Originally by: Thebriwan

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Chance based would be fine - but still 4 launchers against the 7 of my cnr. I am still not completely convinced.
But it seems to me that I have to try it out by myself.

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

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Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

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Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Use the Golem. It's handsdown THE best lvl 4 mission runner (and no, I haven't gotten a BPO or am selling them by the dozen)

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Originally by: Hectaire Glade

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Raw DPS vs practical DPS in missions, 50% explosion bonus will add significantly to the Golem's ability to drop smaller targets faster, which is what you will be facing the majority of. Practically, its the best missile boat for PVE now, CNR is a close second.

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

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Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

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Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this:

100 / 125 = 0.8

So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers

And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25

Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

---

Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

---

Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this:

100 / 125 = 0.8

So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers

And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.

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Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same.

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25

Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

---

Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

---

Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this:

100 / 125 = 0.8

So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers

And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.

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Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same.

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You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles.

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Originally by: Raekone

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You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles.

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Originally by: Jayne Tamm

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dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions.

im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: Jayne Tamm

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dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions.

im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder.

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Looting and salvaging is like any other specialized activity - best done in specialized ship. Like using salvage rigs on your salvage ship. You can do it in other ways also (same as you can run some level 4's in AF), but there is also more effective way of doing it.

Altho I guess for casual missionrunner Golem is perhaps better solution indeed in same price range than CNR as it leaves more margin for errors (better tanking ability) than dps optimized CNR setups for more gank and less tank to run them as fast as possible, and casual runners usually don't care a lot about their mission running speed anyway preferring more relaxsed gameplay to better isk/h.

What gets me in rant mode is when I'm told 'Golem is better for missions than CNR running missions faster'. It can be true in case of competent Golem pilot vs incompetent CNR pilot, but is very very unlikely in case of two competent pilots with mission running tackiks suitable for their ships (meaning: using their firepower for maximum reasonable effect, like not doing unneccesary overkills against their targets and using all tools at their disposal, like drones for small targets).

Golem is very good ship, just not the best for missions. And what d20 summarized, altho I have not tested golem in cruiser ritch missions myself yet.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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This is simply just incorrect. When you've tested the Golem, then get back to us with updated info.
I've used CNR and Rattlesnake, and the amount of isk you can generate per hour (including LP) is wastly increased when tractoring and salvaging the 35km ships, DURING combat. Don't forget the huge cargohold the Golem has. I almost get it filled whenever I go on a mission, which means the mission-loot value just doubled. Probably more as you do not have to use as much ammo as a CNR. Which is another thing you save on during missions. Also your ship speed which is far better than the CNR helps getting from A to B during missions. You're tanked better because of the extra midslot.

DPS hasn't been a concern at all for me in any mission with the Golem, and the belief generally in this thread that DPS is the primary factor for speeding through missions is simply put: "FALSE".

Please, the CNR isn't even in the same league as the Golem.

- NoNamium

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 17/12/2007 12:49:25

Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

---

Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

---

Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this:

100 / 125 = 0.8

So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers

And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.

---

Sorry young padavan, but i'm afraid it's you who did the wrong maths. Why 100/125 ? If you train up caldari bs skill you gain 25% LESS rof, so its 75% of the original rof (and not 125%), which means it's 6 launchers x damge / 0.75. Besides it's without a question, like proven and calculated in many threads by many people that the dps from launchers is the same.

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You're all wrong. Look if you first shoot 4 missiles per minute right, and then up the ROF by 25% you shoot one extra missile per minute (5 total). 5 missiles is an increase in damage by 20% over 4 missiles.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: Jayne Tamm

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dps isnt really the issue when considering the golem for missions.

im assuming you're talkin about solo missions when i write this reply, but even if the golem does less dps than the cnr.....you are still gona complete + salvage/loot the mission a hell of a lot quicker in the marauder.

---

Looting and salvaging is like any other specialized activity - best done in specialized ship. Like using salvage rigs on your salvage ship. You can do it in other ways also (same as you can run some level 4's in AF), but there is also more effective way of doing it.

Altho I guess for casual missionrunner Golem is perhaps better solution indeed in same price range than CNR as it leaves more margin for errors (better tanking ability) than dps optimized CNR setups for more gank and less tank to run them as fast as possible, and casual runners usually don't care a lot about their mission running speed anyway preferring more relaxsed gameplay to better isk/h.

What gets me in rant mode is when I'm told 'Golem is better for missions than CNR running missions faster'. It can be true in case of competent Golem pilot vs incompetent CNR pilot, but is very very unlikely in case of two competent pilots with mission running tackiks suitable for their ships (meaning: using their firepower for maximum reasonable effect, like not doing unneccesary overkills against their targets and using all tools at their disposal, like drones for small targets).

Golem is very good ship, just not the best for missions. And what d20 summarized, altho I have not tested golem in cruiser ritch missions myself yet.

---

This is simply just incorrect. When you've tested the Golem, then get back to us with updated info.
I've used CNR and Rattlesnake, and the amount of isk you can generate per hour (including LP) is wastly increased when tractoring and salvaging the 35km ships, DURING combat. Don't forget the huge cargohold the Golem has. I almost get it filled whenever I go on a mission, which means the mission-loot value just doubled. Probably more as you do not have to use as much ammo as a CNR. Which is another thing you save on during missions. Also your ship speed which is far better than the CNR helps getting from A to B during missions. You're tanked better because of the extra midslot.

DPS hasn't been a concern at all for me in any mission with the Golem, and the belief generally in this thread that DPS is the primary factor for speeding through missions is simply put: "FALSE".

Please, the CNR isn't even in the same league as the Golem.

- NoNamium

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Originally by: sheis

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Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: sheis

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Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

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You can get it both on CNR and Golem (CNR a bit more than in Golem as it has one more rig slot), altho at least on CNR it takes Navy CPU and officer RCU to pull it off with 3x BCU's and target painter and reasonable tank. However when I was testing it in reality torpedoes are faster only in approx half of the level 4 missions than cruise and if you figure in timesink of doing exsessive refitting for approx half of missions you will break more or less even against faction cruise missiles in navy launchers.

