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mental88
CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:40:00 -
[1]
fellow eve player,
i'm realy fet up with the way gm's handle the petitions.
my current petition is about a ship lose inside pos shield. all they can and will say is we can't find anything in our server logs or failing to admid there is a bug.
i qoute a few things from my petition reply's by gm's:
first reply:
 Quote:
Thank you for contacting customer support. We apologize for the late reply. We regret to inform you that we have not been able to verify exactly what happened to you and thus are not able to reimburse you. We can only use our server logs for verification as this is the only secure information that we have.
third reply:
Quote:
We are sorry about your loss.However, we can ensure you that after a very careful review of our server records, we still don't see any server problem at the time of your destruction. We are sorry for your loss but we have to stick to our reimbursement policy which only allows us to reimburse the loss due to verified bugs, errors, or recorded server issues.
last reply:
Quote:
My apologies for the late reply. After looking into the relevant logs and reviewing this case, I have to concur with the decision made by the previous GM. We cannot verify through our server logs that your loss was caused by a bug or server problems, and thus we are forced to deny reimbursement. I am sorry that we aren't able to reverse your losses this time around.
by the looks of things they take bugs pretty light and don't follow there own rules.
Quote:
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
this is pure bull**** they are saying to me they pos warfare or the posses where not bugged. can anyone tell me what is wrong with the gm's and there server logs since we the players aren't allowed to have a look in the logs.
mental
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:42:00 -
[2]
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total) |
ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:43:00 -
[3]
In before the deletion.
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Sleepkevert
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:43:00 -
[4]
No, posses are bugged, but I don't think there is a bug that is RELEVANT to your loss.
Sorry to hear you are not getting anything, but such is the rules...
_______
Sign my sig! |
Moneeh
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:43:00 -
[5]
stuff ....can.........i ..haz?
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Lais Eron
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:45:00 -
[6]
well for one crappy code written by underpaid inexperienced programmers would cause lag and not register on any logs :P
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Arngorf
Minmatar
x13
When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
I would prefer not to have them deleted... let as many ppl see how much the GM support sucks so that we at some point will have an army of petition whiners 
Somethng HAS to be done!
__________________________________
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Lais Eron
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Moneeh
stuff ....can.........i ..haz?
no he will givz0r his stuffs to me because i schpell better
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arngorf
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
I would prefer not to have them deleted... let as many ppl see how much the GM support sucks so that we at some point will have an army of petition whiners
Somethng HAS to be done!
Forgot to post with your alt?
Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total) |
Oku Kee'lus
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:50:00 -
[10]
Quote:
by the looks of things they take bugs pretty light and don't follow there own rules.
Eeerm, I think you might want to improve your reading skills mate.
Quote:
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
They can't verify your loss was due to a bug, hence they wont re-imburse you. They are sticking to their own rules, like they should.
Move one, they can't help you. it's not their fault either... and don't throw a hissy when you get a warning for posting this, which is against the rules.
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DroneBay Diva
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:51:00 -
[11]
Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 11/01/2008 11:56:14
Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 11/01/2008 11:53:47
Originally by: Arngorf
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
I would prefer not to have them deleted... let as many ppl see how much the GM support sucks so that we at some point will have an army of petition whiners
Somethng HAS to be done!
Yeah, CCP customer support sucks. Their petition system sucks. Their programmers suck. Their bug testers REALLY suck. The language filter sucks. The search feature sucks.
But the game is fun. Weight them against each other and make your decision.
Edit: lag, desynch's, and node crashes also suck.
Edit 2: sound effects and in-game music sucks too, tbh.
_____________________________________________________________________________
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Moneeh
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Originally by: Arngorf
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
I would prefer not to have them deleted... let as many ppl see how much the GM support sucks so that we at some point will have an army of petition whiners
Somethng HAS to be done!
Yeah, CCP customer support sucks. Their petition system sucks. Their programmers suck. Their bug testers REALLY suck. The language filter sucks. The search feature sucks.
But the game is fun. Weight them against each other and make you decision.
and give them stuffz to me 
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Silent Silar
New Eden Research and Construction
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:06:00 -
[13]
Ibtl, And I agree. They suck. :|
Component and Freightner Blueprints
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Ursula LeGuinn
Versus Gloria Omnis
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:08:00 -
[14]
What I want to know is this: If they can't find a bug in the logs, surely they can locate the section of the logs that show what actually happened to the person's ship?
These threads pop up all the time, and the GM answer is never: "Our logs show it was actually ________, not a bug." It's always: "Sorry, we can't find anything in our logs to prove your claim." No details as to what they found instead.
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Ama-gi
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:10:00 -
[15]
I too have had this problem. I understand that they want to keep people from modifying the logs. that's ok. Why not let us have download access to them? We could then review the logs and point to the page and paragraph where the logs indicate some error? or do the logs even exist....
