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Thebriwan LUX Uls Xystus	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:03:00 - [1] Hello! Has anybody tried a golem in a mission against defender spamming bs? I'm just wondering how those little bas*** tend to lower the dps in reality. Thebriwan
Kailiani Requiem Security Services	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:02:00 - [2] I hear its chance based per missile so their would be less defenders fired from npcs.
Thebriwan LUX Uls Xystus	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:59:00 - [3] Chance based would be fine - but still 4 launchers against the 7 of my cnr. I am still not completely convinced. But it seems to me that I have to try it out by myself.
Imaos	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:43:00 - [4] Originally by: Thebriwan Chance based would be fine - but still 4 launchers against the 7 of my cnr. I am still not completely convinced. But it seems to me that I have to try it out by myself. Let's say it is about 25% chance for the enemy to fire a defender when you launch a missile: You loose every 4th missile average. CNR fires 4 volleys (28 missiles) 7 never reaches their target. Golem fires 4 volleys (16 missiles) 4 (double damage) die on the way. In average you loose every 4th volley to defenders on each ship (@25%) or every third if it is really 33% like some claim. So compare the ships as if there were no defenders in PVE as the damage reduction is the same. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:08:00 - [5] Use the Golem. It's handsdown THE best lvl 4 mission runner (and no, I haven't gotten a BPO or am selling them by the dozen) 40km tractorbeam, 2x salvage and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Resists are off the charts versus Guristas. Never been so comfortable doing lvl 4s... and I've used Raven, Drake, Nighthawk, Rattlesnake, and Raven Navy Issue. Also, I didn't run into any fitting issues, everything fits perfectly. - NoNamium (Golem4tw)
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:22:00 - [6] Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Raw DPS vs practical DPS in missions, 50% explosion bonus will add significantly to the Golem's ability to drop smaller targets faster, which is what you will be facing the majority of. Practically, its the best missile boat for PVE now, CNR is a close second.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this: 100 / 125 = 0.8 So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:38:00 - [9] Originally by: NoNamium Use the Golem. It's handsdown THE best lvl 4 mission runner (and no, I haven't gotten a BPO or am selling them by the dozen) Unfortunately it is not true. You can already tank level 4 missions in CNR with regular T2 tank and are doing 16% more damage (16% faster missions) and using 44% more ammo with CNR. Golem does 2 things better than CNR. Tanking and Looting. Neither of them makes your mission running faster. If you want to use that tractor beam bonus you are better off getting golem just for looting tho and fitting it for the job (like 2x salvage rigs and stuff). Note that I have not tested Golem yet in missions myself but my short rant is based on previous mission running experience in Ravens and in CNR. After my currently building Golem get's ready I just might give it try to see how mutch slower it actually is but anyone just telling you that golem is better for missions is lying. Well at least as long as he does not provide us with numbers to support his claims.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Raw DPS vs practical DPS in missions, 50% explosion bonus will add significantly to the Golem's ability to drop smaller targets faster, which is what you will be facing the majority of. Practically, its the best missile boat for PVE now, CNR is a close second. I agree that on paper dps does not equal to actual dps in mission. However, if you are shooting only small targets then there is some other even more effective solutions for that like Nighthawk. In Battleship class small targets are usually killed with drones (frigates) or in case of cruisers (if there is enough of them to actually shoot at them and there usually is) you can one volley them in CNR also (target painter, 5% hardwires, good skills) just with 25% better RoF.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this: 100 / 125 = 0.8 So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking. Incorrect. To convert RoF to dps you divide by number less than one. Like 6/0.75 = 8 or 7/0.75 = 9.33 giving you correct 25% better RoF = 33 % dps bonus.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:48:00 - [12] Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:52:51 nvm, carniflex already explained. @hectaire glaim: that explosion velocity bonus doesn't play any role in lvl4s missions, since the explosion velocity of cruise missiles is already higher than the velocity of ships in lvl4s. This bonus has nothing to do with the size of the target but with it's velocty.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25 Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this: 100 / 125 = 0.8 So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking. Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same. You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles.