There is approx 1 month old thread floating around somewhere with numerical test results from SiSi about ranges and number of volleys to kill different stuff with 3 missile speed rigs, 3x navy bcu, 5% missile speed hardwire and t2 launchers and javelin missiles + target painter.

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

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The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions.

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

---

The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions.

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Except using faction ammo will NEGATE any isk made in a mission by salvaging/looting the BS's. Leaving you slower and broker than using a CNR. Only way a golem is going to make missions faster is to use it as a salvaging ship when you finish the mission in a CNR. Pretty expensive salvager but if you absolutely must have the ship might as let it do something it excels at.

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

---

The dps can be almost entirely made up by switching to faction missiles if you don't use them on a CNR. I find them too expensive for a cnr but the golem effectivly halves the ammo cost making them far more attractive. Also by fitting 2 salvage rigs, 2 tractors and a salvager you can salvage at least the bs's and get the most valuable loot as you go which will be a nice income boost for everyone who doesn't use a dual logged alt to loot/salvage missions.

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Except using faction ammo will NEGATE any isk made in a mission by salvaging/looting the BS's. Leaving you slower and broker than using a CNR. Only way a golem is going to make missions faster is to use it as a salvaging ship when you finish the mission in a CNR. Pretty expensive salvager but if you absolutely must have the ship might as let it do something it excels at.

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I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats.

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats.

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Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont.

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

---

You seemed to have confused the two ships.Almost everything you said is backwards!
1)The Golem's DPS is equal or greater than the CNR.
2)The tank is important, because if you have to run away you arent killing anything.
3)The Golem clearly does have the high slots and cargo to salvage and loot while you kill,hence no need to BM and come back w/ a salvage ship.

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant be this stupid. A golem might be better for a "casual" mission runner since its easier to fit and to tank. But for a "professional" mission runner its INFERIOR! It does significantly LESS dps. It does not have the cargo and or highslots to salvage or loot level 4's in an efficient manner. And for a good mission runner a majority of level 4's arent even worth the time to salvage since it decreases the isk/hr rate than just blasting though another level 4.
Golem is inferior for missions period...its not an opinion.

1.INFERIOR dps by a significant amount.
2.Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission
3.Doesn't have the hi-slots or cargo capacity to salvage/loot level 4's. If it did it might out isk/hour an CNR but it doesn't so it uhhhh doesn't.

Golem can do a few things ok and nothing great. CNR is superior in every quantifiable way. Only possible way a golem could surpass a CNR is if you can find a fitting with torps/rigs to give it a 55ish km range with at least 1 TP. If such a fitting exists im unaware but its not the topic of this discussion.

And sorry in kill missions they are completed after you KILL RATS. Rats die to dps making dps a pretty prime factor in completing missions faster...******.

---

You seemed to have confused the two ships.Almost everything you said is backwards!
1)The Golem's DPS is equal or greater than the CNR.
2)The tank is important, because if you have to run away you arent killing anything.
3)The Golem clearly does have the high slots and cargo to salvage and loot while you kill,hence no need to BM and come back w/ a salvage ship.

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats.

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Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont.

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Obvoiusly not if you take all the loot till you fill your cargo and leave everyting else, but the cargo bay is big enough for all the salvage and the most valuable loot. Leaving a few unnamed t1 mods behind won't cost much.

The benefit of the Golem is either almost all the loot/salvage value of the mission or the time saved by not needing to go back with a specialist salvage ship after you kill everything, depending on whether or not you salvage your missions atm. Either way it more than makes up for the small dps loss imo.

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Giant Haystacks

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I'd expect a missions worth of faction cruise to cost less than the loot/salvage value of the rats.

---

Oh the few rats you can loot/salvage before it slows you down fills up your cargo? I dont.

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Obvoiusly not if you take all the loot till you fill your cargo and leave everyting else, but the cargo bay is big enough for all the salvage and the most valuable loot. Leaving a few unnamed t1 mods behind won't cost much.

The benefit of the Golem is either almost all the loot/salvage value of the mission or the time saved by not needing to go back with a specialist salvage ship after you kill everything, depending on whether or not you salvage your missions atm. Either way it more than makes up for the small dps loss imo.

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It doesnt and its not a matter of opinion its a matter of math. and its not a "slight" amount of different its like 10-15% difference.

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Originally by: Captain Schmungles

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To the OP:

Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically.

That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way:

If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three.

You can also think of it this way:

If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out.

Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven.

Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk

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Originally by: sheis

---

You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner.

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Originally by: Deviant Pixelus

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a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence.
b. Its how good you understand missions
c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with.
d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first

That decide how fast you finish a mission.

you have choice a and b

you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it.

dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in.

If you already have a cnr, stick with it.
If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that.


cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting,
golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr.

its PERSONAL CHOICE

1st choice = CNR
2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem

---

Originally by: NoNamium

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Originally by: Deviant Pixelus

---

a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence.
b. Its how good you understand missions
c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with.
d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first

That decide how fast you finish a mission.

you have choice a and b

you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it.

dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in.

If you already have a cnr, stick with it.
If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that.


cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting,
golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr.

its PERSONAL CHOICE

1st choice = CNR
2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem

---

As I said before, I've tried flying every missionship you can think of.
The Golem is by far the best, but I'm done trying to convince people in love with the CNR. If you want to get less isk per hour, by all means be my guest.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: sheis

---

You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner.

