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Chrono Homega Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:51:00 - [1] There is a thing still I don't get it. It is about armor or shield tank a Dominix. Everybody says that 2 Large armor repairer T2. That means 1600 armor regen in 15 seconds, wich means 106.67 hp regen/s. Shield tanking I get about 21000 shield/149 seconds = 140 hpregen/s. But I may multiply this for 2.4 if I am not wrong. That means 336 hp regen/s Armor let me fit hardeners. And yeah, boost my resistances a lot. But anyway... Why is armor so better than shield tanking? 106.67 hp/s, even with hardeners, looks to me too low. Please answer politely, I am just a noob.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:57:00 - [2] The Domi can be both shieldtanked and armortanked. However. If you need to fit an MWD, Disruptor, Web, Cap Booster... then shieldtanking it is no longer as attractive. Also, you can get much higher resists on an armortank so in the end the numbers between an armortank and a shieldtank arn't that different. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Pandares Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:01:00 - [3] Edited by: Pandares on 25/01/2008 13:01:32 Originally by: Chrono Homega Shield tanking I get about 21000 shield/149 seconds = 140 hpregen/s. But I may multiply this for 2.4 if I am not wrong. That means 336 hp regen/s I'm not sure why you'd be able to multiply this by 2.4? Oh and yeh, the resistances is what makes armor tanking good. Let's say you resist 75% of incoming damage, assuming the figures you gave. Then all of a sudden you'd be able to tank 424 dps. If you get 80% resistance, it's 530dps, 90% resistance 1067 dps. 99% resistance, 10,7k dps.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Pandares Edited by: Pandares on 25/01/2008 13:01:32 Originally by: Chrono Homega Shield tanking I get about 21000 shield/149 seconds = 140 hpregen/s. But I may multiply this for 2.4 if I am not wrong. That means 336 hp regen/s I'm not sure why you'd be able to multiply this by 2.4? Because shield recharge isn't linear. It looks more something like this, and at peak recharge (30-35% shield, or somewhere around that) it's about 2.4 times above the average recharge. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Pandares Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:15:00 - [5] damn Thanks for clearing that up. You happen to know if EFT accounts for that?
Miranda Ceres	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:20:00 - [6] Sure you can passive tank for better numbers... but you lose your midslots which are useful to some people. By the way, with better skills you'll get the cycle time on a T2 large repairer down to 9.6 seconds, which means you'll be healing ~ 170 HP/second. One thing to note about passive regen is that the numbers are most impressive at the 30% mark... if you're facing a ship with a big alpha strike, you may run into problems.
Akyla Bears Inc Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:31:00 - [7] Edited by: Akyla on 25/01/2008 13:34:18 It seems to me you're comparing Passive Shield Tanking with Active Armor Tanking. This means you'll be using all your mid and low slots for the shield setup. Furthermore, you'll be using Shield Power Relays and thus killing your cap recharge. You still need cap to fire guns and generally warp around though. For armor tanking however, you'll be using all the lows and 1 mid slot for a cap booster. With resists, I bet you get pretty close or even surpass the shield recharge. And while still having cap. And more mids. For a Battlecruiser, passive shield tanking can get you a much larger tank than any active tanking you do. However, it means you can't do much else. This is very usefull in mission running, but less in PVP. And to Pandares: Yes EFT accounts for this under the Maximum Shield Recharge. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:40:00 - [8] Shield tanking is actually fine for PvE (probably better overall actually since you get your armor as a buffer if things go wrong). Generally speaking, you can build a sturdier shield tank than you can an armor tank (XL booster is roughly as good as 2 large reparirers, and with an amp it isn't even close). Armor tanking is prefered in PvP becauase your tackle gear, and just about every nasty trick in eve is loaded into your midslots, where your shield tank would go. Thus you give up at least 1 tank slot (MWD) to a PvP fit. If you are tackling you give up 2 - 3 (MWD/Web/Disurptor or scrambler) tank slots. Of course, if you aren't going to try to solo and you just need to be DPS support, shield tanking leaves your low slots free for mods to increase your DPS and whatnot.
