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Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:53:00 - [1] Although a bit late perhaps, i would like to thank you for 2007. You've brought us numerous additions to the game which, while often received sceptical at first, turned out to be quite likable in the end. To mention a few: Exploration, Heat, Stacking penalty on speed modules, (aka. the end of the nano-era), Improved Starbase Warfare (although not quite finished, it is a vast improvement over the old POS warfare), and last but not least, the graphics overhaul. Never before have we been able to reduce our digital adversaries to dust with such magnificent detail. You continue to develop and expand this great game of yours, which, even after 2 years, still has me sitting at my PC for way too many hours a day. No company ever was perfect and no community goes without the occasional strife, but i must say you've improved significantly over the past year. However there is a thing i must ask you. Freeze development of any and all new features (Ambulation, factional warfare, universe expansions) for, say, 6 months, and instead, during that time, focus all human and hamster resources on optimising the game. As it stands now, certain 'features' of Eve are, while often taken for granted, the main source of aggravation for players. Isn't it sad, when someone disgruntled about certain issues with the game is told to 'deal with it or shut up', when most certainly those issues were not part of the EULA when he accepted it? I know it's not a popular topic û revising and optimising code and making hardware upgrades will rarely ever get you on the headlines of MMORPG.com, as opposed to shiny new additions and graphics, yet they will make the game so much more enjoyable for those who spend so many hours playing it. This is it, my new-years resolution to you. Trinity was announced with the notion that it took fifty man-years to develop. Let there be an announcement this year that you spent a hundred of those improving what already was there. Kind regards, and best wishes for 2008! - Tim. In before the trolls, alt posters and paper-tiger accusations. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
wierchas noobhunter Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:01:00 - [2] x2
NightmareX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:01:00 - [3] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/01/2008 12:06:01 Bah, wierchas noobhunter beated me to it to be first lol. I hope you know that the dev team that does give us new features and that can't do anything with bugs and that. There is an own team that only does the testing of bugs, testing of performance etc. The guys who are testing for bugs doesn't know anything about performance optimalization for example. So the other stuffs that CCP is making for us doesn't need to be stopped because EVE need more optimalization. CCP, fix my forum portrait FFS
Ka'lorn Font'a Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:04:00 - [4] /signed.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:05:00 - [5] /signed From recent experience, I would especially like to see the Corp management interface radically improved. It's clumsy and very opaque. I know that there are other more glamorous issues, but this one caused me a lot of aggravation over the last 6 months. Actually, come to think about it, I'd be happy for CCP to put aside lag, balance, Amarr, and just really work on the game interface as a whole. I love the information richness that the game provides, but a really quality interface would make the game more accessible to new players (without necessarily being "easier") and just more fun for everyone. Asking for 300 vs 400 battles to be lag-free may not be realistic with current technology. Asking for a game interface that is coherent, transparent, intuitive and attractive (or customisable and themeable if they don't want to waste resources on pretty) surely is. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:08:00 - [6] Originally by: NightmareX There is an own team that only does the testing of bugs, testing of performance etc. I've worked in software engineering for 15 years and the only time I've seen bugs like Eve suffers are when the company in question has no testing procedures in place. But I'm sure CCP have one, it's not like they'd wipe system files from Windows, break POS warfare then tell people not to engage in it ('you can't play the game this way, but you have to keep paying us while you wait for us to fix it'), or have legacy code that causes severe desynchronisation between client and server...well, the list goes on. Luckily Eve has none of that since their testing and QA department are a professional bunch. So yeah, thanks CCP! -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:17:00 - [7] Glad you didnt put scripts on that list. Changing scripts is fast and dandy, but sensor booster for instance can take alot of time before deactivating
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:23:00 - [8] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 07/01/2008 12:24:22 The problem comes from the fact that their mission statement seems to have changed. First they wanted to make a game for themselves to play and to allow others into so they could shoot them. While sounding selfish it's actually the best approach since that ensures they will look at problems from a pilot's perspective. Now things are different; they stated they wanted 300k players within a short time, they're looking for the big bucks. Wether that's because they want to cash and retire or because they need the cash to invest into new features and ventures is unimportant... They want more players and thus they will have to lure them and keep them, that means they will have to make design sacrifices in order to attract and keep new players, ie WOW-ification. Dumbing down the game, putting in failsaves and in general softening up the harsh gameplay. To attract new and more players they will have to advertise with something; and that something is new features. You DON'T get new players by saying "hey we mended the problems that have been plaguing the game for 3 years now", they get new players by shouting "LOOK AT OUR NEW AMBULATION!!!!1!111oneeleven". All of a sudden the emphasis has moved from the game to the cash, and this WILL change EVE. And at some point I'm sure they'll do thigns they have vowed to never do, since that decision would bring in more cash. I'm not saying that making cash is an evil thing; all I'm saying is that slowly but surely CCP (and thus EVE) is shifting from a small time, isolated, different and niche company into a mainstream one. And we all know what happens then...