---

1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it.
2) I did test that setup with new torpedoes and decided that while they are murdeously effective in 'sphere of death' of up to approx 60 km I'm not that hell bent on every % of effectivity to go for them as I'm too lazy to refit for those missions where 60 km is not quite cutting it, approx half of level 4 missions.
3) I'm using faction ammo every day to run missions and no, my LP is not 'free'. It is actually worth doing for me. I'm also using CNR with 4x faction BCU's and headful of 5% hardwires to make me more effective. This is also actually cost effective for me as I do care about payback time and not just pimping my ride for the pimp factor.
4) I might be considered pro missionrunner as thats my main source of income to fund my 'fun' activities. T2/Faction ammo is what pros use.

As far as 'golem does more damage than CNR' crowd goes I would be very interested on math behind that claim. Who knows perhaps I'm the one mistaken so enlighten me.

---

Originally by: NoNamium

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Originally by: Deviant Pixelus

---

a. None EVER runs a mission in linear firing sequence.
b. Its how good you understand missions
c. what points of a mission you're comfortable with.
d. What rank of ship you decide to take out first

That decide how fast you finish a mission.

you have choice a and b

you pick whichever one you like hands on and you go with it.

dps will vary person to person depending on their skills and cost also gets factorred in.

If you already have a cnr, stick with it.
If youve got bs 5 and other skills for a golem and dont have a cnr, go for that.


cnr costs approx 2 bil after fitting,
golem will cost the same. the price of faction launchers is the same for the extra price you pay for golem vs cnr.

its PERSONAL CHOICE

1st choice = CNR
2nd choice ( not entirely practical imo but w/e the option is there ) = golem

---

As I said before, I've tried flying every missionship you can think of.
The Golem is by far the best, but I'm done trying to convince people in love with the CNR. If you want to get less isk per hour, by all means be my guest.

---

Originally by: sheis
1.Show me a t2 torp setup with a CNR with 3 velocity rigs that can sustain a tank of 900dps. We will also totally forget about the probably dozen or so missions in that do more than 900dps. I know you cant so its not even worth trying. And did you really just say "cap injector" in the same paragraph talking about your mission fittings?[:roll:

---

2.Uhhh huh? Torps with 1 target painter and a 60km range will do 33% more dps than the OLD torps did. And old torps outshined cruise in almost every single mission barring like 1-2 so im going to have to call bull**** on that. Also 60km with torps isnt even possible even using javelins (which would be pointless instead of just normal cruise)

3.So in your previous point you say you dont care about min/maxing. But then claim to use faction ammo and "headful of 5%" so you can efficiently run missions? Sorry your previous mentions of setups pretty much establishes you have no concept of efficient isk/hr ratio with a ship. Faction ammo to run missions is just moronic if you understood what a "volley" is. Unless are half volleying ships with the dps increase of faction its just plain silly.

4. No you just run missions without really any idea how to do it effectively. Faction ammo and cap injectors ffs

---

Quote:

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Bonus to a tank thats not needed so hence doesn't speed up any mission

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Ok, here's my setup and how I use the golem, take it or leave it:

high: Cruise Launcher II x 4, 2x salvager, 1x small tractor beam
medium: Gist C-type X-Large Shield Booster (running indefinately), Dread Guristas Shield boost amplifier, 4x tech 2 hardners specific to the mission, 1x tech 2 invulnerability field
low: 2x tech 2 Ballistic Control Unit, 2x tech 2 power diagnostic unit
Rigs: 2x 15% cap reduction recharge time
Drones: 3x Wasp II

If somebody has a more efficient setup, please let me know.

Ok, so now for the missions and how I do them:

Always lock the battleships first and start killing them first. After each one dies you lock their wreck, tractor it and use both salvaging modules. by the time the next battleship dies you should have looted and salvaged the first one... rinse, repeat.
When all targets have you locked you launch your drones and send them after the first frigatte. This should clear out frigs pretty fast. You only have to watch out for activating another group.

The missions where you have to travel to the next gate, you should be able to clear out the stage just before reaching the gate (remember the faster speed of the Golem).
Also make sure you only spend time on looting and salvaging the battleships. This should bring in on average an additional profit of 7-12M per mission. Of course if you have time, then by all means salvage the cruisers and battlecruisers as well.

The 1255m3 helps a lot here, and I've almost never filled up on loot. Also 1500 missiles is more than enough for any mission.

If I think of additional info I'll edit this reply.

- NoNamium

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Originally by: Arakidias

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I thought the main selling point of the Golem (aside from the looting/salvaging aspect) was that with enough skills, hardwires and faction gear you could 1 volley every destroyer, cruiser and battlecruiser. And tank at the same time.

Which would mean a huge boost to the "real" DPS.

Correct me if i'm wrong though.

---

Originally by: sheis
1) no it doesnt hahah
2) CNR has the ability to perm tank any level 4 already making additional tank pointless
3)Wrong it doesn't have enough high slots to salvage fast enough to keep up with the rate at which you will kill stuff. It also doesn't have the cargo capacity to to hold a level 4. Some level 4's will now provide 5-7m3 in loot if not more.
4)You are awful at this and shouldnt respond again.[/quote

---

Your words are as hollow as your head.Please go get an adult to explain the big words to you.How do you type with your hands over your eyes, because that must be why you cant see the facts laid out in front of you.
1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.Repeating "No it doesnt" ,"Nuh-uh" and "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" arent informed arguements.
2)As it has been stated with the higher natural resists you can devote more slots to gank-ability and less to tank-ability.
3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.
4)You didnt make it clear what it is I am "awful at".I have to assume its being a spiteful Flaming Troll(to which point you are correct, I am awful at that),please open your little mind and shut your big mouth.Dont attempt to tell me what to do ,little girl.

Now with all that being said and done, I am glad you love your CNR(if you even have one),but the Raven Navy Issue isnt the be all,end all of ships and I am not claiming the Golem is either.As far as Caldari Battleships go look at the Raven State Issue(formerly the Corvinus).I commend your loyalty to the CNR but you dont need to speak down to people to make your point(as I have just done w/ you{hows it feel}).