Mangus Thermopyle Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:15:00 - [9] With the correct setup, shield tanking will give you better DPS, but a slightly more risky tank. Armor tanking will be safer, but you wont be able to fit 6 big guns. Something like this: High: 6350 or 425 proto rails Med: gisti xlarge, 2invuln, 2shield boost amps Low: 3mag stabs, tracking enhancer, 3PDUs Rigs: 3CCC Drones: sentry drones and smaller ones With good skills you will get over 900 DPS with this setup, and with some crystal implants you will tank every lvl4 mission.
xyeLz	Posted - 2008.01.25 16:55:00 - [10] 350 shield tank a second on say EM, 0% resists, means you can sustain 350 dps a second. On 40% resists it's 580 tanked dps. On armor you can easily boost resists to 85%, meaning you can sustain 1000 dps with just 150 armor a second. On 90%, like on a T2 ship, you can sustain 1500 dps with 150 armor a second. Resists are not to be underestimated, when you're doing PvE get two resists up to 85% on both shield and armor, then compare your shield and your armor repair a second. Also, don't forget your shield tank is probably using 100% medium, 100% low and 100% rig slots. Puts some rigs on the armor tank, calculate sustained dps with resists figured in, then look at the numbers again. Also, the shield tank puts your capacitor at like 1% of what it used to be without a passive tank. This means you can't use hybrids (for which a Domi gets a damage bonus). You also can hardly run active shield hardeners, or a web, or a scram or an afterburner or whatever.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:26:00 - [11] Interesting that you can actually passively shield-tank a Dominix. I wonder why everyone whines about the Drake but not about this ship... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.25 18:04:00 - [12] Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 25/01/2008 18:04:27 You can get about a 1000-dps tank vs Serps and Angels (my primary concern) with t2 mission-specific gear and all l5 shield tanking skills (your cap will run out in about 45 minutes, but meh ...) The T2 LAR domi, however, can sustain a better tank against anything but the Angel Cartel. The T2 LAR Domi also, as mentioned, allows the use of railguns (as does an active shield Domi ... what's that look for?). It's also a good deal more useful against Sanshas and Blood Raiders ... No matter how you tank it, resistances are the key! Take, for example, an Ishtar heavy assault cruiser. It gets boosts to its base resists in armor and shield. On armor, the base is 60 EM/68 TH/84 KN/10 EP. If I were to go tank something like Guristas (45% TH, 55% KN damage) with only a single Med Armor Rep II on, I'd be regenerating 33.3 armor/s. However, I would be able to take 180 DPS from the Guristas since I resist their attacks so well. Now, let's add 2 Kin Hardener II, a Therm II, and a DCU II. Now, that 33.3 regeneration per second is countering about 735 incoming Guristas DPS. 1 HP regenerated ~= 22 Damage tanked. Switch the DCU for a second MAR? 66.6 regen, 1260 tanked. And there are far better ways to NPC tank the thing, all based on the resists. Although my example was extreme, it best illustrates WHY resistances are so important in PVE combat, and why you are often told what damage types to fit for in the mission guides. If you don't fit right, your x-thousands of DPS tank will only tank x-hundreds, and you may die. If you're going to do the passive route, there are better ships in the Gallente lineup tbfh. Go play with EFT yourself to find them - I would like not to attract the nerfbots :D
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Chrono Homega There is a thing still I don't get it. It is about armor or shield tank a Dominix. Everybody says that 2 Large armor repairer T2. That means 1600 armor regen in 15 seconds, wich means 106.67 hp regen/s. Shield tanking I get about 21000 shield/149 seconds = 140 hpregen/s. But I may multiply this for 2.4 if I am not wrong. That means 336 hp regen/s Armor let me fit hardeners. And yeah, boost my resistances a lot. But anyway... Why is armor so better than shield tanking? 106.67 hp/s, even with hardeners, looks to me too low. Please answer politely, I am just a noob. This is completely silly. You have SEVEN low slots for armor tanking. Vs. FIVE mids for shield tanking. Which you'll need for a MWD, Web, Scram and probably cap mods. That is for PvP admittedly. Also you failed to account for the skill requirements and bonuses. LAR IIs require Repair Systems IV, which means your repair duration will actually be 12 seconds or better. That means you get 133.33 armor/sec minimum. Hull tanking (103K effective HP) would be better for PvP than shield tanking. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:49:00 - [14] Well I assume he wants PVE, else of course passive shield tank has quite limited uses in PVP. Originally by: Xaen You have SEVEN low slots for armor tanking. Vs. FIVE mids for shield tanking. Which you'll need for a MWD, Web, Scram and probably cap mods. That is for PvP admittedly. This aint true tho. He got 5 mids + 7 lows (shield relays) to shield tank. Where the same is true for armor tanks in PVE, 7 lows + 5 meds (cap rechargers).