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:07:00 - [14] Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25 Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this: 100 / 125 = 0.8 So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking. Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same. You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles. aaaah yes ok if you gain 25% less time between each missile you'd fire 5,33 missiles from an original 4 (in my example above). But that would just be a case of simply ridiculous descriptions of game mechanics and they should change it
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:12:00 - [15] Edited by: NoNamium on 17/12/2007 13:13:14 Rate of fire for my character: Tech 2 Cruise Launcher - Raven (2 ballistic control units): 7.56 6/7.56 = 0.793651 Tech 2 Cruise Launcher - Golem (2 ballistic control units): 10.07 4x2/10.07 = 0.794439 Difference in favor of golem: 0.010125 Only a bit more than 1% better, but that doesn't factor in small targets. Though I mostly use drones for the small targets. - NoNamium
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Raekone You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles. You have 6 missile tubes with RoF of ooh say 12 seconds + 25 % rof bonus (12-.25*12=9 sec) You have 4 missile tubes with Damage bonus of 100%. Lets say they do 100 damage per shot base. and Shoot for say 60 seconds. 6 tubes, 9 sec rof, 100 dmg/shot = (6 tubes x) 6.667 salvos @ 100 dmg = 4000 dmg 4 tubes, 12 sec rof, 200 dmg/shot = (4 tubes x) 5.0 salvos @ 200 dmg = 4000 dmg
Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:27:00 - [17] dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions. im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder.
Mjoelner1 Draco Industries Ltd	Posted - 2007.12.17 13:43:00 - [18] Don't forget the Golems higher volley dmg, that combined with the painter bonus makes you able to 1 volley more targets. I have used it for a few days now and think it is really nice. The cnr stays parked
Fuazzole	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:30:00 - [19] Can the CNR mission run as fast as it does with 4x BCS and an AB
Raekone	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Raekone on 17/12/2007 14:38:53 May I ask how much you paid for your golems? That's gotta be a factor besides DPS, at least in the "real" world where people have a limited amount of isk and the "if you can afford this and that you can also afford those other things" thing doesn't work
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:41:00 - [21] CNR = Better dps (use against bs heavy missions) Golem = Better alpha (use against bc/cruiser heavy missions) Golem = Better tank (but i doubt that is needed for any lvl 4)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 15:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Jayne Tamm dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions. im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder. Looting and salvaging is like any other specialized activity - best done in specialized ship. Like using salvage rigs on your salvage ship. You can do it in other ways also (same as you can run some level 4's in AF), but there is also more effective way of doing it. Altho I guess for casual missionrunner Golem is perhaps better solution indeed in same price range than CNR as it leaves more margin for errors (better tanking ability) than dps optimized CNR setups for more gank and less tank to run them as fast as possible, and casual runners usually don't care a lot about their mission running speed anyway preferring more relaxsed gameplay to better isk/h. What gets me in rant mode is when I'm told 'Golem is better for missions than CNR running missions faster'. It can be true in case of competent Golem pilot vs incompetent CNR pilot, but is very very unlikely in case of two competent pilots with mission running tackiks suitable for their ships (meaning: using their firepower for maximum reasonable effect, like not doing unneccesary overkills against their targets and using all tools at their disposal, like drones for small targets). Golem is very good ship, just not the best for missions. And what d20 summarized, altho I have not tested golem in cruiser ritch missions myself yet.
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:14:00 - [23] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 17/12/2007 23:15:42 Edited by: Gul Rashen on 17/12/2007 23:14:32 I've tested the Golem for nearly a Week now. I fly it with a TP, 4 BCS, Perma/Omnitankfitting. Its a bit faster than my 4 BCS NH(against Sanshas more than a bit) and a bit slower than my 3 BCS CNR, but we talk here only about Minutes. Compared to the CNR its easier to fit. With the better Cap/Caprecharge i only have to use 1 Cap Recharger II and the Rigs to let my Booster run 23/7. Looting and salvaging with it was a Problem, cause many Wrecks were outside the 40km Range and the Cargo was to small for many Missions. But its still a good Ship, the same Tank as my NH with more Killspeed. With a TP onboard i don't have to use Drones and can watch TV beside.