To everyone else I appologize for the harsh rant.This thread has gone off topic and I am sorry if I helped encourage it.

I will burn that bridge when I come to it!!!

Originally by: Sir Cyco

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1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.

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Originally by: Mjoelner1

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Originally by: Arakidias

---

I thought the main selling point of the Golem (aside from the looting/salvaging aspect) was that with enough skills, hardwires and faction gear you could 1 volley every destroyer, cruiser and battlecruiser. And tank at the same time.

Which would mean a huge boost to the "real" DPS.

Correct me if i'm wrong though.

---

This is correct.
With lows full of DG Bcu's and using CN cruises, I currently do around 5300 dmg/volley, pain't them up a bit and you one volley most ships exept the elites ones below BS size.

//MJ

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Originally by: Captain Schmungles

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To the OP:

Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically.

That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way:

If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three.

You can also think of it this way:

If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out.

Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven.

Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk

---

Originally by: Carniflex4x 100 % damage bonus = 8 'effective' launchers [Golem

---

7x 25% RoF bonus = 9.33 'effective' launchers [CNR]

Thats where that 'CNR has 16% more dps' claim comes. Same as 'CNR is using 44% more ammo' claim if you take into account 7 launchers with RoF bonus versus 4 launchers without RoF bonus.

---

Originally by: Captain Schmungles

---

To the OP:

Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically.

That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way:

If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three.

You can also think of it this way:

If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out.

Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven.

Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk

---

Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Originally by: Carniflex

---

4x 100 % damage bonus = 8 'effective' launchers [Golem]
7x 25% RoF bonus = 9.33 'effective' launchers [CNR]

Thats where that 'CNR has 16% more dps' claim comes. Same as 'CNR is using 44% more ammo' claim if you take into account 7 launchers with RoF bonus versus 4 launchers without RoF bonus.

---

I am trying to figure this out and welcome your opinion.I only see an improvement of 1.75 or 8.75 "eff" launchers which works out to 9%.While that is an improvement ,I feel that Shield ,Armor and Hull resists arent equal and if you overwhelm the Shields in the "Alpha Strike" you crush your enemy much quicker.

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Originally by: Carniflex

---

NPC cheat. They have equal resists (usually) at shields and armor, just higger hp amount in either shields or armor and different repair propabilities.

9.33 'effective' launchers comes from 7 / (1-0.25) = 7/0.75 = 9.33 as RoF bonus is not equal to damage bonus. You would get 8.75 'effective' launchers if CNR would have 5% per level damage bonus for cruise missiles (in that case you would multiply your number of launchers with damage bonus to them to get 'effective' number of launchers). 25% RoF bonus is equal to 33% damage bonus. Difference is 16% between 8 and 9.33 (9.33/8 = 1.16625).

---

Quote:

---

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

I'm sorry, I see it differently.When you consider than the Golem has less need for Tank mods,you can upgrade the DPS.

...

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

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Lots of pointless stuff

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Originally by: sheis
1) no it doesnt hahah
2) CNR has the ability to perm tank any level 4 already making additional tank pointless
3)Wrong it doesn't have enough high slots to salvage fast enough to keep up with the rate at which you will kill stuff. It also doesn't have the cargo capacity to to hold a level 4. Some level 4's will now provide 5-7m3 in loot if not more.
4)You are awful at this and shouldnt respond again.[/quote

---

Your words are as hollow as your head.Please go get an adult to explain the big words to you.How do you type with your hands over your eyes, because that must be why you cant see the facts laid out in front of you.
1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.Repeating "No it doesnt" ,"Nuh-uh" and "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" arent informed arguements.
2)As it has been stated with the higher natural resists you can devote more slots to gank-ability and less to tank-ability.
3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.
4)You didnt make it clear what it is I am "awful at".I have to assume its being a spiteful Flaming Troll(to which point you are correct, I am awful at that),please open your little mind and shut your big mouth.Dont attempt to tell me what to do ,little girl.

Now with all that being said and done, I am glad you love your CNR(if you even have one),but the Raven Navy Issue isnt the be all,end all of ships and I am not claiming the Golem is either.As far as Caldari Battleships go look at the Raven State Issue(formerly the Corvinus).I commend your loyalty to the CNR but you dont need to speak down to people to make your point(as I have just done w/ you{hows it feel}).

To everyone else I appologize for the harsh rant.This thread has gone off topic and I am sorry if I helped encourage it.

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

3.Oh dear you are trying to sound snooty and smart even while being half ********. 3 slots is NOT ENOUGH TO SALVAGE/LOOT TO KEEP PACE WITH THE RATE AT WHICH YOU KILL RATS. Now read the capitalized statement let it sink it.... And 1000m3 wasnt enough to loot/salvage a good many level 4's before trinity. AFTER trinity you need 5-6km3 for some. Ya know how some mod size was increased by a factor of 10-20 times right...You do run missions right? STRIKE THREE!



PS. You are awful at attempting to refute what im saying. Since your entire argument is based on stupid assumptions that anyone who has the vaguest knowledge of the subject can see....please please dont post again

Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Edited by: Sir Cyco on 19/12/2007 16:02:32

Originally by: Carniflex

---

NPC cheat. They have equal resists (usually) at shields and armor, just higher hp amount in either shields or armor and different repair probabilities.

9.33 'effective' launchers comes from 7 / (1-0.25) = 7/0.75 = 9.33 as RoF bonus is not equal to damage bonus. You would get 8.75 'effective' launchers if CNR would have 5% per level damage bonus for cruise missiles (in that case you would multiply your number of launchers with damage bonus to them to get 'effective' number of launchers). 25% RoF bonus is equal to 33% damage bonus. Difference is 16% between 8 and 9.33 (9.33/8 = 1.16625).