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 13:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Varrakk Glad you didnt put scripts on that list. Changing scripts is fast and dandy, but sensor booster for instance can take alot of time before deactivating Not everything they gave us was good But many additions weren't as bad as many people thought. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
HoKu Ziare Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.07 14:17:00 - [10] You mean CCP should fix the game 1st? No no no... there is no lag. Come on now, what we need is more ... shinny stuff. /me puts on tin-foil hat.
Snipe Ranger	Posted - 2008.01.07 14:33:00 - [11] Edited by: Snipe Ranger on 07/01/2008 14:34:02 Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: NightmareX There is an own team that only does the testing of bugs, testing of performance etc. I've worked in software engineering for 15 years and the only time I've seen bugs like Eve suffers are when the company in question has no testing procedures in place. But I'm sure CCP have one, it's not like they'd wipe system files from Windows, break POS warfare then tell people not to engage in it ('you can't play the game this way, but you have to keep paying us while you wait for us to fix it'), or have legacy code that causes severe desynchronisation between client and server...well, the list goes on. Luckily Eve has none of that since their testing and QA department are a professional bunch. So yeah, thanks CCP! QFT!!, I've been in developement and SW testing for about 10 years and you're right on point. There is NO way any sort of testing would let some of these bugs through, if so you guys need to revamp your test cases ffs... Btw it is still a great game
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2008.01.07 14:39:00 - [12] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 07/01/2008 14:39:09 It's difficult to describe what a huge negative impact the new graphics are for Eve @ MyHouse without incurring the wrath of a dozen impenetrable fanboiz. Classic content runs slower than the new content, but at least it doesn't crash every 35 minutes. I'm going to be extremely sad puppy when they turn classic off for good. Insane Fanboi rants, including but not limited to "Upgrade your 486" begin in five, four, three, two... one.... -- Death of an insidious dictator Birth of a new one
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Sokratesz Kind regards, and best wishes for 2008! This! and Sokratesz, you can say that again. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:42:00 - [14] Then why can all whine and cry in more threads when the people from the art department start working on the server and the whole thing explodes. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Andargor theWise The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:58:00 - [15] In a sok thread \o/ I agree with you in essence, but practically I don't think they can reassign resources that easily. Different skill sets and all that. Second, I think the problems are of a more structural nature, and as such will require a partial rewrite of the code as well as new hardware technologies. Neither of those will come about quickly. - Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:05:00 - [16] /signed ys plz _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join!
Xaen Caldari Thunder Muffin	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:07:00 - [17] I fully expected this to be a completely worthless fanboi post based on the first couple of paragraphs, then you surprised me! Nicely done. Words cannot express how strongly I agree. See the UI link in my sig for what I see as the most important improvements to be made. The quality of the UI affects every single player in the game every second they're playing. It's performance and usability should be paramount, yet somehow it seems to have taken a back seat to absolutely everything. Also, please fix the CPU utilization bug that causes me to get a constant 10-20FPS at random, and 60FPS (v-synch on) the rest of the time. Sweet FSM how annoying. This, the strobing bug, and the broken look at function are what are currently bugging me the most. Now that doesn't mean what bugs me in particular is the most important. The UI is, but there are some showstopper bugs preventing me from using the premium graphics, and my system can handle them just fine for the 2 minutes that they're working correctly. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Intak Gallent Gallente S-44	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:08:00 - [18] You are soo right.. Optimize.. Its like windows.. lets create a game with so much bugs so we make more looping stuff so we can profit for many yaers.. /signed
Duncan Bannatyne BioDyne Industries	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Sokratesz (aka. the end of the nano-era) The nano-era has ended, what? When did this happen? Duncan Bannatyne The Dragons Are Taking Over...
