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Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.03 14:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Mrski Okupator Originally by: Kagura Nikon tempest 1 5% PG implant 1 PDS 2 Gyro II 2 Track Enhancer 1 DC II 1 Track Comp 1 MWD I 2 SB II 1 T2 hardener 6x1400mm II Can tank any DD by selectign the hardeners excet a level 5 Erebus pilot Next myth please? Both tempest and mega can do it. ROFL @ selecting hardeners. When exactly are you gonna do that? And can tank all 3 titans! You disprove your own point. And I didn't even mention the implant. I got hit by several titans already. Never lost my tempest. Simply using your brain is enough, also carriers in your fleet are good for somethign lese than assign fighters. Its not my fautl if some people are too chalanged to be able to use the capabilities their ships present them. I never said anythign about tanking double DD! I was sayign Amamr BS cannot fit Tachyons MWD and tankfor 1 DD. Simple.. people are spinning into soemthign completely different. Being able to tank DD is as important as MWD for fleet combat n owaday. In fact DD tak saved me FAR more times than MWD. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.03 15:35:00 - [32] Edited by: Mrski Okupator on 03/01/2008 15:41:08 With 2xRCU2, 1 eanm2 and 1 dc2 an abaddon can fit 8x tachyon2 + mwd +heavy cap booster and has 78k effective hp. No implants. So that's 8x tachy2 2xsb, mwd, hvy electrochem cap inj. dc2, eanm2, 2x rcu2, 3x te2. 168km optimal, over 400 dps, 78k hp. It only fires for 3 mins or so. And taht's with ccc rigs. Just saying it can be done, not that I fit it like that. I rather use 7 tachys and put a plate or cpr2 on it instead of the second rcu, depending on the situation. edit: forgot: a dc2 and a plate is even better. 82k hp. And it pwns my coprmates malestorm and tempest. But can't hurt a rokh. That is one hard nut. ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:12:00 - [33] Multiplayer setup 7x Tachy2, 1x Large Energy Transfer Array II 2x TC2, 2x SB2 2x HS2, 1x TE2, 1x RCU2, 1600mm RT, DC II, 1x ANPII 3x Trimark 168km, 300dps, DD safe all around, runs forever with another Apoc, 10 minutes with no other apoc starting with full cap. No mwd, but can't have everything.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:18:00 - [34] Originally by: Mrski Okupator And it's a tier 2 bs, so why shouldn't it be better then a domi? But since we all know it's just not gonna happen; 7/5/7 layout. 6 launchers, 0 turrets. 250m3 dronebay, 125mBit 20% tracking disruptor range & effectiveness (or the current cap bonus) 10% drone dmg and hp. Now that's a ship I'd train missiles for. I guess it's my turn to say LOL now. Your suggestion is no better, maybe even worse then the OP. Yeah, no kidding you'd train missiles. And I'd train Amarr BS 5 for that too. Galllente are suppposed to be the Drone Race, remember? Since Gal are no longer the gank race, can they at least be the drone race, or should they loose that too? You really want to completely and utterly outclass the Domi? I bet you do, but that means you have no perspective. And it's not that it can't be better, but be reasonable. You not only want a great PvP boat, you also essentially want to make a tier 2 Amarr BS equal or better then a CNR for most PvE. (Who cares about PvE? 70% of the playerbase, that's who. (Random stat read on the forums, not stating it as fact)) Somebody had a funny quote about Amarr not being crazy, but you guys are trying to prove him/her wrong.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:41:00 - [35] 6 unbonused launcher bays and a tracking disruptor bonus hardly makes uber PvE. The drones help, but in the same way they do on a raven. Killing small stuff. But yes, it would rock in pvp. OTOH, since I do have a gallente drone***** alt, I would be fine with the following: 7/4/8 6 launchers. 5% cap, 5% missile dmg per level. A big arsed Sacrelige. Sweet. ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Isan Danderoda Strix Armaments and Defence Acheron Federation	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:51:00 - [36] Launchers + drones = uber. Granted I'm skilled in both and I'd love it, but honestly I think that's just a bit over the top. I keep thinking back to the days when the apoc was a complete terror and ask myself what the heck happened to it.
