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Reason Why Removing Local would not fix the null botting.

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Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 3090	Posted - 2012.02.06 08:44:00 - [1] - Quote They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again. That is all. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School 57	Posted - 2012.02.06 08:48:00 - [2] - Quote What if the only time you would show up on d-scan is when you are 24km away from them?
Xorv Questionable Acquisitions 80	Posted - 2012.02.06 08:52:00 - [3] - Quote DScan doesn't give as much information and doesn't distinguish between friendlies and neutrals/hostiles and has a limited range. It wouldn't necessarily stop botting but it would make it harder. CCP could also add random false positives to DScan and keep everyone on edge, and bots inactive. ..(edit) also cloaked ships don't show up on DScan. ..not sure how I left that one out, because it alone would make botters lives miserable. Anyway, there's more reasons to remove Local Chat intel than just addressing bots, as far as I'm concerned that would just be a bonus side effect not the purpose of removing Local Intel.
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 1377	Posted - 2012.02.06 08:55:00 - [4] - Quote The real reason removing local is a terrible idea is that Null Income for real players is based on Anomalies which do not require probes to find. WHs work without local because: 1) The income is higher 2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox. 5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 324	Posted - 2012.02.06 09:17:00 - [5] - Quote no man ask any guy who lives in a wormhole pressing d-scan is the ultimate in player skill
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 324	Posted - 2012.02.06 09:18:00 - [6] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: The real reason removing local is a terrible idea is that Null Income for real players is based on Anomalies which do not require probes to find. WHs work without local because: 1) The income is higher 2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan 3) mass limitations 4) no cynos 5) can destroy entry point with use of large ships once a hostile is detected
baltec1 553	Posted - 2012.02.06 09:40:00 - [7] - Quote My bomber laughs at you.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 73	Posted - 2012.02.06 09:45:00 - [8] - Quote This like most things is an after thought. Had it been considered 6 years ago they could have made local like wormholes where you arent in local untill you speak up and that feature goes away as soon as you add an outpost to the system. Null sec would look much different than it does now had that been done. It's always easier to look back and say what should be and should have been done different. Doing anything to local now would be huge, much bigger than anyone can predict. As for bots, that was never a part of local debates but they didnt build EVE to be anti bot, they built it to be played. Bots were built based on what was given to them. It didn't matter what CCP did, the bots would have adapted.
Bubanni SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353 78	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:12:00 - [9] - Quote people who want local removed should just move into a wormhole and stfu local information is also vital for people who actually wants to pvp, used for hunting targets, specially for chasing someone through several systems...! unless CCP drasticly improves Dscan. removes cloaking, and much more, local should remain in non wormhole space
I'thari 54	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:19:00 - [10] - Quote I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system...

Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx 231	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:25:00 - [11] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again. That is all. It's pretty clear the the current d-scan needs to be reworked for delayed local. This is stated in pretty much every topic advocating delayed local. For example, my preference for the new d-scan would be to have the auto passive and the manual active modes (with some range and detectability tradeoffs for both), where the liberal use of the active scanner would tun your ship into a warpable signature.
Honnete Du Decimer 40	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:26:00 - [12] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: 2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan Combat site - no need D-scan give most ISK. D-scan horrible. Press many many time. So broken, only crazy game make player do like this. Then they have cloak Warp To. PMS
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 1379	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:36:00 - [13] - Quote Honnete Du Decimer wrote: RubyPorto wrote: 2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan Combat site - no need D-scan give most ISK. Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space. I swear, I think you're English is steadily worsening. I could've sworn you were able to use definite articles not two days ago. And parse-able sentence structures yesterday. Quote: D-scan horrible. Press many many time. So broken, only crazy game make player do like this. Then they have cloak Warp To. Yeah. That was part of my point... and then what's this about cloaked warp ins? That's why you've been d-scanning for probes this whole time. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox. 5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes.
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx 231	Posted - 2012.02.06 12:37:00 - [14] - Quote I'thari wrote: I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system... So, the GM client couldn't possibly request this info from the server?
Buruk Utama Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:03:00 - [15] - Quote I'thari wrote: I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system... Pretty much this. Bots monitor the data coming into the client and when someone enters the system your client is forcefully updated. The bots recognize this signature change and therefore know immediately that someone came into system and to dock up or start their friend/foe subroutine before docking up.
seany1212 eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred 80	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:32:00 - [16] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space. . lol, you're doing it wrong. No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1942	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:36:00 - [17] - Quote seany1212 wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space. . lol, you're doing it wrong. No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard lmao you think people mine in nullsec like peasants you're dumb andski for csm7~
Honnete Du Decimer 40	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:37:00 - [18] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space. I swear, I think you're English is steadily worsening. I could've sworn you were able to use definite articles not two days ago. And parse-able sentence structures yesterday. Combat site - do many with dedicate salvage ship. English - I am in work. Less time check and think. RubyPorto wrote: Yeah. That was part of my point... and then what's this about cloaked warp ins? That's why you've been d-scanning for probes this whole time. Scan many worm hole before people are log on. Catch in combat site. Only chance see come is time for enemy warp. PMS
seany1212 eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred 80	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:44:00 - [19] - Quote Andski wrote: seany1212 wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space. . lol, you're doing it wrong. No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard lmao you think people mine in nullsec like peasants you're dumb mine hulls, duhhh
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx 231	Posted - 2012.02.06 13:46:00 - [20] - Quote Buruk Utama wrote: I'thari wrote: I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system... Pretty much this. Bots monitor the data coming into the client and when someone enters the system your client is forcefully updated. The bots recognize this signature change and therefore know immediately that someone came into system and to dock up or start their friend/foe subroutine before docking up. You don't get the point because you are too stupid. No biggie, here it is simplified: bots detect changes in system population because we have instant local. Hope that helps.

Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 3092	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:08:00 - [21] - Quote Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant. I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots. Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha t one instance you pop up on overview, boom they're gone. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx 231	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:14:00 - [22] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant. I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots. Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone. IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented.
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 3092	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:17:00 - [23] - Quote Razin wrote: Nova Fox wrote: Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant. I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots. Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone. IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented. Agreed but if they keep it the same, the status quo is almost not going to change that much. And killing one of them isnt going to do much to stop them as on person stated, say hi to my bomber and Im like dude you need an entire wing of bombers and chances are not all of the bots are in the same area. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
seany1212 eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred 81	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:41:00 - [24] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: Razin wrote: Nova Fox wrote: Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant. I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots. Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone. IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented. Agreed but if they keep it the same, the status quo is almost not going to change that much. And killing one of them isnt going to do much to stop them as on person stated, say hi to my bomber and Im like dude you need an entire wing of bombers and chances are not all of the bots are in the same area. Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1946	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:45:00 - [25] - Quote seany1212 wrote: Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters andski for csm7~
seany1212 eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred 81	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:53:00 - [26] - Quote Andski wrote: seany1212 wrote: Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all
Serene Repose Perkone Caldari State 218	Posted - 2012.02.06 15:59:00 - [27] - Quote Reason why people want local removed....so you can't SEE them. Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1946	Posted - 2012.02.06 16:40:00 - [28] - Quote seany1212 wrote: Andski wrote: seany1212 wrote: Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all instant local is a two-way street nobody uses cloaky nullified t3s to rat cripes stop being dumb andski for csm7~
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 3092	Posted - 2012.02.06 16:54:00 - [29] - Quote Andski wrote: seany1212 wrote: Andski wrote: seany1212 wrote: Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all instant local is a two-way street nobody uses cloaky nullified t3s to rat cripes stop being dumb are bots people too? Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1946	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:20:00 - [30] - Quote Nova Fox wrote: are bots people too? that's one hell of an existential question andski for csm7~



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