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Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:10:00 - [61] Originally by: nether void Originally by: Ephemeron Carebearism in general is a philosophy of easy play, and there's nothing easier than local chat. If this is true, then 5v1 mission ganking is carebearism. Like ganking PvErs is hard. lol Wrong. Carebearism would mean that the PvEr is magically protected from ganks, thus making the game much easier for him. Everyone can get ganked. One day you are in a small roaming fleet ganking someone else, another day you are alone getting ganked by another fleet. The PvEr and PvPer positions are not restricted to specific people, everyone can choose to be one or the other and switch whenever they want. What matters is the game mechanics that make player skill more meaningful in dealing wither other players, dealing with PvP.
Beowulf Scheafer	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:14:00 - [62] I completely disagree with removing local. and i have really no intension to prove my point for the gazillion-and-onest time
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:15:00 - [63] I don't understand why people seem to think that removing local would hurt the carebears. All ships have scanners! Removing local would be cool for both sides, IF ship scanners were tweaked and modules were introduced to change the nature of one's scanner. Imagine, if directional scanners took time to actually scan, much like probes. And lets say that focusing the scanner would both speed up the scan AND extend the range. It would be a nice little game of cat and mouse, favoring the prepared. I personally think that removing local could help reinvigorate low-sec. ------------------------------- The opinions reflected in this post DO reflect the opinions of my corp...of one guy and a bunch of alts.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Ashira Twilight I don't understand why people seem to think that removing local would hurt the carebears. All ships have scanners! Removing local would be cool for both sides, IF ship scanners were tweaked and modules were introduced to change the nature of one's scanner. Removing local and forcing people to use active scanners hurts dumber players more. Typically, it is assumed that carebears are dumber, that's why many people say it would hurt carebears more. It could work both ways. The bottom line is that removing local and boosting scanners forces people to rely more on their own game playing skills.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:34:00 - [65] Edited by: Zeba on 09/01/2008 02:35:21 Originally by: Ephemeron The bottom line is that removing local and boosting scanners forces people to rely more on their own game playing skills. Which is what lowsec/0.0 is supposedly about. If someone wants to semiafk play eve then stick to safe empire. Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here. I did and got banned.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol The Fifth Race	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:42:00 - [66] I dunno if it's been said yet, but removing local does one thing and one thing exactly: Makes you alone in the system. You have no friends to turn to, no idea who is out to get you, and most importantly, YOU DONT KNOW WHO IS IN THE SYSTEM. Straight up. Lowsec will become a desolate blobbing wasteland, nosec will probably stay the same, and highsec will crowd up because less people will be willing to go to lowsec. End of story. Can we close the thread now? I think this has been beaten into the ground one too many times with the same circular logic and arguments, and I'm tired of people "trying" to get rid of the greatest tool in the game. _________________ Burn.