Jim Steele Dead By Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:05:00 - [37] Id probably go with +7.5% Armour resists or -10% LAR duration bonus with the same cap bonus, Mabye a 4/4 missile and turret combination on the high slots to avoid blaster setups Gives plenty of flexibility, would make it hard as nails but pathetic dot. Jim Author of "The Apoc Guide"
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:14:00 - [38] Originally by: Liang Nuren *Special Abilities: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and range per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage per level, and mining yield per level* -Liang A mining BS designed to mine...I sure do hope your Apoc doesn't see this or it will go Christine* on you. Christine as in the Steven King Book. ________________________ Originally by:* CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:56:00 - [39] Edited by: Qui Shon on 03/01/2008 17:57:20 Originally by: Mrski Okupator 6 unbonused launcher bays and a tracking disruptor bonus hardly makes uber PvE. The drones help, but in the same way they do on a raven. Killing small stuff. Huh? "help with killing small stuff"? You don't PvE much with your Gallente dude eh? Or are you joking? In my Domi, I get 538 thermal drone dps, unaffected by any EW ("fof capability"), with 45km optimal, 0.0565 tracking. Or 403 Kinetic dps at 113km optimal, kin being the lowest dps type. That requires two sentry dmg rigs, but it's not hard to make that work. Guns on top of that, but guns are always secondary damage dealers, just as the launchers would be. Unbonused Cruise launchers with 2x BCU are basically 50 dps a piece. Max skilled, unbonused Javelin torps, range capped at well below 30km (since you do not hit with missiles at theoretical max range) come in at about 75dps, but anything capped at 30km range doesn't really matter for this. So those cruise launchers are ~300dps of your chosen type, at all PvE ranges, with 2x BCU, added ontop of the drones 400-540. Cruise CNR is only 660-690dps (Valk-Hammers) with 3x CN BCU, 7x CN launchers, or up to 725 with a 425mm rail on top. Dropping down below 600 when using FOF's. You had "or original cap bonus" in your proposal. For most PvE setups, that cap bonus is in some respects better then +1 low (CPR), significantly better then +1 mid (CR). Much like a 25% dmg bonus is roughly equivalent with a faction BCU/MagStab, main difference being it's not stacking nerfed. Rat resistances differ so much, a 100% selectable damage type Domi would be the nbermobile of PvE. Laserboats could outdo it for EM weak rats, but the CNR would be outdone for the majority of rat popping excercises. Torp CNR is still possible, and really good, but only effective in a small percentage of PvE. You need BS 5, Miss Proj 5, Launcher rigging 4, and preferrably T2 rigs to have an acceptable amount of situations where it's effective though. Quote: 7/4/8 6 launchers. 5% cap, 5% missile dmg per level. Now that's a setup that's usable but not overpowered. Give the Amarr a way to deal other types of (BS level) damage then just EM/Therm. But what to do with all those lowslots and all that cap, now that weapons don't need it. PvP benefits?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it. Um, no, it doesn't "make you think". The only thing that "makes you think" about it is that someone suggested such an abomination to start with. A full slot layout as a drone boat? Hell even the Dominix only has 6 highs and is powergrid gimped to hell and back. I'd be a fan of a 6/6/6 battleship sized Arbitrator though. ;-) *Special Abilities: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and range per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage per level, and mining yield per level* -Liang Yeah lets make the apoc a large arbi/pilgrim AFTER nos/drones scoop/TDs got nerfed. Yeah youd like that wouldnt you? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

Hyakuchan Earth Federation Space Force	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:14:00 - [41] Edited by: Hyakuchan on 03/01/2008 18:16:00 Originally by: Isan Danderoda I keep thinking back to the days when the apoc was a complete terror and ask myself what the heck happened to it. Nothing. That's the problem. The Apoc, by its nature, starts out strong. It approaches the limit of its capabilities with a smaller set of skills. But as people develop skills further, the other designs pull ahead. The Apoc didn't change, it just got left out of the rain. Boosting CPU, PG, and Cap could bring it into parity with other gunboats; but personally I think it would be easier to simply slash the bill of materials dramatically. Instead of changing the Apoc's combat capacity, just change the cost to build it. Whack 10-15 million off the price of materials so it falls in between the Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships. That's an easier fix that achieves balance without risking imbalance. Make it cheaper to reflect its inadequacies. If making the Apoc dangerous is too problematic, just make it disposable.