Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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The easiest way to give apoc a role is buff his fittings. So it can fit Tacnyons more or less easily. Then it would be a good fleet ship (taht can fire far longer than abaddon

Would even risk to say Downgrade droneband to 25m TTO be sure it sucks close range. Then give enough PG and CPU to fit 8 Tachyons without any fittign mods. Done a specific role well covered.

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Originally by: Xequecal

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That's pretty goddamn broken. It's 900 DPS from just drones + siege launchers with 2 BCS, and that's 100% capless so you can easily shove 4 neuts on there and run them off an injector. Or you can add 4x whatever gun you want and do even higher DPS, while running a big tank at the same time because you're not using any cap.

IMHO, a better setup is the same low/mid/dronebay layout as now, 6 high, 4 turret, 2 launchers, 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level.

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Originally by: Daqinson

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use the apoc as a fleet setup. Fit 8 500w infectious and watch your enemies cower as their cap goes from full to dead empty in a matter of seconds.

perfect for any small gang or fleet

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it.

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Originally by: "QProQ"

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When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Neut boat is not a role, not unless the apoc gets a neut bonus.

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Neut boat is not a role, not unless the apoc gets a neut bonus.

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Cap bonus = neut bonus tbh, only much better since you can use it for other things too.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Raekone

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Neut boat is not a role, not unless the apoc gets a neut bonus.

---

Cap bonus = neut bonus tbh, only much better since you can use it for other things too.

---

Which is bull**** because all neut boats rely on cap boosters, and the measly 20% or whatever cap difference between an apoc and a tier 3 BS means the apoc uses 1 less 800 charge, its basically a 32 m3 cargo space bonus.

Might as well be +8m3 cargo space per level, thats about how useful it is on a neut boat.

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Originally by: Rialtor

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Edited by: Rialtor on 02/01/2008 18:38:16

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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The easiest way to give apoc a role is buff his fittings. So it can fit Tacnyons more or less easily. Then it would be a good fleet ship (taht can fire far longer than abaddon

Would even risk to say Downgrade droneband to 25m TTO be sure it sucks close range. Then give enough PG and CPU to fit 8 Tachyons without any fittign mods. Done a specific role well covered.

---

It's faulty to have 3 gunships at the BS level. I mean how diverse can gunships be, it needs a newer role than just fleet sniper. The abaddon and geddon are already capable at fleet. No one (as far as I know) is complaining about Amarrian fleet capability anyway.

Change it's role to another Amarrian Playstyle (arbitrator/curse/pilgrim or Sacrilege/Khanidish)

I'd be happy if they take away the laser cap bonus and give it a nos/neut range bonus.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Neut boat is not a role, not unless the apoc gets a neut bonus.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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A full slot layout as a drone boat? Hell even the Dominix only has 6 highs and is powergrid gimped to hell and back.

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Originally by: Teani

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Edited by: Teani on 03/01/2008 11:14:29
You cant fit 425mm s mwd and a DD tank and a mega or 1400mm tempest without fitting mods or grid rigs AFAIK so dont moan

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Try to fit a full tachyon rack AN D MWD AND DD tank on an Ammar BS (no Mega Beams are NTO enough, not enough range).

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Originally by: Radeberger

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If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it.

---

Um, no, it doesn't "make you think". The only thing that "makes you think" about it is that someone suggested such an abomination to start with.

A full slot layout as a drone boat? Hell even the Dominix only has 6 highs and is powergrid gimped to hell and back.

I'd be a fan of a 6/6/6 battleship sized Arbitrator though. ;-)

Special Abilities: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and range per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage per level, and mining yield per level

-Liang

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Originally by: Vathar

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Try to fit a full tachyon rack AN D MWD AND DD tank on an Ammar BS (no Mega Beams are NTO enough, not enough range).

---

Implying that other tier2 Battleships can do it is nuts.

