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300 People Fight , when will that be possible ?

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Tuberider Caldari Pothouse Cartel	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:11:00 - [61] Good start would be removing all those cans from belts. After being in 0.0 for 3 years i recently returned to empire and was totally horrified by the gsc problem there it might remove some stress from the servers for starters
Vladt	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:24:00 - [62] At least that would be a start , doing nothing helps none, and If we are serious that infi Think will not come soon , as they have to rip apart there code and that is really a dangerous Problem
Red Desire	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:54:00 - [63] Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:58 Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:15 Need for speed failed on all levels, comparing the performance of 2 years ago, I don't know where the new hardware, new code went .. it's sure didn't get us any speed. And for all who don't get in large fleet battles, it's all based on luck.. some get small lag 10-30 seconds and other get 10-30 minutes delay and get killed by the ones without lag, also you can stay as much as 40-60 minutes to load the overview... etc Need for speed was just a catchy name, the need increased but the performance never did. Now to be fair, probably CCP tries to find a solution for lag but after 2 years, you can reach only 2 conclusions : - they are not trying hard enough and resources are not allocated for this MAJOR issue - they can't do nothing about it, so they lie us that they are adding hardware and fixes and what they "forget" to tell us is: that they are adding them only in their head(fantasy fixes&harware ftw)
Zothike Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:55:00 - [64] i think making stacking item and repackaging remotely possible even in hostile station would help, (repackaging not damaged item) as me for example i have several stockpile of stuff in various station that go beyond the 1000 theorical limit , that would easily go under 700 if it was possible (as it was one year or so ago)
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:19:00 - [65] "300 People Fight , when will that be possible ?" Never. Next thread. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Red Desire Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:58 Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:15 Need for speed failed on all levels, comparing the performance of 2 years ago, I don't know where the new hardware, new code went .. it's sure didn't get us any speed. And for all who don't get in large fleet battles, it's all based on luck.. some get small lag 10-30 seconds and other get 10-30 minutes delay and get killed by the ones without lag, also you can stay as much as 40-60 minutes to load the overview... etc Need for speed was just a catchy name, the need increased but the performance never did. Now to be fair, probably CCP tries to find a solution for lag but after 2 years, you can reach only 2 conclusions : - they are not trying hard enough and resources are not allocated for this MAJOR issue - they can't do nothing about it, so they lie us that they are adding hardware and fixes and what they "forget" to tell us is: that they are adding them only in their head(fantasy fixes&harware ftw) Part of the problem seems to be that whilst the code + hardware is improved, the number of players has risen lots. Hell i'm not than old and i can remember 20,000 players online an evening being a lot, now it averages more around 30,000 - 35,000. Hopefully with the upcoming infiniband/server upgrade, a noticeable improvement will be seen.
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Vladt Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 12:12:02 Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ? Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ? PS: they planing to put EVE on the Steam Plattform and are pushing the "marketing" in Germany too. So guess what they getting money BUT have no solution for the current LAG Problems ?! We are patiant BUT I want to know when to expect RESULTS no Marketing s!&%, IF YOU HAVE NO FOUNDARY THE SKYSCRAPER YOU ARE PLANING, WILL "KILL" YOU I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! ) Regards The amswer is NO. Will never happen. Dwi Cymraig According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians. Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:55:00 - [68] forget about it, 300? try problems with 65 in system and maybe 35 people fighting... tried to have a fight last night and the grid was so screwed up, i could see friendlies 600km away but not hostile targets 75km away right in front of the station. It was just unbelievable, this game is a pile of horse poo poo right now
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:06:00 - [69] Originally by: Vladt Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 12:12:02 Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ? Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ? PS: they planing to put EVE on the Steam Plattform and are pushing the "marketing" in Germany too. So guess what they getting money BUT have no solution for the current LAG Problems ?! We are patiant BUT I want to know when to expect RESULTS no Marketing s!&%, IF YOU HAVE NO FOUNDARY THE SKYSCRAPER YOU ARE PLANING, WILL "KILL" YOU I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! ) Regards If there is a solution to lagfests, at present it lies in design not technology. Some kind of cap on ships in a battle.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:08:00 - [70] It doesn't seem like a real shocker that fights that large don't work well in eve, they don't work any better (or at all) in other MMOs. So I guess you can talk crap about their coding, infrastructure, or whatever but at least it's a challenge they've chosen to take on where other MMOs shy away.
