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Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Hoban Gallifrey on 13/12/2007 13:55:05 Just an idea that popped into my head. What if CCP someone to be the resident forum Dev. The people here say CCP don't communicate and I think its mostly due to the fact that they are trying to make a video game (or two) atm. So why not install a forum warrior that would have a datbase of knowledge beind them so they could answer questions swiftly and give feed back to both us and CCP. They could also be in charge of following up suggestions and questions internally, without any other priorities that the rest of the team have. With our elder council liason team thing coming in I think a Forum Dev or maybe a small team of them wold be a helpful addition. Before you say we have them, I don't mean the new Moderators, whos job is to... well, moderate. As they have a different role and feel which wouldn't quite work with their locking and cleaning of threads. To sum up what I feel this position would be like, think CJ Craig from westwing.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:56:00 - [2] /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums..

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:57:00 - [3] Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. out of curiosity - do you consider the above post to be an improvement? forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:00:00 - [4] Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. Well they aren't doing their jobs right because... who? Perhaps thay have too much on their plate?
Gungankllr Caldari Salient Uprising	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:00:00 - [5] Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting?
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies?
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:05:00 - [7] Bad idea. People tend to take dev posts as either fact or at least offical statements of CCPs view/stance/whatever which can all to easily lead to drama. Couple that with the fact the player base will descend on even the slightest mistake in a Dev post like rabid vultures with cries of how CCP clearly don't know anything about their own game and how we're all doomed. There's also the fairly high probability of people spamming topics with titles such as "DEVS RESPOND HERE"/ "CCP RESPONSE REQUIRED" etc purely to get some sort of dev response. Those that don't get dev responses in their threads will cry foul at people who do claiming favouritism regardless of the relative quality of forum posts. My main evidence for this is that it actually happened for a while when some of the devs started taking a more active role in the forums and you still get such threads now and then.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:07:00 - [8] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. out of curiosity - do you consider the above post to be an improvement? i wouldnt mind a "click" on this thread really... atleast it would get me back to work lol...

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Wild Rho Bad idea. People tend to take dev posts as either fact or at least offical statements of CCPs view/stance/whatever which can all to easily lead to drama. Couple that with the fact the player base will descend on even the slightest mistake in a Dev post like rabid vultures with cries of how CCP clearly don't know anything about their own game and how we're all doomed. There's also the fairly high probability of people spamming topics with titles such as "DEVS RESPOND HERE"/ "CCP RESPONSE REQUIRED" etc purely to get some sort of dev response. Those that don't get dev responses in their threads will cry foul at people who do claiming favouritism regardless of the relative quality of forum posts. My main evidence for this is that it actually happened for a while when some of the devs started taking a more active role in the forums and you still get such threads now and then. In all fairness I don't think the level of those threads has or will change, apart from less capital letters. And I have seen Dev posts from two different people that contradict each other. Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:09:00 - [11] Perhaps one of the Froum Devs should make a sticky in each forum for common questions, such as FOTM in general discussion with an official statement, removing the need for multiple verssions of the same topic.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [12] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? I know I used to have a set of 'dev slapdown' links, that I reposted when I saw a 'wahh wahh waah' thread on a common subject. Sadly they're all out of date now. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [13] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies?[/quote Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Kirjava Perhaps one of the Froum Devs should make a sticky in each forum for common questions, such as FOTM in general discussion with an official statement, removing the need for multiple verssions of the same topic. A good idea, and thank you for posting it.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:18:00 - [15] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? I know I used to have a set of 'dev slapdown' links, that I reposted when I saw a 'wahh wahh waah' thread on a common subject. Sadly they're all out of date now. I think that is a sign that we need more dev slap down.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:18:00 - [16] Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/12/2007 14:20:44 Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey In all fairness I don't think the level of those threads has or will change, apart from less capital letters. It has died off a fair bit over the last few months (especially when it came to excessive use of caps) and although it won't ever go away completely if you had regular dev responses you'd see these types of threads dominating most of the forums. Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey And I have seen Dev posts from two different people that contradict each other. Which proves my first point. People seem to forget Devs are not infallible but would rather make a huge drama out of any mistake they make. More posts mean it's more likely to happen and so more drama. Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot. I wish I could agree but I don't. Even if a dev answers a question or posts a sticky with answers you can be certain there are going to be another dozen or so topics asking the exact same question anyway - likely accusing the devs of not responding to said issue at the same time. As for the answers themselves: more often that not players will get more riled up when a dev responds with a different answer to the one they actually want. EDIT: clearing up typos and reworded a bit better
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Also when people get some answers they calm down quite a lot. I wish I could agree but I don't. Even if a dev answers a question or posts a sticky with answers you can be certain there are going to be another dozen or so topics asking the exact same question anyway - likely accusing the devs of not responding to said issue at the same time. As for the answers themselves: more often that not players will get more riled up when a dev responds with a different answer to the one they actually want. EDIT: clearing up typos and reworded a bit better I don't agree, when a reply comes we see a lot of posts that say thanks X nice to hear some answers etc etc. If more threads appear then ISD need to get on top of it.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:34:00 - [18] It's bad enough we have ISD censoring everything important that people ought to know, the last thing we need is actual CCP staff to be the Thought Police.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Fifth Horseman Click - you are not allowed to speak badly of us - PseudoISD Kirjava Meh, thats normal... Wait....