As a tempest pilot, I can tell you that you can't fit a rack of 1400mm, mwd and "DD tank" on a tempest without rigs (I'm not even sure that you can fit that with rigs)

the so called "DD tank" gimps a setup beyond reason, and is worthless as soon as anyone can field different titan types (yup, that includes the enemies we happen to be facing AND the titans we can field) so I don't even bother with that.

Plus there have been a few occurences of dual DD, and I'm not sure any fleet BS can withstand this!!

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Vathar

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Try to fit a full tachyon rack AN D MWD AND DD tank on an Ammar BS (no Mega Beams are NTO enough, not enough range).

---

Implying that other tier2 Battleships can do it is nuts.

As a tempest pilot, I can tell you that you can't fit a rack of 1400mm, mwd and "DD tank" on a tempest without rigs (I'm not even sure that you can fit that with rigs)

the so called "DD tank" gimps a setup beyond reason, and is worthless as soon as anyone can field different titan types (yup, that includes the enemies we happen to be facing AND the titans we can field) so I don't even bother with that.

Plus there have been a few occurences of dual DD, and I'm not sure any fleet BS can withstand this!!

---

tempest 1 5% PG implant 1 PDS 2 Gyro II 2 Track Enhancer 1 DC II 1 Track Comp 1 MWD I 2 SB II 1 T2 hardener 6x1400mm II

Can tank any DD by selectign the hardeners excet a level 5 Erebus pilot


Next myth please?



Both tempest and mega can do it.

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Originally by: Aieda

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Proposed Apoc:

Bonusses: 5% bonus to Capacitor capacity / level (unchanged)
10% bonus to Drone Damage and hitpoints

- Reduce Turret Hardpoints to 4
- Increase Launcher Hardpoints to 4
- Reduce Powergrid by ~1000 (roughly ... exact change would need to be balanced)
- Increase CPU by ~ 75 (same as PG )
- increase Drone bay to 375 m¦

Slot Layout: no change

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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tempest 1 5% PG implant 1 PDS 2 Gyro II 2 Track Enhancer 1 DC II 1 Track Comp 1 MWD I 2 SB II 1 T2 hardener 6x1400mm II

Can tank any DD by selectign the hardeners excet a level 5 Erebus pilot


Next myth please?



Both tempest and mega can do it.

---

Originally by: Mrski Okupator

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

tempest 1 5% PG implant 1 PDS 2 Gyro II 2 Track Enhancer 1 DC II 1 Track Comp 1 MWD I 2 SB II 1 T2 hardener 6x1400mm II

Can tank any DD by selectign the hardeners excet a level 5 Erebus pilot


Next myth please?



Both tempest and mega can do it.

---

ROFL @ selecting hardeners. When exactly are you gonna do that?

And can tank all 3 titans!

You disprove your own point. And I didn't even mention the implant.

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Originally by: Mrski Okupator

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And it's a tier 2 bs, so why shouldn't it be better then a domi?

But since we all know it's just not gonna happen;

7/5/7 layout.
6 launchers, 0 turrets.
250m3 dronebay, 125mBit

20% tracking disruptor range & effectiveness (or the current cap bonus)
10% drone dmg and hp.

Now that's a ship I'd train missiles for.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Special Abilities: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and range per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage per level, and mining yield per level

-Liang

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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Hah! Vengeance is sweet!

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Originally by: Mrski Okupator

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6 unbonused launcher bays and a tracking disruptor bonus hardly makes uber PvE. The drones help, but in the same way they do on a raven. Killing small stuff.

---

Quote:

---

7/4/8
6 launchers.
5% cap, 5% missile dmg per level.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it.

---

Um, no, it doesn't "make you think". The only thing that "makes you think" about it is that someone suggested such an abomination to start with.

A full slot layout as a drone boat? Hell even the Dominix only has 6 highs and is powergrid gimped to hell and back.

I'd be a fan of a 6/6/6 battleship sized Arbitrator though. ;-)

Special Abilities: 10% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and range per skill level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage per level, and mining yield per level

-Liang

---

Originally by: Isan Danderoda

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I keep thinking back to the days when the apoc was a complete terror and ask myself what the heck happened to it.