LORD Gun	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:15:00 - [71] 300??? how about when can 20 vs 20 fight without lag??? ccp has broken the game and is now just putting stuff in to get new subscribers. they stopped working on fixing the things to lets us play lag free years ago.
Zero X942	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:17:00 - [72] Edited by: Zero X942 on 07/02/2008 13:25:08 CCP can't answer this. You have to ask your ISP, ATI, Intel, and any other hardware company. Lag can either come from the server not being able to stream data, or your computer being unable to handle all the data. Here's an experiment, go into EVE with a framerate counter and a bandwidth monitor. Get 300 people to gather together. Heck, go into any MMORPG and try it.
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:24:00 - [73] Theres a mathematical equasion that basically goes for every new thing on the grid, its a new thing each item must tell each other item about its interactions with. Its infernal and it can't be defeated. Rather than trying to "beat" the lag beast, CCP needs to learn how to make peace and tame it. Part of the problem is the real-timey ness of it all. When you get lag, you start button mashing. When you start button mashing, things get even laggier. On it goes. In my view CCP needs to establish a minimum "acceptable" lag for varying size battles and stick with it. For a 20 vs 20 man lag, a couple seconds lag is probably entirely acceptable. For a 200man vs 200man lag, ten seconds lag, whilst still deeply annoying, is a damn sight better than the "5 minute module activation" crap we get. How to achieve this? Do it at "macho-net" before it even hits the node. For things like module activation, bundle it up in a single request that gets processed every 10 seconds only (for a 200vs200). Same for targetting, and so on. Create a queue for each ship, on a separate "proxy" process, that filters out all the mashing and contradiction, and every ten seconds dump it into the node, then return the results. Use dead-reckoning processing at the client to smooth it out. Ten seconds is still a ***, but for a big fleet fight, one can live with it. Having the whole thing freeze up to all hell is not. The neat thing is, you could in theory then scale up to 1000vs1000 man fights, at , say, one minute lag, and whilst it'd be painful I'd still attend because it'd be epic**. But I'm convinced the trick is to just break up the lag into slices with a predictable "quantum" of time. Lag can never be beaten, but it can be tamed and made predictable. -----------
whoyoulookingat Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:38:00 - [74] Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 07/02/2008 13:39:14 Imagine if you will, 300 pilots all ready to slog it out on a gate.. and they start.. mr US pilot locks a target mr Austrian Locks mr Russian Locks mr French Locks that's only 4 locks from 4 different points on Earth, travelling all the way back to the Eve servers then all the way back to their pc's to say "yep, Eve has recognised your command and you have now locked someone". Now add 300 people all doing the same and what do you think happens? Add network traffic to this flowing data and BAM we have lag. Then you have those 300 little paws all clicking and pushing buttons to shoot/web/MWD/GTFO and latency then rears its ugly head.. you pressed F1 but due to god knows how many other commands it's now in line waiting to be read from the Eve Server.. In panic, you hit it again & again & then others get the same and they all start smashing their keys.. Get the picture?? Not until we all have 0ms ping times and quantum cpu's will the main bulk of lag vanish, but add in you own pc, connection type, ISP, Eve Servers and you'll see that lag will always be there in some form. _____________________________________ Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
Red Desire	Posted - 2008.02.07 14:50:00 - [75] Originally by: whoyoulookingat Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 07/02/2008 13:39:14 Imagine if you will, 300 pilots all ready to slog it out on a gate.. and they start.. mr US pilot locks a target mr Austrian Locks mr Russian Locks mr French Locks ****************** Get the picture?? Not until we all have 0ms ping times and quantum cpu's will the main bulk of lag vanish, but add in you own pc, connection type, ISP, Eve Servers and you'll see that lag will always be there in some form. I'am no expert, but networking is not the problem. There are sites that have 100 of thousands of simultan connections. The problem is not on the "talking" part, it's on the thinking part. All that battle information needs to be proccessed, you know.. ships in space firing,moving,exploding etc... It doesn't matter if we all have been in the same room. The problem comes from the server not beeing able to proccess information fast enough and to some it doesn't send any information.
