Originally by: Arakidias

---

I thought the main selling point of the Golem (aside from the looting/salvaging aspect) was that with enough skills, hardwires and faction gear you could 1 volley every destroyer, cruiser and battlecruiser. And tank at the same time.

Which would mean a huge boost to the "real" DPS.

Correct me if i'm wrong though.

---

Originally by: sheis
1) no it doesnt hahah
2) CNR has the ability to perm tank any level 4 already making additional tank pointless
3)Wrong it doesn't have enough high slots to salvage fast enough to keep up with the rate at which you will kill stuff. It also doesn't have the cargo capacity to to hold a level 4. Some level 4's will now provide 5-7m3 in loot if not more.
4)You are awful at this and shouldnt respond again.[/quote

---

Your words are as hollow as your head.Please go get an adult to explain the big words to you.How do you type with your hands over your eyes, because that must be why you cant see the facts laid out in front of you.
1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.Repeating "No it doesnt" ,"Nuh-uh" and "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" arent informed arguements.
2)As it has been stated with the higher natural resists you can devote more slots to gank-ability and less to tank-ability.
3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.
4)You didnt make it clear what it is I am "awful at".I have to assume its being a spiteful Flaming Troll(to which point you are correct, I am awful at that),please open your little mind and shut your big mouth.Dont attempt to tell me what to do ,little girl.

Now with all that being said and done, I am glad you love your CNR(if you even have one),but the Raven Navy Issue isnt the be all,end all of ships and I am not claiming the Golem is either.As far as Caldari Battleships go look at the Raven State Issue(formerly the Corvinus).I commend your loyalty to the CNR but you dont need to speak down to people to make your point(as I have just done w/ you{hows it feel}).

To everyone else I appologize for the harsh rant.This thread has gone off topic and I am sorry if I helped encourage it.

I will burn that bridge when I come to it!!!

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.

---

Originally by: Mjoelner1

---

Originally by: Arakidias

---

I thought the main selling point of the Golem (aside from the looting/salvaging aspect) was that with enough skills, hardwires and faction gear you could 1 volley every destroyer, cruiser and battlecruiser. And tank at the same time.

Which would mean a huge boost to the "real" DPS.

Correct me if i'm wrong though.

---

This is correct.
With lows full of DG Bcu's and using CN cruises, I currently do around 5300 dmg/volley, pain't them up a bit and you one volley most ships exept the elites ones below BS size.

//MJ

---

Originally by: Captain Schmungles

---

To the OP:

Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically.

That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way:

If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three.

You can also think of it this way:

If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out.

Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven.

Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk

---

Originally by: Carniflex4x 100 % damage bonus = 8 'effective' launchers [Golem

---

7x 25% RoF bonus = 9.33 'effective' launchers [CNR]

Thats where that 'CNR has 16% more dps' claim comes. Same as 'CNR is using 44% more ammo' claim if you take into account 7 launchers with RoF bonus versus 4 launchers without RoF bonus.

---

Originally by: Captain Schmungles

---

To the OP:

Given the number of varied responses to the golem's dps, I'd venture that no one actually knows what its dps is or if they do, they have no clue how to express it mathematically.

That said, I've seen npc battleships launch as many as 3 defenders per volley. I'm no math major, but I look at it this way:

If I fire one volley of 4 missiles and three get shot down then only one of my missiles hits the target. Given the 100% damage bonus that's effectively like two missiles hitting. However, if I fire 7 from a CNR and 3 get shot down then 4 still hit the target. 4 is greater than 1, it is also greater than 2. Even with the Golem's bonuses 1 missile from a Golem does not equal 4 missiles from a t1 ship. Therefore, a CNR will fair better against a defender-spamming bs as it fires more missiles and won't suffer as much if the bs shoots down three.

You can also think of it this way:

If you fire 4 missiles and three get shot down each volley, then you've taken a 75% reduction to your damage output. If you fire 7 missiles per volley and three get shot down each volley, then you've only taken a 42.8% reduction to your damage output. Even if we agree that one Golem missile is equal to two "normal" missiles, that doesn't even things out.