---

I'm sorry, I see it differently.When you consider than the Golem has less need for Tank mods,you can upgrade the DPS.One of the shortcomings of this thread is that people are assuming that these ships are going to be fitted the same(aside from the high slots).
Let us not forget the OP's question about defender spamming BS's.Once you are in 12-15 km defenders are rendered useless.So a Golem w/ an afterburner can negate the effect of defenders,whereas a CNR needs that mid slot for its tank.Dont forget a Golem gets an "extra" mid slot.

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better.

---

Originally by: sheis

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

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Originally by: sheis

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Everything else you have posted is pointless. Your setup sucks. Relies on cap injectors and t2 ammo...for mission running. And still wont be able to do some level 4's without warping out. Hence it sucks

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

...

3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.

...

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

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Originally by: Carniflex

---

Try it out sometime. It does actually work and work good. Being able to suck out some numbers from EFT or call names does not make you expert. When you have enough experience actually flying the ship in those actual missions then we perhaps have something more to discuss.

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Originally by: Xauxau

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

---

Maybe because they grasp the full implications of the Trinity torpedo changes coupled with the Golem's target painter bonus? Its not that the theoretical 16% "doesn't matter", it's that you get a lot of it back, even if you already used a target painter.

You're ammo bill is also slashed 57% over the CNR, which is a noticeable savings when using faction ammo.

You get extra cargo space and three extra utility hi slots, letting you salvage and loot the sweet named mods where 60-90% of most missions' loot value resides without reducing run time or making a return trip in a hauler.

On top of all that the Golem looks much, much cheaper to fit than a CNR.

The CNR may run the missions faster owing to higher raw damage output (but probably >>16% faster). The Golem runner still might make more ISK/hour. Might not, for all I know. But its not like the 16% DPS difference generated by EFT is the final say on the matter. Its just one factor among many.

If "16% more damage" settled every argument, nothing but faction ammo would ever get used.

---

Originally by: Xauxau

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Originally by: sheis

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

---

You know, I don't have a Golem, and probably never will. I always find some way of burning lots of ISK quickly when I get to around the 300Million mark.

But even I've figured out that with siege launchers a mid-slot target painter provides a larger boost to overall DPS in most L4s than a 3rd low-slot BCU, let alone a 4th. It seems to me calling the trade of a BCU or a PDS for a target painter is a no-brainer as an improvement, especially with the Golem's target painter bonus.

Honestly, though, I can't get over how much HATE the CNR lovers seem to have for people flying Golems. What's UP with that?

---

Originally by: sheis

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You can still use a target painter in a mid with a CNR if you desired while still doing 16% more raw dps.

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Carniflex

---

Try it out sometime. It does actually work and work good. Being able to suck out some numbers from EFT or call names does not make you expert. When you have enough experience actually flying the ship in those actual missions then we perhaps have something more to discuss.

---

I dont have to try every crap fitting someone spews out. I said show me a CNR torp fit that can tank level 4's without warping out. You gave a fit i then showed you WHY IT CANT TANK LEVEL 4's. You provided a fit that even when using a large cap injector can tank a measly 590dps FOR 4 MINUTES. And thats totally ignoring running out of cap boosters. You also rely on t2 javelines and that torp setup out dps's a cruise setup by about 150ish dps with torps doing MAX damage.
So when compared to a cruise setup and the smaller targets probably around 70dps or so actual damage difference. Dont make claims when you cant provide the proof.

BTW both those setups you "tested" are also horrible. an auto target in a high with a golem?! cap injector for a cruise raven with a sensor mod in a low? Really learn how to fit a ship

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Originally by: Thebriwan

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Chance based would be fine - but still 4 launchers against the 7 of my cnr. I am still not completely convinced.
But it seems to me that I have to try it out by myself.

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Originally by: Xauxau

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

---

Maybe because they grasp the full implications of the Trinity torpedo changes coupled with the Golem's target painter bonus? Its not that the theoretical 16% "doesn't matter", it's that you get a lot of it back, even if you already used a target painter.

You're ammo bill is also slashed 57% over the CNR, which is a noticeable savings when using faction ammo.

You get extra cargo space and three extra utility hi slots, letting you salvage and loot the sweet named mods where 60-90% of most missions' loot value resides without reducing run time or making a return trip in a hauler.

On top of all that the Golem looks much, much cheaper to fit than a CNR.

The CNR may run the missions faster owing to higher raw damage output (but probably >>16% faster). The Golem runner still might make more ISK/hour. Might not, for all I know. But its not like the 16% DPS difference generated by EFT is the final say on the matter. Its just one factor among many.

If "16% more damage" settled every argument, nothing but faction ammo would ever get used.

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Originally by: Gethinlane

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As far as i see it there might be ONE thing that means the Golem could be a faster mission runner:

It's Higher Alpha Strike.

So in some cases the Golem might be able to kill targets in one less volley compared to the CNR.

This in turn would negate the extra ROF gained by the CNR.

Lets say (for easy sake) that a cruise missile does 100 damage, and fires a missile every 10 seconds. And that the target has a total of 3200 effective hitpoints.

The CNR would cause 700 damage per volley, but at 1.25x the rate of normal launchers (ever 8 seconds). So it would require 5 volleys totalling a time of 32 seconds - (you don't count the time for the first volley - volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley)

The golem would cause 800 damage per volley, every 10 seconds. It would therefore require only 4 volleys totalling a time of 30 seconds.

As you can see, it MIGHT be a little bit faster under certain circumstances.

Although, since these circumstances would be rare, the CNR would be faster for everything else.

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

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Originally by: NoNamium

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and 4 Cruise Launchers doing a bit more damage than a standard Raven (DPS).

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Hi, why do you think it does more DPS ? 6 launchers with 25% rof bonus should do exactly the same damage as 4 with 100% dmg bonus: 6/(1 - 0.25) = 4x2.