Jolliejoe Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.07 15:33:00 - [76] It is quiet obvious that CCP is not worried about anything posted in these forums as they probably say it is only a small percentage of people complaining... In this their logic is so flawed because most people who don't even respond anymore have long given up. CCP feels they can get away with **ty customer support because some other MMO's have worse customer support (so I've been told although I find that hard to believe). I've felt for a long time that nothing that is being said here by anyone in the forums is going to make jack ** difference. They will simply ignore it. Or is it just a cultural difference between Iceland and the rest of the world that they have different standards on how to interact with people, react to people's valid complaints?
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:14:00 - [77] there have been hundreds of threads, probably thousands. It is not client side, its not world wide, its the data crunching, and this has been documented and well commented on. if you want to argue that fact go somewhere else. As in any technology there are limitations. My disgust with it all is that i was sold a mighty internet spaceships game chock full of battles and vids of fights and just uber amazingness on a scale you couldnt imagine. Well, we got that in principle but it falls far short. At this point, i would rather go back and fire up Wing Commander 3 just cause that internet spaceship game is more reliable. I guess i am more angry with myself for getting hooked on a developers dream and a marketing pitch instead of enjoying a reliable and fun product. And at this point i dont think its my fault for falling sucker, since to really enjoy the game you have to learn and play so much just to ***** the surface. Imagine as a kid you watch your father drive around a ferrari, and for like 3 years you watch and can't wait to get behind the wheel. Finally after such a long wait, he tosses you the keys. You get into the car and get to the first light and slam on the gas, but it can't beat a civic. You realize that its a kit car with a inline 4 in it instead of the work of art you had been wishing for and dreaming of. 2 centos
Aypse D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:50:00 - [78] I wish that CCP would speak out on this subject. Not a little witty dev comment in some obscure thread (like this one). A real, extensive report. What are their attainable expectations for Eve in reagrds to lag in 6 months, 1 year, and 2 years down the road? What are they currently working on with the software? What hardware options are they looking at? What game design changes are they considering to reduce the necessity of the blob? A comprehensive report on what the hell is going on in regards to this problem that impacts so many of their customers and so much of the high-end content. Originally by: Oveur Eve is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced.
Agif Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:01:00 - [79] For the CCP bashers in here just ask your self have you ever played a game when more than 100 ppl in the same "Grid" are fighting and you have experienced no lagg ? For those who say they were on WOW and have had this with no lagg, you are probably right but does each server for WOW have 35,000 ppl online running on a singular server ? NO Thus CCP is not losing the fight with lagg if anything they have achieved what everyone else wants so give them credit where its due. PS. Sort the fking lagg already --------------- EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:19:00 - [80] Originally by: Aypse I wish that CCP would speak out on this subject. Not a little witty dev comment in some obscure thread (like this one). A real, extensive report. What are their attainable expectations for Eve in reagrds to lag in 6 months, 1 year, and 2 years down the road? What are they currently working on with the software? What hardware options are they looking at? What game design changes are they considering to reduce the necessity of the blob? A comprehensive report on what the hell is going on in regards to this problem that impacts so many of their customers and so much of the high-end content. what CCP have already said: Quote: This is a really good discussion and I am enjoying it, I hope everyone else is getting something out of it too. While initially it may not appear that we are doing anything for large fleet combat with this kind of upgrade that is not true. By splitting the Solar system services apart to allow them to run separate from each other means that a node that is handling a grid on which combat is happen is doing nothing but the combat. This means that it will not have cycles running other processes. Theoretically we could also split out the 'reporting' of results so that one cpu is processing all the combat actions, it them pushes these results to another node that actually handles publishing all the results to the pilots. Thus meaning that we can further split the load handled by each cpu. Once we get the initial framework and structure into place then we can do some amazing things with this technology. It will not all happen at once as we have a lot of work that needs to be done and study into how the different subsystems talk and react to each other. The end goal would be to have certain 'processes/services' spun up dynamically to off load work to. But as said earlier this is not an over night fix, it will be an ongoing process. When we have more solid time lines and roadmap you will get more dev blog's on this topic with more details than my little contributions. Please remember I am not active on this project so can only give you what I have heard and learned, it may not always be 100% accurate but I try. Cheers. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Quote: I think you are starting to see the scale of some of the issues involved in those. They are not impossible, but they certainly involve some pretty serious design and testing. So we are approaching it in a iterative processes. (Below is an example not a real project plan, it is there to give you an idea) Getting the current code base running in an HPC environment. Recode parts of our code base to use HPC functionality rather than our own code. Enable RDMA and start breaking up the current 'Sol' code to work across 'nodes' Enable dynamic moving of nodes. etc etc Keep the ideas running ... you might come up with a new twist that we haven't thought of ... CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=689063
