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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Don Genaro	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:37:00 - [31] for the OP: what exactly happened to your ship? All you say is that it was lost inside a POS shield. blown up? or disappeared? details.
Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn What I want to know is this: If they can't find a bug in the logs, surely they can locate the section of the logs that show what actually happened to the person's ship? These threads pop up all the time, and the GM answer is never: "Our logs show it was actually ________, not a bug." It's always: "Sorry, we can't find anything in our logs to prove your claim." No details as to what they found instead. They can't do that either. Why not? Simple example - someone leaves their ship inside the POS and when they come back it isn't there. How was it removed? Did someone in the corp steal it? Did someone know the pos password? Rather than an in game investigation they petition it - and get information that way. Any answer other than 'our logs show no bugs' gives them information. You can't even tell them there was no foul play if there was no foul play because then a refusal to answer in that case means there was foul play. Frustrating as it may be in that sort of situation no information can be given out. Zarch AlDain
Don Genaro	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:19:00 - [33] Exactly. As a general rule, never undock from a ship in space (inside a POS or otherwise) and never store a ship in a maint array unless you are OK with losing it. Eventually someone will take it and you might never know who or why.
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:25:00 - [34] The GM's are generally useless outside of Stuck petitions and Billing petitions. I would prefer if they used a hint of inteligence, while they can't prove desync, they can can look at the logs for evidence. I lost a Rook around a year ago due to eve freezing up, obviously the logs didnt show anything, and so i got zip. But look at what happened in the logs, only 2 enemy ships, i was next to the gate with no agro, i didnt jam/lock/shoot anything, i didnt MWD away. I warped to the gate and did nothing. There was no possible advantage to me purposely losing my ship and petitioning it, if i had done anything i would of escaped, or the group i was with (some noob frigs/cruisers) would have killed at least 1 of them. The GMs have a brain it be nice if they'd use it instead of robotically copy n pasting company policy dribble. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:37:00 - [35] Edited by: Asestorian on 11/01/2008 14:37:27 darkmancer: You're missing the point here. I'm sure that there are some situations where the GM can clearly see that, although the logs don't show anything, a bug or crash was the cause. But they still have to follow the rules, they can't just say "aww I'm going to be nice here and ignore everything and get fired". Edit: Also, the rules state that the server has to be the cause (and lag doesn't count of course). Your client freezing up is not a case for reimbursement under their rules. --- MOZO
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:44:00 - [36] Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 14:44:58 Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes You are correct, if this had been a criminal accusation. But it's an insurance petition, and every insurance company will inspect your car and reason for the damage, before giving out any money. But they still payout if they cannot prove you are doing anything wrong. Presumption of innocence. And nor does your insurance company say "The road/weather was at fault, we're not paying", this is akin to "The internet was at fault, we're not paying". But thanks for yet another flawed and pointless RL analogy. (HINT: CCP do not have to build ships) Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes And why do you ask? Because so many people have tried to cheat the insurance company. CCP are just using common sense. CCP are not using common sense, they are simply presuming everybody to be a liar, and unless you, or the logs, can prove you are not a liar, then you are a liar. If people try to cheat CCP, why are the rest of us who do not try to expected to suffer the fallout of that? Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes It is actually you who are accusing CCP of being corrupt. Now bring the proof of their guilt. Originally by: Me, earlier. In fact looking at the cases where people have proved beyond a doubt something that CCP should not have done or allowed, it has always been the whistle blower that CCP has terminated, and indeed not the guilty party. CCP actions in the past have been to utterly destroy anybody who publicly humiliates them, therefore you're not drawing me to say anything more, or show any evidence, because I don't need the Gestapo turning up in my inbox tonight.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 11/01/2008 12:36:50 tbh, i'd rather they save themselves the time and just not reimburse ships ever, no matter why you lost it and instead spend their time both improving the game and performance.... GMs don't write code -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:43:00 - [38] Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:45 Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:30 Originally by: Fifth Horseman Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 14:44:58 Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes You are correct, if this had been a criminal accusation. But it's an insurance petition, and every insurance company will inspect your car and reason for the damage, before giving out any money. But they still payout if they cannot prove you are doing anything wrong. Presumption of innocence. And nor does your insurance company say "The road/weather was at fault, we're not paying", this is akin to "The internet was at fault, we're not paying". The analogy is flawed. An insurance company exists to pay out - GMs do not. When you submit a claim to an insurance company you are asking them to do their job. Even then they will often try to find a reason to reduce the payment. When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it. The sad fact is that most people do try to cheat. It's human nature. If you want to be kind you could say that they just like to 'try it on'. I've been party to many ship loss discussions and people are always suggesting you petition to see if you can get your ship back. Anyone that has worked in a customer-facing job knows what people are like. They whine, they shout, they lie and they never, ever accept responsibility for their actions. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:58:00 - [39] Edited by: Nyphur on 11/01/2008 15:58:54 Originally by: mental88 "Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM." I do wish they would enforce this rule properly. I've gotten ships back in pvp situations that seriously were not lost due to bugs. It means that every time I make a kill, I have to wonder if a GM will come along and undo my kill by reimbursing the guy. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Asestorian Edited by: Asestorian on 11/01/2008 14:37:27 darkmancer: You're missing the point here. I'm sure that there are some situations where the GM can clearly see that, although the logs don't show anything, a bug or crash was the cause. But they still have to follow the rules, they can't just say "aww I'm going to be nice here and ignore everything and get fired". Edit: Also, the rules state that the server has to be the cause (and lag doesn't count of course). Your client freezing up is not a case for reimbursement under their rules. Yes GMs have to follow the Rules but the rules are made and changed at CCP's descresion. Besides; "Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM." I have proved that my ship was destroyed as a result of a bug, the circumstances which I'm sure the GM's could verify amount to circumstantial evidence. If r/l courts can use such evidence i'm sure GM's can use it in cases of imaginary ships pew pewing other imaginary ships. As for the server having to be at fault, - well If the eve client formats your hard drive or deletes your Boot.ini, thatÆs your fault is it? Besides i don't know if it was my client or the server that was at fault eve kindly show me the damage i was taking but wouldn't let me do anything about it, and TS continued to work, whys the burden of proof on me to prove what happened, especially when im not the one with the tools to find out? It doesnÆt matter if its company policy, or if WOW does it, its still bad practice. I can understand CCP not wanting people to abuse the petition system, but it's rediculous how draconian they are about it. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:16:00 - [41] Edited by: darkmancer on 11/01/2008 16:16:49 Edited by: darkmancer on 11/01/2008 16:16:26 Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:45 The analogy is flawed. An insurance company exists to pay out - GMs do not. When you submit a claim to an insurance company you are asking them to do their job. Even then they will often try to find a reason to reduce the payment. When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it. I think the insurance analogy is quite apt. You essencially pay the GM's (all be it though CCP) to put things right that once went wrong (damn you quantum leap), the fact insurance companies are greedy ****es doesnt really matter. Reimbursement may be outside interference, but its alot better than the game breaking it self and it's own rules. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:19:00 - [42] Originally by: Andrue When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it. The initial abberation is the ship getting destroyed because TQ couldn't correctly identify the status of the ship based on communication failure with my computer. My computer didn't tell TQ the ship popped, TQ decided that for itself, and got it wrong. Typically the logs will show it's perfectly normal, but I'd be very interested to see those logs to see at what point responses from my computer cease, what point my ship gets popped, and why oh why did my hardners switch off if TQ thought I was still there? duh? And how do the logs change if they say "no" to reimbursement, then you escalate it successfully? And how do the logs change when a bug suddenly becomes popular, like about 8 months ago when there was a spate of rats shooting mission runners from 23au away who had already warped out? And suddenly after the fourm goes crazy about it, people start getting reimbursed, but those that occured previously had been denied, closed, failure to re-open? It's an abberation if CCP decide they're not going to do anything about it. And I don't see many times that two wrongs make a right. If the logs prove you are lying, don't reimburse, otherwise reimburse. Then they have a good reason to make sure those logs are right, because at the moment they seem to be pretty sucky logs and little priority given to making them correct. They don't even need to build an extra ship. But makers of grills are happy to replace 2x the value if it burns you, and they do have to make the grill. And on another matter, even if every single reimbursement petition was granted no matter what it still would not skew the market as much as the ISK farmers do anyway. (probably).
Dete Data	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:36:00 - [43] Edited by: Dete Data on 11/01/2008 16:37:17 Edited by: Dete Data on 11/01/2008 16:36:42 Originally by: Fifth Horseman Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 13:03:54 Originally by: Captain Thunk And why censor GM communication? It's copy and paste standard replies that everyones already seen plenty of times before. If it was something more specific I could understand but they were just the normal standard replies. They don't want any evidence out there that the GM system is fundamentally flawed, completely inconsistant, and in some cases, corrupted. In fact looking at the cases where people have proved beyond a doubt something that CCP should not have done or allowed, it has always been the whistle blower that CCP has terminated, and indeed not the guilty party. Pretty much sums up everything about what to expect from them. In brighter news, I have received a full refund from [Popular grill manufacturer], and a voucher as compensation for a very minor burn that I got from one of their grills I bought. They are indeed very sorry for it, and are looking into the problem with the grill. They didn't inspect my wound. Or treat me like dirt. Not going to waste time responding to the op because tbh the petition button should just be removed, Why act like you care when you know you don't is my rule. About the refund for you grill, obviously that company understands the importance of customer satifaction and retention. Most people only put up with CCP because there no other space based game == to it atm. Watch what happens if anything came out nearly as good. Yes on that day you can gadly have my stuff.
