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Sir John Halsey
4
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Posted - 2012.06.15 20:01:00 -
[151] - Quote
Reiisha wrote: ... snip ...
EVE defenses are far superior. The shields don't deflect like in ST, but they absorb, making them far more effective and less vulnerable to weapons matching their frequences. Unlike ST ships, EVE ships also have massively reinforced armor plating, even on Caldari and Minmatar ships. ST relies almost exclusively on shields, if you penetrate them you're in deep trouble.
... snip ...
Somebody didn't watch ST i see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD-YtkHFPkE
Fast forward to 6:00
Edit: and the same thing when Voyager goes after the Borg but i'm too lazy to dig it up on youtube. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
4
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Posted - 2012.06.16 05:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
EVE generally beats most Scifi because the ships are truly 100% warships in most other settings. outside of BSG and a handful of others.
Even Star Wars is not tried and true Warships, as the Empire lived a whole lot on show and fear rather than smartly designed warships.
to be fair and this is strange.... post Asgard upgrade battlecruisers fromt he SGC are likely the best challenge. Especially if they have a ZPM plugged in. |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
176
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Posted - 2012.06.16 07:38:00 -
[153] - Quote
Sir John Halsey wrote:Reiisha wrote: ... snip ...
EVE defenses are far superior. The shields don't deflect like in ST, but they absorb, making them far more effective and less vulnerable to weapons matching their frequences. Unlike ST ships, EVE ships also have massively reinforced armor plating, even on Caldari and Minmatar ships. ST relies almost exclusively on shields, if you penetrate them you're in deep trouble.
... snip ...
Somebody didn't watch ST i see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD-YtkHFPkEFast forward to 6:00 Edit: and the same thing when Voyager goes after the Borg but i'm too lazy to dig it up on youtube. while that is technically armor, it's not nearly as effective as EvE armor. in that, it's basically ultradense bits of metal that they can strap on to delay the ultimate destruction of the ship. it's not designed to ever be repaired and is generally only useful for one or 2 uses. |
Kirjava
E X C E P T I O N Persona Non Gratis
2
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Posted - 2012.06.18 02:07:00 -
[154] - Quote
Damn I waded a lot to get here, but here's my two pence.
Star Trek is probably the technologically more capable faction but although I haven't seen it and remembered it to the degree as many here, I feel they would not grasp the humanity of Eve.
Outnumbered out gunned and outmanoeuvred the factions of New Eden would be, they would be more capable of waging total war upon the Federation. Already on the total war setting with the capacity to ressurect its greatest commanders as soon as they die on the battlefield and an economy capable of pumping out Supercapital fleets faster than the Federation could.
Even if NE factions lost 9 in 10 battles we would have an economy more capable of replenishing and capitalising upon the single victory and be considerably more ruthless in our pressing of that victory.
Full spectrum warfare, biological weapons deployed by deep space stealth bombers, building stargates in conquered systems to replenish logistics and drawing on local resources to supplement the effort. Combine this with immortal soldiers from Dust....
Joseph Stalin wrote:Quantity has a quality all of its own
On the other hand....
Star Trek wrote: Hey, we can [Technobabble] the [Tech item] to [science things here] the [item of interest] to [plot resolution item here].
Start Trek tech would be desirable to the NE factions, why have our warp drives and stargates when we can have their warp drives and stargates to get a combined synergy?
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Cardinal Kirjava - Redeclaring the Crusade in the name of the Goddess since 2012. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
43
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Posted - 2012.06.18 05:59:00 -
[155] - Quote
Welp, this thread was entertaining to say the least XD
You have trekkie advocates that goes only by what the lore and spec books says while ignoring what actually happens on screen due to technical/budget/visual impact limitations, while at the same time ignores EVE's lore and only concentrate on what's in the game, which is limited due to gameplay balance issues.
Not that many of the eve advocates are much better, ignoring the ST lore solely in favor of what they see on screen, which again is obviously the result of the above-mentioned limitations.