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? They used to have "deputies", as in volunteer forum mods. They were disbanded and haven't been replaced with payed staff so currently it's nobody's "job" to police the forums. Some of the old guys like Valorem and some bug hunters have been mucking in to help but basically we don't have forum mods any more. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Fifth Horseman It's bad enough we have ISD censoring everything important that people ought to know, the last thing we need is actual CCP staff to be the Thought Police. 100% agree. i've owned my own message board in the past and moderated a couple as well. moderators tend to go a little overboard for the most part and this is just from personal experience. take these boards for example. a single person cries offensive and a filter is installed or conversation involving many other people is just plain deleted and stifled. message boards are to ENCOURAGE dialog, not restrict it. when you let people who get offended at anything and everything dictate what gets censored and what doesn't, you've pretty much got a worthless medium for communication. i don't want to discuss moderation specifically but it would prove my point. just recently i witnessed (and screen shotted) a thread with over 1000 views and 2 pages of posts deleted. 2 pages of dialog deleted and the op was slightly offensive with racial stereotypes in the OP and it remained. and that's just one example. no consistency, very little to standard. The official goon buzz-kill.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:45:00 - [23] Agree with Empyre, why does dialouge between a player and a Dev get deleted? If it is there then the player wants it in the open, and the Dev should be prepared to assume anything given to a player is in the public domain, so why bother?
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. You sir, said exactly what I was thinking, pure brilliance. I salute you o7
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:05:00 - [25] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/12/2007 15:07:45 Message boards are to encourage dialogue, yes. But the problem is, when you have a situation, in an entirely hypothetical case, where you have a large number of posters posting rubbish, trolling or otherwise turning a forum into a sewer, then you lose the ability to have reasonable dialogue. This goes down to moderation policies. And I don't wish to discuss the policy of these forums, but more the general sense. Some forums i've visited are heavily moderated. Anything remotely unconstuctive got modded, anything that the moderators deemed 'generally not good' got moderated. The forum was constructive and useful, because offtopic post got removed, and repeated offenders were quickly removed from posting rights. Other forums I've visited have been relatively loosely moderated. You still need a measure of it, but what you have in a general sense is 'regulars' laying the forum smackdown. It gets a little cliquey, but you do end up with the same net effect. Idiocy is not rewarded, and the 'regulars' are confident in speaking their mind about stuff they don't want on their forum. Both approaches can work very well indeed, and it actually doesn't matter all that much. The latter tends to lead to ... shall we say more robust discussion, and therefore a less 'family friendly' forum, but it is constructive. The danger comes when you try and do a 'halfway house' approach. The people who respect the forum rules, continue to do so, and thus refrain from ... shall we say the negative parts of the posting experience. Y'know, stuff like personal attacks, and the more shameless forms of trolling. People who do not respect the forum rules, continue to not do so, and degrade the quality of the forum. If they're lacking feedback mechanisms in the form of being modded and banned quick, or getting flamed off the forums by 'community' then you end up with a downhill spiral, as the 'respectful' posters disappear, due to apathy, going elsewhere, or otherwise just figuring that a forum is so full of propaganda, rhetoric and smacktalk, that they may as well join in, just so 'their side' gets noticed too. So it goes. Forum modding is difficult business in and real size of community, and I envy the mods of this forum not at all. The lack of devposting is, IMO an issue with the community making it actually a bad idea for a dev to post anything. That's our failing. I have considered on numerous occasions trying to perform 'forum slapdown' on the most obvious offenders, but I wish to remain able to post, and therefore don't want to be making personal attacks. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:14:00 - [26] Point is, you can say whatever you want to the forum trolls, flamers and whiners...they'll keep going regardless shrugs.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. Exactly. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:28:00 - [28] There is some good feedback in this thread, some decent points made and some that are just way out there. As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. Our intention is to bring moderation in-house and change the forum rules a bit, something I hope will transpire before the end of the month. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:35:00 - [29] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/12/2007 15:36:02 Originally by: Cadela Fria Point is, you can say whatever you want to the forum trolls, flamers and whiners...they'll keep going regardless shrugs. Not convinced actually. OK, it doesn't always apply, but if a forum is kept 'proactively clean' by flaming idiocy, then it doesn't start to degenerate, because the troll doesn't get fed. It does though stop being viable beyond a certain point where the trolls have taken over though. Forum warning systems can work for dealing with that, but actually the ones that leave warnings on record indefinitely, and auto-ban can actually lead to less moderators being willing to 'warn'. An escalating, but expiring system of warnings can actually be much more effective - people get feedback when they're 'crossing the line' but there's not the axe of 'get 10 warnings and be banned' hanging over their head forever. Edit: Thanks Kieron. Look forward to that. Please give your mods an generous rein to punish the unbelievers, and make the forums a shiny friendly place again :). -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:35:00 - [30] Dev's mostly are pretty good at responding, it just takes a few days sometimes... To think they have to sift through the forums like the rest of us to find the threads.. ugh Might be nice (and maybe this happens) to have a few people able to bring the right threads to the attention of the right devs. The forums are fairly badly coded from what I can see from an 'ease of management' perspective. Much time is spent locking threads that it shouldn't have allowed bumping of / creation of by certain chars in NPC corps etc... some more automation there would be great so that mods don't have to lock necro threads and NPC corp threads in COAD etc. (Also filtering of some that are selling isk, though the few that get by in comparison to the amount that must be out there shows that maybe something like this is already happening - I hope automatically). It's great having a forum where the devs that make the decisions answer the questions, for the most part this means less ambigious answers to questions.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:58:00 - [31] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Valorum its the job of you and your associates to deal with those posts 24/7 (obviously im sure between you its been worked out that coverage is more or less complete depending on post traffic at difernt times during the day). The Dev should answer the well written, many page threads even if the answer is no. And heck if there is a badly written many page thread about something hte Dev should get you guys to lock it or say so himself. Seems if its not something CCP like they ignor it rather than shutting it down by saying no and shortly I will add our reasons. You could make this forum much better if you just communicated more, both positively and negatively. In general, it's the players that drove them away. You used to see developers of all shapes and sizes hanging out on the forums, acting silly, answering as many questions as they possibly could. Then the T20 thing happened, and now these forums are more akin to an open sewer than anything that even closely resembles the community it used to be. Almost as a rule players are hostile, not only to each other but to the developers themselves. A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. No sir. Don't pin this one on CCP, take a good look around here and you'll have your answer why. This. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:59:00 - [32] Part of the reason why you hardly see Devs posting is due to the ever present "BUT YOU PROMISED IT!" syndrome, whereby a Dev would say off the cuff that they're maybe perhaps thinking about changing something that a player suggested, but then when it didn't appear in the very next patch players would whine that the Dev promised that a change was being made.
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:01:00 - [33] While you're at it, you might want to get some debuggers to clean up your poorly written software.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:08:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP kieron There is some good feedback in this thread, some decent points made and some that are just way out there. As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. Our intention is to bring moderation in-house and change the forum rules a bit, something I hope will transpire before the end of the month. Thankyou.
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Pitt Bull While you're at it, you might want to get some debuggers to clean up your poorly written software. You sir are the type of person we are talking about when we say the forums are a cesspool these days. If you had bothered to read a bit higher up in the thread: Originally by: Winterblink A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. - Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:19:00 - [36] Edited by: Hoban Gallifrey on 13/12/2007 16:20:19 Originally by: Pitt Bull While you're at it, you might want to get some debuggers to clean up your poorly written software. If I was ISD/CCP i would delete this post as off topic. And take any fall out or tin foil hattery. Just to give an example of what sort of forum could be created.
Xerita	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:34:00 - [37] Wow, an opinion is obviously not good enough for this forum.