--
No love for the Matari |
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CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:15:00 -
[16]
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Arngorf
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
I would prefer not to have them deleted... let as many ppl see how much the GM support sucks so that we at some point will have an army of petition whiners
Somethng HAS to be done!
Yeah, you have to learn to think further than your own nose. Sorry if it seems harsh, but after reading the replies, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the GM's decision. They are polite. They state what they had done and that they couldn't find anything in their logs.
You know, a desync will not show up in their logs. That could be the reason for your loss, and so not CCP's fault.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:32:00 -
[18]
Quote:
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
Innocent until proven guilty is the usual method for non-CCP customers.
However, as far as CCP are concerned, you, and by you I mean "You, who is reading this", you are 100% a complete liar. You are a cheat, a swindler, you are attempting to steal isk from a game you have not earned. You are worthy of nothing you despicable excuse for a person.
It should be that where the logs show that you lost ship by an acceptable method, you will not be reimbursed.
Anything else is an affront to all that is decent in the world.
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:35:00 -
[19]
tbh, i'd rather they save themselves the time and just not reimburse ships ever, no matter why you lost it and instead spend their time both improving the game and performance....
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Quote:
Innocent until proven guilty is the usual method for non-CCP customers.
Thats not even slightly true - most MMO's follow the same guidelines as CCP in terms of reimbursement, i.e. they check logs/roll backs to see if your telling the truth or making up a story.
You words are not a reply to my words, they are a reply to some other words I didn't use.
There is a huge difference between an assumption of innocence, and an assumption of guilt. No reasonable authority ever expects a person to prove himself innocent, nor do they assume them to be guilty.
If CCP cannot determine guilt, they should be assuming innocence, it is one of the founding basic principles on which most societies are based.
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:42:00 -
[21]
Always nice to be able to read "stuff that is modded gestapo style" on here
And i feel your pain, when it comes to ship replacement the replys from the GM's can be the most dodgy of all. Also the fact that where not allowed to discuss that stuff on here doesn't make it any easyer to see how consistent GM's are (because they are probably far from it)
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 11/01/2008 12:36:50
tbh, i'd rather they save themselves the time and just not reimburse ships ever, no matter why you lost it and instead spend their time both improving the game and performance....
I agree completely. Then the GM's can handle real issues instead of people whining about loosing their ship to lag.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
You words are not a reply to my words, they are a reply to some other words I didn't use.
There is a huge difference between an assumption of innocence, and an assumption of guilt. No reasonable authority ever expects a person to prove himself innocent, nor do they assume them to be guilty.
If CCP cannot determine guilt, they should be assuming innocence, it is one of the founding basic principles on which most societies are based.
That would be pure stupidity and would largely ruin the concept of loss in the game.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:47:00 -
[24]
Situations such as this one could be handled better if loss mails / logs contained more information such as:
- objects within 250km with distance (in this case it would show the actual distance of the Tower => easy to determine whether the loss was OK or due to a bug)
- effects active on the ship during the loss (1 scram pt. by player X, POS shield by Gallente Control Tower, Warp Disrupt Probe belonging to XXX...)
I'd expect many loss petitions to be avoided this way, or handled better/quicker.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Captain Thunk
Captain Morgan Society
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:49:00 -
[25]
There are problems with the way petitions are handled.
My Brosef lost a ship to node weirdness as well as 2 other corp mates. The two corpmates got their ships reimbursed but my brosefs petition received the "our server logs show no problems" treatment. It makes no sense and took 2 months of petitioning and 2 more GMs to review (the first concurred with the original) before it was finally dealt with consistently with the other people at that time.
That and forum rules. They make no sense either. What's the point in barring people without a corp ticker from posting in CAOD when you can make a corp called "God that's a stupid CAOD rule" with a noob alt and post freely.
And why censor GM communication? It's copy and paste standard replies that everyones already seen plenty of times before. If it was something more specific I could understand but they were just the normal standard replies.
THUNK!
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Surreptitious
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
How about being helpful to the poor guy and giving some advice on how to get it resolved. This is why so many people think your customer support sucks.
Syrup
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 12:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Esmenet
That would be pure stupidity and would largely ruin the concept of loss in the game.
What?
The concept of loss should include software and internet defficiencies?
Now, that's stupid.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:01:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 13:03:54
Originally by: Captain Thunk
And why censor GM communication? It's copy and paste standard replies that everyones already seen plenty of times before. If it was something more specific I could understand but they were just the normal standard replies.
They don't want any evidence out there that the GM system is fundamentally flawed, completely inconsistant, and in some cases, corrupted.
In fact looking at the cases where people have proved beyond a doubt something that CCP should not have done or allowed, it has always been the whistle blower that CCP has terminated, and indeed not the guilty party.
