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sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:02:00 - [31] Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions. Except using faction ammo will NEGATE any isk made in a mission by salvaging/looting the BS's. Leaving you slower and broker than using a CNR. Only way a golem is going to make missions faster is to use it as a salvaging ship when you finish the mission in a CNR. Pretty expensive salvager but if you absolutely must have the ship might as let it do something it excels at.
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:06:00 - [32] Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions. Except using faction ammo will NEGATE any isk made in a mission by salvaging/looting the BS's. Leaving you slower and broker than using a CNR. Only way a golem is going to make missions faster is to use it as a salvaging ship when you finish the mission in a CNR. Pretty expensive salvager but if you absolutely must have the ship might as let it do something it excels at. I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats.
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions. Except using faction ammo will NEGATE any isk made in a mission by salvaging/looting the BS's. Leaving you slower and broker than using a CNR. Only way a golem is going to make missions faster is to use it as a salvaging ship when you finish the mission in a CNR. Pretty expensive salvager but if you absolutely must have the ship might as let it do something it excels at. I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats. Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Lisento and Miscellaneous Elk	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:11:00 - [34] Does the Golem tank better? Without faction gear? Too bad it costs about a billion by itself (I remember CNR's costing that much too though). Tank is more important but if you already have a raven/CNR fit to perm-tank a lvl 4 there isn't much point. And if you have the skills to fly a fricken Golem you probably already have a raven/faction raven that is tanking the silly things just fine. Then again I know someone who doesn't so it's a possibility still! --- Put in space whales!
Sir Cyco	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:13:00 - [35] Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. You seemed to have confused the two ships.Almost everything you said is backwards! 1)The Golem's DPS is equal or greater than the CNR. 2)The tank is important, because if you have to run away you arent killing anything. 3)The Golem clearly does have the high slots and cargo to salvage and loot while you kill,hence no need to BM and come back w/ a salvage ship.
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:22:00 - [36] Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats. Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont. Obvoiusly not if you take all the loot till you fill your cargo and leave everyting else, but the cargo bay is big enough for all the salvage and the most valuable loot. Leaving a few unnamed t1 mods behind won't cost much. The benefit of the Golem is either almost all the loot/salvage value of the mission or the time saved by not needing to go back with a specialist salvage ship after you kill everything, depending on whether or not you salvage your missions atm. Either way it more than makes up for the small dps loss imo.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Sir Cyco Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. You seemed to have confused the two ships.Almost everything you said is backwards! 1)The Golem's DPS is equal or greater than the CNR. 2)The tank is important, because if you have to run away you arent killing anything. 3)The Golem clearly does have the high slots and cargo to salvage and loot while you kill,hence no need to BM and come back w/ a salvage ship. I don't get it why people are that ignorant and continue to claim that Golem has an equal or greater DPS compared to the CNR, after it's so easy to calculate and has been proven like 100 times already. And the CNR dps is significant higher, 16% are a lot, not just a tiny cosmetic advantage. People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ? The better tank: if you can afford a cnr, you probably can afford a faction tank. It doesn't have to be the gist x-type xl sb, after the introduction of rigs it's actually very easy to create a tank that tanks any lvl4 with ease, since ccp decided to make lvl4s easy, so that the casual guy doesn't lose his t2 fitted raven too often. So the Golem's that tanking increase does not really matter.
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Sir Cyco Originally by: sheis You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4. Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion. 1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount. 2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission 3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't. Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion. And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******. You seemed to have confused the two ships.Almost everything you said is backwards! 1)The Golem's DPS is equal or greater than the CNR. 2)The tank is important, because if you have to run away you arent killing anything. 3)The Golem clearly does have the high slots and cargo to salvage and loot while you kill,hence no need to BM and come back w/ a salvage ship. 1) no it doesnt hahah 2) CNR has the ability to perm tank any level 4 already making additional tank pointless 3)Wrong it doesn't have enough high slots to salvage fast enough to keep up with the rate at which you will kill stuff. It also doesn't have the cargo capacity to to hold a level 4. Some level 4's will now provide 5-7m3 in loot if not more. 4)You are awful at this and shouldnt respond again.
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats. Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont. Obvoiusly not if you take all the loot till you fill your cargo and leave everyting else, but the cargo bay is big enough for all the salvage and the most valuable loot. Leaving a few unnamed t1 mods behind won't cost much. The benefit of the Golem is either almost all the loot/salvage value of the mission or the time saved by not needing to go back with a specialist salvage ship after you kill everything, depending on whether or not you salvage your missions atm. Either way it more than makes up for the small dps loss imo. It doesnt and its not a matter of opinion its a matter of math. and its not a "slight" amount of different its like 10-15% difference.