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Pitt Bull Trolling removed. Please stay on topic - Valorem. You sir are the type of person we are talking about when we say the forums are a cesspool these days. If you had bothered to read a bit higher up in the thread: Originally by: Winterblink A gold bar next to a post is a reason for someone to jump in and dump their own issues and rants in the hopes it'll get seen by someone important, rather than write something coherent and constructive. So you're saying their software is not buggy, and I'm the troll...?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Edited by: Hoban Gallifrey on 13/12/2007 16:20:19 Originally by: Pitt Bull While you're at it, you might want to get some debuggers to clean up your poorly written software. If I was ISD/CCP i would delete this post as off topic. And take any fall out or tin foil hattery. Just to give an example of what sort of forum could be created. +apply a warning to the poster's account. Probably a good thing I ain't a mod. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:40:00 - [40] So trolling is okay, like if I personally attack another persons post and then chat about it instead of the topic. But posting your valid opinion is a trol and should have you removed from the forums... this is all starting to make sense now...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:42:00 - [41] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/12/2007 16:42:42 Originally by: Pitt Bull So you're saying their software is not buggy, and I'm the troll...? No, what he's saying is that you've just been a troll trying to drag down the quality level in a previously constructive thread, by posting offtopic and flaming. Which, ironically enough, was about the amount of trolls and idiots on this forum at the moment. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:43:00 - [42] Originally by: Xerita Wow, an opinion is obviously not good enough for this forum. Opinions are like *******s: everyone has one, but you need to supply a good reason to get people to take a look at yours. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:50:00 - [43] Originally by: James Lyrus No, what he's saying is that you've just been a troll trying to drag down the quality level in a previously constructive thread, by posting offtopic and flaming. Which, ironically enough, was about the amount of trolls and idiots on this forum at the moment. Actually I wasn't referring to him directly at all, since his posts came after mine. :p warp drive active \| nature vraie
Xerita	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:50:00 - [44] So when i go to forum settings, and I click default character. Then I go to post and when I log in its not my "Default" character anymore. Or I post and OOPS its my alt posting. That's not a bug that requires forum devs?
Barrick Stormsworn Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:35:00 - [45] First, thanks for the response Kieron. Second, and a bit off topic, you know what I'd really love? Not having to log in three times to post a reply -_-; Third, I miss the volunteer mods :-( Never understood why they were disbanded. The world was a brighter, happier place filled with rainbows and kittens and unicorns all trotting along singing la la la on their way to candy mountain. Also, kidneys for everybody! Originally by: Tarminic OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
flashfreaking LFC FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:40:00 - [46] I have to say, having mods that applied specificly to do the Forum Job would be a good thing, as that would remove any excuse (not saying they r using excuses now) but I think it could improve the forum. But ofc, what Winterblink said is true as well, we need to look in the mirror every once and a while. Disallowed sig graphic. Send an e-mail to [email protected] when it meets the forum signature guidelines. ~Saint
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Xerita So when i go to forum settings, and I click default character. Then I go to post and when I log in its not my "Default" character anymore. Or I post and OOPS its my alt posting. That's not a bug that requires forum devs? 1st, a Dev we are talking about would be communicating not programming. 2nd, i have never had the problem myself, and are you sure its not something on your end. 3rd, if you want to discuss another issue start a new thread.
Whitney Novak	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:55:00 - [48] Edited by: Whitney Novak on 13/12/2007 17:59:51 My job in real life is a "community manager" as such I am responsible to a large publishing house for their user generated content. This is a new role for the company I work for, and the first hurdle to overcome was to get the message through that forums are not an avenue for the companies customers to talk directly to the company. E-mail and phones exist for that. They exist to promote discussion amongst the website users, any input directly from the company is a bonus, and should not be expected as a right. The company may use the forums to gauge responses to various issues, having a readily available pool of interested people is one of the reasons for having forums. But that doesnt mean that the company has to act upon or deliver whatever the community demands. One of the roles of a community mananger is to notice issues on the forums that may be of interest to the company and to bring them to the attention of the relevant person, It is not a role to ensure those issues are replied too. I dont know the ins and outs of Kierons job but I suspect like me he will also have responsibilty for a lot of other projects tied in with the community, organising branded goods, dealing with marketing for the community, organising social events, planning and implementing forum policies and software upgrades. and a lot more, very little of my time is actually spent trawling forums for content of interest, mostly it is just scanning for forum rule breaches and/or any user generated comments that could lead to the company being sued .