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Your math is a bit lacking young skywalker. When converting ROF into DPS it works like this:

100 / 125 = 0.8

So that's 1-0.8 = 0.2 = 20% extra damage you do per launcher, and that is, with a regular raven with 6 launchers the equivalence of 7,2 launchers (6 + (6x20%)) = 7,2 effective launchers

And with a Golems 4 launchers with 100% extra damage that's 4x200% = 8 effective launchers. So you get more dps with a golem, strictly speaking.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: sheis

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Try it out sometime. It does actually work and work good. Being able to suck out some numbers from EFT or call names does not make you expert. When you have enough experience actually flying the ship in those actual missions then we perhaps have something more to discuss.

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I dont have to try every crap fitting someone spews out. I said show me a CNR torp fit that can tank level 4's without warping out. You gave a fit i then showed you WHY IT CANT TANK LEVEL 4's. You provided a fit that even when using a large cap injector can tank a measly 590dps FOR 4 MINUTES. And thats totally ignoring running out of cap boosters. You also rely on t2 javelines and that torp setup out dps's a cruise setup by about 150ish dps with torps doing MAX damage.
So when compared to a cruise setup and the smaller targets probably around 70dps or so actual damage difference. Dont make claims when you cant provide the proof.

BTW both those setups you "tested" are also horrible. an auto target in a high with a golem?! cap injector for a cruise raven with a sensor mod in a low? Really learn how to fit a ship

---

That setup did work for me. I did not have to warp out from any of the missions I tried. Granted Enemies abound 5 of 5 nor angels vaganza bonus stage were among those I tested.

My speed of 30 - 40 minutes for vaganzas, worlds collide (killing stuff in 3 stages) and other 'long' missions of 30 to 40 minutes is quite reasonable I think. For a setup that 'does not work lol'.

So you are either flaming for the sake of flaming or one of those armchair generals sucking out numbers from fitting program and throwing them around like it's actual experience with the ship.

As far as proof goes, it's in one of the older threads by me. With numbers added and setups and skills posted so anybody who can be arsed can control them. Can't be arsed to hunt it down atm tho. Just stating that something does not work bcos 'cap charges and t2 ammo, lol' is not proof, it's opinion as long as you don't give us numbers why it's not working. Post better setup without farting 'estamel all' stuff and who knows, perhaps it's indeed better than mine and I'm willing to dabat if it increases my effectivity. Good point to start with would be to use a bit more realistical numbres for needed tank and take into account hp buffer. I don't know what is numbres for needed tank in level 4 missions. I just know that my setup works for them so that I do not have to warp out. It's sure is lower than 900 you at first throwed out and also lower that 600 dps from warp in to last rat, altho peaks can be above 600 I think until you kill off enough targets for damage to drop.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Edited by: NoNamium on 21/12/2007 07:48:41

Originally by: Gethinlane

---

As far as i see it there might be ONE thing that means the Golem could be a faster mission runner:

It's Higher Alpha Strike.

So in some cases the Golem might be able to kill targets in one less volley compared to the CNR.

This in turn would negate the extra ROF gained by the CNR.

Lets say (for easy sake) that a cruise missile does 100 damage, and fires a missile every 10 seconds. And that the target has a total of 3200 effective hitpoints.

The CNR would cause 700 damage per volley, but at 1.25x the rate of normal launchers (ever 8 seconds). So it would require 5 volleys totalling a time of 32 seconds - (you don't count the time for the first volley - volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley)

The golem would cause 800 damage per volley, every 10 seconds. It would therefore require only 4 volleys totalling a time of 30 seconds.

As you can see, it MIGHT be a little bit faster under certain circumstances.

Although, since these circumstances would be rare, the CNR would be faster for everything else.

---

The pro-CNR people generally seem to assume that speed equals more isk/hour. This is a false assumption.
Even IF you could mission-run at 16% greater speed than the Golem which for several reasons isn't possible, some mentioned here and some I'll expand on if necessary, then you wouldn't get the same amount of loot nor any salvage.

A mission gives you the following rewards:

Reward.
Bonus.
Bounty.
Loot.
Salvage.

I don't have the exact numbers here but let me give an example, which should be somewhat realistic:

Mission - Guristas Extravaganza (Motzu - New Citadel region)

Done in a Golem

Reward - 1.5M
Bonus - 1.5
Bounty - 10-12M (This may be a bit off, but not by much)
Loot - 3-4M
Salvage - 5-7M

Done in CNR

Reward - 1.5M
Bonus - 1.5
Bounty - 10-12M (This may be a bit off, but not by much)

Lets be pessimistic and say it takes 25% longer for the the Golem to finish, and lets even throw more in favor of the CNR that some ships die near it and it gets a full 1M worth of loot, and lets make it worse for the Golem. The mission gives 12M in bounty and lowest scores on loot and salvage for the Golem.

Total Reward:

Golem: 1.5M + 1.5M + 12M + 3M + 5M = 23M
CNR: 1.5M + 1.5M + 12M + 1M = 16M

but the Golem spent 5/4 of the time getting that amount of isk which means we need to divide by that number to get the same time frame:

Golem isk/time: 23M / (1.25) = 18.4M
CNR isk/time: 16M

now the CNR should also accumulate more LP over time, but these are hard to add to the equation unless we give them some isk/LP value. If anyone would like LP to the equation, be my guest.

Now I used very pessimistic numbers for the Golem and it still comes out on top. This talk about DPS and tanking is really deluding you from the real issue: ISK/HOUR-rate.

Hope this shed some more light on the issue.

- NoNamium

PS: Even if you double the amount of bounty they each come out 28M.