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:09:00 - [40] Edited by: Giant Haystacks on 18/12/2007 15:09:41 Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: sheis Originally by: Giant Haystacks I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats. Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont. Obvoiusly not if you take all the loot till you fill your cargo and leave everyting else, but the cargo bay is big enough for all the salvage and the most valuable loot. Leaving a few unnamed t1 mods behind won't cost much. The benefit of the Golem is either almost all the loot/salvage value of the mission or the time saved by not needing to go back with a specialist salvage ship after you kill everything, depending on whether or not you salvage your missions atm. Either way it more than makes up for the small dps loss imo. It doesnt and its not a matter of opinion its a matter of math. and its not a "slight" amount of different its like 10-15% difference. Its 16% which as I said is almost all made up by being able to switch to faction missiles due to the halving your ammo cost, leaving a slight difference. edit - spelling
Captain Schmungles Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:13:00 - [41] To the OP: Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically. That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way: If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three. You can also think of it this way: If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out. Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven. Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Captain Schmungles To the OP: Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically. That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way: If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three. You can also think of it this way: If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out. Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven. Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk First the number of defenders launched depends on the number of missiles you fire, so you lose the same percentage of dps to defenders in a Golem as in a CNR, second npc jamming chances are a fixed percentage and not affected by sensor strength.
Dracoform Draco Industries Ltd	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:28:00 - [43] Both NPC defenders and NPC jamming are completly chance based, as stated many times before. This means you will not get jammed more frequently in a Golem then a CNR, and you will not loose more % of your dmg to defenders then with a CNR. After some days of testing the Golem in lvl 4's I think the time to complete missions are about the same in the 2 ships.... Missions with many cruisers and frigs favors the Golem, and BS heavy missions favors the CNR. This is due to the fact of the Golems higher alpha (esp wen using faction missiles) that lets you one volley most of the cruisers and all BC. //Drac
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:39:00 - [44] Originally by: sheis You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner. 1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it. 2) I did test that setup with new torpedoes and decided that while they are murdeously effective in 'sphere of death' of up to approx 60 km I'm not that hell bent on every % of effectivity to go for them as I'm too lazy to refit for those missions where 60 km is not quite cutting it, approx half of level 4 missions. 3) I'm using faction ammo every day to run missions and no, my LP is not 'free'. It is actually worth doing for me. I'm also using CNR with 4x faction BCU's and headful of 5% hardwires to make me more effective. This is also actually cost effective for me as I do care about payback time and not just pimping my ride for the pimp factor. 4) I might be considered pro missionrunner as thats my main source of income to fund my 'fun' activities. T2/Faction ammo is what pros use. As far as 'golem does more damage than CNR' crowd goes I would be very interested on math behind that claim. Who knows perhaps I'm the one mistaken so enlighten me.
Deviant Pixelus	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:27:00 - [45] a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence. b. Its how good you understand missions c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with. d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first That decide how fast you finish a mission. you have choice a and b you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it. dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in. If you already have a cnr, stick with it. If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that. cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting, golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr. its PERSONAL CHOICE 1st choice = CNR 2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:12:00 - [46] Originally by: Deviant Pixelus a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence. b. Its how good you understand missions c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with. d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first That decide how fast you finish a mission. you have choice a and b you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it. dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in. If you already have a cnr, stick with it. If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that. cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting, golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr. its PERSONAL CHOICE 1st choice = CNR 2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem As I said before, I've tried flying every missionship you can think of. The Golem is by far the best, but I'm done trying to convince people in love with the CNR. If you want to get less isk per hour, by all means be my guest.
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:31:00 - [47] Originally by: NoNamium Originally by: Deviant Pixelus a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence. b. Its how good you understand missions c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with. d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first That decide how fast you finish a mission. you have choice a and b you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it. dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in. If you already have a cnr, stick with it. If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that. cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting, golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr. its PERSONAL CHOICE 1st choice = CNR 2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem As I said before, I've tried flying every missionship you can think of. The Golem is by far the best, but I'm done trying to convince people in love with the CNR. If you want to get less isk per hour, by all means be my guest. it does look like an interesting ship to fly for missions but it is a very expensive test to try. I usually flew a raven only because they are expendable and you can fit one up for about 200 mill which isn't a large amount of money and you can earn that back easily within a day if you do lose one.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Lisento and Miscellaneous Elk	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:06:00 - [48] What if you're doing missions against NPC's that don't use defenders... Or do all NPC's use defenders and I just never noticed it? --- Put in space whales!