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:56:00 - [49] Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/12/2007 17:56:48 #1. Absolutely NO trial accounts on public forums period. (With perhaps the exception of a 'trial accounts only' channel) #2. Strictly enforce being constructive and relating to OP and not... well, you know . I've seen where ppl have been given a warning of being warned. ?? First a warning, then a temp ban on posting, go from there. ...that should about do it. You would have a hump to get over, but after that it would likely be SIGNIFICANTLY better. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Draconyx	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:02:00 - [50] I have to agree that more Moderation is needed HOWEVER The moderation should be strictly regulated in forums that have a specific purpose. Anything off topic or not helpful will be removed period. This also means moving topics to there right places. I am noting some stickies above and to be honest they do not belong in the general forums. A sticky saying go here for this issue there for that with a link fine but nothing more. There should be 2 general forums. One for new discussions that do not fit in any other location . This one will be regulated for content. AND Second a free for all so to speak where people can complain / banter whatever. Very low levels of moderation just enough to keep it from turning into a total sewer. But in general a place to vent frustrations.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:05:00 - [51] Originally by: CCP kieron As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. That one line is so annoying. It is as close to a lie as you can get, without actually bending the truth to breaking point; and it is pretty insulting to the people who did moderate the forums. CCP caved in to a section of the "community" throwing accusation of bias at the moderation team. Instead of lending their support, CCP thought it easier to disband the entire thing and do it themselves .. but got rid of the majority of the mods before actually putting anything in place themselves. The forums turned to crap (moreso than usual), and those who were being the disruptive influence were basically rewarded for their smear campaign. I really do hope you guys can turn this around kieron and get these forums back on track. In the interests of openess and honesty which you are clearly promoting here, how about you tell us about the upcomming changes to the forum rules (re: warnings) and moderation guidelines? (Or are we suddenly not going to be talking about moderation in this thread?) Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:11:00 - [52] Whether people have "valid" opinions or not...there are two ways to present them. One way, will get you noticed, you can present them in a coherent intelligent manner. In which you explain the issue, give possible solutions, and understand that things happen. The other way gets you noticed too, but only because you say something, call people names, blame everyone without understanding the issue, and in general, act like a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum. Do people really think that is going to get responses? Or even get people to listen? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:41:00 - [53] Originally by: ISD Valorem Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: Gungankllr Kieron = Community Manager, in charge of Player Relations and main forum ho Wrangler = Assistant Community Manager, assistant to Kieron Not sure what else you're expecting? Them to do their jobs better? Or perhaps more deputies? Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? Maybe if there was an official wiki.....a single ultimate source of information you'd get a lot less repetition. The game has some of the worst documentation/player learning I've ever seen. Just throw up an official wiki, put some horsepower behind the hardware and let the thousands of know-it-all players (like me, admittedly) populate it for you. All the information is currently contained within fansites that contradict each other, have out of date information etc. I'll even create and update a FOTM section for you to warn people away from those things. So, how 'bout it? -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:45:00 - [54] Originally by: CCP kieron There is some good feedback in this thread, some decent points made and some that are just way out there. As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. Our intention is to bring moderation in-house and change the forum rules a bit, something I hope will transpire before the end of the month. Changing the rules, you say? If you touch my OOPE then I'm booking flights straight out there to Iceland, so help me, and then you'll be sorry! ------ Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:54:00 - [55] Originally by: Patch86 If you touch my OOPE then I'm booking flights straight out there to Iceland, so help me, and then you'll be sorry! Boy will you be in for a surprise then. :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Yohanes Flame Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 21:35:00 - [56] Edited by: Yohanes Flame on 13/12/2007 21:40:48 The issue is not their failure to reply about up coming changes but that they do not reply at all after a large change is made to game play. When thousands of people come to forums after a huge change in "balancing" is made no reasoning is give or even a "yeah it sucks but we had to". Edit: ** can anyone find a mention of the huge sensor damp nerf in the patch notes am i just blind?
Venko Trenulo Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2007.12.13 21:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Yohanes Flame Edit: ** can anyone find a mention of the huge sensor damp nerf in the patch notes am i just blind? "Reduced in effectiveness" is mentioned in the section on ARM Scripts.