Let's say you ran missions in a state-issue raven (8 missile hardpoints). Theoretically you could match a Golem's damage output since you can fire 8 missiles to the Golem's four "super missiles." However, even when the bs spams 3 defenders per volley 5 missiles from your state-issue raven will hit to the 1 "super missile." 5 > 1, advantage state-issue raven.

Oh, and I failed to mention that a Golem gets a measly 14 point sensor strength (equal to a caracal). That's really bad. You will get jammed a lot since every npc cruiser and battleship can jam you. I, for one, hate battleships especially since all of the missile boats (I think) are terrible. Fly a Nighthawk

---

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

4x 100 % damage bonus = 8 'effective' launchers [Golem]
7x 25% RoF bonus = 9.33 'effective' launchers [CNR]

Thats where that 'CNR has 16% more dps' claim comes. Same as 'CNR is using 44% more ammo' claim if you take into account 7 launchers with RoF bonus versus 4 launchers without RoF bonus.

---

I am trying to figure this out and welcome your opinion.I only see an improvement of 1.75 or 8.75 "eff" launchers which works out to 9%.While that is an improvement ,I feel that Shield ,Armor and Hull resists arent equal and if you overwhelm the Shields in the "Alpha Strike" you crush your enemy much quicker.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

NPC cheat. They have equal resists (usually) at shields and armor, just higger hp amount in either shields or armor and different repair propabilities.

9.33 'effective' launchers comes from 7 / (1-0.25) = 7/0.75 = 9.33 as RoF bonus is not equal to damage bonus. You would get 8.75 'effective' launchers if CNR would have 5% per level damage bonus for cruise missiles (in that case you would multiply your number of launchers with damage bonus to them to get 'effective' number of launchers). 25% RoF bonus is equal to 33% damage bonus. Difference is 16% between 8 and 9.33 (9.33/8 = 1.16625).

---

Quote:

---

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better

---

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

I'm sorry, I see it differently.When you consider than the Golem has less need for Tank mods,you can upgrade the DPS.

...

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

Lots of pointless stuff

---

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

Originally by: sheis
1) no it doesnt hahah
2) CNR has the ability to perm tank any level 4 already making additional tank pointless
3)Wrong it doesn't have enough high slots to salvage fast enough to keep up with the rate at which you will kill stuff. It also doesn't have the cargo capacity to to hold a level 4. Some level 4's will now provide 5-7m3 in loot if not more.
4)You are awful at this and shouldnt respond again.[/quote

---

Your words are as hollow as your head.Please go get an adult to explain the big words to you.How do you type with your hands over your eyes, because that must be why you cant see the facts laid out in front of you.
1)4 launchers w/ 2 times damage is equal to more than 7 launchers.After you take into account skills and ship abilities it almost evens out,hence my earlier statement.Repeating "No it doesnt" ,"Nuh-uh" and "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" arent informed arguements.
2)As it has been stated with the higher natural resists you can devote more slots to gank-ability and less to tank-ability.
3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.
4)You didnt make it clear what it is I am "awful at".I have to assume its being a spiteful Flaming Troll(to which point you are correct, I am awful at that),please open your little mind and shut your big mouth.Dont attempt to tell me what to do ,little girl.

Now with all that being said and done, I am glad you love your CNR(if you even have one),but the Raven Navy Issue isnt the be all,end all of ships and I am not claiming the Golem is either.As far as Caldari Battleships go look at the Raven State Issue(formerly the Corvinus).I commend your loyalty to the CNR but you dont need to speak down to people to make your point(as I have just done w/ you{hows it feel}).

To everyone else I appologize for the harsh rant.This thread has gone off topic and I am sorry if I helped encourage it.