Vladt	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:22:00 - [81] Are you telling us, that Fight 50v50 are Lagfree.. is that the seize we can count on ? Sorry I remeber a fight 2 years ago , in ec-p8r, there where rumors that CCP did a "test" and put the system on one node , well let me tell you we had almost lagfree fight and gues what there where sometime more then 600 People in the system. So what is differnt now that its not working. They advertise "large Scale Battle" in the marketing News all over the world and try to "confince" more players to come to EVE. if the Cluster doest scale then find a solution Please !
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:23:00 - [82] Quote: Actually it's a little more than that. Infiniband is more like liking your computers together is the 'PCI' bus rather than via a network connection. You could plug them in and then point all your network coms at the new cards, but it would not do much. The advantage to be gained from Infinband is that it will allow computers to read from other computers, to push work (threads) out to other machines and get the responses back very very quickly. The structure of a Network card is very different in that using it via TCP mean you need to use the TCP stack architecture and this means dealing with the inherent delays with the processing. The project team doing the infniband implementation as part of the HPC implementation are working very hard to get this out to you as soon as Practicable. But this is a Major recode of large parts of our low level code. We are basically ripping apart our own custom built Cluster management software and replacing it with calls to the HPC system. We are then recoding the software services to make use of the new communications framework allowing rapid transfer of data between Sol nodes and the splitting off of any part of the code that can be threaded. This is not something we can "Just do it" too. We are working hard on this and will get it out when it is ready. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=682229&page=1#16 Quote: Actually smaller grids would not work as with the range of weapons (up to 250km) means that if a grid was 25km then it would have to be able to dynamically talk to all other grids with 10 grids of it ... not a nice network communication layer there. It would add far too much overhead to the code. As for the Code base we regularly refactor our code (for optimization and for code clarity) but it is a rather large code base, in excess of 1 million lines of code (I think we have actually broken 1.2 million lines but not sure). So not all code gets looked at as regularly as other code. But it happens. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=682229&page=6#159 Quote: Couple of thing. We have 3 parts to the cluster - proxies, Sol's and the DB. You are assigned to a single proxy when you connect. It does not change. It is a broker between your client and the Sol nodes you talk to. Sol's handle the game logic, a Sol can handle 1 (or many) solar systems, regional markets, chat channels etc etc. They can by mixed round to handle a mixture of these. Some handle just 1 thing (f.ex Jita). The DB is the DB and is not the 'Limiting' factor for performance at the moment. The limit is that a Sol process is limited to 1 CPU, and this is in our software, not an OS limitation so this would not change if we switched OS's. Part of the complexity is that we basically wrote our own Cluster management software to run EVE. What HPC and OS Clustering would do for us is allow us to use industry standard clustering techniques and software and allow us to focus more of our efforts on other parts of the code base. We would then not have to write our own versions of any new technology that we wanted to use (f.ex infinband interfaces) but could rely on the OS HPC implementation. I have no details on the time frames involved here so can not comment on that. He have a team of people that are really working hard to implement the HPC technology and make all the changes to our code, but it is a Major major job, we basically have to rewrite ALL the in house cluster interface layer to work on HPC style ... not a small task but well worth it in our opinion and already underway. Can't give you any more details as I am not involved in this project at this time but have kept and eye on it. When it is closer to stable design then expect a Large Dev blog with more details. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leade
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:23:00 - [83] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=676348&page=1#8 Quote: Not written in C++. It's in Python like most of EVE and it is very hard to Thread. Do you want a threaded combat engine ... I don't. It has to be handled sequentially or it will cause to many errors. If one thread completed processing before another thread that started sooner and this was then applied (say damage from my guns) but then the thread from you damage came back and said ... my ship was destroyed we have a problem. But moving other parts of the 'solar system' to their own cpu (like station services, etc) and then grouping those services will make a vast improvement. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Quote: I don't know how/why/when the Infini band will be used in the cluster. I do know that there are some very smart people looking at how it will be implemented and that they will do some very good work with it. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=676348
Vladt	Posted - 2008.02.09 14:57:00 - [84] So now we now what isnt working. The baseline to the Stary is that I have seen 600 ! Members fight two years agon in a System called ec-8pr and now after ALL those "optimizations" I can hardly have a fight with 50 to 50. So "need for speed" was a nice marketing Trick , POS Warfare is stronger then ever :( I know that they are "working on it", BUT the point ist what do we get TODAY fight 5v5 fight 10v10 fight 50v50 fight 100v100 ( forget it i know that for sure ;( SO WHERE IS THE BEEF ?!