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:03:00 - [15] Originally by: Trevor Warps Well I assume he wants PVE, else of course passive shield tank has quite limited uses in PVP. Originally by: Xaen You have SEVEN low slots for armor tanking. Vs. FIVE mids for shield tanking. Which you'll need for a MWD, Web, Scram and probably cap mods. That is for PvP admittedly. This aint true tho. He got 5 mids + 7 lows (shield relays) to shield tank. Where the same is true for armor tanks in PVE, 7 lows + 5 meds (cap rechargers). If you put seven shield power relays in an attempt to prop up your crap tank, you won't even have the capacitor to sustain three active hardeners for 20 minutes. And your omgshield regen won't be enough to make up for you lolresists. It'll only tank 566 raw kinetic DPS (worst resist) (omnitanked) for 18 minutes. Then the hardeners all shut off and you pop. If you're completely braindead and use a full set of 350mm guns too, your hardeners shut off in under 5 minutes. Compare this to a dual LAR II omnitank: It'll tank 527 explosive DPS (worst resist) indefinitely. And it does comparable DPS to the shield tank with its guns on. And you won't look like a complete idiot if the setup appears on a killmail. It's a dumb idea with no place outside of theoretical discussion or WTF-factor. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:15:00 - [16] Edited by: Pottsey on 25/01/2008 21:21:17 ôIf you put seven shield power relays in an attempt to prop up your crap tank, you won't even have the capacitor to sustain three active hardeners for 20 minutes.ö You know how dual amour tanks tend to use a cap booster for cap? Well as passive tank can use one as well only it works better. Or you could just fit 2 or 3 PDS and the rest SPR and have stable cap without the cap booster. The passive tank also gets a massive HP regen boost for being in a gang. ôIt's a dumb idea with no place outside of theoretical discussion or WTF-factor.ö Or you know your enemy is going use massive cap drain and you want to be cap immune. Or you want to fit 4 damage mods and do decent damage in PvE something the amour tank struggles with when useing railguns. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Ogul Interesting that you can actually passively shield-tank a Dominix. I wonder why everyone whines about the Drake but not about this ship... because in some peoples minds when you cant solopwn a noob in a battlecrusier with nos its not fair i personally at those posts
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:30:00 - [18] Edited by: Pottsey on 25/01/2008 21:32:02 ôCompare this to a dual LAR II omnitank:" From what I can see the passive tank has the better tank, is cap stable and does as much if not more damage, can you give your full amour tank setup for PvE? Passive shield tanking guide click here
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 25/01/2008 21:21:17 ôIf you put seven shield power relays in an attempt to prop up your crap tank, you won't even have the capacitor to sustain three active hardeners for 20 minutes.ö You know how dual amour tanks tend to use a cap booster for cap? Well as passive tank can use one as well only it works better. Or you could just fit 2 or 3 PDS and the rest SPR and have stable cap without the cap booster. The passive tank also gets a massive HP regen boost for being in a gang. ôIt's a dumb idea with no place outside of theoretical discussion or WTF-factor.ö Or you know your enemy is going use massive cap drain and you want to be cap immune. Or you want to fit 4 damage mods and do decent damage in PvE something the amour tank struggles with when useing railguns. a) dual armor tanks are fine on passive cap regen actually, requires a bunch of ccc rigs and cap rechargers though (for pve set up, most pvp ships dual or single rep have cap boosters though) b) 5 sprII 2pdsII does make a 3 hardener setup cap stable c) in gang 2% shield hp per level of seige warfare trained by the squad booster. d) shield tanked domi can fit blasters, damage mods, and tank. 6 neutrons on a domi + several mfs + 5 ogres and ouch. the tank is by no means amazing, or maybe not even good. depending on what you fight it will be good enough, it will last long enough to get remote repped, or you would have melted anyways.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:24:00 - [20] Being in a gang is 15% hitpoints if you have mindlink. Pretty good for a HP regen boost and hitpoint buffer. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zxenis Caldari Devious - Special Forces Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.25 23:50:00 - [21] i passively shield tank a domi but thats only because I inherited the skills from flying my hulk in 0.0 power shield relays in the lows, nothing but resists in the middles and i can rat in 0.0 all day long. i was kinda suprised the setup worked when i first strapped it on. uppers are only salvagers and tractors, hehe down side is if i warp around to much from belt to belt lookin for rats, i do run the risk of running out of cap as it regens so freakin slow and I move so sloow, i really wanna fit guns and an ab/mwd eventually but it works till I can get around to training my armor tanking skills. its just gotta wait behind drones, guns, navigation etc...... If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527)
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton b) 5 sprII 2pdsII does make a 3 hardener setup cap stable No it doesn't. It lasts almost over an hour with no guns, but with no guns it does less DPS than an armor tank and has about two thirds the tank as the armor tanked domi. And if you turn guns on, it lasts a handful of minutes, even with no invuln II. Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton c) in gang 2% shield hp per level of seige warfare trained by the squad booster. You can't compare two things and then throw in more variables on one side. It's not the scientific method. Sure it benefits more from shield bonus gang mods, but the armor tank benefits from the armor one. What's your point? Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton d) shield tanked domi can fit blasters, damage mods, and tank. 6 neutrons on a domi + several mfs + 5 ogres and ouch. the tank is by no means amazing, or maybe not even good. depending on what you fight it will be good enough, it will last long enough to get remote repped, or you would have melted anyways. You go right ahead and do that. I'll bring my domi and we'll see who wins. (Hint: Your blasters will cause your hardeners to shut off real damn fast) -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Beness Absolutely No Retreat Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:07:00 - [23] KOS, that's Tenerifis, which is Angels. That's fairly distributed damage type, impressive.