Pretty much sums up everything about what to expect from them.
In brighter news, I have received a full refund from [Popular grill manufacturer], and a voucher as compensation for a very minor burn that I got from one of their grills I bought. They are indeed very sorry for it, and are looking into the problem with the grill.
They didn't inspect my wound. Or treat me like dirt.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:09:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Esmenet on 11/01/2008 13:09:38
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Originally by: Esmenet
That would be pure stupidity and would largely ruin the concept of loss in the game.
What?
The concept of loss should include software and internet defficiencies?
Now, that's stupid.
Yes because its extremely easy to fake lag, without any real possibility for ccp to prove this. This would remove the concept of loss as i'd fake internet problems every time i got in trouble. That would be utterly stupid for the game, as ship loss is the drivng force in the game.
It would be much better if they just stopped reimbursing at all.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Innocent until proven guilty is the usual method for non-CCP customers.
You are correct, if this had been a criminal accusation. But it's an insurance petition, and every insurance company will inspect your car and reason for the damage, before giving out any money.
And why do you ask? Because so many people have tried to cheat the insurance company. CCP are just using common sense.
It is actually you who are accusing CCP of being corrupt. Now bring the proof of their guilt.
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Don Genaro
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:37:00 -
[31]
for the OP: what exactly happened to your ship? All you say is that it was lost inside a POS shield. blown up? or disappeared? details.
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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn
What I want to know is this: If they can't find a bug in the logs, surely they can locate the section of the logs that show what actually happened to the person's ship?
These threads pop up all the time, and the GM answer is never: "Our logs show it was actually ________, not a bug." It's always: "Sorry, we can't find anything in our logs to prove your claim." No details as to what they found instead.
They can't do that either. Why not?
Simple example - someone leaves their ship inside the POS and when they come back it isn't there.
How was it removed? Did someone in the corp steal it? Did someone know the pos password?
Rather than an in game investigation they petition it - and get information that way.
Any answer other than 'our logs show no bugs' gives them information. You can't even tell them there was no foul play if there was no foul play because then a refusal to answer in that case means there was foul play.
Frustrating as it may be in that sort of situation no information can be given out.
Zarch AlDain
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Don Genaro
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:19:00 -
[33]
Exactly. As a general rule, never undock from a ship in space (inside a POS or otherwise) and never store a ship in a maint array unless you are OK with losing it. Eventually someone will take it and you might never know who or why.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:25:00 -
[34]
The GM's are generally useless outside of Stuck petitions and Billing petitions.
I would prefer if they used a hint of inteligence, while they can't prove desync, they can can look at the logs for evidence.
I lost a Rook around a year ago due to eve freezing up, obviously the logs didnt show anything, and so i got zip.
But look at what happened in the logs, only 2 enemy ships, i was next to the gate with no agro, i didnt jam/lock/shoot anything, i didnt MWD away. I warped to the gate and did nothing. There was no possible advantage to me purposely losing my ship and petitioning it, if i had done anything i would of escaped, or the group i was with (some noob frigs/cruisers) would have killed at least 1 of them.
The GMs have a brain it be nice if they'd use it instead of robotically copy n pasting company policy dribble.
---------------------------------
There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Asestorian
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:37:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Asestorian on 11/01/2008 14:37:27
darkmancer: You're missing the point here. I'm sure that there are some situations where the GM can clearly see that, although the logs don't show anything, a bug or crash was the cause. But they still have to follow the rules, they can't just say "aww I'm going to be nice here and ignore everything and get fired".
Edit: Also, the rules state that the server has to be the cause (and lag doesn't count of course). Your client freezing up is not a case for reimbursement under their rules.
---
MOZO
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:44:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 14:44:58
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
You are correct, if this had been a criminal accusation. But it's an insurance petition, and every insurance company will inspect your car and reason for the damage, before giving out any money.
But they still payout if they cannot prove you are doing anything wrong. Presumption of innocence. And nor does your insurance company say "The road/weather was at fault, we're not paying", this is akin to "The internet was at fault, we're not paying".
But thanks for yet another flawed and pointless RL analogy. (HINT: CCP do not have to build ships)
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
And why do you ask? Because so many people have tried to cheat the insurance company. CCP are just using common sense.
CCP are not using common sense, they are simply presuming everybody to be a liar, and unless you, or the logs, can prove you are not a liar, then you are a liar.
If people try to cheat CCP, why are the rest of us who do not try to expected to suffer the fallout of that?
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
It is actually you who are accusing CCP of being corrupt. Now bring the proof of their guilt.
Originally by: Me, earlier.
In fact looking at the cases where people have proved beyond a doubt something that CCP should not have done or allowed, it has always been the whistle blower that CCP has terminated, and indeed not the guilty party.