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:48:00 - [49] Edited by: sheis on 18/12/2007 19:48:47 Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: sheis You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner. 1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it. 2) I did test that setup with new torpedoes and decided that while they are murdeously effective in 'sphere of death' of up to approx 60 km I'm not that hell bent on every % of effectivity to go for them as I'm too lazy to refit for those missions where 60 km is not quite cutting it, approx half of level 4 missions. 3) I'm using faction ammo every day to run missions and no, my LP is not 'free'. It is actually worth doing for me. I'm also using CNR with 4x faction BCU's and headful of 5% hardwires to make me more effective. This is also actually cost effective for me as I do care about payback time and not just pimping my ride for the pimp factor. 4) I might be considered pro missionrunner as thats my main source of income to fund my 'fun' activities. T2/Faction ammo is what pros use. As far as 'golem does more damage than CNR' crowd goes I would be very interested on math behind that claim. Who knows perhaps I'm the one mistaken so enlighten me. 1.Show me a t2 torp setup with a raven with 3 velocity rigs that can tank lets say 900 dps. We will forget about AE bonus stage which is 1600 dps and AE 5/5 which is probably even more. I know you cant so its not even worth trying. And did you really just say "cap injector" in the same paragraph talking about your mission fittings? 2.Uhhh huh? Torps with 1 target painter and a 60km range will do 33% more dps than the OLD torps did. And old torps outshined cruise in almost every single mission barring like 1-2 so im going to have to call bull**** on that. Also 60km with torps isnt even possible even using javelins (which would be pointless instead of just normal cruise) 3.So in your previous point you say you dont care about min/maxing. But then claim to use faction ammo and "headful of 5%" so you can efficiently run missions? Sorry your previous mentions of setups pretty much establishes you have no concept of efficient isk/hr ratio with a ship. Faction ammo to run missions is just moronic if you understood what a "volley" is. Unless are half volleying ships with the dps increase of faction its just plain silly. 4. No you just run missions without really any idea how to do it effectively. Faction ammo and cap injectors ffs
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:51:00 - [50] Originally by: NoNamium Originally by: Deviant Pixelus a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence. b. Its how good you understand missions c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with. d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first That decide how fast you finish a mission. you have choice a and b you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it. dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in. If you already have a cnr, stick with it. If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that. cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting, golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr. its PERSONAL CHOICE 1st choice = CNR 2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem As I said before, I've tried flying every missionship you can think of. The Golem is by far the best, but I'm done trying to convince people in love with the CNR. If you want to get less isk per hour, by all means be my guest. Except you cant substantiate WHY its a better ship. It does 16% LESS damage. It doesnt have enough high slots or cargo to salvage loot missions. How exactly CAN IT BE BETTER THAN A CNR?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 22:03:00 - [51] Originally by: sheis 1.Show me a t2 torp setup with a CNR with 3 velocity rigs that can sustain a tank of 900dps. We will also totally forget about the probably dozen or so missions in that do more than 900dps. I know you cant so its not even worth trying. And did you really just say "cap injector" in the same paragraph talking about your mission fittings?[:roll: 2.Uhhh huh? Torps with 1 target painter and a 60km range will do 33% more dps than the OLD torps did. And old torps outshined cruise in almost every single mission barring like 1-2 so im going to have to call bull**** on that. Also 60km with torps isnt even possible even using javelins (which would be pointless instead of just normal cruise) 3.So in your previous point you say you dont care about min/maxing. But then claim to use faction ammo and "headful of 5%" so you can efficiently run missions? Sorry your previous mentions of setups pretty much establishes you have no concept of efficient isk/hr ratio with a ship. Faction ammo to run missions is just moronic if you understood what a "volley" is. Unless are half volleying ships with the dps increase of faction its just plain silly. 