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Originally by: Hyakuchan

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Edited by: Hyakuchan on 03/01/2008 18:23:26

Originally by: Isan Danderoda

---

I keep thinking back to the days when the apoc was a complete terror and ask myself what the heck happened to it.

---

Nothing. That's the problem.

The Apoc, by its nature, starts out strong. It approaches the limit of its capabilities with a smaller set of skills. But as people develop skills further, the other designs pull ahead. The Apoc didn't change, it just got left out of the rain.

Boosting CPU, PG, and Cap could bring it into parity with other gunboats; but personally I think it would be easier to simply slash the bill of materials dramatically.

Instead of changing the Apoc's combat capacity, just change the cost to build it. Whack 20 million off the price of materials so it falls in between the Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships.

That's an easier fix that achieves balance without risking imbalance. Make it cheaper to reflect its inadequacies. If making the Apoc dangerous is too problematic, just make it disposable.


Think about it:
The disposable Apoc. Easy to skill, cheap to build... if you could build 3 Apocs for the price of 2 Megas, would people use the Apoc? Not always, no, but some would.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Money for a T1 BS that is insurable is not a problem for the majority. No thanks, we would much rather have a equally powerful tier2 BS like everyone else mkay?

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Originally by: Hyakuchan

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Money for a T1 BS that is insurable is not a problem for the majority. No thanks, we would much rather have a equally powerful tier2 BS like everyone else mkay?

---

People have been asking long enough that if they were going to do it, they'd have done it by now.

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Originally by: shismo

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Role bonus -
50% less damage/second to modules from overloading
25% increased effectiveness of overloaded modules

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Originally by: Snuggly

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It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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I never said anythign about tanking double DD! I was sayign Amamr BS cannot fit Tachyons MWD and tankfor 1 DD. Simple.. people are spinning into soemthign completely different. Being able to tank DD is as important as MWD for fleet combat n owaday. In fact DD tak saved me FAR more times than MWD.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/01/2008 05:16:04

Originally by: Xequecal

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That's pretty goddamn broken. It's 900 DPS from just drones + siege launchers with 2 BCS, and that's 100% capless so you can easily shove 4 neuts on there and run them off an injector. Or you can add 4x whatever gun you want and do even higher DPS, while running a big tank at the same time because you're not using any cap.

IMHO, a better setup is the same low/mid/dronebay layout as now, 6 high, 4 turret, 2 launchers, 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level.

---

So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it.

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Originally by: Xequecal

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

I never said anythign about tanking double DD! I was sayign Amamr BS cannot fit Tachyons MWD and tankfor 1 DD. Simple.. people are spinning into soemthign completely different. Being able to tank DD is as important as MWD for fleet combat n owaday. In fact DD tak saved me FAR more times than MWD.

---

You really should think before accusing others of not being creative with fits.

Abaddon:

8x Tachyon Beam Laser II

MWD II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II
Sensor Booster II (targeting range)
Tracking Computer II (optimal range)

Reactor Control Unit II
2x Heat Sink II
EANM II
2x Tracking Enhancer II
Internal Force Field Array

Ancillary Current Router I
Ionic Field Projector I
Trimark Armor Pump I

Needs no implants. Survives any DD, even at level 5.

---

Originally by: Xequecal

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Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15
The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without.

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Originally by: Snuggly

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It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!

---

Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn

---

Originally by: Xequecal

---

Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15
The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without.

---

i think the point is that without using rigs, abaddon needs 2 RCU t2s to fit the weapons, the mwd. To fit the DD tank, you need to drop a RCU for the grid increasing rig, something the mega doesnt need to do.

you could say its more a problem with either the easy fittings on 425s, or the high fittings on tachs, more then the ships themselves.

