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Onchas Erivvia
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:41:00 -
[31]
A few things to get out of the way first,
1) you COULD get rid of capital ships, but I don't think the economics work out as well,
2) I think Titans and Motherships were poorly implemented. There should have been only one of them, and it should have been a deployable station. Motherships have a place. Something with a big hold, a clone vat, and a jump portal. Dooms Day Devices, no.
Okay, so here's the quick and dirty of how Eve works and why a small group shouldn't be allowed to hold space.
Ratting, mining, and mission running is how individual, empire players make isk. Most people just move to 0.0 space and do the same thing.
The big, successful alliances don't maintain themselves by mining and ratting incomes. Crap alliances may do that -- charging a significant tax at station. But the serious players in the game, don't. Why? Because you can't actually run an alliance and hold space against any sort of opposition that way. Some have managed to hold on by occupying crap space or having strong presence in a generally weak timezone (US player-based alliances in particular).
For the big, serious-business alliances Isk is made from moon minerals. They put POSes in space to mine moon minerals. Set up other POSes to run reactions. Set up other poses to run more reactions. Set up other poses to run manufacturing jobs that take the reactions and make them into tech2 components (note components, that's mod modules and ships, that components).
The real isk in Eve isn't made off Tech2 ships and mods. The real isk is made by making components. Invention didn't do one lick to influence the tech2 component market. If anything, it raised those prices by increasing the market for tech2-build components.
Moon mining, reactions, build-jobs are all approximately weekly-cycles. If "a few players" can take over control of a system in a few hours a few things happen. 1) you lose station ownership WAAAAY to fast, causing timezone imbalances, 2) you don't allow production cycles to occur.
Sovereignty isn't about having POSes up or owning stations. Yeah, those are convenient. Controlling space in 0.0 isn't about ratting faction spawns or mining Crokite. It's about access moon minerals and making the piles and piles of isk.
POSes are expensive to run. Too much for a small number of players to both control space and run the POSes and sell the products and make isk at the same time. POSes, moon mining, and sovereignty are all large-group tasks. Why? Because the amount of isk you can make is insanely high.
Whenever that kind of isk-making potential is possible you MUST have large sinks. Dreadnaughts were brought in to be POS killers. Carriers, POS reppers and ships to counter-smaller ships moving in to attack Dreads.
Those ships represent the isk sinks for corporations and alliances who are involved in POS-ownership and Moon mining and Tech2 component production.
Vast money making potential requires vast cost centres, or you'd really see inflation (or stagflation as mrtankk is trying to spin it).
Again, titans and motherships dumb. POS warfare, Dreads, and Carriers not dumb. The game mechanics still need to get fixed.
The reason why small groups shouldn't be able to do it is the isk making potential is huge because the market is huge.
The game needs skill sinks, the same way it needs isk sinks. Capital ships represent a capital investment. They're needed by Alliances to secure and maintain their POS structures. Those structures exist to feed the game with tech2 components, and to feed the alliances isk. It's all about game content and giving people a reason to fight who live across timezones and on a cycle (about a week) that makes sense for the average player's schedules.
Capitals aren't the end game of Eve. Capitals are just a way of securing economic control. And Economic control is content.
Welcome to Eve!
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"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
'Teh Onchinator' |
Karlemgne
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:42:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Dionisius
@The people that are saying, go band with others and form alliances and gank and MMO's are not for solo play, etc etc and so forth...
The questions are...
a) Why should he play the game the way you want it?
b) Where is it written that a MMO, any MMO should be played with a bunch of people giving orders to others in TS?
c)What happened to the association of FUN with GAMES?
GF:Sugar come here i gotz thingz to show ya...
SOMEONE: Not nowz love, i gotz to mine for my bossez in my big allianz so that he can have his capital shipz and we be big on za internet gamez.
A-*******-men
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:46:00 -
[33]
even if replying to flamebat is bad but hek: OP = failage.
next tread plz!
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Karlemgne
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.28 20:48:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 28/01/2008 20:49:35
Originally by: Coniglietta Magica
Originally by: Mrtankk
This game needs to have cap ships removed.
Remove yourself. If the game is not to your liking go away. Don't play. Don't **** up other peoples experience.. Stay in empire until you are ready to play with the big toys.
Because that makes sense. You don't like everything about this game as it exists now, leave.
We should then, remove the testing, game development, and feedback forums.
And next time I see you complain about ANYTHING you should be tossed from EVE. Because, as you suggest, don't like how things are now? Leave.
Fortunately, the world doesn't actually work that way. We can be members of a community, and players of a game, and like our surroundings for the most part, but still offer suggestions to make it better.
Now go home, and grow up, because the "love it or leave it" mentality is infantile.