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Originally by: sheis

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1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

3.Oh dear you are trying to sound snooty and smart even while being half ********. 3 slots is NOT ENOUGH TO SALVAGE/LOOT TO KEEP PACE WITH THE RATE AT WHICH YOU KILL RATS. Now read the capitalized statement let it sink it.... And 1000m3 wasnt enough to loot/salvage a good many level 4's before trinity. AFTER trinity you need 5-6km3 for some. Ya know how some mod size was increased by a factor of 10-20 times right...You do run missions right? STRIKE THREE!
PS. You are awful at attempting to refute what im saying. Since your entire argument is based on stupid assumptions that anyone who has the vaguest knowledge of the subject can see....please please dont post again

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Originally by: sheis

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Brilliant numbers! Of course you seem to forget the simple fact that a golem doesn't have enough high slots to actually salvage a mission increasing the time it takes to finish it by a significant amount even with the golems lower dps.

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Originally by: sheis

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Also doesn't have the cargo capacity to hold the loot of an entire level 4 either.

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Originally by: sheis

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But nice try at "shedding some light".

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Originally by: sheis

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A single BS wreck after trinity can give you 250m3 OF JUST LOOT NOT COUNTING CAP CHARGES.

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Originally by: sheis

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GOLEM HAS 1000m3 cargo bay. Figure it out.

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Originally by: sheis

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also 2000/1 ratio is a conservative estimate for lp value.

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Originally by: Sir Cyco

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Originally by: sheis

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1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

3.Oh dear you are trying to sound snooty and smart even while being half ********. 3 slots is NOT ENOUGH TO SALVAGE/LOOT TO KEEP PACE WITH THE RATE AT WHICH YOU KILL RATS. Now read the capitalized statement let it sink it.... And 1000m3 wasnt enough to loot/salvage a good many level 4's before trinity. AFTER trinity you need 5-6km3 for some. Ya know how some mod size was increased by a factor of 10-20 times right...You do run missions right? STRIKE THREE!
PS. You are awful at attempting to refute what im saying. Since your entire argument is based on stupid assumptions that anyone who has the vaguest knowledge of the subject can see....please please dont post again

---

1)Since you cant make a point w/o name calling I doubt you have the intellect to actually contribute anything to this thread.
2)A Target Painter.It does exist and the Golem gets 7.5 % bonus per level.Since you missed something as obvious as this my mind boggles at what else you have missed.
3)I never said 3 slots is enough to keep pace w/ my slaughter,but is enough to get the job done w/o docking and bringing out a Salvage ship.The Golem has 1225 m3 of Cargo space and requires 1/2 the ammo allowing for even more room.Since you got this wrong as well I am getting more and more curious as to where you might be getting your info.When you talk about missions having 5-6 km3 of loot I assume you mean the Extravaganzas.Most missions dont have nearly that much and I have been playing long enough to know what can be left behind(items of so little value that their reprocessing doesnt warrant bringing them in or making a second trip for them).So I return your question"You do run missions right?".
My guess is that you have someone else ( or EFT) fit your ships for you as you clearly arent intelligent or informed enough to do it yourself.Your arguements are full of petty name calling and outright lies.I am honestly suprised you are allowed on these forums after reviewing some of your other posts in different threads.
Let me leave you w/ this thought(I know thinking isnt your strong suit,but give it a try).The proof is in the pudding.Why dont you let me watch you do a mission and see how great you are.Since you are in a NPC Corp ,have a 0.0 sec standing and are only 1 1/2 years old ,I am guessing you are an Alt.Opinions are like a$$holes,everyone has one and most stink.Keep yours to yourself,little girl.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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stuff

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Originally by: sheis

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Ummm obviously you have no clue what your talking about pre lp store a CNR went for anywhere from for like 1.5+b

Implants/skill books had an even higher isk/lp ratio. The absolute lowest value of LP was 1000/1 due to the npc buy orders for the chips. Saying that was "the standard" is just moronic. When the lp store first came out you could get a 10000/1 ratio since most of the stuff was so rare previously.

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Originally by: Xauxau

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Originally by: sheis

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Ummm obviously you have no clue what your talking about pre lp store a CNR went for anywhere from for like 1.5+b

Implants/skill books had an even higher isk/lp ratio. The absolute lowest value of LP was 1000/1 due to the npc buy orders for the chips. Saying that was "the standard" is just moronic. When the lp store first came out you could get a 10000/1 ratio since most of the stuff was so rare previously.

---

Ummm. Once upon a time Dinosaurs roamed the Earth. I still don't expect to see one anytime soon.

Anyone who claims its easy to net 2000 ISK per LP from say, the Caldari Navy LP store, at the present time, is either lying or deluded. The asking price for Navy Issue Ravens is less than 600 Million now. The offer price is lower still. The conversion ratio of other items has fallen well under 1000 ISK per lp.

The only exception seems to be the SOE store. I myself have experienced some unexpected old-style 4000 ISK per LP goodness from the SOE store during the past week or so. But I've just been lucky to be at the right place at the right time. It won't last much longer.

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Originally by: sheis

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PS. CNRs sell for 700-800m all day long.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: sheis

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You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner.

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1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it.

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: sheis

---

You cant use torps on a CNR with missile velocity rigs and a TP while fitting a tank strong enough to not warp out on level 4's. Only thing that makes it possible in a golem. is that you only have to fit 4 launchers its faster cap recharge and its tank bonus's. Also when comparing fits you always assume the same quality. You dont compare navy launchers and ammo to standard t1 and ammo. Also setups using t2/faction ammo are also silly for any pro mission runner.

---

1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it.

---

Oh, Oh, please show me that setup! I do have a hard time believing you, seeing the launchers alone will take 550 CPU. You are bound to end up with a really crappy tank and your cargo hold full of cap charges instead of torps.

For the rest of you, could we please hold the debate until people have had a chance to test the darn things? It's rather meaningless to draw all these conclusions just from trying things in the EFT simulator. I can say with 100% certainty that no one has the Marauder skill at level 5 yet.

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Originally by: Barbicane

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...
For the rest of you, could we please hold the debate until people have had a chance to test the darn things? It's rather meaningless to draw all these conclusions just from trying things in the EFT simulator. I can say with 100% certainty that no one has the Marauder skill at level 5 yet.