Skaz Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.14 00:32:00 - [58] Edited by: Skaz on 14/12/2007 00:36:32 Originally by: Yohanes Flame Edited by: Yohanes Flame on 13/12/2007 21:40:48 The issue is not their failure to reply about up coming changes but that they do not reply at all after a large change is made to game play. When thousands of people come to forums after a huge change in "balancing" is made no reasoning is give or even a "yeah it sucks but we had to". Edit: ** can anyone find a mention of the huge sensor damp nerf in the patch notes am i just blind? Well their failure to respond might be largely related to their attempts to fix the new bugs that cropped up following Trinity (boot.ini anyone?) and well there is also another possible reason that the Devs look upon Kieron and Wrangler as their "PR" and have internal rules concerning posting on the forum (which might also explain why a lot of the usual suspects have ceased posting). And the third reason is most likely like Winterblink stated, the infancy of EVE is over, we won't be seeing devs on the forums acting silly and simply "being one of the gang" because they risk being beset by questions and harassment. As to the sensor damp nerf, only mention of the sensor damps is in the Section on ARM scripts. - - PINK PINK PINK PINK
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.14 01:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Winterblink stuff As has been pointed out previously, This. Originally by: Draconyx Second a free for all so to speak where people can complain / banter whatever. Very low levels of moderation just enough to keep it from turning into a total sewer. But in general a place to vent frustrations. I like this idea. Which actually probably means its a bad idea . As much as I love forum warfare, I think that the best plan is keep increasing the moderation levels until it no longer exists. But if they nerf forum warriors and leave idiotic whiners untouched I'll quit. lie - DesuSigs
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.14 01:17:00 - [60] Originally by: Draconyx Second a free for all so to speak where people can complain / banter whatever. Very low levels of moderation just enough to keep it from turning into a total sewer. But in general a place to vent frustrations. this idea reminds me of the asylum at allakhazam. that place was utter madness. it wasn't until i went out and had a few drinks with some folks on there that i stopped taking forum posts personally. ah, the memories. The official goon buzz-kill.
Stefx Gallente Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2007.12.14 02:05:00 - [61] I have played many computer games in my life (although not many MMOs I must say) and Eve/CCP is by far the game where I have experienced the most "contact" with the developper company behind it. Before Eve/CCP, the most I had was patches and official statements on web pages. Never before have I seen a company's staff get this much involved in the community forums, etc. ----------- MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.14 02:56:00 - [62] Originally by: Whitney Novak Edited by: Whitney Novak on 13/12/2007 17:59:51 My job in real life is a "community manager" as such I am responsible to a large publishing house for their user generated content. This is a new role for the company I work for, and the first hurdle to overcome was to get the message through that forums are not an avenue for the companies customers to talk directly to the company. E-mail and phones exist for that. They exist to promote discussion amongst the website users, any input directly from the company is a bonus, and should not be expected as a right. The company may use the forums to gauge responses to various issues, having a readily available pool of interested people is one of the reasons for having forums. But that doesnt mean that the company has to act upon or deliver whatever the community demands. One of the roles of a community mananger is to notice issues on the forums that may be of interest to the company and to bring them to the attention of the relevant person, It is not a role to ensure those issues are replied too. I dont know the ins and outs of Kierons job but I suspect like me he will also have responsibilty for a lot of other projects tied in with the community, organising branded goods, dealing with marketing for the community, organising social events, planning and implementing forum policies and software upgrades. and a lot more, very little of my time is actually spent trawling forums for content of interest, mostly it is just scanning for forum rule breaches and/or any user generated comments that could lead to the company being sued . This. Dev. involvement is a good thing on occassion but this is a separate issue from forum moderation. Good Dev involvement that springs to mind is the thread where the guy said CCP had wronged his friend and took his isk. The Dev investigated and it turned out the guy had bought the isk and lied to his friend who started the thread. The Dev responce led to the death of a series of tiresome threads. For the majority of threads Dev involvement really isn't required. On the forum moderation issue there are some threads that have been left without a clicky a little bit too long but that is really a staffing issue. I don't mind a bit of trolling here or there for sport but some sections of the forum need to be troll free (especially the Game Development Forum). Originally by: Karlemgne (talking about me) You are a liar. Your whole corp and alliance is filled with liars. Stop ranting. Your nerd rage is showing.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.14 03:25:00 - [63] I support strict moderation since I've seen time after time what happens to boards that don't moderate with a spiked club. They get filled up with crap and the useful posters leave for more sane pastures. Eve O's been going that way for a while, so if CCP wants their forum to be useful and a good place to hang out and have some interesting discussions, the ever growing population of trolls, idiots and shills need to be treated like the unhelpful, selfish buffoons they are. Communities only work so long as the members give a rat's ass about their commons. Threats of certain punishment is one effective way to ensure they do. Friendly gibes and constructive criticism are great for a community, outright kicking other people in the nards merely for your own amusement is not. As well, it's easy to be quite rude to someone while obeying even highly restrictive forums, if that poster really deserves a good thrashing. Save EveTV, please. Sign to ask CCP to fund EveTV!