-Karlemgne
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.01.28 21:17:00 -
[35]
How about a new HIC script: the Cyno Jammer.
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Ursula LeGuinn
Versus Gloria Omnis
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
A few things to get out of the way first...
That was by far the most educational post in this whole thread. Thanks!
________________
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Fanjita
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Orb Lati
I thought i would remind the poster of how it was prior to sov and POS warfare but the realized that would be pointless so ill just summarize.
F**K OFF
you mean really good and a lot better experience than it is now?
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Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:42:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Turin on 28/01/2008 22:43:58
While I think the OP is a bit... ah... over the top. I cant say I entirely disagree with him. Titans are stupid. Just dumb, silly ships that quite frankly unbalance the game.
How the hell do you take a system when your enemy has so many titans they are DD'ing every 10 minutes? It CAN be done. But is that FUN? Certainly not.
I enjoy Cap and POS warfare. I recognize though, that in its current configuration, it will simply eliminate smaller alliances.
EVE is sadly all about numbers. He who has the most numbers ( almost always ) wins. Until EVE finds a way to make you WANT to split up your forces, then no one is going to. So, your going to have 100 cap ships in system, and people gong nuts.
I think thats a shame personally. Sure the little guy can help, but not very effectually.
This game is currently build to encourage HUGE numbers, hell, REQUIRE them. But the servers cannot take it.
The OP is partially correct. TITANS and MOMS are DUMB. Carriers and Titans.... eh. I dunno. I could honestly say I would be glad to see them go and not be unhappy about it.
You could actually apply economic warfare to enemies. Kill them taking supplies back to 0.0. Make things HURT. I dunno. I enjoy my cap ships, but I can see how most people will not enjoy having to deal with them. They make it FAR to easy for bigger alliances to pick on smaller guys, and not really leaving the smaller guys any options. If you have a 500 man alliance, and someone is dropping 100 cap ships a day on you, odds are you are eventually going to say screw it and not login.
This game is supposed to be about FUN, and POS / Cap warefare remove that fun for MANY people ( not all )
Also, the tend of the EVE community, the second anyone looks for ANY change to gameplay, gets flamed, smashed, and forum agrod to crap, is stupid.
Why is ANY ask for a change by ANYONE regarding ANYTHING always met with a "STFO CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF!" "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT PLAY!!!"
I would like to think I play with a more mature player base. Crap like this sadly paints most of you as 2 year olds.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:50:00 -
[39]
It's as Turin said numbers win the majority of the time. Until there is a reason to use smaller amounts of capitals and other ships there really is no downside to m0ar ships. Why would i want to fly a smaller ship when a doomsday can just rock my face in?
Then again if CCP caves to the whiners and completely neuters capitals after i spend the next 3+ months training for them pff im gone I have better things to do than waste even more time.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.28 22:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
It's as Turin said numbers win the majority of the time. Until there is a reason to use smaller amounts of capitals and other ships there really is no downside to m0ar ships. Why would i want to fly a smaller ship when a doomsday can just rock my face in?
Then again if CCP caves to the whiners and completely neuters capitals after i spend the next 3+ months training for them pff im gone I have better things to do than waste even more time.
So, you acknowledge the problem, but will quit if they fix it? Seems a bit of a counter action to me.
_________________________________
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:06:00 -
[41]
Replace the words "capital ships" with "battleships" in your OP.
Then with "battlecruisers". Then with "cruisers". And so on.
Yes, that's right, CCP should remove EVERYTHING EXCEPT T1 FRIGATES from the game !
Since, you know, anything else is unfair or somesuch.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Twin blade
Minmatar
The Triangle
Exa Nation
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:30:00 -
[42]
Its simple just add a Battleship with XL weapons but only make there tracking to low to hit other battleships but be able to but a real punch in a cap ship.
A well balanced BS with XL guns would be great to have in EVE to counter caps as long as it don't lead to them destroying POS's or just going and been able to take a cap out solo.
Maybe even battleship size stealth bomber's with XL torps to do sneaky hit and runs on caps.
Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:33:00 -
[43]
The one thing CCP could do was take away character trading/transfers.
The proliferation of cap ships is largely due to the fact that when a player retires from EVE, very often his good characters are sold off, and thus they live on.
If there were no character trading/transfers, then cap pilots would have to train the skills themselves, and their characters would leave the game when they did.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:38:00 -
[44]
If CCP didn't add bigger and better things then they'd lose older players who had reached the pinnacle of Eve and had nothing else to achieve. Now we have Motherships and Titans. It just makes me wonder what's next. And that's a good thing.