4. No you just run missions without really any idea how to do it effectively. Faction ammo and cap injectors ffs 1) Name those missions doing more than 900 dps. I can name 2 to get you started what can do it if you do something wrong, namely enemies abound 1 of 5 and worlds collide second stage. I'm really hard pressed to find more from the top of my head. Overall something in the ballpark of 600 dps tank is enough to get thru them without needing ot warp out. At least it has been adequate for me over the past year and some of doing level 4 missions. Setup I used for the test is: Hi: 7x Siege launcher II 1x Auto Targeting System I Med: CN XL booster, 3x rat specific T2 hardeners, 1x PWNAGE painter 1x Heavy Electrochem Cap injector I (x800) Low: 3x CN BCU 1x Shadow serpentis CPU 1x Selyenne Modifed RCU Rigs: 3x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I + T2 drones (5x med, 5x light) I got around 55 km range with javelins with 4/4 in range support skills and BS 5. It should reach a bit above 60 (theoretical is ~70, but in the test actual range was approx 90% of theoretical). Yep. Using cap injector. Don't need to last forever in missions, just long enough to get them done without needing to warp out. Works for me just fine. Gistii stuff is just not quite cost effective approach for me. 2. Javelins do a bit less. But yeah they do more than faction cruise. A lot more. Approx 20 % or so. I did use (faction)torps in missions until they got their range reduced - that was one of the main reasons of testing them in SiSi before patch to see if I could pull it off and if it would be effective. As far as cost effectivness goes. I did my math when I started using it. 15% more damage allowed me 'break even' with isk/h (after ammo cost) against regular T1 ammo, it was before faction ammo market crashed. If it's worth for someone depends on a lot of factors, most important of them mission running speed he starts from. 3. I do care about isk/h and 'min/max' there is just certain amount of trouble I'm willing to go for best results. For me refitting with cruise for those missions where torpedoes lack range to be effective is too mutch hassle. If I could be arsed to do that and would be reasonably fast doing it it would be actually worth it (not to mention T2 ammo is cheaper than faction ammo). It's up to personal preference. In those missions where targets are in range torps would be murdeously effective with their new RoF. I do understand also what 'volley' is and how to distribute my firepower for maximum effect and still not let NPC get in enough rep cykles to negate advantage of faction ammo over T1/T2. 4. Regardless of your disbelief faction ammo and cap injectors actually do work, and work reasonably good for level 4 missions. Isk/h wise good.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.12.18 22:19:00 - [52] Personally I'd take an Abaddon and Paladin over any of those ships for Blood and Sansha missions. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Rasta Farian Rasta Tropical Club	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:31:00 - [53] It¦s obvious that Golem is better then the CNR. What do i care for more or less 16% damage when i can do the mission with less clicking.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:45:00 - [54] Quote: Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission Just a thought: couldn't the extra tank let you use fewer tank modules/rigs and more gank modules/rigs?
Hans Angry Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.19 04:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Hans Angry on 19/12/2007 04:11:32 Edited by: Hans Angry on 19/12/2007 04:09:25 this is the true best setup... no other ship will compare, where as with the t1 ***ven, the domi and typhoon out did it... also this setup can use torps and get over 40km range, which is why its teh pwn... my level 4 rats never get over 40km from me... http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=golemev3.jpg ^^EFT Setup, i cant fly caldari, but thats what i would use, i did used to fly the raven for my level 4's Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:50:00 - [56] Looting & salvaging while doing a mission seems to be the only real advantage of the Golem. It sounds very nice, do 3 things at the same time, but it won't work. I recently did damsel in distress, looted a few of the pleasure hub sentinels and my spare cargohold (~500m3) was full. And no, i didn't take the cap boosters but even ejected some of the 100m3 modules, such as 1600mm plates etc. Many of the modules are now 50m3 or 100m3, means you'll have to leave a lot of loot in space, the Golem's cargo is not that much bigger, you'd not manage to loot damsel in distress for example. Also this won't work in missions with many stages, you finish a stage rather fast with killing the rats; targeting the cans, tractoring them to you, looting & salvaging takes longer than the killing, so you'll end up with a stage empty of rats where you stay only for looting/salvaging and therefore spend much more time. If someone loves to loot and salvage, it makes more sense to do that in a dedicated ship, works faster and he can get more stuff out of the ships. For that the golem might be an option, a ship dedicated to looting, after the mission is done. Highs completely filled with tractor beams/ salvagers, meds with a mwd or ab + sensorboosters with fast target scripts + cap rechargers, and a mix of cargo expanders + inertia/nanofiber mods in the lows.