My own two cents? trying to compare the two is an exercise in futility, as there is no real measuring stick by which to compare the technobabbles in both universe, especially with one as wild and inconsistent as the ST universe.
what I found to be most LUL worthy though, is when people claimed that EVE weaponry is comparable, or even obsolete by today's standard. It's one thing to be stupid, it's another to be THAT stupid :P or please point out to me which country on earth has developed antimatter weaponry :P
and no, you don't get to discard the instant-200km+ hit by saying it's a gameplay limitation, while championing the 250km range and tracking as a sign of inferiority when it's caused by the same gameplay limitation. After all, in EVE lore there are no such limitations, Titan (or just a fleet of battleships) can destroy a planet with ease, let's see you try to do that with your RL cruise missiles. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
92
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Posted - 2012.06.18 06:47:00 -
[156] - Quote
Sobach wrote:Not that many of the eve advocates are much better, ignoring the ST lore solely in favor of what they see on screen, which again is obviously the result of the above-mentioned limitations.
No, the reason we ignore the lore is because the official policy of the people who actually make Star Trek is that only what you see on screen is canon. The "lore" you refer to is no more canon than random fanfiction, and is only "official" in the sense that it can legally be sold under the "Star Trek" name. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
43
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Posted - 2012.06.18 07:13:00 -
[157] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Sobach wrote:Not that many of the eve advocates are much better, ignoring the ST lore solely in favor of what they see on screen, which again is obviously the result of the above-mentioned limitations. No, the reason we ignore the lore is because the official policy of the people who actually make Star Trek is that only what you see on screen is canon. The "lore" you refer to is no more canon than random fanfiction, and is only "official" in the sense that it can legally be sold under the "Star Trek" name.
then shouldn't you accept everything that's in the show at face value? that voyager clip earlier where they said they begin firing while still thousands of kilometers away, even though it looks much closer than that during the firing scene, which can be chalked up to the impracticality and pointlessness of trying to show BVR space combat? |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
92
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Posted - 2012.06.18 07:29:00 -
[158] - Quote
Sobach wrote:then shouldn't you accept everything that's in the show at face value? that voyager clip earlier where they said they begin firing while still thousands of kilometers away, even though it looks much closer than that during the firing scene, which can be chalked up to the impracticality and pointlessness of trying to show BVR space combat?
BVR combat is perfectly easy to show, you simply have the ship fire, then in a separate scene you see the weapons hit. It might not be as aesthetically pleasing for some people, but there's no reason that the producers of Star Trek couldn't show BVR combat if they wanted to. Given that they ignored this option, the obvious conclusion is that they did not want to show BVR combat.
As for the crew, just ask yourself this: if you had a video of someone telling you that they're standing 100 miles away from their friend, who is visible and standing right next to them, would you believe the visuals or the dialogue? It's the same for Star Trek. The canon TV show very clearly portrays slow, visual range combat happening between ships crewed by ****ing idiots who are too stupid to know what range they're at.
Does this say some pretty bad things about Star Trek? Sure, but then again this is the show where the second-in-command of the Federation flagship gets his ship destroyed because he's too stupid to simply return fire and blow away a 100+ year old Bird of Prey that Kirk, ~100 years earlier, outgunned 10:1. Incompetence is pretty much the defining theme of the military in Star Trek. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
43
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Posted - 2012.06.18 08:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote: BVR combat is perfectly easy to show, you simply have the ship fire, then in a separate scene you see the weapons hit. It might not be as aesthetically pleasing for some people, but there's no reason that the producers of Star Trek couldn't show BVR combat if they wanted to. Given that they ignored this option, the obvious conclusion is that they did not want to show BVR combat.
yes, because it'd be boring as hell, and defeats the purpose of showing any combat scenes in the first place, which is not how you make TV shows or movies.
Merin Ryskin wrote:As for the crew, just ask yourself this: if you had a video of someone telling you that they're standing 100 miles away from their friend, who is visible and standing right next to them, would you believe the visuals or the dialogue? It's the same for Star Trek. The canon TV show very clearly portrays slow, visual range combat happening between ships crewed by ****ing idiots who are too stupid to know what range they're at.
Does this say some pretty bad things about Star Trek? Sure, but then again this is the show where the second-in-command of the Federation flagship gets his ship destroyed because he's too stupid to simply return fire and blow away a 100+ year old Bird of Prey that Kirk, ~100 years earlier, outgunned 10:1. Incompetence is pretty much the defining theme of the military in Star Trek.
all I'm saying is that you guys are all cherry picking examples and which standards to apply and when to apply them. Ignoring the cinematic limitations placed upon ST is no better than ignoring gameplay limitations placed up on Eve. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
92
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Posted - 2012.06.18 08:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
Sobach wrote:yes, because it'd be boring as hell, and defeats the purpose of showing any combat scenes in the first place, which is not how you make TV shows or movies.