/makes fart noise
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Sing Axe
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:50:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Sing Axe on 28/01/2008 23:51:34
Edited by: Sing Axe on 28/01/2008 23:51:03
Originally by: Mrtankk
This game needs to have cap ships removed. It was a mistake to impliment them, it was a mistake to make them OP. It was a mistake to pretty much require them for 0.0 life.
EVE has suffered the same thing as all other MMO's. Stagflation of the economy, tons and tons and tons of ISK are in game now. Cap ships are more and more obtainable, cheaper, and easier to access for more and more people on a whole.
I don't want to get into the substance, since so many people have already handled that. But you are refuting yourself here. Stagflation would mean rapidly increasing prices while there was no growth in the Eveconomy, and you then complain that cap ships are too cheap and ever more obtainable!
So what you're actually complaining about is the GROWTH of the economy and increased productivity is giving more access to high end ships. Dude, you're doing it wrong!
But what you're complaining about is the biggest evidence that Eve is healthy and thriving. Thanks for coming out, hope you have better luck next time you're on the forums.
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Grytok
moon7empler
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
Edited by: Onchas Erivvia on 28/01/2008 22:22:21
A few things to get out of the way first,
...
winning post!
...
This is why there are capitals. I don't like them and I cba to train for them, because fights including capitals are slow going and boring (I'm down in PB atm and know what I'm talking about :p).
CCP could've introduced other major ISK-sinks I believe and battleships would be the real thing to fight in, but CCP didn't.
Now it's way too late to haul back and remove them.
.
CCP gave us shiny new graphics. Too bad they removed Anti Aliasing for me :\ |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.01.28 23:56:00 -
[47]
Its an awful OP - offering no valid solution.
In my view the problem isnt that Cap ships are a possible 'end game' ship for the veteran player with money to burn - its just that they are currently the only option available.
I was chatting to my corp mates about this, and most didnt really want to fly a dread, or a carrier - that sort of ship just didnt appeal. We generally ageed that Blackops were the way we'd probably progress - and there I see the solution: more capable 'high end' ships - not necessarily 'bigger' but just offering new capabilities at a cost in ISK and training time.
The options here are pretty varied. If a "warp capable cloaking interceptor" existed, but cost a fortune, and took a looong while to train Im sure someone would want that ship, rather than a carrier.
C.
Improved Low Sec Idea!! |
Bane Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Akita T
Replace the words "capital ships" with "battleships" in your OP.
Then with "battlecruisers". Then with "cruisers". And so on.
Yes, that's right, CCP should remove EVERYTHING EXCEPT T1 FRIGATES from the game !
Since, you know, anything else is unfair or somesuch.
This is really not an appropriate analogy.
Almost every skill you will train to be good with a Battleship is good for Battlecruisers and below as well; Sharpshooter, Gunnery, Warhead Upgrades, Heavy Drones, or whatever. It only really takes a couple months to be half decent with a Battleship, though if you spend another three months you will be much better.
Conversely, Capitals require nearly a year of skill training that has absolutely no effect on anything but capital ships and take far longer to train. Advanced Starship Command, Capital Ships, Advanced Drone Interfacing, Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration, Jump Drive Operation/Configuration, and many more are examples. In some cases, even skills that are good for subcapitals don't even directly do anything for capitals; for example, many drone skills don't do anything to fighters, such as Drone Navigation.
Even more importantly, capitals move from system to system through means completely different from subcapitals.
The escalation from Battleship to Carrier or Dread is not the same as Cruiser->BS or Frigate->Cruiser. What people often forget is that while common perception of what capitals are supposed to be like has changed since they were introduced, they were meant to be a specialization appealing to wealthy veteran players, not the baseline or obligation for everyone.
Now CCP has to work to find a good compromise. |
Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:14:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
It's as Turin said numbers win the majority of the time. Until there is a reason to use smaller amounts of capitals and other ships there really is no downside to m0ar ships. Why would i want to fly a smaller ship when a doomsday can just rock my face in?
Then again if CCP caves to the whiners and completely neuters capitals after i spend the next 3+ months training for them pff im gone I have better things to do than waste even more time.
So, you acknowledge the problem, but will quit if they fix it? Seems a bit of a counter action to me.
Actually no. The problem is numbers, not what the numbers are. You will always be more effective with more ships wither they be capitals or not. 20 BS are better than 19 BS...etc.
Figure out how to let a balanced gang (including capitals) be able to complete viable goals and problem solved.
I am arguing against his want for TOTAL removal of caps, the very idea of that is flawed to the extreme. To me BS are fine and dandy, but really I am bored to tears with them. Carriers give me something else to be entertained with on a bigger scale which i like. I enjoy big ships, take that away and eve loses some of it's luster.