---

I've had lvl 4 Marauder for some time now and tested the Golem in Motzu for some time. All lvl 5 would benefit me would be 7.5% increase on my shield boost, which shouldn't be an issue since I can tank 1500DPS atm.

This character should be more than able to test out this ship:
NoNamium

- NoNamium

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Edited by: Barbicane on 22/12/2007 11:01:46

(edit: trimmed the quote chain)

Originally by: NoNamium

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Originally by: Barbicane

---

...
For the rest of you, could we please hold the debate until people have had a chance to test the darn things? It's rather meaningless to draw all these conclusions just from trying things in the EFT simulator. I can say with 100% certainty that no one has the Marauder skill at level 5 yet.

---

I've had lvl 4 Marauder for some time now and tested the Golem in Motzu for some time. All lvl 5 would benefit me would be 7.5% increase on my shield boost, which shouldn't be an issue since I can tank 1500DPS atm.

This character should be more than able to test out this ship:
NoNamium

- NoNamium

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No offense, but I think you lack some t2 torp and painting skills (Signature Focusing) to make the most of the Golem. 2 weeks of dedicated training should fix that. Nice, well-balanced char!

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Originally by: Birkinz

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Edited by: Birkinz on 21/12/2007 10:04:04
Some people like to fly through ignoring all loot and salvage and run as many missions as possible in a time frame. For this I would suggest the CNR is superior.

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Originally by: Barbicane

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Originally by: Carniflex

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1) I can get T2 torpedo setup on CNR with 3x BCU's, target painter, 3x missile rigs and strong enough tank to do them without warpouts. (AWU 5, other support skills also lev 4 or 5, missile rigging skill level 4, faction CPU and officer cheap RCU ~150 mil, u can do it with AWU 4 if you go for the top officer RCU). If you downgrade heavy cap injector into medium one you dont even need that good skills to do it.

---

Oh, Oh, please show me that setup! I do have a hard time believing you, seeing the launchers alone will take 550 CPU. You are bound to end up with a really crappy tank and your cargo hold full of cap charges instead of torps.

For the rest of you, could we please hold the debate until people have had a chance to test the darn things? It's rather meaningless to draw all these conclusions just from trying things in the EFT simulator. I can say with 100% certainty that no one has the Marauder skill at level 5 yet.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

Setup I used for the test is:
Hi: 7x Siege launcher II 1x Auto Targeting System I
Med: CN XL booster, 3x rat specific T2 hardeners, 1x PWNAGE painter 1x Heavy Electrochem Cap injector I (x800)
Low: 3x CN BCU 1x Shadow serpentis CPU 1x Selyenne Modifed RCU
Rigs: 3x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I + T2 drones (5x med, 5x light)

I got around 55 km range with javelins with 4/4 in range support skills and BS 5. It should reach a bit above 60 (theoretical is ~70, but in the test actual range was approx 90% of theoretical).

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Originally by: Taloic

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Though I now fly a Nighthawk which has comperable damage to a cruise fitted Golum/CNR ...

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Originally by: NoNamium

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Edited by: NoNamium on 21/12/2007 07:48:41

Originally by: Gethinlane

---

As far as i see it there might be ONE thing that means the Golem could be a faster mission runner:

It's Higher Alpha Strike.

So in some cases the Golem might be able to kill targets in one less volley compared to the CNR.

This in turn would negate the extra ROF gained by the CNR.

Lets say (for easy sake) that a cruise missile does 100 damage, and fires a missile every 10 seconds. And that the target has a total of 3200 effective hitpoints.

The CNR would cause 700 damage per volley, but at 1.25x the rate of normal launchers (ever 8 seconds). So it would require 5 volleys totalling a time of 32 seconds - (you don't count the time for the first volley - volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley)

The golem would cause 800 damage per volley, every 10 seconds. It would therefore require only 4 volleys totalling a time of 30 seconds.

As you can see, it MIGHT be a little bit faster under certain circumstances.

Although, since these circumstances would be rare, the CNR would be faster for everything else.

---

The pro-CNR people generally seem to assume that speed equals more isk/hour. This is a false assumption.
Even IF you could mission-run at 16% greater speed than the Golem which for several reasons isn't possible, some mentioned here and some I'll expand on if necessary, then you wouldn't get the same amount of loot nor any salvage.

A mission gives you the following rewards:

Reward.
Bonus.
Bounty.
Loot.
Salvage.

I don't have the exact numbers here but let me give an example, which should be somewhat realistic:

Mission - Guristas Extravaganza (Motzu - New Citadel region)

Done in a Golem

Reward - 1.5M
Bonus - 1.5
Bounty - 10-12M (This may be a bit off, but not by much)
Loot - 3-4M
Salvage - 5-7M

Done in CNR

Reward - 1.5M
Bonus - 1.5
Bounty - 10-12M (This may be a bit off, but not by much)

Lets be pessimistic and say it takes 25% longer for the the Golem to finish, and lets even throw more in favor of the CNR that some ships die near it and it gets a full 1M worth of loot, and lets make it worse for the Golem. The mission gives 12M in bounty and lowest scores on loot and salvage for the Golem.

Total Reward:

Golem: 1.5M + 1.5M + 12M + 3M + 5M = 23M
CNR: 1.5M + 1.5M + 12M + 1M = 16M

but the Golem spent 5/4 of the time getting that amount of isk which means we need to divide by that number to get the same time frame:

Golem isk/time: 23M / (1.25) = 18.4M
CNR isk/time: 16M

now the CNR should also accumulate more LP over time, but these are hard to add to the equation unless we give them some isk/LP value. If anyone would like LP to the equation, be my guest.

Now I used very pessimistic numbers for the Golem and it still comes out on top. This talk about DPS and tanking is really deluding you from the real issue: ISK/HOUR-rate.

Hope this shed some more light on the issue.

- NoNamium

PS: Even if you double the amount of bounty they each come out 28M.

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