CCP actions in the past have been to utterly destroy anybody who publicly humiliates them, therefore you're not drawing me to say anything more, or show any evidence, because I don't need the Gestapo turning up in my inbox tonight.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.11 15:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 11/01/2008 12:36:50
tbh, i'd rather they save themselves the time and just not reimburse ships ever, no matter why you lost it and instead spend their time both improving the game and performance....
GMs don't write code 
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.11 15:43:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:45
Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:30
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 14:44:58
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
You are correct, if this had been a criminal accusation. But it's an insurance petition, and every insurance company will inspect your car and reason for the damage, before giving out any money.
But they still payout if they cannot prove you are doing anything wrong. Presumption of innocence. And nor does your insurance company say "The road/weather was at fault, we're not paying", this is akin to "The internet was at fault, we're not paying".
The analogy is flawed. An insurance company exists to pay out - GMs do not.
When you submit a claim to an insurance company you are asking them to do their job. Even then they will often try to find a reason to reduce the payment.
When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it.
The sad fact is that most people do try to cheat. It's human nature. If you want to be kind you could say that they just like to 'try it on'. I've been party to many ship loss discussions and people are always suggesting you petition to see if you can get your ship back. Anyone that has worked in a customer-facing job knows what people are like. They whine, they shout, they lie and they never, ever accept responsibility for their actions.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.01.11 15:58:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Nyphur on 11/01/2008 15:58:54
Originally by: mental88
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
I do wish they would enforce this rule properly. I've gotten ships back in pvp situations that seriously were not lost due to bugs. It means that every time I make a kill, I have to wonder if a GM will come along and undo my kill by reimbursing the guy.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.01.11 16:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Asestorian
Edited by: Asestorian on 11/01/2008 14:37:27
darkmancer: You're missing the point here. I'm sure that there are some situations where the GM can clearly see that, although the logs don't show anything, a bug or crash was the cause. But they still have to follow the rules, they can't just say "aww I'm going to be nice here and ignore everything and get fired".
Edit: Also, the rules state that the server has to be the cause (and lag doesn't count of course). Your client freezing up is not a case for reimbursement under their rules.
Yes GMs have to follow the Rules but the rules are made and changed at CCP's descresion. Besides;
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
I have proved that my ship was destroyed as a result of a bug, the circumstances which I'm sure the GM's could verify amount to circumstantial evidence.
If r/l courts can use such evidence i'm sure GM's can use it in cases of imaginary ships pew pewing other imaginary ships.
As for the server having to be at fault, - well If the eve client formats your hard drive or deletes your Boot.ini, thatÆs your fault is it? Besides i don't know if it was my client or the server that was at fault eve kindly show me the damage i was taking but wouldn't let me do anything about it, and TS continued to work, whys the burden of proof on me to prove what happened, especially when im not the one with the tools to find out?
It doesnÆt matter if its company policy, or if WOW does it, its still bad practice. I can understand CCP not wanting people to abuse the petition system, but it's rediculous how draconian they are about it.
---------------------------------
There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.01.11 16:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: darkmancer on 11/01/2008 16:16:49
Edited by: darkmancer on 11/01/2008 16:16:26
Originally by: Andrue
Edited by: Andrue on 11/01/2008 15:44:45
The analogy is flawed. An insurance company exists to pay out - GMs do not.
When you submit a claim to an insurance company you are asking them to do their job. Even then they will often try to find a reason to reduce the payment.
When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it.
I think the insurance analogy is quite apt. You essencially pay the GM's (all be it though CCP) to put things right that once went wrong (damn you quantum leap), the fact insurance companies are greedy ****es doesnt really matter.
Reimbursement may be outside interference, but its alot better than the game breaking it self and it's own rules.
---------------------------------
There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.01.11 16:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Andrue
When you submit a claim to a GM you asking them to investigate a problem and see what action should be taken. Reimbursement is intereference with the game world from outside. It's an abberation and should be a last resort. The GMs quite rightly need a good reason to do it.
The initial abberation is the ship getting destroyed because TQ couldn't correctly identify the status of the ship based on communication failure with my computer. My computer didn't tell TQ the ship popped, TQ decided that for itself, and got it wrong.
Typically the logs will show it's perfectly normal, but I'd be very interested to see those logs to see at what point responses from my computer cease, what point my ship gets popped, and why oh why did my hardners switch off if TQ thought I was still there? duh?
And how do the logs change if they say "no" to reimbursement, then you escalate it successfully?
And how do the logs change when a bug suddenly becomes popular, like about 8 months ago when there was a spate of rats shooting mission runners from 23au away who had already warped out? And suddenly after the fourm goes crazy about it, people start getting reimbursed, but those that occured previously had been denied, closed, failure to re-open?
It's an abberation if CCP decide they're not going to do anything about it.