So yea remove them, I'm gone. Not as though ccp would do this, but nerfing them enough would be doing just about the same thing.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:24:00 -
[50]
The problem isnt that they exist, its that carrier and MS are way too powerful against sub-capitals. Something's wrong when a gate camp can get 2 or 3 times more firepower due to the presence of a couple of rich, high-SP players who are hiding at a safe. I also agree that POS wars are lame, and that and sov needs to be revisited. Essentially, we need RMR 2.0.
_________________
[IMAGE REMOVED]
-- aka Cpt Bogus --
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Cornette
Gallente
Black Screen of Death
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Alz Shado
How about a new HIC script: the Cyno Jammer.
I vote yes to that. Does not have to block a whole system, just the grid the hictor is at to stop people hot dropping moms and carriers on your head.
so signed.
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consider telos
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:45:00 -
[52]
Omg, there's jedi's everywhere now. I spent ages getting holocrons to unlock my force sensitive slot! It was hard to get there but it kept it special. Now you've removed them and added this stupid village. Now everyone is grinding up jedi and it's diluting this a-symmetric skew, you built into the faulty game mechanics, by creating an easily obtainable alpha class. When are you going to reinstate the force ranking system! You said you'd do it last publish.. 
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Del Narveux
The problem isnt that they exist, its that carrier and MS are way too powerful against sub-capitals. Something's wrong when a gate camp can get 2 or 3 times more firepower due to the presence of a couple of rich, high-SP players who are hiding at a safe. I also agree that POS wars are lame, and that and sov needs to be revisited. Essentially, we need RMR 2.0.
It's a CAPITAL ship! It would just be a battleship is a battleship could take it out 
Originally by: Sharupak
When you go to vote, you are voting on whether you want to bend over or get on your knees.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mnem0nic
Removed. Please refrain form "Can I have your stuff" comments. Navigator
Welcome to EvE |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.29 00:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cornette
Originally by: Alz Shado
How about a new HIC script: the Cyno Jammer.
I vote yes to that. Does not have to block a whole system, just the grid the hictor is at to stop people hot dropping moms and carriers on your head.
so signed.
And then people would just field 20 carriers remote repping a few hics, you'd never be able to beat them.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.29 01:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Del Narveux
The problem isnt that they exist, its that carrier and MS are way too powerful against sub-capitals. Something's wrong when a gate camp can get 2 or 3 times more firepower due to the presence of a couple of rich, high-SP players who are hiding at a safe.
Bring ewar, bring gank bs's, bring your own capitals?
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Fanjita
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Posted - 2008.01.29 02:08:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Alowishus
If CCP didn't add bigger and better things then they'd lose older players who had reached the pinnacle of Eve and had nothing else to achieve. Now we have Motherships and Titans. It just makes me wonder what's next. And that's a good thing.
thats a load of crap as a 60 mill sp player, playing for four years i cant fly caps and dont intend to they are crap and lead you to a 200 man gang sitting on a gate for 20 minutes wondering where the hostiles are till you wake up in a station. I play eve for the PVP not the lagfests unfortunately there isnt much pvp in eve anymore unless your into trade and the market which im not.
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Daelorn
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.29 02:11:00 -
[58]
RAWL BACK TO CASTOR!!
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Rabbitgod
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.01.29 04:50:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Rabbitgod on 29/01/2008 04:50:54
Their is so much fail in this thread that it actually hurts to read it.
Cap ship poplosions are too pretty to justify removing them.
...and thats what happen to ASCN while you were gone for a year.
Rabbitgod: Alcoholism, I has it now.
---{24th member of the 23}---
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.29 06:35:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 29/01/2008 06:35:52
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mrtankk
EVE has suffered the same thing as all other MMO's. Stagflation of the economy, tons and tons and tons of ISK are in game now. Cap ships are more and more obtainable, cheaper, and easier to access for more and more people on a whole.
Stagflation (i.e. stagnation combined with inflation) would mean people have less and less means to acquire money (i.e. unemployment or somesuch), and that accrued wealth in cash form is depreciating (i.e. prices RISE).
Since you have pointed out that "stuff" (including capitals) are getting cheaper, and that nobody really has a problem getting them... well... I see no stagnation, no inflation, and definetely no "stagflation" as you so put it.
Before spouting big words, you might want to research their meaning next time, and see if the meaning fits the situation you are trying to describe.
Of course, Akita beats me to the punch. . .
Originally by: Cornette
Originally by: Alz Shado
How about a new HIC script: the Cyno Jammer.
I vote yes to that. Does not have to block a whole system, just the grid the hictor is at to stop people hot dropping moms and carriers on your head.
so signed.
That. . . could be interesting. Not sure what penalties it would need (no remote aid, to prevent Gamesguy's doomsday scenario of 20 Carriers repping the thing while it permablocks a grid), but that could definitely be an interesting ability.
--------------------
ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
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