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Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Hoban Gallifrey on 13/12/2007 13:55:05 Just an idea that popped into my head. What if CCP someone to be the resident forum Dev. The people here say CCP don't communicate and I think its mostly due to the fact that they are trying to make a video game (or two) atm. So why not install a forum warrior that would have a datbase of knowledge beind them so they could answer questions swiftly and give feed back to both us and CCP. They could also be in charge of following up suggestions and questions internally, without any other priorities that the rest of the team have. With our elder council liason team thing coming in I think a Forum Dev or maybe a small team of them wold be a helpful addition. Before you say we have them, I don't mean the new Moderators, whos job is to... well, moderate. As they have a different role and feel which wouldn't quite work with their locking and cleaning of threads. To sum up what I feel this position would be like, think CJ Craig from westwing.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:56:00 - [2] /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums..

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:57:00 - [3] Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. out of curiosity - do you consider the above post to be an improvement? forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:00:00 - [4] Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. Well they aren't doing their jobs right because... who? Perhaps thay have too much on their plate?
Gungankllr Caldari Salient Uprising	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:00:00 - [5] Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting?
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies?
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:05:00 - [7] Bad idea. People tend to take dev posts as either fact or at least offical statements of CCPs view/stance/whatever which can all to easily lead to drama. Couple that with the fact the player base will descend on even the slightest mistake in a Dev post like rabid vultures with cries of how CCP clearly don't know anything about their own game and how we're all doomed. There's also the fairly high probability of people spamming topics with titles such as "DEVS RESPOND HERE"/ "CCP RESPONSE REQUIRED" etc purely to get some sort of dev response. Those that don't get dev responses in their threads will cry foul at people who do claiming favouritism regardless of the relative quality of forum posts. My main evidence for this is that it actually happened for a while when some of the devs started taking a more active role in the forums and you still get such threads now and then.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:07:00 - [8] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. out of curiosity - do you consider the above post to be an improvement? i wouldnt mind a "click" on this thread really... atleast it would get me back to work lol...