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

3.Oh dear you are trying to sound snooty and smart even while being half ********. 3 slots is NOT ENOUGH TO SALVAGE/LOOT TO KEEP PACE WITH THE RATE AT WHICH YOU KILL RATS. Now read the capitalized statement let it sink it.... And 1000m3 wasnt enough to loot/salvage a good many level 4's before trinity. AFTER trinity you need 5-6km3 for some. Ya know how some mod size was increased by a factor of 10-20 times right...You do run missions right? STRIKE THREE!



PS. You are awful at attempting to refute what im saying. Since your entire argument is based on stupid assumptions that anyone who has the vaguest knowledge of the subject can see....please please dont post again

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

Edited by: Sir Cyco on 19/12/2007 16:02:32

Originally by: Carniflex

---

NPC cheat. They have equal resists (usually) at shields and armor, just higher hp amount in either shields or armor and different repair probabilities.

9.33 'effective' launchers comes from 7 / (1-0.25) = 7/0.75 = 9.33 as RoF bonus is not equal to damage bonus. You would get 8.75 'effective' launchers if CNR would have 5% per level damage bonus for cruise missiles (in that case you would multiply your number of launchers with damage bonus to them to get 'effective' number of launchers). 25% RoF bonus is equal to 33% damage bonus. Difference is 16% between 8 and 9.33 (9.33/8 = 1.16625).

---

I'm sorry, I see it differently.When you consider than the Golem has less need for Tank mods,you can upgrade the DPS.One of the shortcomings of this thread is that people are assuming that these ships are going to be fitted the same(aside from the high slots).
Let us not forget the OP's question about defender spamming BS's.Once you are in 12-15 km defenders are rendered useless.So a Golem w/ an afterburner can negate the effect of defenders,whereas a CNR needs that mid slot for its tank.Dont forget a Golem gets an "extra" mid slot.

I guess my final word on this is that it depends on your personal play style and preferences as to which ship is better.

---

Originally by: sheis

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

---

Originally by: sheis

---

Everything else you have posted is pointless. Your setup sucks. Relies on cap injectors and t2 ammo...for mission running. And still wont be able to do some level 4's without warping out. Hence it sucks

---

Originally by: Sir Cyco

---

...

3)As I said before the Golem clearly DOES have the slots to salvage as you go.The Golems cargo bay is nearly twice the CNR and it needs 1/2 the ammo which equates to plenty of room for loot.BTW which missions are you running that only have 5-7 cubic meters of loot( m3 = meters cubed)the lvl 4 missions I solo have closer to a km3(thats 1000 cubic meters)which the Golem can handle.

...

---

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

Try it out sometime. It does actually work and work good. Being able to suck out some numbers from EFT or call names does not make you expert. When you have enough experience actually flying the ship in those actual missions then we perhaps have something more to discuss.

---

Originally by: Xauxau

---

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

---

Maybe because they grasp the full implications of the Trinity torpedo changes coupled with the Golem's target painter bonus? Its not that the theoretical 16% "doesn't matter", it's that you get a lot of it back, even if you already used a target painter.

You're ammo bill is also slashed 57% over the CNR, which is a noticeable savings when using faction ammo.

You get extra cargo space and three extra utility hi slots, letting you salvage and loot the sweet named mods where 60-90% of most missions' loot value resides without reducing run time or making a return trip in a hauler.

On top of all that the Golem looks much, much cheaper to fit than a CNR.

The CNR may run the missions faster owing to higher raw damage output (but probably >>16% faster). The Golem runner still might make more ISK/hour. Might not, for all I know. But its not like the 16% DPS difference generated by EFT is the final say on the matter. Its just one factor among many.

If "16% more damage" settled every argument, nothing but faction ammo would ever get used.

---

Originally by: Xauxau

---

Originally by: sheis

---

1. I cant tell if you are joking are in fact really this stupid. hint hint 25% rof bonus on a CNR does more than 4 launchers with 100% damage bonus. In conclusion you are a moron. STRIKE ONE!

2.Oh really and what exactly is this mid slot mod that boosts damage for missiles? Ill give you a hint it doesnt exist. BUT a golem does in fact have one less low slot which ARE used for missile dps. STRIKE TWO!