Mark Starkiller D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:30:00 - [20] /signed
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Tzar'rim stuff Yep... Quote: All of a sudden the emphasis has moved from the game to the cash, and this WILL change EVE. And at some point I'm sure they'll do thigns they have vowed to never do, since that decision would bring in more cash. T2 battleships...
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:56:00 - [22] yay for 2007.... welcome to 2008, the second nano era! disclaimer: Nothing i say, do, think, or once have said, done, nor thought about can be held against me
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:41:00 - [23] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Then why can all whine and cry in more threads when the people from the art department start working on the server and the whole thing explodes. Oh hey, it's this post again. There's perfectly good money going on those artists and 'imagineers' that could be used on a better software/testing team, only ******s think the flip-side of that argument is to have artists do bug-fixing. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:49:00 - [24] wtb, dev response Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:52:00 - [25] It took me a while to reply, but the only thing I'v come up with so far is /signed I totaly agree with sok. The last year has been a great one, but the game is getting broken beyond playable... So please CCP, could you try and put the focus more on bug fixing this year then on features? _______ Sign my sig!
Trishan Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.07 23:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 07/01/2008 12:24:22 The problem comes from the fact that their mission statement seems to have changed. Quite so. Personally I'm very disappointed with the state of the client. New engine or not, it sucks and I have no hope that CCP will fix it in any significant way in at least sooner than 2 years. But, then, fixing the client doesn't sell more kit.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 23:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Sokratesz on 07/01/2008 23:23:09 I myself have a pretty strong opinion on certain issues with the game and i'm confident many others feel the same, but i was trying to prevent these sentiments in order to achieve a neat, civilised announcement and pose an honest question to CCP. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.07 23:28:00 - [28] I think if CCP spent 100 man-years on POS they'd still be bugged.... We live in hope Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Thunderguts Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.08 00:11:00 - [29] I don't know about bugs, I really haven't seen that many. They really ought to devote some time to redesigning the server side of things. I've never programmed that sort of thing, so I can't talk about it like an expert, but they need to design it such that the work can be shifted between CPUs as systems get overloaded. No star system should be lagging or crashing like Jita when other star systems are running smoothly. No QA or debugging team could fix it though, that would be a major redesign. That's my wish for 2008.
Chavu Ganja Labs Pure.	Posted - 2008.01.08 00:51:00 - [30] Love the game, hate the lag. Letting 500+ people pile into a system only to make the game unplayable is.....not pleasant to say the least. Improving the graphics was an excellent job and really makes the game look up to date. Now I hope CCP fires all those graphics people and hires tech 2 code improving monkeys.
SirMoric	Posted - 2008.01.08 00:58:00 - [31] Nice job, keep it comming! rgds
Xaziar Nortocus Knights of the Burger King YTMND.	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:11:00 - [32] Edited by: Xaziar Nortocus on 08/01/2008 01:12:36 Originally by: Malcanis Asking for 300 vs 400 battles to be lag-free may not be realistic with current technology. I beg to differ...its called Load Balancing...of course if there were MORE servers added to the cluster...we may have an increase of performance...oh...and a larger pipe...
Ezekiel Nailo Minmatar Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Xaziar Nortocus Originally by: Malcanis Asking for 300 vs 400 battles to be lag-free may not be realistic with current technology. Its called Load Balancing... he does have a point there and its also called GO MAC i mean INTEL ROCKS.... (ps dear ccp i must request that you remove all forms of comunisim from the game as it is offensive and debilitating to the free market system that we are trying to up hold. Case and point getting local spammed by the same guy under a new noob every 10min for www.aznwhateveriskbuyfromme.com <--- comunisim at work. When you have a state behind defrauding the rest of the universe target these guys. That and them dirty imigrants (Build a wall (on second note comunisim got one thing right)) But yes we have the technology we can rebuild him.