Kalica Kahn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.09 02:46:00 - [67] Yeah get rid of it (or as the OP suggested allow people to close it and not appear in local) for 2 reasons. 1) Then you can have REAL covert ops, and have to scout enemy numbers properly rather than just jumping it and counting local 2) I wouldn't have any more intelligence drained from my being by accidentally read the inane drivel spouted in hub systems local. Seriously I have a trade/production alt based in a hub system and good lord every time I read local I somehow feel dumber. Sure go ahead put blasters and railguns on your vigil to "maximise your engagement envelope" but keep it to yourself. Oh and no I'm not going to "duel you" so you can show of your "l33t" faction tank, if you want to fight stop f*gging up a hisec system. :argh: Ok I'm calm now tl;dr Local is for kitten killers
Mystic Dawn Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 04:32:00 - [68] I agree with the fact that removing local is not a good idea, though I also agree that local gives away too much information as to who exactly is in the system. I dont see what the problem would be to replace local with a simple counter, allowing you to see how many people are in the system without giving away whether they are friend or foe. you could tell if a system is empty or not just as quick as you can now, and people would most likely take more chances as they would not instadock or jump to ss as soon as local shows 1 extra person as they wont know if they are friendly or not. Local definatly needs an overhaul, just show how many people are in the system not who is in the system. My 2cents
NightmareX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:00:00 - [69] Local is FINE as it is now. Local have been in this game for 5 years now, and if the local haven't been removed before, then it will never be removed. Local chat is working perfect as it is now. You just jump in to see who is in that system, so you can go after hostiles etc. And by having local as it is now, you can get the EXACT number of hostiles in systems, and then we can also bring the same numbers to fight them. The worst thing that can happen to me is that you have to use hours of hours to scan out where the hell those enemies are in the system you think they are in. And pressing the scanner all the time to get updates on what ships that are within your scanner range is BORING AS HELL. And the worst thing can be that if you are trying to scan out one in local, you never know if that guy actually are friendly or not, how crap would it be to use long time to scan out a player in local and then to find out omg it's a friendly. LOCAL WILL STAY AS LONG THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS BETTER AND CAN REPLACE THE LOCAL. CCP, fix my forum portrait FFS
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:05:00 - [70] Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 09/01/2008 12:06:09 Originally by: Tarminic According to Oveur, local will remain until there is a different but viable intelligence-gathering tool that can replace it. he is a douche tbh, system wide scanner that is 360 only, dont allow ships to be parked in pos's without people in them (safe spot is fine, if you want to scanner spam in safespots then you can have those empty ships probed) tis too easy to carebear in 0.0, though upping the rewards (or nerfing high sec missions to be inline with high sec belts) would be good. Edit: also dont remove static belts, how stupid can you be.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:07:00 - [71] Originally by: NightmareX You just jump in to see who is in that system, so you can go after hostiles etc. And by having local as it is now, you can get the EXACT number of hostiles in systems, and then we can also bring the same numbers to fight them. hahahaha hahahahahaha hahahaha like the church ever brought equal numbers to a fight they knew was coming
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:22:00 - [72] Originally by: NightmareX Local is FINE as it is now. That's a poor way to convince people of your point of view. Originally by: NightmareX Local have been in this game for 5 years now, and if the local haven't been removed before, then it will never be removed. So have been Nos and sensor boosters. Never underestimate the audacity of CCP nerfing. Originally by: NightmareX Local chat is working perfect as it is now. You just jump in to see who is in that system, so you can go after hostiles etc. And by having local as it is now, you can get the EXACT number of hostiles in systems, and then we can also bring the same numbers to fight them. Not true of any station system. Not true for special case of AFK cloakers. Nobody wants to bring "same numbers to fight them". Seriously, are we even playing the same game here? you should know better. Originally by: NightmareX The worst thing that can happen to me is that you have to use hours of hours to scan out where the hell those enemies are in the system you think they are in. Most of your enemies will be at the gates. You won't have any trouble finding them. And if you do have problems, try gate camping - a popular way to find pvp. It works, your arguement is false. Originally by: NightmareX And pressing the scanner all the time to get updates on what ships that are within your scanner range is BORING AS HELL. Not as boring as sitting on a gate waiting for someone to jump in. But yea, you do have a point there. Active scanning needs a slight boost to be better. But it by means should be the reason against local nerf. Originally by: NightmareX And the worst thing can be that if you are trying to scan out one in local, you never know if that guy actually are friendly or not, how crap would it be to use long time to scan out a player in local and then to find out omg it's a friendly. Start working on more effective intelligence sharing methods, start communicating more with your allies. Lastly, try asking the guy in local, if you like being seen, you won't mind showing up, and if he's friendly, he'll let you know. These are just some possibilities, you have many options. Some kind of boost to scanning would make things even better. Originally by: NightmareX LOCAL WILL STAY AS LONG THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS BETTER AND CAN REPLACE THE LOCAL Not true. It's not enough to have a great idea of something better. CCP people have to consider it and implement, that takes time. Different points of view see different things as "better", what matters are the opinions of people with power to make those changes.