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.19 08:08:00 - [57] Ok, here's my setup and how I use the golem, take it or leave it: high: Cruise Launcher II x 4, 2x salvager, 1x small tractor beam medium: Gist C-type X-Large Shield Booster (running indefinately), Dread Guristas Shield boost amplifier, 4x tech 2 hardners specific to the mission, 1x tech 2 invulnerability field low: 2x tech 2 Ballistic Control Unit, 2x tech 2 power diagnostic unit Rigs: 2x 15% cap reduction recharge time Drones: 3x Wasp II If somebody has a more efficient setup, please let me know. Ok, so now for the missions and how I do them: Always lock the battleships first and start killing them first. After each one dies you lock their wreck, tractor it and use both salvaging modules. by the time the next battleship dies you should have looted and salvaged the first one... rinse, repeat. When all targets have you locked you launch your drones and send them after the first frigatte. This should clear out frigs pretty fast. You only have to watch out for activating another group. The missions where you have to travel to the next gate, you should be able to clear out the stage just before reaching the gate (remember the faster speed of the Golem). Also make sure you only spend time on looting and salvaging the battleships. This should bring in on average an additional profit of 7-12M per mission. Of course if you have time, then by all means salvage the cruisers and battlecruisers as well. The 1255m3 helps a lot here, and I've almost never filled up on loot. Also 1500 missiles is more than enough for any mission. If I think of additional info I'll edit this reply. - NoNamium
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.19 08:56:00 - [58] I managed to get time to do one mission in it (Rogue Drone harassment), Golem did statisfactory altho I was slightly dissapointed against small targets, but then again I have Maraduers level 1 only so that might be reason for that (not enough bonuses for target painter to give noticeable effect over CNR). Setup I used was Hi: 4x CN Cruise launcher 1x Auto Targeter I 1x Small Tractor Beam 1x Drone Link Augmentor I Med: T2 XL Booster, 3x T2 hardener, 1x T2 Heavy Cap Injector, 2x PWNAGE painter Low: 4x CN BCU Rigs: 2x Warhead Rigor Catalyst I + 5x Medium T2 / 5x Light T2 drones Pleasant surprise was hits of 1082 'base' damage hits on drone battleship hulls altho against big targets lower rof makes killing them slower than in CNR (not a lot but it's noticeable without going nuts with chronometer). Fittings are not hard and there is plenty of room to spare after fitting abovementioned gadgets. Unfortunately I don't have time today to run proper test. Perhaps tomorrow or day after I can get proper numerical results to compare CNR effectivity in level 4 missions against Golem effectivity. Overall impression of the ship is reasonably good. Compared to CNR it has already built in shield boost amp, auto targeter I and signal amp II (10 targets and shield boost bonus), altho it lacks faster locking speed part of signal amp II. I'm still sceptical tho if it can actually be faster than CNR in missions but we will see.
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.19 11:07:00 - [59] Originally by: NoNamium Ok, here's my setup and how I use the golem, take it or leave it: high: Cruise Launcher II x 4, 2x salvager, 1x small tractor beam medium: Gist C-type X-Large Shield Booster (running indefinately), Dread Guristas Shield boost amplifier, 4x tech 2 hardners specific to the mission, 1x tech 2 invulnerability field low: 2x tech 2 Ballistic Control Unit, 2x tech 2 power diagnostic unit Rigs: 2x 15% cap reduction recharge time Drones: 3x Wasp II If somebody has a more efficient setup, please let me know. Ok, so now for the missions and how I do them: Always lock the battleships first and start killing them first. After each one dies you lock their wreck, tractor it and use both salvaging modules. by the time the next battleship dies you should have looted and salvaged the first one... rinse, repeat. When all targets have you locked you launch your drones and send them after the first frigatte. This should clear out frigs pretty fast. You only have to watch out for activating another group. The missions where you have to travel to the next gate, you should be able to clear out the stage just before reaching the gate (remember the faster speed of the Golem). Also make sure you only spend time on looting and salvaging the battleships. This should bring in on average an additional profit of 7-12M per mission. Of course if you have time, then by all means salvage the cruisers and battlecruisers as well. The 1255m3 helps a lot here, and I've almost never filled up on loot. Also 1500 missiles is more than enough for any mission. If I think of additional info I'll edit this reply. - NoNamium Your tank is a lot stronger than needed. If you drop the boost amp and invul for cap chargers you can swap your rigs to salvage tackle and use 2 tractors/1 salvager.
Arakidias Murky Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:08:00 - [60] I thought the main selling point of the Golem (aside from the looting/salvaging aspect) was that with enough skills, hardwires and faction gear you could 1 volley every destroyer, cruiser and battlecruiser. And tank at the same time. Which would mean a huge boost to the "real" DPS. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

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