And I don't see many times that two wrongs make a right.
If the logs prove you are lying, don't reimburse, otherwise reimburse. Then they have a good reason to make sure those logs are right, because at the moment they seem to be pretty sucky logs and little priority given to making them correct.
They don't even need to build an extra ship. But makers of grills are happy to replace 2x the value if it burns you, and they do have to make the grill.
And on another matter, even if every single reimbursement petition was granted no matter what it still would not skew the market as much as the ISK farmers do anyway. (probably).
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Dete Data
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Posted - 2008.01.11 16:36:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Dete Data on 11/01/2008 16:37:17
Edited by: Dete Data on 11/01/2008 16:36:42
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 11/01/2008 13:03:54
Originally by: Captain Thunk
And why censor GM communication? It's copy and paste standard replies that everyones already seen plenty of times before. If it was something more specific I could understand but they were just the normal standard replies.
They don't want any evidence out there that the GM system is fundamentally flawed, completely inconsistant, and in some cases, corrupted.
In fact looking at the cases where people have proved beyond a doubt something that CCP should not have done or allowed, it has always been the whistle blower that CCP has terminated, and indeed not the guilty party.
Pretty much sums up everything about what to expect from them.
In brighter news, I have received a full refund from [Popular grill manufacturer], and a voucher as compensation for a very minor burn that I got from one of their grills I bought. They are indeed very sorry for it, and are looking into the problem with the grill.
They didn't inspect my wound. Or treat me like dirt.
Not going to waste time responding to the op because tbh the petition button should just be removed, Why act like you care when you know you don't is my rule.
About the refund for you grill, obviously that company understands the importance of customer satifaction and retention. Most people only put up with CCP because there no other space based game == to it atm. Watch what happens if anything came out nearly as good. Yes on that day you can gadly have my stuff.
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mental88
CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 11:35:00 -
[44]
Quote:
"Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM."
now i wonder what the logs do show due to the fact the logs should notthing everytime i petition a lose that's do server side issues which are veryfied in banning pos warfare at the time.
do believe me this goes as one hugh bug in eve that they aren't willing to admid in any form or way. i also have a screenshot that i uploaded to the gm's handling my petition.
to ccp atropos:
to bad you removed my quotes it's time that you as ccp get to see the facts what your gm's do honest players.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 11:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
LoL, even I couldnt come up with a good way to turn this into an amarr thread hahaha. Good one 
---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Karann
Minmatar
Locus Solus
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 11:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
wow, do you never stop?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 11:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Karann
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
wow, do you never stop?
It was a good one wasnt it. Where is your sense of humor.
---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 13:15:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Karann
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Remove GM quotes ASAP or they will nerf your post as much as they Nerfed Amarr!
wow, do you never stop?
The Amarr Emporer once questioned Amarrian design as dictated by the Gods of CCP. He was Assasinated for such view and the Empire has yet to find another bold enough Emporer to take his place.
Thats is why you must be very careful around GM communincations. If not even the Amarr Emporer is immune, then what chanse do we stand?
Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total) |
Feng Schui
Minmatar
The Ninja Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 13:21:00 -
[49]
I wonder if this whine has anything to do with this =)
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Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 13:59:00 -
[50]
Haha that sounds about right feng schui.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Thuranni
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 14:03:00 -
[51]
Originally by: darkmancer
I would prefer if they used a hint of inteligence, while they can't prove desync, they can can look at the logs for evidence.
Read this quote. Then think.
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Asestorian
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.01.12 14:51:00 -
[52]
Originally by: darkmancer
I have proved that my ship was destroyed as a result of a bug, the circumstances which I'm sure the GM's could verify amount to circumstantial evidence.
If r/l courts can use such evidence i'm sure GM's can use it in cases of imaginary ships pew pewing other imaginary ships.
You can't prove anything. CCP won't accept any evidence you give, because, no matter how difficult it is, there is always the possibility of tampering. Whether it's logs, screenshots or video evidence, they won't accept it. Secondly, as has been pointed out before, this situation isn't like being in a court, it's more like collecting insurance, although not exactly. Why does this have to be compared to anything anyway, instead of taking it for what it is?
Quote:
As for the server having to be at fault, - well If the eve client formats your hard drive or deletes your Boot.ini, thatÆs your fault is it?
That's pretty much irrelevant. This is CCP's fault, and provable as such. They rectified their mistake very quickly, and have reimbursed those who proved that they were forced to spend money to get their computers fixed were they affected by it.
Quote:
Besides i don't know if it was my client or the server that was at fault eve kindly show me the damage i was taking but wouldn't let me do anything about it, and TS continued to work, whys the burden of proof on me to prove what happened, especially when im not the one with the tools to find out?