---

Originally by: arbalesttom

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/01/2008 05:16:04

Originally by: Xequecal

---

That's pretty goddamn broken. It's 900 DPS from just drones + siege launchers with 2 BCS, and that's 100% capless so you can easily shove 4 neuts on there and run them off an injector. Or you can add 4x whatever gun you want and do even higher DPS, while running a big tank at the same time because you're not using any cap.

IMHO, a better setup is the same low/mid/dronebay layout as now, 6 high, 4 turret, 2 launchers, 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level.

---

So you do understand how broken our ships are now. You give a broken amarr ship useful bonuses and bam its overpowered. Makes you think, doesnt it.

---

No, your ships arent broken, so stfu with all this whinage and train up the nessecairy skills to 4-5, just like anyone that wants to be good in a specefic ship. And hell yes, the setup mentioned above is overpowered.

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Originally by: Xequecal

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Lasers are slightly underpowered, but they're not broken. Especially not at the BS level.

---

Originally by: Aieda

---

That¦s exactly the same drone dps as the Dominix ( 125 Mbit bandwidth of course )

---

Originally by: Dracon Zethera

---

Edited by: Dracon Zethera on 04/01/2008 02:35:37

Originally by: Aieda

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That¦s exactly the same drone dps as the Dominix ( 125 Mbit bandwidth of course )

---

Then the dominix loses its role as being the BS droneboat, and that is the gallente's turf.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Dracon Zethera

---

Edited by: Dracon Zethera on 04/01/2008 02:35:37

Originally by: Aieda

---

That¦s exactly the same drone dps as the Dominix ( 125 Mbit bandwidth of course )

---

Then the dominix loses its role as being the BS droneboat, and that is the gallente's turf.

---

Which is utter bull****. What is Amarr's "turf" pray tell? What do they specialize at?

"Lasers" is not a specialization. Gallente specializes at drones and damage, Caldari range and the best EW in the game, minmatar speed. What exactly is amarr's role?

---

Originally by: Xequecal

---

Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn

---

Originally by: Xequecal

---

Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 22:50:15
The Abaddon can do it without rigs, you just have to cut heat sinks. Which is exactly what you have to do on, say, the Megathron if you want to DD tank without rigs. You have 11 low/mid slots available. DD tanking a Mega against all 4 DD without rigs requires 4 slots dedicated to that. You need 2 targeting range mods and 3 optimal range mods. Now you have 9. MWD is mod #10, and then you can either fit a Magstab or cap injector. Note that a Mega with a Magstab still does less DPS than an Abaddon without.

---

i think the point is that without using rigs, abaddon needs 2 RCU t2s to fit the weapons, the mwd. To fit the DD tank, you need to drop a RCU for the grid increasing rig, something the mega doesnt need to do.

you could say its more a problem with either the easy fittings on 425s, or the high fittings on tachs, more then the ships themselves.

---

No, you don't.

8x Tachyon II

MWD II
Heavy Injector II
2x Sensor Booster II

3x TE II
EANM II
DCU II
2x RCU II

You'll be deep into structure, but it survives level 5 DDs. If you put in a hull or armor HP implant a level 4 DD won't take you to 25% structure, so you won't risk losing mods.

---

Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

---

How come that most suggestion on Apoc changes are weapon changes. Either an 8 slot missile boat, half/half, drone boat.
Obviously shows laser weapons is the problem.

---

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

---

do you really want to be dependent on a cap injector when shooting at a pos/capships/fleet fight?

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

I think its pretty obvious that apoc needs to turn into a drone and/or missile and/or ew ship.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

Don't see why thats not a role and more than effective ship rather than complaining about cap use/fitting of tachy Abaddons that do 500 dps (50% more than other snipers).

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/01/2008 04:36:31

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

Don't see why thats not a role and more than effective ship rather than complaining about cap use/fitting of tachy Abaddons that do 500 dps (50% more than other snipers).