So what you're saying is that the producers of Star Trek decided that their audience would rather see a low-power universe that looks good on screen than a high-power universe that is less visually interesting. That's a perfectly valid choice to make, but you can't just throw out the results because you want to pretend that Star Trek has better weapons.
Quote:Imagine how Top Gun would've turned out as a movie if they did the combat scenes like how it is in real life - ie. the main character lolpwnz0rs all the hostile fighters from 100+ miles away, game over.
Yeah, they would have had to make a plot (shocking) that wasn't just a flimsy excuse to show a bunch of combat scenes. And we all know that could never happen...
Quote:all I'm saying is that you guys are all cherry picking examples and which standards to apply and when to apply them.
No, I am consistently applying the canon policy as determined by the people who actually create Star Trek. The only possible reason to dispute what I'm saying is if you're a fanboy who can't stand the thought that Star Trek is on the far low end of science fiction military capability. |
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Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
43
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Posted - 2012.06.18 09:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:So what you're saying is that the producers of Star Trek decided that their audience would rather see a low-power universe that looks good on screen than a high-power universe that is less visually interesting. That's a perfectly valid choice to make, but you can't just throw out the results because you want to pretend that Star Trek has better weapons.
wrong, but good try at trying to paint me as a ST supporter here just because I disagree with the manner in which you guys were "debating". Like I said earlier, comparing the two is an exercise in futility, even more than the sheer inconsistency between what's shown on screen and what's said on screen in ST combat scenes, is the 238472903487 deus ex machinas that keeps getting pulled out of thin air all the time - what's the point of comparing who's guns are bigger if one side can just reverse the tachyon field and polarize some other stuff and implodes the universe? Not to mention you can't even compare who has the bigger gun, as the two universe works on fundamentally different physics.
Merin Ryskin wrote:Yeah, they would have had to make a plot (shocking) that wasn't just a flimsy excuse to show a bunch of combat scenes. And we all know that could never happen...
yea, way to deflect the point I was making, which is that all TV/Movies takes artistic licence with their action scenes.
Merin Ryskin wrote:No, I am consistently applying the canon policy as determined by the people who actually create Star Trek. The only possible reason to dispute what I'm saying is if you're a fanboy who can't stand the thought that Star Trek is on the far low end of science fiction military capability.
then you should apply the same standard to EVE, where the NPC ships have the tactical ability of about two neurons, all weapons fire will magically disappear after 250km, some weapon turrets couldn't track worth of **** for no apparent reason, and the fastest interceptor can't even match the orbiting speed of the space shuttle in normal flight. Oh, and planets don't actually orbit their suns, and a day doesn't even last one hour since the planets rotate so fast.
Oh, and for the record, I personally find Eve's technology to be more interesting and impressive, I'm just calling out the logical fallacies as I see them - you can't simply ignore the practical limitations on one side and not the other. It's especially ironic that you'd call me a ST fanboy when my original post is almost entirely against the ST crowd, yet because I called you out on the fact that you're using the same kind of fallacy as the ST crowd, I'm suddenly a ST fanboy? lol |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
43
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Posted - 2012.06.18 09:51:00 -
[162] - Quote
Debates like this can be good fun if both sides can remain genuine and not degenerate into fanboy bickering. But then I suppose it wouldn't be much of a debate as both sides would then realize it's like trying to figure out whether the apple or the orange would win in a wine tasting contest hosted by magical leprechauns.
Would phaser and photon torps even work in the aether-filled universe of EVE? how would EVE's weapon fare against the Plot-Armored ST ships? maybe they'll be flagged as being invulnerable LOCs? |
Unimaginative Guy
Daralux SpaceMonkey's Alliance
18
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Posted - 2012.06.26 02:28:00 -
[163] - Quote
You guys are forgetting, in Star Treck they'll probobly engage within sight range or a few hundred Kilometers at most.
Eve outnumbers.
Eve ships are f*cking ginormous compared to ST ones. I think you could fit 10 enterprises in a drake.
Eve has enough numbers to just blow up every federation planet.
Oh and even if the 'warpable torpedos" one shot eve ships, eve has more ships than they have torpedos lol |
Mercurye
Siesta Inc.
38
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:20:00 -
[164] - Quote
Unimaginative Guy wrote:You guys are forgetting, in Star Treck they'll probobly engage within sight range or a few hundred Kilometers at most.
Eve outnumbers.
Eve ships are f*cking ginormous compared to ST ones. I think you could fit 10 enterprises in a drake.