Dreeepa Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:29:00 - [34] /signed The grafics are a beatuy now. The game has grown significantly beyond all dreams. Seeing 40.000+ character (-alts = maybe 20.000-30.000?) online is really an advancement. The new grafx will channel even more newcomers. You have done well CCP, but now its time to take the next step! Multithreaded UI!! No more interface lags when the client waits for server data! Seperate the data processing from the local UI! Give us a fluid, smooth and responsive UI, like cough WoW cough has it. Thats all I can wish for in 2008. ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.01.08 12:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Andargor theWise In a sok thread \o/ I agree with you in essence, but practically I don't think they can reassign resources that easily. Different skill sets and all that. I don't think they need to reassign much resource. There's plenty of issues to resolve accross the board. Take game design for instance. The directional scanner needs an overhaul and as for exploration, surely there has to be a better way than a diceroll chance based system. Lot of stuff could be improved and redesigned, in addition to bug fixing.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.08 12:48:00 - [36] I agree. Many improvements and features have rekindled my love of this game. The increased subscription numbers should show just how true this is, but all the same it is important to let you know Thanks CCP ! ♥ DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Fenderson Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.01.08 13:06:00 - [37] this same post comes up like once every month or 2. anyone who has ever worked in software development can tell you the idea of "redirecting all resources to fixes" is rediculous and impossible, and would not get the major issues fixed any sooner. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.08 13:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Fenderson this same post comes up like once every month or 2. anyone who has ever worked in software development can tell you the idea of "redirecting all resources to fixes" is rediculous and impossible, and would not get the major issues fixed any sooner. See: Originally by: OneSock I don't think they need to reassign much resource. There's plenty of issues to resolve accross the board. Take game design for instance. The directional scanner needs an overhaul and as for exploration, surely there has to be a better way than a diceroll chance based system. Lot of stuff could be improved and redesigned, in addition to bug fixing. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
Ironnight Caldari x13 When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:00:00 - [39] The Overview, lag in 40 man battles, corp interface, just a few things I would like to see fixed or improved. The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:03:00 - [40] You only need 1 guy to change a lightbulb, the other 99 can do everything else. No use trying to put 100 guys on changing the same lightbulb. EVE History Wiki
achoura	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:10:00 - [41] I think there may be some slight confusion over what Sokratesz said. The implication was not to pour all departments into one large problem, but halt future development while each individual department fixed or improved what they actually have before developing new stuff which subsequently won't perform as intended until their next future release. Not a chance in hell sadly since targets are already set and halfway done. The balancing is a good point though, tii bs in particular we're not built to be giant hac destroying everything (which would discourage new subscribers) but dumbed them down, down to the point where they simply ar not worth the investment. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Spoon Thumb I think if CCP spent 100 man-years on POS they'd still be bugged.... We live in hope Why spend 100 man-years to fix something that can't be fixed when you only need one man-day to remove them entirely from the game itself and get rid of the whole problem?
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Originally by: Spoon Thumb I think if CCP spent 100 man-years on POS they'd still be bugged.... We live in hope Why spend 100 man-years to fix something that can't be fixed when you only need one man-day to remove them entirely from the game itself and get rid of the whole problem? If they had spent 100 man years on posses, they would start from scratch and work it out from there. Imho it's one of the better solutions, posses just have way to many difficult to find bugs... _______ Sign my sig!