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.14 04:08:00 - [64] Originally by: Mr Friendly I support strict moderation since I've seen time after time what happens to boards that don't moderate with a spiked club. They get filled up with crap and the useful posters leave for more sane pastures. i agree.. but without standards and consistency, it's rather moot. one forum moderator might delete a post because it made them hurt inside while another would let it go. i'm not saying publicize their standards for moderation, but at least have some and stick to them. when there is no consistency in the moderation it just appears to be preferential treatment and people letting their emotions get involved with their job.. whether that is actually the case or not. The official goon buzz-kill.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.12.14 04:19:00 - [65] Originally by: CCP kieron There is some good feedback in this thread, some decent points made and some that are just way out there. As one of the posters pointed out, the volunteer forum moderation team has been declining due to some changes and the size of the community. Our intention is to bring moderation in-house and change the forum rules a bit, something I hope will transpire before the end of the month. Could we get some advance notice of the impending ruleset? Not that we're not all good boys and girls, but it would be good reference material. Also, full in-house moderation? Good thing. Oh, and any chance that with the increased attention to the forums, there might be a software overhaul in the works?
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.14 05:05:00 - [66] Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 13/12/2007 17:56:48 #1. Absolutely NO trial accounts on public forums period. (With perhaps the exception of a 'trial accounts only' channel) #2. Strictly enforce being constructive and relating to OP and not... well, you know . I've seen where ppl have been given a warning of being warned. ?? First a warning, then a temp ban on posting, go from there. ...that should about do it. You would have a hump to get over, but after that it would likely be SIGNIFICANTLY better. or you know look at the rules from some of the biggest forum community around and base it upon those with infraction points and read only status (probation) those kinds of things where this is a slap in your face for being stupid dont do it again kinda thing. Banning for a game like this is a bad idea since they realase so many things to forums only but permanation read only/specifc forums ie the customer service ones etc.. There are tons of ways this can be done there are only a few ways to run it right and make the forums worthwhile rather then a waste of time.
Hoban Gallifrey New Eden University	Posted - 2007.12.14 05:22:00 - [67] So we are all agreed that we wouldn't mind, and in fact think CCP should get strict on forums?
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.14 05:58:00 - [68] CCP is too fat and bloated to let its employees start sharing their opinions so openly. This might have been a good idea when they were under 50 people, but all you'd realize now is that internal disagreement and opinions are probably as diverse as these forums get. You don't need players dividing themselves up into "this dev sucks, I like this dev, this dev should be promoted, this dev should be fired". I would much rather have more microblogs, where devs talk about what they're working on and how in short and to the point manner, intermixed with very long articles that talk about the industry, hardware, core concept, vision, etc. Right now, most of the blogs sound like sales pitches, especially the ones from Oveur. And the dev chats are "we're looking into that", "that is something we will look into when we have time" with various bits of lighthearted comedy to better connect with 'the people'. Actually, it doesn't really matter how they do it, the missing key from CCP communication is listing the justification for changes in detail that can be accepted as logical. The theme is to make hard-to-digest changes at the same time as releasing some highly popular feature and hope nobody notices. It was amusing for a while, but now its just annoying.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.14 11:00:00 - [69] Originally by: ISD Valorem Do their jobs better? Do you mean they should be on call 24/7 to answer every query that gets thrown up on the forums by people who do not read patch notes or do not read known issues and workarounds or who simply do not attempt to find an answer before posting a question that has been asked 10 times and answered 10 times before? Or perhaps they should be there 24/7 to answer the "Why has my FOTM ship/module/loot drop been "nerfed""? How about scanner changes which were not in the patch notes? A simple 'it's a bug, we're fixing it soon(tm) would make people much happier'. Right now, everyone is speculating wether it's a bug or a feature. Rifters!