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 25/01/2008 21:32:02 ôCompare this to a dual LAR II omnitank:" From what I can see the passive tank has the better tank, is cap stable and does as much if not more damage, can you give your full amour tank setup for PvE? Armor Shield Shield has a lesser tank and more gank....for 5 minutes and 12 seconds, then it loses the gank advantage or its tank fails completely. With no guns running it lasts 42 minutes and still isn't a better tank. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Beness KOS, that's Tenerifis, which is Angels. That's fairly distributed damage type, impressive. Actually they're mostly explosive, which is why a shield tank has it easy. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.26 00:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 25/01/2008 21:32:02 ôCompare this to a dual LAR II omnitank:" From what I can see the passive tank has the better tank, is cap stable and does as much if not more damage, can you give your full amour tank setup for PvE? Armor Shield Shield has a lesser tank and more gank....for 5 minutes and 12 seconds, then it loses the gank advantage or its tank fails completely. With no guns running it lasts 42 minutes and still isn't a better tank. Not the greatest of setups, but result is the same as what I've found. Shield tank of any kind on domi just doesn't get close to a dual LAR, 4 hardener armour tank. Both are capable of being cap stable, but the armour tank seems to be capable of double the tankable dps, although deals slightly less of it.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.26 01:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton b) 5 sprII 2pdsII does make a 3 hardener setup cap stable No it doesn't. It lasts almost over an hour with no guns, but with no guns it does less DPS than an armor tank and has about two thirds the tank as the armor tanked domi. And if you turn guns on, it lasts a handful of minutes, even with no invuln II. Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton c) in gang 2% shield hp per level of seige warfare trained by the squad booster. You can't compare two things and then throw in more variables on one side. It's not the scientific method. Sure it benefits more from shield bonus gang mods, but the armor tank benefits from the armor one. What's your point? Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton d) shield tanked domi can fit blasters, damage mods, and tank. 6 neutrons on a domi + several mfs + 5 ogres and ouch. the tank is by no means amazing, or maybe not even good. depending on what you fight it will be good enough, it will last long enough to get remote repped, or you would have melted anyways. You go right ahead and do that. I'll bring my domi and we'll see who wins. (Hint: Your blasters will cause your hardeners to shut off real damn fast) right ment 4 sprII 2 pds II <_< and sorry but whats the unscientific part of comparing gang bonuses? and 10% extra shield hp will help a passive tank more than 10% armor hp. and see the you would have melted anyways section. although the cap will hold for blasters.... note that i didnt say passive shield tank
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.26 02:17:00 - [28] Edited by: Xaen on 26/01/2008 02:23:23 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton right ment 4 sprII 2 pds II <_< Yeah, that holds until you light up a gun. But the tank is nothing remarkable and the DPS is lower than that of an armor tank. So why not just armor tank and do both better? Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton and sorry but whats the unscientific part of comparing gang bonuses? and 10% extra shield hp will help a passive tank more than 10% armor hp. Because the scientific method involves eliminating all variables but the one you're studying. Gang bonuses introduce more variables unnecessarily. If you're going to compare tanks, compare tanks. Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton and see the you would have melted anyways section. although the cap will hold for blasters.... note that i didnt say passive shield tank Sure, an active shield tank works way better! convo me in game and we'll pit my domi against yours and see what happens. edit: typo -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Pan Zhu'Liang	Posted - 2008.01.26 03:04:00 - [29] cause duking it out will demonstrate the value of a pve settup how?
Xaen Caldari Black Podding	Posted - 2008.01.26 03:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang cause duking it out will demonstrate the value of a pve settup how? With the Komedy mail, of course. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes

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