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:24:00 - [44] Bump for dev attention.
seliana tanis Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:44:00 - [45] /signed

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:46:00 - [46] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 15/01/2008 17:47:22 Firstly, thanks for the kind words. This is pretty much a text-book example of constructive criticism.. mainly because it's not impolite. In return I'll do my best to shed some light on things, but please keep in mind that I an a database developer. I don't make the decisions of resource allocations nor do I have much say in our policies. That is not to say I'm kept in a box and shut of from everything, but I still have to act within the limitations of my position. Disclaimer aside, as other's have pointed out we have different departments for different tasks, no big surprise there. I'm not going to waste words on that fact as it's obvious. I'm not going to maintain that there is nothing wrong with the game. I'm a perfectionist and it's my nature to refuse that anything is perfect, there's always room for improvements. But I'm also a realist (which doesn't go well with being a perfectionist because, like I said, I understand that nothing can ever be perfect) and as one I need to tell you that we'll never stop all development. That would put an entire departmant out of business for those 6 months. As far as I can see, it's just not happening. Sorry. However, I can shine some light in your life. I don't know if this has been mentioned before but there's an entire department in CCP which has nothing to do with EVE itself and everything to do with our architecture. I know it's the same argument as the different departments one, but I reckon you didn't know we had a split EVE group and CORE group. Now I'm not a part of the CORE group so I can't speak for them but I'm looking forward to see their work roll out... in a 100+, or so, man years. As to new EVE only features they're constantly being optimized. We're just careful about them and test them extensively.. they're liable to screw with established features if we don't. Now everyone starts screaming Jump Bridges and what-have-you. Granted some things have slipped through QA. But you'll notice I said nobody is perfect but they're sure trying to get there. If you'd realise how much the QA department here has grown and been reorganized you wouldn't be too surprised to see those growing pains in action. They're all great people, very dedicated to what they do and willing to learn from their mistakes and achievements. I'm serious on this growing pains... it's nothing like the QA I got used to when I started. This probably doesn't answer much. But I just thought the post was so well written and to the point that it deserved some attention.. even thought it's a league off my chosen field. As to the people here that maintain their many years of software experience give them a carte blanche on telling other people off on how they do their job... there are so many things wrong with that, professional cameraderie aside. Here are the bullet points: * You know nobody writes perfect code the first, second or third time around. Heck, if you're prudent like me you know it to never be perfect. You also know that people who maintain they code perfect are people you'd want to avoid like the plague. * You know these are forums. Quoting 1337 experience on anonymous forums is akin to the: "I'm not going to post again in this topic!" (Sadly I've found myself in way to many flamefest I've had to excuse myself out of with this, and I know what it makes people think). * Everyone knows that a farmer with 10000 years of experience with livestock is still not capable of doing everything. Those might be 10000 years of experience with a special breed and his methods might kill off other breeds. But if the case is that you're the best programmers in the world: Congratulations. Please apply for a job in the MSSQL Server team, there's a lot of stuff I'd want in there which they maintain isn't doable. Edit: Again, I am sorry for the vague information but I'd just rather not give you false information or extrapolations. I'll see if Explorer has some free time tomorrow and fancies explaining this better or correcting me (which I hope he won't have to do, please accept forward apologies if that is the case) ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:53:00 - [47] Heh Prism I am at uni atm as an engineer and software project planning is part of it. It must be a nightmare to write so many lines of code (considering comercial grade code is usally around 400-600 lines a month per person fully tested) that has to interact with such a complicated and established system where you can combine so many parts of it at once. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
BLAIYNE Shadow Play Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:56:00 - [48] Edited by: BLAIYNE on 15/01/2008 17:57:24 Thanks for the answer Prism - it's always good to know more about how CCP works. Looking forward to the results of the 100+ man years of performance development!