Vladt	Posted - 2008.02.12 19:35:00 - [85] Seems that ALOT of people are writing something about the "LAG" Problem. Seems like People are sick and tired in hearing the Mantra " CCP is working on it please wait and be patient" .... we want answers and that we want now ;) thanks
MenanceWhite Amarr Fruit Fellatio	Posted - 2008.02.12 19:45:00 - [86] Already possible. Just set it no carriers no drones. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.02.12 20:35:00 - [87] Originally by: Vladt Seems that ALOT of people are writing something about the "LAG" Problem. Seems like People are sick and tired in hearing the Mantra " CCP is working on it please wait and be patient" .... we want answers and that we want now ;) thanks What is this ? Another "too much lag" thread ? You didn't bring any new questions, all these have been answered. Lag will be reduced once they change the server to infiniband hardware and rewrite the code. When ? As soon as possible. Not satisfied with that answer ? Tough luck. Don't pay for eve don't play it anymore until they change to the super computing solution. You are not entitled to anything or in any position to make demands for 'answers', they were already provided earlier anyway. This is a service. Like it ? Pay for it. Don't like it ? Go out, there's a world outside your computer that doesn't involve laggy ships fleet battles. This is also a great game, the most advanced MMO in existence, and being so large/single sharded, the lag problem was bound to happen. You think the devs are just sitting on their asses just raking in the money and lying to us meanwhile? I don't think so! They also can't just clap their hands and magically make lag go away. Be patient, or take a break until they switch to infiniband. B\|tching on the forum ? Yes i'm sure that will help...
Vladt	Posted - 2008.02.29 00:29:00 - [88] Quote: What is this ? Another "too much lag" thread ? You didn't bring any new questions, all these have been answered. Lag will be reduced once they change the server to infiniband hardware and rewrite the code. When ? As soon as possible. Maybe , Guilty in the way that I want to have answers NOW and not only "wait we are working on it" that is not fair. The question I was asking is 1. when will we be able to fly Fleetops in the scalle of 300 ! ? 2. what fleet will have an "accetable" lag so what is the recommended Fleetops Operation ? 50 ? 20 ? 100 ? After all that "need for Speed" , "Drone Nerf " and so one, what battle may we fly with the "current" Server ? That is the question my dear friend , as I also stated above in EC-p8r there were Fleetops with 600 !! Pilots in on System, with almost NO Lag. And that was "prior" to that "new " hardware ;(
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.29 00:36:00 - [89] Originally by: Vladt Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight in a system like everyone would expect ? Never. This should be obvious to everyone by now.
Vladt	Posted - 2008.03.07 06:48:00 - [90] then we should start to make it clear to CCP that we want that to be changed !? The "OLD" Devs seams to be in that "VampireDevelopment" but the problems will not vanishe, just because CCP denies us any Information on the Topic. Look to the EVE General there are "TONS" of Posts asking for the same , but there is "never" a official Statement , sounds like a politician they just wait and hope that the Problem goes away on it own.

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