---

Because most of us arent sitting in sniper fleets all day long. Why would we want a BS that is subpar in every other way except with your change it will be a balanced sniper? If I have to snipe Ill get an abaddon. I mean the abaddon is the intended sniper. It has passive resist tank and damage bonus for high alpha.
Why should gallente get an excellent close range gank ship that is also a great sniper in fleets like the megathron but amarr will get a half assed tier 2 BS that can only snipe and thats it?
Id much rather have a khanid BS instead.

ps. besides its silly to have 3 laser pew pew battleships while everyone else has some flavor to their tiers.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 05/01/2008 05:22:28

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/01/2008 04:36:31

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

Don't see why thats not a role and more than effective ship rather than complaining about cap use/fitting of tachy Abaddons that do 500 dps (50% more than other snipers).

---

Because most of us arent sitting in sniper fleets all day long. Why would we want a BS that is subpar in every other way except with your change it will be a balanced sniper? If I have to snipe Ill get an abaddon. I mean the abaddon is the intended sniper. It has passive resist tank and damage bonus for high alpha.
Why should gallente get an excellent close range gank ship that is also a great sniper in fleets like the megathron but amarr will get a half assed tier 2 BS that can only snipe and thats it?
Id much rather have a khanid BS instead.

ps. besides its silly to have 3 laser pew pew battleships while everyone else has some flavor to their tiers.

---

Did you even think before you read and replied in 6 minutes? I love how you say we like you speak for all Amarr. For as many who don't sit in sniper fleets theres many who pretty much only use BS in sniper fleets.

Why is Abaddon intended sniper?

Resistance bonus is a racial tanking bonus, no where does it say resistance bonus = sniper. If it was the zealot not the sacrilage would get the resistance bonus, the proph would have dmg bonus and full rack of turrets. If resistance bonus = sniper than gallente and minmatar don't have snipers.

DMG bonus was orginally ROF bonus if you remember, but everyone wanted the lower cap use of DMG bonus. so if dmg bonus = sniper then the initial ccp design wasn't as a sniper as it started with rof.

I mean, CCP said Maelstrom is meant to be specifically a sniper (doesn't stop it being good close range ship) yet gave it an active tanking bonus... the gallente sniping ship doesn't get a defensive bonus at all. You're just putting a role on it and making up the reasons.

Don't you think giving it such high cap use was a feature to prevent it doing 500 dps from 160km with tachys when rest don't get over 350 (arty with less optimal, hybrids with more). Hell even pilots like Evil Thug say they use Apoc in fleet sniping so it can't be that bad at its job, improving it certainly wouldn't hurt that either.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

The geddon is still performing as a sniper because its cheap, its performing for no other reason, its low alpha, terrible cap[nearly as terrible as an Abaddon], low hit points, and the requirement to fit 3 RCUs for tachyons and 2 for Megabeams relegated it to people who wont shell out the initial investment for a sniping Abaddon. And it gets even worse if you dont have Amarr Battleship 5, which the Abaddon does not need due to it not having a cap bonus and the damage bonus being less effective the higher it gets while the RoF bonus getting more[7% dps difference becomes 9% and the cap advantage becomes nearly non-existant, especially since it cant fit an injector]

If the Apoc were able to fit Tachs, and MWD, and Plate without an RCU it would nearly be an excellent sniper, about as good as you can want.

168+25km, 400 DPS, great tracking, doesnt need to reload and has a huge capacitor to keep firing.

I say nearly because a Hyperion also does 400 dps but has a bunch more range[182+30 or something], and the fact that its tier 3 gives it more HP than the Apoc. It also has slightly better damage types.

An uber PG Apoc really wouldnt be that bad, and if i flew BS snipers, i would likely fly it over the higher damage Geddon or Abaddon because of its ability to keep firing and to fit without RCU IIs.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

I love how you say we like you speak for all Amarr. For as many who don't sit in sniper fleets theres many who pretty much only use BS in sniper fleets.

---

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

---

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/01/2008 09:08:25

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

I love how you say we like you speak for all Amarr. For as many who don't sit in sniper fleets theres many who pretty much only use BS in sniper fleets.