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:15:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edit: Again, I am sorry for the vague information but I'd just rather not give you false information or extrapolations. I'll see if Explorer has some free time tomorrow and fancies explaining this better or correcting me (which I hope he won't have to do, please accept forward apologies if that is the case) Thank you, looking forward to it :)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Arana Tellen (considering comercial grade code is usally around 400-600 lines a month per person fully tested) Damn, I should ask more money. When in a developpement period, I write 400-1200 lines of code fully tested per day. Oh wait, it's COBOL . If it were c++, I guess it should be 200-600... I agree about the maintenance. I have the same problem in my job. "Hey guys we should stop and clean our code/db !! So we could work faster after this... So we can do things better, with less bugs, crashes and angry clients !!" "Just... Shut up." 2isk
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: CCP Prism X Edit: Again, I am sorry for the vague information but I'd just rather not give you false information or extrapolations. I'll see if Explorer has some free time tomorrow and fancies explaining this better or correcting me (which I hope he won't have to do, please accept forward apologies if that is the case) Thank you, looking forward to it :) Prism, btw, you wrote almost a devblog there. What about saying a word about different CCP teams ? "We are 200 ppl, here's QA, they are 40, they are testing stuff, here's IT, 8 ppl, doing this, here's buisness guys, scheming how to conquer the world, 40 guys. Here's db guys, 20 ppl, these are the hamsters. Here's client ops, 5 ppl, they are counting money and stuff about our clients" etc 2isk
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:03:00 - [52] Hi PrismX. I am learning some basic programming and I am not very good at it. But I am willing to learn and be better at programming if I am given the chance. Would I be able to apply at CCP please? Thank you. I can understand how hard writing a program can be. Writing program is not an easy work and programmers have my respect. LOL, heck even the cash register at where I work in looks overly difficult to program. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:23:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Prism X As to the people here that maintain their many years of software experience give them a carte blanche on telling other people off on how they do their job... there are so many things wrong with that, professional cameraderie aside. Here are the bullet points: * You know nobody writes perfect code the first, second or third time around. Heck, if you're prudent like me you know it to never be perfect. You also know that people who maintain they code perfect are people you'd want to avoid like the plague. Fully agreed. Perfect code does not simply exist. Most of the time you make do with code that works and avoid playing with it after it gets to work to a reasonable degree of efficency and works reliably; after all, you have other stuff to develop. I know I have modules in release software which I don't want to touch with a rusty ten-foot pole anymore. It is horrible code, I don't understand how it works anymore and I don't even remember what is it supposed to do anymore. However, the rest of the system relies on it and it does the job. Would adding massive new features probably break it? Likely. Does this happen to EvE periodically? Yes, of course, it happens to bloody everyone with a complex system. Experience in working on other stuff except EvE does not necessarily transfer to fixing EvE; first off, many things which apply to N jobs do not apply to a online game of this nature, and N things that applies to other online games of this nature does not apply to EvE, and you have to work within the existing framework anyway. Tbh, I'd rather shoot myself in the foot then apply for the MSSQL team. Now, EvE, on the other hand... I'd probably shoot myself in the foot after two months ;P Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Pyr3x Gallente TiS Industries	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:32:00 - [54] Are you guys crazy!? Development on the game it's engine etc will lead to a better game in general. You will see reduced lag and better performance. Also those of you who wine and gripe because of the new graphics only do se because you refuse to dish out some cash to upgrade your PC's. I feel that the devlopment team should continue there work on everything and anything they wish to bring to eve. I DO NOT support this thread.
Adel Sorra Gallente Recruitment and Industrial Center	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:02:00 - [55] Edited by: Adel Sorra on 15/01/2008 21:07:13 Originally by: Xaziar Nortocus Edited by: Xaziar Nortocus on 08/01/2008 01:12:36 Originally by: Malcanis Asking for 300 vs 400 battles to be lag-free may not be realistic with current technology. I beg to differ...its called Load Balancing...of course if there were MORE servers added to the cluster...we may have an increase of performance...oh...and a larger pipe... No we dont. it has been explained several times, atm the smallest thing they can swap between servers of the cluster is a whole solar system, running on one cpu. And swaping is only possible at boot-time. so adding more server wont change anything for jita, only improve the odds of 'not crashing' in a biiig fight somewhere in 0.0 very, very slightly. Originally by: Cpt Branko Fully agreed. Perfect code does not