Cassius Yaoma Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:08:00 - [70] Originally by: Whitney Novak Edited by: Whitney Novak on 13/12/2007 17:59:51 My job in real life is a "community manager" as such I am responsible to a large publishing house for their user generated content. This is a new role for the company I work for, and the first hurdle to overcome was to get the message through that forums are not an avenue for the companies customers to talk directly to the company. E-mail and phones existfor that. They exist to promote discussion amongst the website users, any input directly from the company is a bonus, and should not be expected as a right. The company may use the forums to gauge responses to various issues, having a readily available pool of interested people is one of the reasons for having forums. But that doesnt mean that the company has to act upon or deliver whatever the community demands. One of the roles of a community mananger is to notice issues on the forums that may be of interest to the company and to bring them to the attention of the relevant person, It is not a role to ensure those issues are replied too. I dont know the ins and outs of Kierons job but I suspect like me he will also have responsibilty for a lot of other projects tied in with the community, organising branded goods, dealing with marketing for the community, organising social events, planning and implementing forum policies and software upgrades. and a lot more, very little of my time is actually spent trawling forums for content of interest, mostly it is just scanning for forum rule breaches and/or any user generated comments that could lead to the company being sued . This...made me laugh. Why? Because there are no phones nor e-mail for this purpose. And it specifically states that on their contact page. The e-mail is not truely an e-mail system, it just opens up a petition. Normally, it upsets me when people post complaints about CCP, and I've defended CCP in the past on threads like those. I thought the people who complained were just impatient morons that had nothing better to do. That was, until I experienced for myself the cluster**** that is the petition system. I've never put in a petition for a lost ship, nor for the server being down, though I have put in one or two for being stuck in between systems. And for both of the "stuck" petitions, I've been answered within 2 minutes. Now I've had a billing petition in (because you can't talk to them over the phone, nor e-mail, nor live chat) for....85 hours now. And I haven't had a response. That said, the forums are for the community. Not a communication device between CCP and clients.
Kastar Memphis Technologies Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:12:00 - [71] Originally by: Hoban Gallifrey Originally by: EliteSlave /me looks at Wrangler...and Kieron..and then looks back at the idiocy of the forums.. Well they aren't doing their jobs right because... who? Perhaps thay have too much on their plate? Who says they're not doing their jobs right ???? IMO they've always done a mighty good one. Did you ever consider that the attitude of some players might be the root cause ? -----------------------------------------------
Cassius Yaoma Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:19:00 - [72] Originally by: Kastar Who says they're not doing their jobs right ???? IMO they've always done a mighty good one. Did you ever consider that the attitude of some players might be the root cause ? Yes, I always have thought they are doing a good job. However, CCP is a business first, part of the community second. If it was truely because of the attitude of the players (which I'm not denying) then their own attitude is bad, bordering on vendictive. Which is no way to run a business. I worked in the CS industry for years, and the amount of abuse I had to take from **head, ritious, *** customers...well, i don't like to think about it. But you can't allow yourself to give into them by having the same attitude. In fact, it's much more fun when you are super nice to them and watch them become even more **ed off and ritious.
Kastar Memphis Technologies Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Cassius Yaoma Originally by: Kastar Who says they're not doing their jobs right ???? IMO they've always done a mighty good one. Did you ever consider that the attitude of some players might be the root cause ? Yes, I always have thought they are doing a good job. However, CCP is a business first, part of the community second. If it was truely because of the attitude of the players (which I'm not denying) then their own attitude is bad, bordering on vendictive. Which is no way to run a business. I worked in the CS industry for years, and the amount of abuse I had to take from **head, ritious, *** customers...well, i don't like to think about it. But you can't allow yourself to give into them by having the same attitude. In fact, it's much more fun when you are super nice to them and watch them become even more **ed off and ritious. Excellent point that last... If you ask some people what they think about sth, 95% will start summing up what they don't like. The other 5% will take the opportunity to come up with improvements. The really sad part is that my numbers are more or less correct. Yes I have a bad habit of stating what should best be left unsaid, but many people are simply not bright enough to add something else to a community than manual labour and should keep their mouth shut. My only wish for 2008 is an extremely aggressive CCP forum policy that locks, deletes and bans everything and everyone that doesn't add sth constructive or that offends someone. I remember a really decent thread by Rells of Agony in which a muppet posted at someone that "he hoped he'd die in a fire", nothing else. This kind of stuff needs to go. If these fora or fora in general show what people tend to do with internet anonimity I'm putting a lock on it for my kids when they grow older. It's not exactly improving... -----------------------------------------------

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