---

I think you need to do a serious reality check. The number of players who regularly engage in fleet fights is most definitely an insignificant portion of the total player base. I know it is hard to accept for the elitist PvPers, but the majority of people does NOT play the game your way.
And a ship dedicated to only fleet battles and nothing else does not fill a role. At best it fills a niche. And I really don't think one of the battleship tiers should be wasted on that. Maybe once we have 5-6 different battleships for each race, but not currently, when there are so many other obvious possibilities to fix the Apoc for normal players, not fleet masochists.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Xequecal

---

Lasers are slightly underpowered, but they're not broken. Especially not at the BS level.

---

You see, thats one of the broken things. If you make a weapon system that is ok on BS lvl but suck in mid and small lvl youre doing something wrong and something IS BROKEN. k?

---

Originally by: Daqinson

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Xequecal

---

Lasers are slightly underpowered, but they're not broken. Especially not at the BS level.

---

You see, thats one of the broken things. If you make a weapon system that is ok on BS lvl but suck in mid and small lvl youre doing something wrong and something IS BROKEN. k?

---

T2 Meds work beautifully on a BC such as the harbringer. i can tank a 3 BS spawn and destroy due to the damage produced, and the great tank ability!

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

1. so you agreed maelstroms active tanking bonus is stupid for a sniper?

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

2. nothing has changed to reduce lasers damage since abaddon was added and its rof was changed to dmg. abaddon was added long after any laser nerfs, compensation skills added or eanm boosts, your making up fictional reasoning.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

3. well how would you make the abaddon into a sustainable sniper that isn't overpowered with huge dps, nice alpha, awesome tracking and awesome effective hp with a nice range? theres a reason to make Apoc into the sniper as your suggesting changing the good ships to fill the role.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

4. DPS doesn't mean anything when in large numbers? yeah sure when my 1400's are reloading every 100 seconds and lasers fire 4 shots in that time plus there higher base damage anyway, it doesn't matter.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

6. Don't get why your so defensive about more fitting on the Apoc. Can fit pvp sniper without fitting mods and compete with maelstrom/megathron (neither getting resistances) and in close range could fit for missions say megabeams and a LAR thats easily sustainable.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

8. I just haven't heard a better idea on how to make geddon or abaddon a balanced sniper compared to making the apoc one.

---

Originally by: Marn Prestoc

---

7. I don't need a reality check thanks, you should use it yourself. I was told most bs pilots arn't sitting in sniper fleets, well thats pulling numbers from somewhere fictional, the number of pilots flying in big bs sniper gangs is quite clear so to say they're the minority (lol at amarr saying that) so shouldn't have a dedicated sniper design ship.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Replace cap bonus with optimal range bonus.

Bam, instantly useful, and not overpowered.

---

Originally by: Erim Solfara

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Replace cap bonus with optimal range bonus.

Bam, instantly useful, and not overpowered.

---

Agreed, OP's fix is horrible.

---

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Also I really don't think it can be that hard to fit a sustainable Abaddon or even current Apoc with Megabeams.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Some people need to get off their obsession with Tachyons, those are one tier higher than 425s and 1400s.

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Originally by: Wu Jiun

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Also I really don't think it can be that hard to fit a sustainable Abaddon or even current Apoc with Megabeams.

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Maybe i didn't check. However megabeams aren't sufficient rangewise for standard fleet fights.

I am not much of a fleet fighter obviously, but to me the range difference between Tachys and Megas always seemed insignificant. I only used Tachs for the damage, not the range.

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Some people need to get off their obsession with Tachyons, those are one tier higher than 425s and 1400s.

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Can you show me a dev quote which states this or are you just repeating what others have told you? Also, if you shouldn't even mount tachyons on our tier3 bs wtf are they any good for?

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Originally by: kessah

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The Apoc just needs this imho:

CPU increase *a big one*
Grid increase

larger drone bay (175m3 like the typhoon)

A naturally high cap capacitor it has with the bonus.