The burden of proof isn't on you at all, because you aren't allowed to give evidence. CCP have the logs, and if it shows that the server wasn't at fault, or that the server may have been at fault but it isn't a valid reason for reimbursement then you won't get anything. Whether the real reason was your client freezing, desync, your computer crashing or your internet connection dropping briefly causing you to disconnect doesn't matter. The GMs' concern in a reimbursement petition is whether the reason was valid or not, beyond that it's your problem.
Quote:
It doesnÆt matter if its company policy, or if WOW does it, its still bad practice. I can understand CCP not wanting people to abuse the petition system, but it's rediculous how draconian they are about it.
The abuse is exactly the reason CCP must be draconian with it. If they let up based on circumstantial evidence, or give players the right to submit their own evidence, they might as well go all the way and just give everyone back their ship if they ask for it. There's no way people aren't going to lie and cheat the system if the GM's let them, and that's very, very bad for the game.
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MOZO
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Neener
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Posted - 2008.01.12 16:04:00 -
[53]
shouldnt be too hard to prove if ship was in POS shields or not.
Server logs should have coordinates where ship was destroyed, so they just can check if those coordinates are inside the POS shield.
If they dont have that info, time to sack the guy who made their log system :p
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Lithalnas
Amarr
Headcrabs
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:22:00 -
[54]
someone guessed the pass and got in... dont make the pass the same as the pos name, for that you pay the 1bil isk 'im a ******' penalty.
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fixed for greater eve content |
Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.12 17:26:00 -
[55]
OP = noobtard?
Proof?
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.01.12 18:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
...
You seem incredibly dissatisfied with CCP...why are you still here if they suck so much?
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Enkindu
Gallente
Black Serpent Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 18:57:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Don Genaro
for the OP: what exactly happened to your ship? All you say is that it was lost inside a POS shield. blown up? or disappeared? details.
and
Originally by: Don Genaro
As a general rule, never undock from a ship in space (inside a POS or otherwise) and never store a ship in a maint array unless you are OK with losing it. Eventually someone will take it and you might never know who or why.
This..
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Rafus
Dawn of Fire
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Posted - 2008.01.12 19:52:00 -
[58]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=680911
lulz
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Khandara Seraphim
|
Posted - 2008.01.12 21:54:00 -
[59]
You didn't happen to lose a Chimera, did you?
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Buchatar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.12 22:42:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
You didn't happen to lose a Chimera, did you?
-cackles madly and peers at the thread he just finished reading-
To the OP, check this out briefly. It has a couple of answers...
Your Carrier?
------------------
Yes, ofcourse I mine for fish... got a problem with that?
|
Hypher
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Friend or Enemy
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 03:38:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Hypher on 13/01/2008 03:40:17
lmao, wow that is EPIC
____
You should have stopped reading at the you at the beginning of this sentence. You are now reading my Sig. |
MysticNZ
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
The Reckoning.
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 03:42:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Rafus
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=680911
lulz
lawl
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Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
I-Omniscient-I
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 03:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Buchatar
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
You didn't happen to lose a Chimera, did you?
-cackles madly and peers at the thread he just finished reading-
To the OP, check this out briefly. It has a couple of answers...
Your Carrier?
OMG... LMAO... Now THAT is Epic.
***
"Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told, I'm a child of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Free pint of blood for the Dev who agrees |
Saint Apathy
Gallente
exiled souls
Dark Matter Empire
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 04:08:00 -
[64]
Wait a minute... are you the guy who lost the Carrier in the PoS?
Originally by: actionjaxun
What kind of "Pirate" are you? you just show up and knock out my warp drive, and then start shooting me for no reason.
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Saint Apathy
Gallente
exiled souls
Dark Matter Empire
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 04:11:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Feng Schui
I wonder if this whine has anything to do with this =)
Damn, I was beaten to it =(
Originally by: actionjaxun
What kind of "Pirate" are you? you just show up and knock out my warp drive, and then start shooting me for no reason.
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Oregon sinful
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 06:13:00 -
[66]
Yup... the logs don't show anything... except that we stole it
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR STFU |
Najenna
Minmatar
The Taining corp
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 09:53:00 -
[67]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
Please do not remove posts in which a Op has posted. The op is trying to prove a point and if that converstation with a Gm is his only eveidence he has. Then that is his right to share. Its no different then him showing me his paperwork from going to court. Possession is nine tenths of the law and seeing that the OP has possession of that conversation or what was written to him he is the sole owner and should be able to use it. Seeing that C.C.P. does not let us view thier server logs how do we know the information isn't there and that they just wont reimburse him for his loss? Just cause a dev/gm says he can't find it don't mean its not there.
I am tired of seeing these Dev/Gm takeing away anyway to prove our cases with one another. The petition system is screwed just like the bug reportting is screwed. I love Eve but that is where the love stops. I dont love the Gm's or Devs.. nuff said
I must respectfully say there are 2 gm's and devs that i do care for but the rest??? I wont commment.