Antraxx Caldari Deviance Inc DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:36:00 - [73] This has been said god only knows how many times... But /signed anyway! That day when local went down for a while was more fun than i'd had in a long time.. Sure it means miners wont know you entered system,but the crud about "Only pirates want local removed for easy kills" is total BS. Scanning every system is easy kills? ...The same risks that the "prey" faces apply to the pirates too.. Changing local to a counter,with people appearing only when they speak in the chan would IMO add a lot to eve. No longer would every move a gang makes be so easily monitored,Tactics and strategys that could be employed would make for some very interesting PVP. There are a good number of ways local could be changed,and as has already been said countless times-It was never intended to be a 100% failsafe Intel tool. And just how "Immersion Breaking" can you get? ---------- ---------- Deviance Inc. is recruiting!-Eve mail me :) Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. delaying startup again.
hantwo S.A.S Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Tarminic According to Oveur, local will remain until there is a different but viable intelligence-gathering tool that can replace it. thats because hes a carebear Why me eh?
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:43:00 - [75] lock re-posting necro topic... - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
lolzor	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:44:00 - [76] stupid idea is stupid
Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:52:00 - [77] Local channel is ghey. Get rid of it, i want fog of war. __________________ How do I shot web?
StickyFingerz Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Cailais Your Local Scan Range should reduced according to the sec status of a system. In 1.0 you see in local any player within 100AU of your ship, 90 AU in 0.9 and so on until your Local Scan Range reduces to 0 AU in 0.0. Holding Sov allows a Corp/Alliance to place Communication Beacons in a system increasing its Locan Scan Range rating. Your personal Sec rating adds a % bonus / deducts a % penalty to your scan range - e.g a +5 Sec rating pilot gets a 50% bonus to his Local Scan Range (changing a 0.4 system from 40AU to 60AU. C. now that isnt bad ;) /waves at vitoc ;)
shismo	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:51:00 - [79] Hello! ultimate carebear here. Please remove local. This will make me go into low sec again. The problem is that any pirate can come into a low sec system, and see that i am there, and then try to hunt me down. If there is no local, they wont know if there is anyone in the system! They would have to start probing! Thats a lot of probes and time they would need to spend to even find a target worth probing out in the first place! No local makes everyone safer. Its much easier to check the scanner every now and then to see if someones closing in on you, than it is to probe someone out. And this will make belt piracy come back! Though it would be kind of lame to be sitting in a belt and have 10 ships warp in on me. What happened to the days when an ubered out rifter could come and own my ratting caracal? That was some fun back then ;_; It seemed more personal.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:10:00 - [80] One small positive side effect of local nerf is that Chinese isk farmers in 0.0 are going to get ganked badly. Right now they rely heavily on local to tell them when to log off or cloak. A local nerf is a nerf to isk selling websites. (in a small way)
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:19:00 - [81] I think the only people who call for this are the people with no home systems that need defending, or Recon BPO holders.
NightmareX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:32:00 - [82] Edited by: NightmareX on 09/01/2008 14:36:31 Ephemeron, you say NOS got nerfed?, yes that's damn right, but did the NOS got worser? NO, the NOS got way better than it was. So actually i wont call that a nerf, i will call it a boost. Well ofc, if there is some improvements to the local, then i'm saying the local can be changed. But that's doesn't mean local can be removed. CCP, fix my forum portrait FFS
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Fifth Horseman I think the only people who call for this are the people with no home systems that need defending, or Recon BPO holders. I understand you have a valid concern. I strongly encourage CCP to improve current intelligence gathering methods to compensate for the local nerf. We could have slightly improved active scanners. We should probably have option to make overview show active scanner data every 5 seconds (there's no need to force players to click "scan" every 5 seconds, should be automated). 0.0 territory holders could have some deployable gate sensor devices that could provide extra information about who's entering and leaving, instantly - but they would be destroyable. POS could have system scanner arrays that are very difficult to destroy due to POS shield protection, but they shouldn't provide as much info as gate sentries, for example. They could have limited AU scan range and have 30-60 second delay. There needs to be a whole new machanism that allows alliances and corp members to join/share intelligence network, with in-game tools that let one player pass scanner data to all players on the network. It should work like a database showing who was detected and how long ago it happened. This feature may be a little too hard for CCP to develop, I just think it would be cool. I believe that making Overview display active scanner data automatically, without delay, is the easiest thing to implement and it would be enough to justify local nerf.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:40:00 - [84] I almost absolutly, 99%.... AGREE with Op. /signed x1000 BUT, remove it in 0.0 only. That will actually make 0.0 more dangerous than low-sec, as it should be, even players that are in the space of their own Alliance will get a sence of insecurity.