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Jayne Tamm dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions. im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder. Looting and salvaging is like any other specialized activity - best done in specialized ship. Like using salvage rigs on your salvage ship. You can do it in other ways also (same as you can run some level 4's in AF), but there is also more effective way of doing it. Altho I guess for casual missionrunner Golem is perhaps better solution indeed in same price range than CNR as it leaves more margin for errors (better tanking ability) than dps optimized CNR setups for more gank and less tank to run them as fast as possible, and casual runners usually don't care a lot about their mission running speed anyway preferring more relaxsed gameplay to better isk/h. What gets me in rant mode is when I'm told 'Golem is better for missions than CNR running missions faster'. It can be true in case of competent Golem pilot vs incompetent CNR pilot, but is very very unlikely in case of two competent pilots with mission running tackiks suitable for their ships (meaning: using their firepower for maximum reasonable effect, like not doing unneccesary overkills against their targets and using all tools at their disposal, like drones for small targets). Golem is very good ship, just not the best for missions. And what d20 summarized, altho I have not tested golem in cruiser ritch missions myself yet. This is simply just incorrect. When you've tested the Golem, then get back to us with updated info. I've used CNR and Rattlesnake, and the amount of isk you can generate per hour (including LP) is wastly increased when tractoring and salvaging the 35km ships, DURING combat. Don't forget the huge cargohold the Golem has. I almost get it filled whenever I go on a mission, which means the mission-loot value just doubled. Probably more as you do not have to use as much ammo as a CNR. Which is another thing you save on during missions. Also your ship speed which is far better than the CNR helps getting from A to B during missions. You're tanked better because of the extra midslot. DPS hasn't been a concern at all for me in any mission with the Golem, and the belief generally in this thread that DPS is the primary factor for speeding through missions is simply put: "FALSE". Please, the CNR isn't even in the same league as the Golem. - NoNamium
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:02:00 - [25] Originally by: NoNamium This is simply just incorrect. When you've tested the Golem, then get back to us with updated info. I've used CNR and Rattlesnake, and the amount of isk you can generate per hour (including LP) is wastly increased when tractoring and salvaging the 35km ships, DURING combat. Don't forget the huge cargohold the Golem has. I almost get it filled whenever I go on a mission, which means the mission-loot value just doubled. Probably more as you do not have to use as much ammo as a CNR. Which is another thing you save on during missions. Also your ship speed which is far better than the CNR helps getting from A to B during missions. You're tanked better because of the extra midslot. DPS hasn't been a concern at all for me in any mission with the Golem, and the belief generally in this thread that DPS is the primary factor for speeding through missions is simply put: "FALSE". Please, the CNR isn't even in the same league as the Golem. - NoNamium Testing it will take me few more days but I will. Meanwhile I'm free to rant on 'on paper' stats I guess it depends on your mission running tackiks if for you Golem is better than CNR or not. I'm running them for maximum isk/h. That means doing one every 15 - 30 minutes and no looting. I do not loot at all usually (I do loot only 'gone berzek', 'right hand of zassamazz', 'damsel in distress' and that one rogue drone mission with approx 10 drone battleships in tight cluster around you). By on paper stats Golem would be approx 15 % slower than CNR in missions. In my mission running tackiks I dont have free locking slots to tractor loot (I have 10 lock slots on my CNR with auto targeter + signal amp II) as I'm busy locking new targets so my missile tubes would not sit idle. I don't waste a lot fire also as I'm usually activating enough missile launchers per target to just exactly kill it so I have target going down every few seconds usually in small ship heavy missions. I'm not really concerned about my tanking ability as regular T2 tank on CNR has been adequate for me. Granted I have good skills also in tanking section and I'm not aiming for sustainable tank but just to last long enough to do the mission without needing to warp out dedicating all slots I can spare for more damage (like target painter).