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Jennifer X
Dominators
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 10:33:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Najenna
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
Please do not remove posts in which a Op has posted. The op is trying to prove a point and if that converstation with a Gm is his only eveidence he has. Then that is his right to share. Its no different then him showing me his paperwork from going to court. Possession is nine tenths of the law and seeing that the OP has possession of that conversation or what was written to him he is the sole owner and should be able to use it. Seeing that C.C.P. does not let us view thier server logs how do we know the information isn't there and that they just wont reimburse him for his loss? Just cause a dev/gm says he can't find it don't mean its not there.
I am tired of seeing these Dev/Gm takeing away anyway to prove our cases with one another. The petition system is screwed just like the bug reportting is screwed. I love Eve but that is where the love stops. I dont love the Gm's or Devs.. nuff said
I must respectfully say there are 2 gm's and devs that i do care for but the rest??? I wont commment.
You all should stop your whining. Everyone petitions even when it doesnt deserve to be a petition. GM's need to be strict to keep EVE in balance. They don't need to proof us anything. They decide, live with it. We all got screwed at least once by a GM.
Tell us where (region) and what you lost and someone might even be able to verify the steal.
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Morgan La'Chance
Caldari
Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:34:00 -
[69]
It's ok, no-one cares about what someone from KOS has to say anyways.
Also, this is not a GM issue - it's a "couple of guys guessed the POS password and nicked the carrier, good going good going" issue.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Sex Panthers
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 10:38:00 -
[70]
I love being in epic threads
You the guys that made the forcefield pass the same name as the POS? 
Originally by: Tarminic
Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.
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iamahaulerbaby
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Posted - 2008.01.13 10:41:00 -
[71]
funny, how he is not replying in this thread any more.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 10:45:00 -
[72]
Why can't paying customers post GM communications on the forums? Is CCP that embarassed by their own GMs?
Rhaegor Stormborn
Fleet Admiral - The Volition Cult |
Kamikazi ONE
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 11:27:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Why can't paying customers post GM communications on the forums? Is CCP that embarassed by their own GMs?
I think they are worried they might have to be consistant then.
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Asestorian
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 14:37:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kamikazi ONE
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Why can't paying customers post GM communications on the forums? Is CCP that embarassed by their own GMs?
I think they are worried they might have to be consistant then.
The communications between the GM's and players is supposed to be private. Also note that this forum is privately owned by CCP, and if they decide you aren't allowed to do something on it, you just plain aren't allowed to. Free speech doesn't exist here 
---
MOZO
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.01.13 15:45:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 13/01/2008 15:45:14
Because people would notice that GMs are nicer toward polite people and would scream bias that they don't treat petitions which open with insults the same way as ones which say please.
----
Anything less is wasted effort |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 16:29:00 -
[76]
whatever you "had" I hope its not contagious
because if coming to the forums and being a tard are the symptoms, it HAS to be bad
Originally by: Cecil Montague
They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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gregory j
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Posted - 2008.01.13 17:30:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 11/01/2008 12:36:50
tbh, i'd rather they save themselves the time and just not reimburse ships ever, no matter why you lost it and instead spend their time both improving the game and performance....
true dat.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 18:16:00 -
[78]
This thread should serve as an example of what responses like "the logs don't show anything" can actually mean when taken in-context. Obviously the OP lost his ship legitimately, but the GMs can't TELL HIM it was stolen not because they didn't know about it, but because it would be violating the privacy of the thief. If the OP does not know his ship was stolen, the GMs cannot reveal to him that it was stolen because that would be providing him with inside information.
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Mila McVeigh
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.01.13 18:20:00 -
[79]
I have a character stuck in space, and I CAN'T even login. GM's refuse to move me.
This is absurd. What is going on with the server today?
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Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
I-Omniscient-I
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 18:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Mila McVeigh
I have a character stuck in space, and I CAN'T even login. GM's refuse to move me.
This is absurd. What is going on with the server today?
Let me guess, you must be in either the Motsu area or Jita. If so, that answers your question on a weekend.
Pick a number and wait in line.
***
"Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told, I'm a child of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Free pint of blood for the Dev who agrees |
Ford Chicago
Omega Enterprises
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 18:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lais Eron
well for one crappy code written by underpaid inexperienced programmers would cause lag and not register on any logs :P
Can you imagine how much lag there would be if CCP had to log all the errors too?
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Ironnight
Caldari
x13
When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.01.13 18:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
Well it would be a great way to point out some of the problems there is with the current system, and we all know that you guys need some help, more manpower or better training.