Valeria Caldari The Spang	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:44:00 - [85] Local should be replaced by scanning already. That little chatwindow has a much to large role in this game. You probably spend more time with your eyes on local chat than on your ship. That's just weird.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:47:00 - [86] Half-hearted suggestion, since I don't really like the idea of losing local as a social tool: Remove the names from lowsec/nullsec local but keep the population counter. This way you can still tell that when someone jumps in/out of system but you won't know who until they broadcast a message. Only then does their portrait, name, and status show up. It would limit the effectiveness of the free intelligence tool in dangerous territory, and provide a stimulus to social interaction as well -- even if it's just to say hi to see if the visitor is friendly. Carebears and mission runners can stay silent or in empire if they want the additional safety.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:48:00 - [87] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 09/01/2008 14:36:31 Ephemeron, you say NOS got nerfed?, yes that's damn right, but did the NOS got worser? NO, the NOS got way better than it was. So actually i wont call that a nerf, i will call it a boost. How exactly did Nos get better? Amarr recon ships that rely on Nos are crying Faction, officer, complex Nos prices have dropped by half or so. The free market says Nos got less useful. The purpose of the nerf was to make it less useful. The new nos functionality is completely included as subset of old nos functionality. In other words, old nos could do everything the new one can do, and do more things. If you are denying that, and you think local nerf is a nerf to pvp, I really don't understand what kind of logic rules your mind functions on.
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:51:00 - [88] Edited by: Korizan on 09/01/2008 14:51:36 Well your ship is logged and registered every time you pass through a stargate and that information is broadcast system wide. So if you use the jump gate you are knowm to everyone else in system. Yes I know there is a flaw in that cyno ships do not use the gates. (Can't just say capitals anymore) So if you really wanted to to play with local I suppose you could go that far and remove them at least till they say something in local. (would be interesting for black ops) Maybe you could add in if a ship is spotted or scanned down then it is also reported. But either way just removing local is not going to happen, to many people are against it. This includes myself by the way. Just removing local in even 0.0 is a bit extreem.
Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:54:00 - [89] Edited by: Zaskarr on 09/01/2008 14:55:18 Originally by: Ephemeron cool ideas. This. As I wrote, remove local. But of course introduce new means of intel gathering and improve current ones. All this would add more depth to the game. And introduce fear of unknown which should be part of every space game IMO. Now it boils down to "omg local is filling up, run/dock/logofski" or blues>reds in local, jump on them. Thats too dumbed down/gamey/etc.. __________________ How do I shot web?
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:06:00 - [90] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 09/01/2008 16:12:05 Gankers and camapers are not the only ones who benefit from removing local... I would argue that gate campers and gankers actually benefit MORE than anyone from local. They don't have to be on their guard all the time. They can chill until local magically notifies them there is a target and then they group up. It takes the burden of constant vigilance away. IMHO.. local is a MAGICAL service.. and as such belongs in WOW.. not EVE. If people want to chat there are enough channels and voice apps to do so.. Local is useless... its a crutch and counter immersive for a game that relies on wits. Bare empty space should be just that.. bare and empty. It does not notify us of rats or roids or exploration sites or moon contents... why should it notify us when someone enters the system? I am up for a compromise such as no one can see you until you say something or having local tied to sovereignty and/or scanning where it actually has a function and can be tied in to roll playing. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9

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