simply exist. Most of the time you make do with code that works and avoid playing with it after it gets to work to a reasonable degree of efficency and works reliably; after all, you have other stuff to develop. I know I have modules in release software which I don't want to touch with a rusty ten-foot pole anymore. It is horrible code, I don't understand how it works anymore and I don't even remember what is it supposed to do anymore. However, the rest of the system relies on it and it does the job. Would adding massive new features probably break it? Likely. Does this happen to EvE periodically? Yes, of course, it happens to bloody everyone with a complex system. This hits the nail on the head. Let me just add, for the non-programmers, without explaning the why: rewriting those parts is a very, very timeconsuming work and often frustrating work. // edit but i do agree, the ui could use some love
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.16 23:29:00 - [56] CCP, its all black box to us customers and comes across as the perceived 'lag' we get when doing something time critical (like turning on your modules or targeting someone). Is there anyway to give those of us that can work on such issues some more information to go on? All I see is Wireshark readouts and a complete lack of response from my client. Is there anything we can do to help ourselves? Is there a network card we can buy that will alleviate some of the stress our clients get, any 'pre-cache' settings we can tweak or is the issue all on your side? Coming from the Open Source World (not that I want you to suddenly allow me access to your source code ;-) ) I've found that many heads can solve really big problems. Sometimes, the best solutions come from Left Field. In real life, I'm a Quality Developer (I write tools for the QA team to help them out testing software the company I work for sells) and I know no developer writes perfect code (and to be watchful of those that say they do ;0). There is a LOT of love for this game and people can be very dedicated for zero cost to you. Infact, I reckon EVE has more than its fair share of Developers playing it (i.e. compared to the Spread sheet type combat MMOs like WoW) and hey, you might just find someone in your customer base just developed a new technology that could help you. Its 2008 after all, lots of fresh BSc Comp Sci's out there since you started. Any way, to be clear, information about what the 'bottle necks' are for the game is what I would love to see talked about in an open manner. At least if we know where the issues are so we can stop people screaming 'Fix it' and start helping you with a solution. -- Two cannibals eating a clown. One says to the other "Does this taste funny to you?"
Ikthorn Balhar Veto.	Posted - 2008.01.16 23:33:00 - [57] I'd settle with a comprehensive explanation of how command modules and links are supposed to to work, and how squad/wing/fleet make-ups should be affected, rather than have to guess at a lot of this stuff, or go by information that's almost 2 years old...
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.01.17 00:01:00 - [58] Edited by: Taikun on 17/01/2008 00:01:52 Originally by: CCP Prism X Firstly, thanks for the kind words. This is pretty much a text-book example of constructive criticism.. mainly because it's not impolite. Ahhh I see how it is. People who are genuinely upset with lackluster service incompetent game design and communication get the door slammed in their faces. (posts deleted, emails unanswered and moderated threads) While those that act like fan-bois and use just the right about of verbal lube get you Devs in mood for a bit of forum loving. (someone quick! get me a bucket) Here is some advice. Perhaps you should do your jobs and address every paying customers concerns. Percieved 'impolite' or not... we are all customers and YOU should conduct yourselves with a bit of professionalism. Christ... if a snot nosed 15 year old at McDOnalds can conduct himself with a professional demeaner with an upset customer and have a dialouge... well? Don't like the truth in my post? Too impolite? Well just sprinkle a few of the comments below through it until you are suitably stupefied. "You are the best!" "Eve Rocks" "Thanks for 2007" "Marry my sister" "Lets have a beer a fan fest" "Gawd I'd like it ever-so-much to work at CCP". Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.17 10:13:00 - [59] Quote: However there is a thing i must ask you. Freeze development of any and all new features (Ambulation, factional warfare, universe expansions) for, say, 6 months, and instead, during that time, focus all human and hamster resources on optimising the game. A: New graphics require some programming, all programmers dedicated to server code means the graphics guys can't do anything. B: Since the graphics guys can't do anything the gamedesigners can't do anything. C: Content teams will grind to halt or delivering only very small ammounts of unimaginative work (ie. the umpteenth kill mission, if a mission would be anything other then standard it needs programming again). Also for example ambulation is programmed by programmers located in the US office, these programmers probably can't help improve the server side code. Not to mention hardware upgrades do get press atttention (and always has): http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/1724 http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/1196 http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10044 http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/08/0352256 Anyways yes I do hope lag is improved, and I hope the infiniband project will help there. But quite frankly I have no doubt in my mind that the moment for example 400 vs 400 is playable that alliances will sent 700 vs 700 and break the server again. Same goes for jita . --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Eternal Hatred Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies	Posted - 2008.01.17 10:27:00 - [60] End of nano-era? Oh boy, there's moar nanos than evar! _________________ It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :(