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25 Originally by: Raekone Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: NoNamium and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS). Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2. Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this: 100 / 125 = 0.8 So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking. Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same. You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles. No, you shoot 4 missiles every 45 seconds, which is a 33% dps boost. The easiest way to see your formula is wrong is to take an easy number like a 50% rof reduction. Its obvious that a 50% rof boost will double dps as you shoot twice as much, but your formula says it only gives a 33% increase.
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:34:00 - [27] Originally by: NoNamium Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Jayne Tamm dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions. im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder. Looting and salvaging is like any other specialized activity - best done in specialized ship. Like using salvage rigs on your salvage ship. You can do it in other ways also (same as you can run some level 4's in AF), but there is also more effective way of doing it. Altho I guess for casual missionrunner Golem is perhaps better solution indeed in same price range than CNR as it leaves more margin for errors (better tanking ability) than dps optimized CNR setups for more gank and less tank to run them as fast as possible, and casual runners usually don't care a lot about their mission running speed anyway preferring more relaxsed gameplay to better isk/h. What gets me in rant mode is when I'm told 'Golem is better for missions than CNR running missions faster'. It can be true in case of competent Golem pilot vs incompetent CNR pilot, but is very very unlikely in case of two competent pilots with mission running tackiks suitable for their ships (meaning: using their firepower for maximum reasonable effect, like not doing unneccesary overkills against their targets and using all tools at their disposal, like drones for small targets). Golem is very good ship, just not the best for missions. And what d20 summarized, altho I have not tested golem in cruiser ritch missions myself yet. This is simply just incorrect. When you've tested the Golem, then get back to us with updated info. I've used CNR and Rattlesnake, and the amount of isk you can generate per hour (including LP) is wastly increased when tractoring and salvaging the 35km ships, DURING combat. Don't forget the huge cargohold the Golem has. I almost get it filled whenever I go on a mission, which means the mission-loot value just doubled. Probably more as you do not have to use as much ammo as a CNR. Which is another thing you save on during missions. Also your ship speed which is far better than the CNR helps getting from A to B during missions. You're tanked better because of the extra midslot. DPS hasn't been a concern at all for me in any mission with the Golem, and the belief generally in this thread that DPS is the primary factor for speeding through missions is simply put: "FALSE". Please, the CNR isn't even in the same league as the Golem. - NoNamium You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:47:00 - [28] Originally by: sheis Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. You can get it both on CNR and Golem (CNR a bit more than in Golem as it has one more rig slot), altho at least on CNR it takes Navy CPU and officer RCU to pull it off with 3x BCU's and target painter and reasonable tank. However when I was testing it in reality torpedoes are faster only in approx half of the level 4 missions than cruise and if you figure in timesink of doing exsessive refitting for approx half of missions you will break more or less even against faction cruise missiles in navy launchers. There is approx 1 month old thread floating around somewhere with numerical test results from SiSi about ranges and number of volleys to kill different stuff with 3 missile speed rigs, 3x navy bcu, 5% missile speed hardwire and t2 launchers and javelin missiles + target painter.
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:54:00 - [29] Edited by: sheis on 18/12/2007 13:56:38 Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: sheis Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. You can get it both on CNR and Golem (CNR a bit more than in Golem as it has one more rig slot), altho at least on CNR it takes Navy CPU and officer RCU to pull it off with 3x BCU's and target painter and reasonable tank. However when I was testing it in reality torpedoes are faster only in approx half of the level 4 missions than cruise and if you figure in timesink of doing exsessive refitting for approx half of missions you will break more or less even against faction cruise missiles in navy launchers. There is approx 1 month old thread floating around somewhere with numerical test results from SiSi about ranges and number of volleys to kill different stuff with 3 missile speed rigs, 3x navy bcu, 5% missile speed hardwire and t2 launchers and javelin missiles + target painter. You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner.
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:57:00 - [30] Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions.

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