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Hyakuchan Edited by: Hyakuchan on 03/01/2008 18:23:26 Originally by: Isan Danderoda I keep thinking back to the days when the apoc was a complete terror and ask myself what the heck happened to it. Nothing. That's the problem. The Apoc, by its nature, starts out strong. It approaches the limit of its capabilities with a smaller set of skills. But as people develop skills further, the other designs pull ahead. The Apoc didn't change, it just got left out of the rain. Boosting CPU, PG, and Cap could bring it into parity with other gunboats; but personally I think it would be easier to simply slash the bill of materials dramatically. Instead of changing the Apoc's combat capacity, just change the cost to build it. Whack 20 million off the price of materials so it falls in between the Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships. That's an easier fix that achieves balance without risking imbalance. Make it cheaper to reflect its inadequacies. If making the Apoc dangerous is too problematic, just make it disposable. Think about it: The disposable Apoc. Easy to skill, cheap to build... if you could build 3 Apocs for the price of 2 Megas, would people use the Apoc? Not always, no, but some would. Money for a T1 BS that is insurable is not a problem for the majority. No thanks, we would much rather have a equally powerful tier2 BS like everyone else mkay? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Hyakuchan Earth Federation Space Force	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Money for a T1 BS that is insurable is not a problem for the majority. No thanks, we would much rather have a equally powerful tier2 BS like everyone else mkay? People have been asking long enough that if they were going to do it, they'd have done it by now.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:35:00 - [44] Originally by: Hyakuchan Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Money for a T1 BS that is insurable is not a problem for the majority. No thanks, we would much rather have a equally powerful tier2 BS like everyone else mkay? People have been asking long enough that if they were going to do it, they'd have done it by now. I think the problem is that they are too lazy to even look at it, so your change wont happen either. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
shismo	Posted - 2008.01.03 19:00:00 - [45] Role bonus - 50% less damage/second to modules from overloading 25% increased effectiveness of overloaded modules
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 19:04:00 - [46] Originally by: shismo Role bonus - 50% less damage/second to modules from overloading 25% increased effectiveness of overloaded modules No, overloading is way too high in skill progression tree for this ship. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Gibbal Slogspit Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:54:00 - [47] Seeing as my thread got locked for being a duplicate, heres my suggestion again. -7.5 reduction to cap recharge per level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal Merging both bonuses into one, and adding a useful bonus :)
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:04:00 - [48] I am a fan of giving the apoc an optimal range bonus...but even then i feel this is a short term fix. if you look at the big picture: caldari BS: ecm, missles, turrets gallente BS: drones, turrets, turrets minmitar BS: missles + drones + turrets(typhoon), turrets, turrets amarr BS: turrets, turrets, turrets It would be nice to have SOME variation there. Not sure how to achieve that without turning the apoc into a better domi or a better raven. I suppose you could give it a limited bonus, like drone damage bonus to only sentry drones, and an optimal range bonus. Course, you still have the cap use problem of lasers, which eats up a ship bonus in one form or another, which ends up making the amarr BSes all pretty much the same ship. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:13:00 - [49] make it into a typhoon or optimal bonus
Troezar	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:16:00 - [50] Just a thought but could the Apoc be given a nos bonus that removes some of the penalties that the nos changes brought in? Make the Apoc a nos specialist, maybe throw in a bit extra tracking to help the fewer turrets hit better?

Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:18:00 - [51] I'd say increase Tachyon PG by 1000 and damage modifier by 3. In the old days, running around with 4 Tacyhons was the win, 5 Tachyons was just wtf-pwn.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I never said anythign about tanking double DD! I was sayign Amamr BS cannot fit Tachyons MWD and tankfor 1 DD. Simple.. people are spinning into soemthign completely different. Being able to tank DD is as important as MWD for fleet combat n owaday. In fact DD tak saved me FAR more times than MWD. You really should think before accusing others of not being creative with fits. Abaddon: 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II MWD II Heavy Capacitor Booster II Sensor Booster II (targeting range) Tracking Computer II (optimal range) Reactor Control Unit II 2x Heat Sink II EANM II 2x Tracking Enhancer II Internal Force Field Array Ancillary Current Router I Ionic Field Projector I Trimark Armor Pump I Needs no implants. Survives any DD, even at level 5.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/01/2008 05:16:04 Originally by: Xequecal That's pretty goddamn broken. It's 900 DPS from just drones + siege launchers with 2 BCS, and that's 100% capless so you can easily shove 4 neuts on there and run them off an injector. Or you can add 4x whatever gun you want and do even higher DPS, while running a big tank at the same time because you're not using any cap. IMHO, a better setup is the same low/mid/dronebay layout as now, 6 high, 4 turret, 2 launchers, 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it. No, your ships arent broken, so stfu with all this whinage and train up the nessecairy skills to 4-5, just like anyone that wants to be good in a specefic ship. And hell yes, the setup mentioned above is overpowered. Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR!
Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:34:00 - [54] It does seem like continuing the khanid mark 2 line would make sense. A battleship sized Sacrilige would be very good - but then I'm Caldari so I have the missile skills already... Zarch AlDain
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Kagura Nikon I never said anythign about tanking double DD! I was sayign Amamr BS cannot fit Tachyons MWD and tankfor 1 DD. Simple.. people are spinning into soemthign completely different. Being able to tank DD is as important as MWD for fleet combat n owaday. In fact DD tak saved me FAR more times than MWD. You really should think before accusing others of not being creative with fits. Abaddon: 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II MWD II Heavy Capacitor Booster II Sensor Booster II (targeting range) Tracking Computer II (optimal range) Reactor Control Unit II 2x Heat Sink II EANM II 2x Tracking Enhancer II Internal Force Field Array Ancillary Current Router I Ionic Field Projector I Trimark Armor Pump I Needs no implants. Survives any DD, even at level 5. And you should learn to read. In my first post i sdaid. It cannot so it without using several rigs!! THe other BS can without ANY rig. LTR! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:50:00 - [56] Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15 The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15 The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without. i think the point is that without using rigs, abaddon needs 2 RCU t2s to fit the weapons, the mwd. To fit the DD tank, you need to drop a RCU for the grid increasing rig, something the mega doesnt need to do. you could say its more a problem with either the easy fittings on 425s, or the high fittings on tachs, more then the ships themselves. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.04 01:09:00 - [58] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15 The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without. i think the point is that without using rigs, abaddon needs 2 RCU t2s to fit the weapons, the mwd. To fit the DD tank, you need to drop a RCU for the grid increasing rig, something the mega doesnt need to do. you could say its more a problem with either the easy fittings on 425s, or the high fittings on tachs, more then the ships themselves. No, you don't. 8x Tachyon II MWD II Heavy Injector II 2x Sensor Booster II 3x TE II EANM II DCU II 2x RCU II You'll be deep into structure, but it survives level 5 DDs. If you put in a hull or armor HP implant a level 4 DD won't take you to 25% structure, so you won't risk losing mods.
source Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.04 02:02:00 - [59] Wow, this thread got off topic fast. Back on topic: I believe I speak for 90% of any Amarr pilot when I say give it missiles or give it Drones. Problem solved.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 02:04:00 - [60] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/01/2008 05:16:04 Originally by: Xequecal That's pretty goddamn broken. It's 900 DPS from just drones + siege launchers with 2 BCS, and that's 100% capless so you can easily shove 4 neuts on there and run them off an injector. Or you can add 4x whatever gun you want and do even higher DPS, while running a big tank at the same time because you're not using any cap. IMHO, a better setup is the same low/mid/dronebay layout as now, 6 high, 4 turret, 2 launchers, 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it. No, your ships arent broken, so stfu with all this whinage and train up the nessecairy skills to 4-5, just like anyone that wants to be good in a specefic ship. And hell yes, the setup mentioned above is overpowered. Lasers are broken. You just have no clue. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice



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