Eve has enough numbers to just blow up every federation planet.
Oh and even if the 'warpable torpedos" one shot eve ships, eve has more ships than they have torpedos lol
Wut?
I doubt you can even fit more than a few Constitutions in a Drake, let alone Excelsior and upwards
It's just...EVE ships grow in size exponentionally compared to the ST ships (That generally stay in the cruiser/battlecruiser classes anway, I guess you could consider the Whale Ship and the V'ger as some sort of Titan/Mothership size wise) |
Mercurye
Siesta Inc.
38
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:22:00 -
[165] - Quote
Sobach wrote:Debates like this can be good fun if both sides can remain genuine and not degenerate into fanboy bickering. But then I suppose it wouldn't be much of a debate as both sides would then realize it's like trying to figure out whether the apple or the orange would win in a wine tasting contest hosted by magical leprechauns.
Would phaser and photon torps even work in the aether-filled universe of EVE? how would EVE's weapon fare against the Plot-Armored ST ships? maybe they'll be flagged as being invulnerable LOCs?
That's how I feel in general! :)
*curls up in a ball..of hope* |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
132
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Posted - 2012.06.26 10:59:00 -
[166] - Quote
Unimaginative Guy wrote:You guys are forgetting, in Star Treck they'll probobly engage within sight range or a few hundred Kilometers at most.
Eve outnumbers.
Eve ships are f*cking ginormous compared to ST ones. I think you could fit 10 enterprises in a drake.
Eve has enough numbers to just blow up every federation planet.
Oh and even if the 'warpable torpedos" one shot eve ships, eve has more ships than they have torpedos lol
EVE battlecruisers like the Enterprise D/E and the Constitution are all 800m to 1000m long - Roughly the same size as EVE battleships. A drake is roughly the same size as the original Enterprise, around 300m. |
Mercurye
Siesta Inc.
38
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Posted - 2012.06.26 11:54:00 -
[167] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Unimaginative Guy wrote:You guys are forgetting, in Star Treck they'll probobly engage within sight range or a few hundred Kilometers at most.
Eve outnumbers.
Eve ships are f*cking ginormous compared to ST ones. I think you could fit 10 enterprises in a drake.
Eve has enough numbers to just blow up every federation planet.
Oh and even if the 'warpable torpedos" one shot eve ships, eve has more ships than they have torpedos lol EVE battlecruisers like the Enterprise D/E and the Constitution are all 800m to 1000m long - Roughly the same size as EVE battleships. A drake is roughly the same size as the original Enterprise, around 300m.
Well they arent really BC's as we know them in EVE...atleast not the Federation cruisers; they're more aimed at exploration, science and self-defense. Klingon cruisers however...
And none of them are 800m + either :P (A Galaxy class is at +/-650m) The Consitution class is the original -TOS- Enterprise by the way, the refit is the Enterprise B
PS: Envious of your portrait, pretty, well done ^^ :) |
Jayarr Altol
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
1
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Posted - 2012.06.27 09:18:00 -
[168] - Quote
Concord Deathray. That is all. |
baltec1
1555
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 00:36:00 -
[169] - Quote
This thing is relevent |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
16
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Posted - 2012.06.28 01:48:00 -
[170] - Quote
the defiant could certainly kick some ass, but it was a good show of what happens when the Federation actually focuses on warfare.
That romulan ship from Star Trek Nemisis would suck to fight in EVE, it can shoot while cloaked! |
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leviticus ander
CATO.nss
185
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Posted - 2012.06.28 05:51:00 -
[171] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:the defiant could certainly kick some ass, but it was a good show of what happens when the Federation actually focuses on warfare.
That romulan ship from Star Trek Nemisis would suck to fight in EVE, it can shoot while cloaked! smart bombs and the titan AOE DD. it existed before, so the tech is clearly in the eve galaxy meaning they could bring it back for the fight if needed. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
201
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Posted - 2012.06.28 07:50:00 -
[172] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:the defiant could certainly kick some ass, but it was a good show of what happens when the Federation actually focuses on warfare.
That romulan ship from Star Trek Nemisis would suck to fight in EVE, it can shoot while cloaked! Also Romulans and the Federation both have phasic cloaks, not only making them completely undetectable, but also giving them the ability to pass through solid matter.
They could for instance carve the top off a mountain, install a phasic cloak and a power generator in the multi-billion tonne piece of rock they now have, and then simply throw it at a titan and disengage the cloak when the titan and the rock are occupying the same area of space. Boom.
Beats a DD any day.
EDIT: I so don't have an opinion on EVE vs ST, just saw an episode of ST last night that had phasic cloaks in it ^^ There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
16
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Posted - 2012.06.28 13:14:00 -
[173] - Quote
dont forget, Good luck warp scrambling a federation ship. those engineers would just bounce a tachyon beam off a graviton emitter and cancel out the warp scramble field while causing the offending frigate to explode from the power backlash.
There is one scifi ship that I know could likely take on a Titan and its support fleet head on....
the city of Atlanis with a full rack of ZPMs and a full storage bay of those ancient drones.(though that is Stargate, not Startrek) |
Demonthese2211
C.R.S. GekkoState.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.29 04:09:00 -
[174] - Quote
icantseeshidtcaptain wrote:that is a shame - I always found it strange that the eve ships don't move much faster than airliners, despite being in space.......
I'm assuming for gameplay reasons but the EVE physics model is not based on space. The physics model bases movement and the like off of a fluid model, basically we do not fly internet spaceships. We more accurately fly internet submarines.
Same as above weapon ranges/damage/other stuff is all balanced around gameplay an not realism. It would be interesting if CCP made some sort of accurate analysis for weapons/ships. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
19
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Posted - 2012.07.01 04:20:00 -
[175] - Quote
actually the big thing for trek ships would be against interceptors. seems since TNG on there is no such thing as tracking, the phasers seem to shoot in any direction the plot requires them to.
This brings up an interesting question.... could an EM and Thermal tanked drake permatank the entire star trek fleet? okay yea bad question, a properly setup drake could probally eat the super laser from the Death Star in Star Wars. |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
186
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Posted - 2012.07.01 07:47:00 -
[176] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote: This brings up an interesting question.... could an EM and Thermal tanked drake permatank the entire star trek fleet? okay yea bad question, a properly setup drake could probally eat the super laser from the Death Star in Star Wars.
"FIRE!!" *BWWWAAAAAAAAMMM* "I think we charred some of the armor this time, better charge it back up again" |
Arkturus McFadden
Sonoran Shadow Black Mesa Complex
55
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Posted - 2012.07.01 13:48:00 -
[177] - Quote
I think the Gallente, Minmatar, Amarr, Caldari ships stand no chance against Star Trek era ships.
BUT..
Jovians and Sleepers? I think they'd fair just fine in a "Star Trek" type setting. I mean..Sleeper maintenance drones destroy the best variants of our combat ships.. imagine what military grade technology could do! |
baltec1
1574
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 16:31:00 -
[178] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Viktor Fyretracker wrote:the defiant could certainly kick some ass, but it was a good show of what happens when the Federation actually focuses on warfare.
That romulan ship from Star Trek Nemisis would suck to fight in EVE, it can shoot while cloaked! Also Romulans and the Federation both have phasic cloaks, not only making them completely undetectable, but also giving them the ability to pass through solid matter. They could for instance carve the top off a mountain, install a phasic cloak and a power generator in the multi-billion tonne piece of rock they now have, and then simply throw it at a titan and disengage the cloak when the titan and the rock are occupying the same area of space. Boom. Beats a DD any day. EDIT: I so don't have an opinion on EVE vs ST, just saw an episode of ST last night that had phasic cloaks in it ^^
EVE ships warp through planets without a cloak |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
186
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Posted - 2012.07.02 01:31:00 -
[179] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:Viktor Fyretracker wrote:the defiant could certainly kick some ass, but it was a good show of what happens when the Federation actually focuses on warfare.
That romulan ship from Star Trek Nemisis would suck to fight in EVE, it can shoot while cloaked! Also Romulans and the Federation both have phasic cloaks, not only making them completely undetectable, but also giving them the ability to pass through solid matter. They could for instance carve the top off a mountain, install a phasic cloak and a power generator in the multi-billion tonne piece of rock they now have, and then simply throw it at a titan and disengage the cloak when the titan and the rock are occupying the same area of space. Boom. Beats a DD any day. EDIT: I so don't have an opinion on EVE vs ST, just saw an episode of ST last night that had phasic cloaks in it ^^ EVE ships warp through planets without a cloak from what I've heard, they can fly through planets too without a cloak. it just takes a long time. |
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
0
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Posted - 2012.08.30 04:25:00 -
[180] - Quote
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/eve-online-vs-star-trek.232826/ |
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