A few days ago a corpmate got a response on a petition, it took a few weeks and the answer was complete nonsense, sure we all laughed about it, but the sad truth is that this guy dont know the mechanics of the game, or his english is so bad that he didnt understand the question.
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. |
Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
|
Posted - 2008.01.13 19:02:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Tarminic
This thread should serve as an example of what responses like "the logs don't show anything" can actually mean when taken in-context. Obviously the OP lost his ship legitimately, but the GMs can't TELL HIM it was stolen not because they didn't know about it, but because it would be violating the privacy of the thief. If the OP does not know his ship was stolen, the GMs cannot reveal to him that it was stolen because that would be providing him with inside information.
BINGO you get a prize.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.01.14 00:02:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Korizan
Originally by: Tarminic
This thread should serve as an example of what responses like "the logs don't show anything" can actually mean when taken in-context. Obviously the OP lost his ship legitimately, but the GMs can't TELL HIM it was stolen not because they didn't know about it, but because it would be violating the privacy of the thief. If the OP does not know his ship was stolen, the GMs cannot reveal to him that it was stolen because that would be providing him with inside information.
BINGO you get a prize.
they could perfectly tell him EXACTLY what and how it happened (and so he learns from it) except telling him who stole the ship.
besides, if i have to chose one of the following two options, i'll chose (B)
a) apart from the fact that his pos passwd was easily to guess, the op is stupid, he had no fuel, no guns, no tackle, no nothing in his pos
b) his pos was bugged (like many others still are) and that's why it didn't shoot at the invaders. but ofc CCP will not reimburse anything, or they would actually have to admit that the posses still bug sometimes.
example: if your jumpbridges go offline after each downtime, contact GMs (try to get a senior one) until they fix it.
and about CCP not allowing to post chats with GMs... that's major bull**** and only proofs how much they suck by wanting to hide their crap under the carpet.
fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes) |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.01.14 00:26:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
they could perfectly tell him EXACTLY what and how it happened (and so he learns from it) except telling him who stole the ship.
besides, if i have to chose one of the following two options, i'll chose (B)
a) apart from the fact that his pos passwd was easily to guess, the op is stupid, he had no fuel, no guns, no tackle, no nothing in his pos
b) his pos was bugged (like many others still are) and that's why it didn't shoot at the invaders.
Except even telling him that it was stolen constitutes inside information. He now knows that either someone has obtained the POS shield password or that his corporation has a thief. All they can, and should, tell him is that there is a perfectly valid reason for it to not be there.
Quote:
but ofc CCP will not reimburse anything, or they would actually have to admit that the posses still bug sometimes.
Quote:
example: if your jumpbridges go offline after each downtime, contact GMs (try to get a senior one) until they fix it.
Don't these two statement contradict each other - after all, in order for a GM to fix an obvious but its existence must be acknowledged, right?
Maybe it's this here line in the Known Issues page!
Originally by: Known Issues
A small number of linked Jump Bridge Arrays have become broken during a downtime.
Now isn't that interesting.
Hey, this other cool thing you may not know is that if you file a bug report, said bug report can be attacked to a known issue, and you can check back to see if it's being investigated or resolved.
I'll walk you through the process.
1. File bug report
2. Bug hunters will attempt to reproduce it.
3. If they cannot, they will filter it so that it may be re-investigated if the bug is reported again by other players. So in the future if a dozen other people report the bug, they will re-examine it more closely.
4. If they can, it will be attached to a known issue
5. Now I check back and see what's up, and lo and behold!
Bug: Mac OSX 10.4 - Cannot Paste Text into Chat
Status: Fixed in Trinity 1.0.1
AMAZING!
Now what were you saying again?
Quote:
and about CCP not allowing to post chats with GMs... that's major bull**** and only proofs how much they suck by wanting to hide their crap under the carpet.
Or maybe it gives you less of an excuse to blindly flame? Don't take my word for it kids, just check his posting history.
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Monuturattilor
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:11:00 -
[86]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
Since it seems nothing has been done about it, I admire those who dare..
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Arngorf
Minmatar
x13
When Fat Kids Attack
|
Posted - 2008.01.14 01:15:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ironnight
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Please do not post GM communications on the forums.
Well it would be a great way to point out some of the problems there is with the current system, and we all know that you guys need some help, more manpower or better training.
A few days ago a corpmate got a response on a petition, it took a few weeks and the answer was complete nonsense, sure we all laughed about it, but the sad truth is that this guy dont know the mechanics of the game, or his english is so bad that he didnt understand the question.
You ain talking about me are you? 
__________________________________
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CCP Mitnal
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Posted - 2008.01.14 07:00:00 -
[88]
Locked
GM ruling discussion is prohibited in rule 9 of the forum rules.
You can read about them Here
Quote:
# Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
Mitnal,
Community Representative
EVE Online
CCP Games
Email/Netfang |
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