---

You know, I don't have a Golem, and probably never will. I always find some way of burning lots of ISK quickly when I get to around the 300Million mark.

But even I've figured out that with siege launchers a mid-slot target painter provides a larger boost to overall DPS in most L4s than a 3rd low-slot BCU, let alone a 4th. It seems to me calling the trade of a BCU or a PDS for a target painter is a no-brainer as an improvement, especially with the Golem's target painter bonus.

Honestly, though, I can't get over how much HATE the CNR lovers seem to have for people flying Golems. What's UP with that?

---

Originally by: sheis

---

You can still use a target painter in a mid with a CNR if you desired while still doing 16% more raw dps.

---

Originally by: sheis

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

Try it out sometime. It does actually work and work good. Being able to suck out some numbers from EFT or call names does not make you expert. When you have enough experience actually flying the ship in those actual missions then we perhaps have something more to discuss.

---

I dont have to try every crap fitting someone spews out. I said show me a CNR torp fit that can tank level 4's without warping out. You gave a fit i then showed you WHY IT CANT TANK LEVEL 4's. You provided a fit that even when using a large cap injector can tank a measly 590dps FOR 4 MINUTES. And thats totally ignoring running out of cap boosters. You also rely on t2 javelines and that torp setup out dps's a cruise setup by about 150ish dps with torps doing MAX damage.
So when compared to a cruise setup and the smaller targets probably around 70dps or so actual damage difference. Dont make claims when you cant provide the proof.

BTW both those setups you "tested" are also horrible. an auto target in a high with a golem?! cap injector for a cruise raven with a sensor mod in a low? Really learn how to fit a ship

---

Originally by: Thebriwan

---

Chance based would be fine - but still 4 launchers against the 7 of my cnr. I am still not completely convinced.
But it seems to me that I have to try it out by myself.

---

Originally by: Xauxau

---

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba

---

People spend a lowslot to fit a fourth bcu which gives only a few extra % dps. Or they spend hundred of millions or even billions for faction/officer bcus and launchers, to get that last % of dps out of their ships. So how can someon possibly say 16% don't matter ?

---

Maybe because they grasp the full implications of the Trinity torpedo changes coupled with the Golem's target painter bonus? Its not that the theoretical 16% "doesn't matter", it's that you get a lot of it back, even if you already used a target painter.

You're ammo bill is also slashed 57% over the CNR, which is a noticeable savings when using faction ammo.

You get extra cargo space and three extra utility hi slots, letting you salvage and loot the sweet named mods where 60-90% of most missions' loot value resides without reducing run time or making a return trip in a hauler.

On top of all that the Golem looks much, much cheaper to fit than a CNR.

The CNR may run the missions faster owing to higher raw damage output (but probably >>16% faster). The Golem runner still might make more ISK/hour. Might not, for all I know. But its not like the 16% DPS difference generated by EFT is the final say on the matter. Its just one factor among many.

If "16% more damage" settled every argument, nothing but faction ammo would ever get used.

---

Originally by: Gethinlane

---

As far as i see it there might be ONE thing that means the Golem could be a faster mission runner:

It's Higher Alpha Strike.

So in some cases the Golem might be able to kill targets in one less volley compared to the CNR.

This in turn would negate the extra ROF gained by the CNR.

Lets say (for easy sake) that a cruise missile does 100 damage, and fires a missile every 10 seconds. And that the target has a total of 3200 effective hitpoints.

The CNR would cause 700 damage per volley, but at 1.25x the rate of normal launchers (ever 8 seconds). So it would require 5 volleys totalling a time of 32 seconds - (you don't count the time for the first volley - volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley:8s:volley)

The golem would cause 800 damage per volley, every 10 seconds. It would therefore require only 4 volleys totalling a time of 30 seconds.

As you can see, it MIGHT be a little bit faster under certain circumstances.

Although, since these circumstances would be rare, the CNR would be faster for everything else.

---