10% Laser opt range (or) 7.5% Tracking.
10% Laser cap use.

Its not a massive boost but it make the thing a beauty with Pulse lasers.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/01/2008 19:37:51
I am not much of a fleet fighter obviously, but to me the range difference between Tachys and Megas always seemed insignificant. I only used Tachs for the damage, not the range.

Quote:

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Some people need to get off their obsession with Tachyons, those are one tier higher than 425s and 1400s.

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Can you show me a dev quote which states this or are you just repeating what others have told you? Also, if you shouldn't even mount tachyons on our tier3 bs wtf are they any good for?

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It is as much hearsay as comparing the weapons. The stat difference between Megabeams and Tachys just dont fit into the other weapon differences between tier2 and tier3. It seems more that Amarr is missing tier2 and has tier 4 than them being 1, 2 and 3.

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Originally by: Sofring Eternus

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Tachyons have 25% more base damage than 425's and 48% better tracking.
Megathron with Battleship 5 gives 25% damage bonus and 37.5% better tracking.

This leaves the Tachyon penalties as:
300% capacitor consumption
92% of Optimal Penalty
83% of Falloff Penalty
25% Powergrid Penalty**

**Energy Turrets should use on average 115-120% of Hybrid Turret Powergrid when comparing Amarr/Gallente ships. Tachyons use an extra 25% ontop of that when compared to 425's.
IE: Hybrid*1.15*1.25=Tachyon

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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I am not much of a fleet fighter obviously, but to me the range difference between Tachys and Megas always seemed insignificant. I only used Tachs for the damage, not the range.

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Quote:

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It is as much hearsay as comparing the weapons. The stat difference between Megabeams and Tachys just dont fit into the other weapon differences between tier2 and tier3. It seems more that Amarr is missing tier2 and has tier 4 than them being 1, 2 and 3.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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What exactly do the Megathrons stats have to do with weapon tiers?
Taking your numbers at face value, we have Tachys with 25% more damage and 48% better tracking as advantages, and 8% optimal, 17% falloff and more cap need as drawbacks. At least to me the advantages clearly outweigh the drawbacks and their sheer scale suggests a higher tier to me. The high PG reqs also point at a higher weapon tier.

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Originally by: source

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Maybe a nod or something from a dev either saying that you are, or aren't going to change the apoc anytime soon would be GREATLY appreciated.

It appears that everyone here agrees the apoc needs some sort of a 'role', whether it is a Optimal/Drone/Missile bonus. Give us SOMETHING!!!!

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Originally by: kessah

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The Apoc just needs this imho:

CPU increase
Grid increase

larger drone bay (175m3 like the typhoon)

A naturally high cap capacitor it has with the bonus.

10% Laser opt range (or) 7.5% Tracking.
10% Laser cap use.

Its not a massive boost but it make the thing a beauty with Pulse lasers.

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Originally by: Aieda

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As everyone will propably agree the Apoc is right now in severe need of some love.

In my Opinion the ship needs a complete change in its role ( atm it really doesn¦t have one ), so why not change it into a Drone Carrier!

Proposed Apoc:

Bonusses: 5% bonus to Capacitor capacity / level (unchanged)
10% bonus to Drone Damage and hitpoints

- Reduce Turret Hardpoints to 4
- Increase Launcher Hardpoints to 4
- Reduce Powergrid by ~1000 (roughly ... exact change would need to be balanced)
- Increase CPU by ~ 75 (same as PG )
- increase Drone bay to 375 m¦

Slot Layout: no change

So what would this accomplish ?
The Ship would be very good at utilizing Energy Neuts (with the Cap Bonus)and with the 7 lows a very good armor tank, but would do less damage than let¦s say a Blaster Dominix no matter how you fit it.
The additional Launcher Hardpoints would provide more flexibility in pve.
The Neutralizing Drone ship is also very much in line with the Sentinel, Arbitrator and Curse line of Amarr ships.

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