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Wild Rho Bad idea. People tend to take dev posts as either fact or at least offical statements of CCPs view/stance/whatever which can all to easily lead to drama. Couple that with the fact the player base will descend on even the slightest mistake in a Dev post like rabid vultures with cries of how CCP clearly don't know anything about their own game and how we're all doomed. There's also the fairly high probability of people spamming topics with titles such as "DEVS RESPOND HERE"/ "CCP RESPONSE REQUIRED" etc purely to get some sort of dev response. Those that don't get dev responses in their threads will cry foul at people who do claiming favouritism regardless of the relative quality of forum posts. My main evidence for this is that it actually happened for a while when some of the devs started taking a more active role in the forums and you still get such threads now and then. In all fairness I don't think the level of those threads has or will change, apart from less capital letters. And I have seen Dev posts from two different people that contradict each other. Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:09:00 - [11] Perhaps one of the Froum Devs should make a sticky in each forum for common questions, such as FOTM in general discussion with an official statement, removing the need for multiple verssions of the same topic.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [12] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? I know I used to have a set of 'dev slapdown' links, that I reposted when I saw a 'wahh wahh waah' thread on a common subject. Sadly they're all out of date now. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [13] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies?[/quote Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Kirjava Perhaps one of the Froum Devs should make a sticky in each forum for common questions, such as FOTM in general discussion with an official statement, removing the need for multiple verssions of the same topic. A good idea, and thank you for posting it.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:18:00 - [15] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? I know I used to have a set of 'dev slapdown' links, that I reposted when I saw a 'wahh wahh waah' thread on a common subject. Sadly they're all out of date now. I think that is a sign that we need more dev slap down.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:18:00 - [16] Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/12/2007 14:20:44 Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey In all fairness I don't think the level of those threads has or will change, apart from less capital letters. It has died off a fair bit over the last few months (especially when it came to excessive use of caps) and although it won't ever go away completely if you had regular dev responses you'd see these types of threads dominating most of the forums. Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey And I have seen Dev posts from two different people that contradict each other. Which proves my first point. People seem to forget Devs are not infallible but would rather make a huge drama out of any mistake they make. More posts mean it's more likely to happen and so more drama. Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot. I wish I could agree but I don't. Even if a dev answers a question or posts a sticky with answers you can be certain there are going to be another dozen or so topics asking the exact same question anyway - likely accusing the devs of not responding to said issue at the same time. As for the answers themselves: more often that not players will get more riled up when a dev responds with a different answer to the one they actually want. EDIT: clearing up typos and reworded a bit better
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot. I wish I could agree but I don't. Even if a dev answers a question or posts a sticky with answers you can be certain there are going to be another dozen or so topics asking the exact same question anyway - likely accusing the devs of not responding to said issue at the same time. As for the answers themselves: more often that not players will get more riled up when a dev responds with a different answer to the one they actually want. EDIT: clearing up typos and reworded a bit better I don't agree, when a reply comes we see a lot of posts that say thanks X nice to hear some answers etc etc. If more threads appear then ISD need to get on top of it.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:34:00 - [18] It's bad enough we have ISD censoring everything important that people ought to know, the last thing we need is actual CCP staff to be the Thought Police.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Fifth Horseman Click - you are not allowed to speak badly of us - PseudoISD Kirjava Meh, thats normal... Wait....
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? They used to have "deputies", as in volunteer forum mods. They were disbanded and haven't been replaced with payed staff so currently it's nobody's "job" to police the forums. Some of the old guys like Valorem and some bug hunters have been mucking in to help but basically we don't have forum mods any more. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Fifth Horseman It's bad enough we have ISD censoring everything important that people ought to know, the last thing we need is actual CCP staff to be the Thought Police. 100% agree. i've owned my own message board in the past and moderated a couple as well. moderators tend to go a little overboard for the most part and this is just from personal experience. take these boards for example. a single person cries offensive and a filter is installed or conversation involving many other people is just plain deleted and stifled. message boards are to ENCOURAGE dialog, not restrict it. when you let people who get offended at anything and everything dictate what gets censored and what doesn't, you've pretty much got a worthless medium for communication. i don't want to discuss moderation specifically but it would prove my point. just recently i witnessed (and screen shotted) a thread with over 1000 views and 2 pages of posts deleted. 2 pages of dialog deleted and the op was slightly offensive with racial stereotypes in the OP and it remained. and that's just one example. no consistency, very little to standard. The official goon buzz-kill.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:45:00 - [23] Agree with Empyre, why does dialouge between a player and a Dev get deleted? If it is there then the player wants it in the open, and the Dev should be prepared to assume anything given to a player is in the public domain, so why bother?
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. You sir, said exactly what I was thinking, pure brilliance. I salute you o7
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:05:00 - [25] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/12/2007 15:07:45 Message boards are to encourage dialogue, yes. But the problem is, when you have a situation, in an entirely hypothetical case, where you have a large number of posters posting rubbish, trolling or otherwise turning a forum into a sewer, then you lose the ability to have reasonable dialogue. This goes down to moderation policies. And I don't wish to discuss the policy of these forums, but more the general sense. Some forums i've visited are heavily moderated. Anything remotely unconstuctive got modded, anything that the moderators deemed 'generally not good' got moderated. The forum was constructive and useful, because offtopic post got removed, and repeated offenders were quickly removed from posting rights. Other forums I've visited have been relatively loosely moderated. You still need a measure of it, but what you have in a general sense is 'regulars' laying the forum smackdown. It gets a little cliquey, but you do end up with the same net effect. Idiocy is not rewarded, and the 'regulars' are confident in speaking their mind about stuff they don't want on their forum. Both approaches can work very well indeed, and it actually doesn't matter all that much. The latter tends to lead to ... shall we say more robust discussion, and therefore a less 'family friendly' forum, but it is constructive. The danger comes when you try and do a 'halfway house' approach. The people who respect the forum rules, continue to do so, and thus refrain from ... shall we say the negative parts of the posting experience. Y'know, stuff like personal attacks, and the more shameless forms of trolling. People who do not respect the forum rules, continue to not do so, and degrade the quality of the forum. If they're lacking feedback mechanisms in the form of being modded and banned quick, or getting flamed off the forums by 'community' then you end up with a downhill spiral, as the 'respectful' posters disappear, due to apathy, going elsewhere, or otherwise just figuring that a forum is so full of propaganda, rhetoric and smacktalk, that they may as well join in, just so 'their side' gets noticed too. So it goes. Forum modding is difficult business in and real size of community, and I envy the mods of this forum not at all. The lack of devposting is, IMO an issue with the community making it actually a bad idea for a dev to post anything. That's our failing. I have considered on numerous occasions trying to perform 'forum slapdown' on the most obvious offenders, but I wish to remain able to post, and therefore don't want to be making personal attacks. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:14:00 - [26] Point is, you can say whatever you want to the forum trolls, flamers and whiners...they'll keep going regardless shrugs.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. Exactly. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:28:00 - [28] There is some good feedback in this thread, some decent points made and some that are just way out there. As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. Our intention is to bring moderation in-house and change the forum rules a bit, something I hope will transpire before the end of the month. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:35:00 - [29] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/12/2007 15:36:02 Originally by: Cadela Fria Point is, you can say whatever you want to the forum trolls, flamers and whiners...they'll keep going regardless shrugs. Not convinced actually. OK, it doesn't always apply, but if a forum is kept 'proactively clean' by flaming idiocy, then it doesn't start to degenerate, because the troll doesn't get fed. It does though stop being viable beyond a certain point where the trolls have taken over though. Forum warning systems can work for dealing with that, but actually the ones that leave warnings on record indefinitely, and auto-ban can actually lead to less moderators being willing to 'warn'. An escalating, but expiring system of warnings can actually be much more effective - people get feedback when they're 'crossing the line' but there's not the axe of 'get 10 warnings and be banned' hanging over their head forever. Edit: Thanks Kieron. Look forward to that. Please give your mods an generous rein to punish the unbelievers, and make the forums a shiny friendly place again :). -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:35:00 - [30] Dev's mostly are pretty good at responding, it just takes a few days sometimes... To think they have to sift through the forums like the rest of us to find the threads.. ugh Might be nice (and maybe this happens) to have a few people able to bring the right threads to the attention of the right devs. The forums are fairly badly coded from what I can see from an 'ease of management' perspective. Much time is spent locking threads that it shouldn't have allowed bumping of / creation of by certain chars in NPC corps etc... some more automation there would be great so that mods don't have to lock necro threads and NPC corp threads in COAD etc. (Also filtering of some that are selling isk, though the few that get by in comparison to the amount that must be out there shows that maybe something like this is already happening - I hope automatically). It's great having a forum where the devs that make the decisions answer the questions, for the most part this means less ambigious answers to questions.

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