mental88 CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:35:00 - [44] Quote: "Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM." now i wonder what the logs do show due to the fact the logs should notthing everytime i petition a lose that's do server side issues which are veryfied in banning pos warfare at the time. do believe me this goes as one hugh bug in eve that they aren't willing to admid in any form or way. i also have a screenshot that i uploaded to the gm's handling my petition. to ccp atropos: to bad you removed my quotes it's time that you as ccp get to see the facts what your gm's do honest players.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr! LoL, even I couldnt come up with a good way to turn this into an amarr thread hahaha. Good one --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Karann Minmatar Locus Solus	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr! wow, do you never stop?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Karann Originally by: Jonny JoJo Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr! wow, do you never stop? It was a good one wasnt it. Where is your sense of humor. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:15:00 - [48] Originally by: Karann Originally by: Jonny JoJo Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr! wow, do you never stop? The Amarr Emporer once questioned Amarrian design as dictated by the Gods of CCP. He was Assasinated for such view and the Empire has yet to find another bold enough Emporer to take his place. Thats is why you must be very careful around GM communincations. If not even the Amarr Emporer is immune, then what chanse do we stand? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:21:00 - [49] I wonder if this whine has anything to do with this =)
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:59:00 - [50] Haha that sounds about right feng schui. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Thuranni The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:03:00 - [51] Originally by: darkmancer I would prefer if they used a hint of inteligence, while they can't prove desync, they can can look at the logs for evidence. Read this quote. Then think.
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:51:00 - [52] Originally by: darkmancer I have proved that my ship was destroyed as a result of a bug, the circumstances which I'm sure the GM's could verify amount to circumstantial evidence. If r/l courts can use such evidence i'm sure GM's can use it in cases of imaginary ships pew pewing other imaginary ships. You can't prove anything. CCP won't accept any evidence you give, because, no matter how difficult it is, there is always the possibility of tampering. Whether it's logs, screenshots or video evidence, they won't accept it. Secondly, as has been pointed out before, this situation isn't like being in a court, it's more like collecting insurance, although not exactly. Why does this have to be compared to anything anyway, instead of taking it for what it is? Quote: As for the server having to be at fault, - well If the eve client formats your hard drive or deletes your Boot.ini, thatÆs your fault is it? That's pretty much irrelevant. This is CCP's fault, and provable as such. They rectified their mistake very quickly, and have reimbursed those who proved that they were forced to spend money to get their computers fixed were they affected by it. Quote: Besides i don't know if it was my client or the server that was at fault eve kindly show me the damage i was taking but wouldn't let me do anything about it, and TS continued to work, whys the burden of proof on me to prove what happened, especially when im not the one with the tools to find out? The burden of proof isn't on you at all, because you aren't allowed to give evidence. CCP have the logs, and if it shows that the server wasn't at fault, or that the server may have been at fault but it isn't a valid reason for reimbursement then you won't get anything. Whether the real reason was your client freezing, desync, your computer crashing or your internet connection dropping briefly causing you to disconnect doesn't matter. The GMs' concern in a reimbursement petition is whether the reason was valid or not, beyond that it's your problem. Quote: It doesnÆt matter if its company policy, or if WOW does it, its still bad practice. I can understand CCP not wanting people to abuse the petition system, but it's rediculous how draconian they are about it. The abuse is exactly the reason CCP must be draconian with it. If they let up based on circumstantial evidence, or give players the right to submit their own evidence, they might as well go all the way and just give everyone back their ship if they ask for it. There's no way people aren't going to lie and cheat the system if the GM's let them, and that's very, very bad for the game. --- MOZO
Neener	Posted - 2008.01.12 16:04:00 - [53] shouldnt be too hard to prove if ship was in POS shields or not. Server logs should have coordinates where ship was destroyed, so they just can check if those coordinates are inside the POS shield. If they dont have that info, time to sack the guy who made their log system :p
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.01.12 17:22:00 - [54] someone guessed the pass and got in... dont make the pass the same as the pos name, for that you pay the 1bil isk 'im a ******' penalty. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Auron Shadowbane Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.12 17:26:00 - [55] OP = noobtard? Proof?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.12 18:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Fifth Horseman ... You seem incredibly dissatisfied with CCP...why are you still here if they suck so much? ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
Enkindu Gallente Black Serpent Technologies	Posted - 2008.01.12 18:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Don Genaro for the OP: what exactly happened to your ship? All you say is that it was lost inside a POS shield. blown up? or disappeared? details. and Originally by: Don Genaro As a general rule, never undock from a ship in space (inside a POS or otherwise) and never store a ship in a maint array unless you are OK with losing it. Eventually someone will take it and you might never know who or why. This..
Rafus Dawn of Fire	Posted - 2008.01.12 19:52:00 - [58] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=680911 lulz
Khandara Seraphim	Posted - 2008.01.12 21:54:00 - [59] You didn't happen to lose a Chimera, did you?
Buchatar Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.12 22:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim You didn't happen to lose a Chimera, did you? -cackles madly and peers at the thread he just finished reading- To the OP, check this out briefly. It has a couple of answers... Your Carrier? ------------------ Yes, ofcourse I mine for fish... got a problem with that?

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