc. Yeah, not depressing at all...
I'm not asking for instant gratification, mind you, but EVE sometimes goes past ridiculous and goes right to...LUDICROUS SPEED! GO! |
Ai Shun
353
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 02:21:00 -
[176] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Sorry about the gloomy post, but that's the main reason EVE was so hard to get into. For me, anyway. Very few MMOs do such a fantastic job of totally depressing a player as EVE. Especially now that time to train shows up in the info window. Nothing beats looking at a module and seeing 42 days, 68 days, etc. Yeah, not depressing at all...
Ok, my experience is vastly different and I'm a year and a bit old as a character. I set myself goals; e.g. I want to train for F. But while I'm training for X, I can already do A - E and will continue doing those until F is ready. Then it is on to the next goal. It seems reasonable to me, not depressing at all. Even though this is a game, it is a different game from others that requires a bit more planning, intelligence and commitment.
(P.S. Enigeiets te doen met Piet Retief?)
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Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 02:43:00 -
[177] - Quote
Given that the number of active accounts continues to grow at a steady rate and has since the day Eve went online, even through the utter filth that was Incara, why does this thread even exist?
I'll see if I can dig up a lovely graph made by a corp mate showing a nice gentle population curve with little dips and humps where the awful content and awesome content was introduced, respectively. |
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