Yohanes Flame Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:20:00 - [61] It is the little bugs that are the most annoying. Current bugs in the UI alone are so numerous they are hard to bug report. It is troublesome that I as a user have picked up habits that keep me from even noticing all the bugs anymore, I have changed the way I interact with game in ways that I can not even remember, in order to avoid bugged situations in the UI and game play. DEV IGNORE AFTER THIS: And when did questions become not constructive criticizes? Why would you need to "fanboi" for two paragraphs to get in one or two long standing grievously understated questions? Players have asked for a dedication to bugs for...well ever. When will it come to pass that bugs have the top priority not the last. http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/knownissues.asp ____________________________ One Thead to rule them all - Boot.ini pre-patch thread
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.17 11:38:00 - [62] Originally by: Shevar Anyways yes I do hope lag is improved, and I hope the infiniband project will help there. But quite frankly I have no doubt in my mind that the moment for example 400 vs 400 is playable that alliances will sent 700 vs 700 and break the server again. Same goes for jita . This has been stated over and over again ... but why aim so low? CCP knows the current fleet battles and the numbers where they break. They have projected user numbers for 1-2 years. So it would be reasonable to aim at making 2000v2000 possible (my personal estimate). Now (non-CCP) people can speculate left and right about whether this is possible with current technology or not, but if CCP think it isn't, wouldn't it be more reasonable to put some hard limits in the game, which, while also frustrating, are at least more predictable than the outcome of a node crash / lagged out fleet battle? If it can't be done, it can't be done and it's no use pretending that it can. I don't know what those limits could be; hard limit on players per system, or all but a few "fleet" ship types getting kicked from the system, or all non-carrier ships being unable to launch drones... I'm sure that something could be found and players would adapt. If it's too frustrating to be unable to play the game as it is designed, you have to change the game design to make it playable again. IMHO. :-/
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Shevar Anyways yes I do hope lag is improved, and I hope the infiniband project will help there. But quite frankly I have no doubt in my mind that the moment for example 400 vs 400 is playable that alliances will sent 700 vs 700 and break the server again. Same goes for jita . This has been stated over and over again ... but why aim so low? CCP knows the current fleet battles and the numbers where they break. They have projected user numbers for 1-2 years. So it would be reasonable to aim at making 2000v2000 possible (my personal estimate). Now (non-CCP) people can speculate left and right about whether this is possible with current technology or not, but if CCP think it isn't, wouldn't it be more reasonable to put some hard limits in the game, which, while also frustrating, are at least more predictable than the outcome of a node crash / lagged out fleet battle? If it can't be done, it can't be done and it's no use pretending that it can. I don't know what those limits could be; hard limit on players per system, or all but a few "fleet" ship types getting kicked from the system, or all non-carrier ships being unable to launch drones... I'm sure that something could be found and players would adapt. If it's too frustrating to be unable to play the game as it is designed, you have to change the game design to make it playable again. IMHO. :-/ Because 2000 vs 2000 is just totally unrealistic to be able of supporting? With 2000 vs 2000 you won't only run into server limitations like we currently do but gfx lag will also skyrocket with the ammount of models in space. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi PrismX. I am learning some basic programming and I am not very good at it. But I am willing to learn and be better at programming if I am given the chance. Would I be able to apply at CCP please? Thank you. I can understand how hard writing a program can be. Writing program is not an easy work and programmers have my respect. LOL, heck even the cash register at where I work in looks overly difficult to program. wow Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.18 19:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Eternal Hatred End of nano-era? Oh boy, there's moar nanos than evar! You must've missed the 12km/s phoons, 15km/s machariels and 18km/s vagas.
wierchas noobhunter Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.18 19:17:00 - [66] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Eternal Hatred End of nano-era? Oh boy, there's moar nanos than evar! You must've missed the 12km/s phoons, 15km/s machariels and 18km/s vagas. agree but now like everything and everyone is nano

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It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :(