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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:05:00 -
[1]
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ?
I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! )
Regards
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:06:00 -
[2]
Soon?
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Vladt
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ?
I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! )
Regards
CCP have allready answered this question. Many times. And they are doing the best they can.
Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do..
When it comes to lag, people must start acting more intelligent. CCP do what they can, but when the players dont, this situation is what we are ending up with, I am very much afraid.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
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Cotton Tail
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cotton Tail on 30/01/2008 09:11:38
When they realise the magic switch which makes all lag disappear everywhere has been turned off for the last few years... oh how red their faces will be when they released there was a simple solution to the lag.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 -
[5]
lol ... seems to be like that statement that "duke nukem forever" will be ready SOON, that soon you meant or do you have a much narrowed timeframe
- so many thing where done against "LAG" BUT "WHERE IS THE BEEF" when I cant fight those "BIG FIGHTS" EVE was build to be ?
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:14:00 -
[6]
We've had battles involving 300 people with not too much lag in the past. Say two years ago.
These days, 300 people in a grid means server standstill.
CCP have answered this question many times indeed. THey point out their need for speed intitiative that should battle gameplay lag.
They fail at providing results in any way shape or form with regard to this issue however. Every step they make only covers half the ground they lost while making it.
I don't expect that to change in future either.
[center]
Old blog |
Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 09:18:24
CP have allready answered this question. Many times. And they are doing the best they can.
Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do..
When it comes to lag, people must start acting more intelligent. CCP do what they can, but when the players dont, this situation is what we are ending up with, I am very much afraid.
that is purely politician/marketing talk, if you tell me gang up to X are ok that I can accept , but not " we having answerd that question many times" , " CCP do what they can"
So If I know the underlying Logic of the grid( System Database) and know how to feed the lagmonster I act "inelligent" and can win with fighters/drones ? Is that the way the Game is meant to be played ? If you know how to exploit a system crash is that then "intelligent" ?
Please give me than the skill "System LAG" ...
CCP WHERE IS THE BEEF IN LARGE FLEET BATTLE !!
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:24:00 -
[8]
At least BOB knows how to play "intelligent" and feed the LAGMONSTER in there Favorite. Seems the have more insight in that underlying Database structur through Tests, Expirence or what soever. Gratz , Job well done
( well that is not the game I thought playing , but on that large skale , LAG in combination with Drones/Fighter is the Iwin Button, and whatever CCP tells us that is not "need for speed" )
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R0ze
Setenta Corp
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:26:00 -
[9]
Vladt if you know so many technical terms like 'grid', 'sql' etc why the heck do you ask such questions?
Some basic IT knowledge should be enough to understand what's a 'LAG' and why does it exist. That same basic knowledge should give you an idea that the developers aren't really happy as it is now and are very well informed about the situation and probably doing their best to work around it.
And you should get a picture that a live production system is pretty hard to change.. And NO generic/syntetic tests provide enough to fix everything on some test-system (which is Singularity).
So please stop such threads..
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vladt
At least BOB knows how to play "intelligent" and feed the LAGMONSTER in there Favorite. Seems the have more insight in that underlying Database structur through Tests, Expirence or what soever. Gratz , Job well done
( well that is not the game I thought playing , but on that large skale , LAG in combination with Drones/Fighter is the Iwin Button, and whatever CCP tells us that is not "need for speed" )
Please keep the BoB whines in coad, thank you.
We aren't happy about lag either. But we've been around long enough to kow it won't ever go away, and that you either adapt or forego fleetfights in total.
[center]
Old blog |
Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:35:00 -
[11]
Just because I know those words doesnt mean I know how CCP has constructed EVE.
they have contructed that software around a SQL enviroment, they promise us large scale Battle with less lag and do some changes ! but we are still at the same point as we where 2 Years ago, I see no improvements .
It is nice that they are aware and that they test on the Testserver "Stresstest" but I can never read the resulst , they have "numbers" and "test" ( at least the write from time to time something about that in the dev blog) that you can bet your money on !!
Well , at the end of the day , we still have those "needed" large POS-SHOOT-DOWN-TO-GET-SYSTEM Events and I dont see it that it changed anything
( And I dont want to wait , waited now for 2 Years, with all those saying , "wait they are on it" ... "lag is common, everyone has it" ..."be cool" )
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:41:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Please keep the BoB whines in coad, thank you.
We aren't happy about lag either. But we've been around long enough to kow it won't ever go away, and that you either adapt or forego fleetfights in total.
I meant it in respect , as there has to be a lot of know how involved.
And for my point , LAG seems now a days the primary target not a hassle someone can get along :(
[b]Seems like the E-Mail Traffic, 2 Years ago there where 10% Spam now aday we are talking more like 98% Spam THAT kind of Problem is LAG in Large Fleet Operations[/b
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R0ze
Setenta Corp
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 09:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vladt
And I dont want to wait , waited now for 2 Years, with all those saying , "wait they are on it" ... "lag is common, everyone has it" ..."be cool" )
Well didnt you just answer all your questions?
If you dont like the game why are you still here (no offence)? There are lot of MMORPGS out maybe one of them will satisfy all your quality requirments..
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gaaksel
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.30 10:07:00 -
[14]
Just because something has been said many times in the past does not mean it qualifies as an explanation, let alone a sufficient answer.
People usually blame(ed) us for blobbing and using the lag to our advantadge, i think i can testify for all pilots within my alliance that we would love to see nothing more than fluent fleetbattles happening in this game.
I know a good few occasions where we could not perform the things we had in mind because the lag prevented us from doing it, i think this also holds true for all "large scale" pvpers.
This game is built around pvp , be it on the battlefield or the market, everything you do in this game contributes one way or the other towards pvp. It is totally unacceptable that the core feature of this game is not working as it should.
I think we can also all agree that CCP is aware of this, however i personally think that they do not have a solution.
The way the game changed over the past 2+ years made huge fleets a must have, it made cap ships and super cap ships and absolute requirement for any alliance and subsequently it made it necessary to support these investments with huge conventional fleets.
Add this to the constant addition of new , often bugged , content that also puts strains on the database and the ongoing growth in subscription numbers and you get to understand why the lag will not go away. Not with new hardware, not with infiniband, not with recoding the netcode or the ever famous database optimizations called "need for speed initiative".
EvE started as a niche game in a niche market, it has since then become a regular player in a mass market and this is where to concept eve was designed on starts to hit its limits. There is a reason why all current and future mass market mmos use sharded designs, the buissness model demands high user numbers to justify the immense development costs and the ongoing maintainence costs, these kind of subscription numbers cannot be maintained on single sharded worlds for design reasons as much as for server side hardware reasons.
EvE always was the exception and that is why we love(ed) it, however in its current state it clearly shows where the limits of this approach are to be found.
Now all this said , should we stop complaining ?
No not at all , the opposite is true , we should be more vocal about it , after all it is our time and our money we put into this hobby of ours, if the service we require is not delivered we have all rights to complain. Just we should do it with a bit of distance and be polite while doing it, after all we always have the ultimate opt out strategy only a mouseclick away.
Being vocal however is the only way a customner can show his dissatisfaction with a given product and the more of these complaints show up, the higher gets the pressure on the content provider (CCP) to rethink their design decissions (in game i do not want a sharded EvE just to make this clear) and come up with innovative solutions.
This is what i personally would like to see in the future of eve, less marketing phrases about how the new supercomputer will fix all problems and more changes in the game design itself that allows for said supercomputer to actually improve the game experience significantly.
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Miss Anthropy
The Greater Goon
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 10:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vladt
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Tomorrow at 07:04 EVE time. The voices told me. They mentioned Jita too, but I'm not sure what that means.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.01.30 10:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Drasked
Soon?
doubtfull
I declare war on stupidity |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.30 10:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do..
Guess why other games don't allow it, one guess, three letters, stars with L, ends with G ...
No instanced battles is a good thing, but mechanics and combat elements that encourage blobs is bad. One of them has to go.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Jallem Sims
Minmatar
Exploring Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do..
Guess why other games don't allow it, one guess, three letters, stars with L, ends with G ...
No instanced battles is a good thing, but mechanics and combat elements that encourage blobs is bad. One of them has to go.
The speed nerf will not help the situation... at least with fast ships, the fight is about catching and chasing, not about sniping and sitting with drones out!
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jallem Sims
The speed nerf will not help the situation... at least with fast ships, the fight is about catching and chasing, not about sniping and sitting with drones out!
I have no idea where you got that, good luck with it.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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MOS DEF
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:20:00 -
[20]
There is a very simple answer to this one:
300 person battles will be possible when the subscriber base reached a number where a typical battle consists of 600 people.
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Dian Caro
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:44:00 -
[21]
there was a good thread discussing lag here a few months ago
it boiled down to "their coding sucks" - i mean imagine who would work in an mmorpg startup and what kind of code they could write up for the game and then add a few years, over 30,000 people, and all the new features introduced to EVE and there you're gonna have your lag
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Neon Genesis
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:51:00 -
[22]
I don't really know what they're supposed to say past what they already have. The server is in a sorry state and they're doing their best to get huge hardware upgrades as soon as possible.
_
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:56:00 -
[23]
Quote:
there was a good thread discussing lag here a few months ago
it boiled down to "their coding sucks" - i mean imagine who would work in an mmorpg startup and what kind of code they could write up for the game and then add a few years, over 30,000 people, and all the new features introduced to EVE and there you're gonna have your lag
So they know it is broken but then dont fix it, as they dont know what will happen wenn they change the Code ? So the whole "need-for-speed" is just a Marketing Gag.
Gratz !!
So PVP is only fun at ccp if you Gatecamp, have a small Gank Troop ?
Large Scale has always be the problem, but when they introduced "titans" and Capitals, they didnt do there Homework ! As you can see the effekt quite clear if you ever had the please to wittness such battles.
I cant stress it enough , I want a Quideline how many people can be on one node ?! CCP has the answers how many Players can be in one grid OR one node befor the "LAG" gets to lets say 5 Minutes
It is a big Problem and every Alliance faces it , but in the light of the recent "Marketing Action" of CCP to generate more Members it will get even bigger, SO PLEASE PLEASE find a solution to those Problems and us a Timeline to solve them
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baltec1
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Posted - 2008.01.30 11:59:00 -
[24]
CCP to me is doing a very good job of running large battles, back on galaxies we would lag out with just 40 people. Here I can take part in 400 man battles and its still playable.
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2008.01.30 12:11:00 -
[25]
If you have ever joined in on the test fleet battles on SISI, the answer would be clearly looking you right in the face. As stated all above ( which I believe) CCP are probably doing all they can to allow such battles to happen. The problem is with the rate of people joining eve and more people joining 0.0 corps by the time you can actually have 300 man battles, there will be 600 in the system.
Its like the old saying build it and they will come, just like Jita, they add more servers, local just keeps on getting bigger.
So its a cat and mouse game where as If you look at history of this game and talk to the older players, they really have never caught up, unless there is some technology breakthrough I think its safe to say, this game will always be the way it is, IE .. Laggy in Jita, impossible to have a large fleet battle they way the OP would like to see it happen.
The only problem I have with CCP is that they advertise fleet battles in a way, that one would think its actually possible to have them, when if fact its not. Never has and with the way things are looking based upon EVE history and they will never be.
You think for one min that these big 0.0 alliances are going to being less people to a fight to avoid lag... lol Never :)
So ppl like the OP are going to have the decide if its actually worth it to join in large battles or not.
Come on ask yourself how many people you know who had one time done the whole fleet battle thing, but b/c of lag/desync got tired of losing ships the min you jump in to a system , they got tired of it and left 0.0 battles, b/c it just to the point where it made no sense, to either can't log in, you jump into the system where the battle is taking place and all u see for 2hrs is nothing, blk screen of death  , or you looking at the battle but your ship went pop 15mins ago even though your still in your ship.
Remember the choice is yours with 0.0 fleet battles, I made mine 8months ago and never looked back.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 12:24:00 -
[26]
CCP Atropos
Quote:
Pure hell for EVE? I don't find that many issues with server performance when I play.
Additionally, the press release states that EVE is going to be available to download through Steam.
This doesn't mean that the server is going to explode with new users overnight, so you don't have much to worry about in terms of a sudden drop in performance.
We're constantly aiming to improve the server performance and we are working on doing just that. We can't trickle improvements in, one piece at a time, since this results in a continuous maintenance period for TQ, denying people the ability to play. As such, the performance of the server will stay as it is until such a time as we do roll out an update.
It will happen, that I can guarantee you, and as a gesture of good faith, I give you the projected time of arrival as SoonÖ.
See what I mean, they dont "know the Problem" ... seems that not to much CCP Dev participate now a days in LARGE FLEET Battles, because it is one fleet warps to another and they everthing "freezes" and you teammaid tells you if you are down or not ;( " From a TS : Hey Dud you are in my station ..
Answer : no Im fighting agains that big Something
Answer : no you are here in the station, just reboot and you will see ;( *it the LAGMONSTER )
Quote:
CCP Atropos : It will happen, that I can guarantee you, and as a gesture of good faith, I give you the projected time of arrival as SoonÖ.
We will remeber that Buddy !! Now we have 2008 January !!
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Gigi Barbagrigia
Latent Appliance Fetishists
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Posted - 2008.01.30 12:36:00 -
[27]
Single shard design has nothing to do with how many people can duck it out in one zone. |
Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.01.30 12:48:00 -
[28]
Stain Vs Curse 3 + years ago
_________________________________________________________
My Second EvE Video
Club Seals Not Sandwichs
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Serge Tahlon
Gallente
Templars of Space
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.30 13:30:00 -
[29]
if the current situation does not allow for large gangs clashing what needs to happen is a redesign as to how soverinty works.
the current mechanics require you bring the biggest blob to the party in order to fight over territory.
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Jodi Xios
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.01.30 14:56:00 -
[30]
The game at present is not playable/enjoyable. Lag and de-sync is now happening in small pvp engagements, in a small 10 v 10 figth the other day half our gang de-synced during pvp with only 20 ppl in local....
The most anoying part is that CCP advertise fleet battles and show spectacular fights that simply doesnt happen, all they seem to do now is add more useless content and get as many people to sign up as they can instead of coming up with a solution and putting all ideas into anti lag.
Maybe having severl servers is not such a bad idea after all, at least you get to have decent fights. Imo the server is over crowded now and with recent events its only going to get worse... Fingures crossed for the super comp but until then my a/c's are going inactive.
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Mrs Dwarf
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Posted - 2008.01.30 15:12:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Mrs Dwarf on 30/01/2008 15:18:04
...wrong topic
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 15:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Zothike on 30/01/2008 15:31:34
in planetside there is fight between 400 ppl with almost near noo lag, there is a cap of 144 for each faction and there is 3
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.01.30 15:45:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Kerfira on 30/01/2008 15:51:25
Edited by: Kerfira on 30/01/2008 15:46:46
Originally by: Serge Tahlon
if the current situation does not allow for large gangs clashing what needs to happen is a redesign as to how soverinty works.
Read the infiniband thread. Improving the situation notably will mean multi-CPU grids, and they're not going to do that.
I agree that the mechanics has to change, but the only way they can do that is to (somehow) remove the advantage of blobbing, which a lot of blobbers will hate like the plague.
Something like the titans doomsday pre-nerf (ie. without the high risk), but only working on large groups would be effective. Simply make it WAY too risky to blob!
Another idea I had was to remove intra-alliance/corp standings, and limit alliance sizes to say 2000 accounts. That way, an alliance would be on its own, with everyone else looking the same on the overview, and we'd be without these 'alliances of alliances' which are creating the hugest blobs.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.01.30 16:07:00 -
[34]
Normally I would think that CCP as a company checks there produkt first and fixes those "big bugs" , then and only THEN the can add content on TOP of it.
Afterwise the foundation will break !
The infinband puts the Problem more or less on "hardware" , from my experience with SQL it is always that "hardware" have an effect ( maybe 5 Times ) , SQL Processes or CODE can have an effect of 100-1000 Times faster.
I want to do BIG Scale PVP and I dont want to wait for a killmail, I want to see the fight not just the mails.
I want to know on which scale I can expect a decent fight , just say 50-50 ?
What has to be done to achive that goal ?
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:05:00 -
[35]
so with how many People may I do a "lag free" Large Scale Fight ?
Where are the test on singularity ?
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Andreask14
Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula
Dragons Of Oceans
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:08:00 -
[36]
300 only fight in Thermopylae.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:13:00 -
[37]
I would thing the old "LEAD DEV" are working for White Wolf now a days, so only the "noob" take care about the LAG , and they just dont have the insight in the "OLD" Code.
That is maybe also the reason that we dont see so many post !!
So the fusion with White wolf for "JUST ANOTHER FANTASY MMORPG" is killing softly EVE ;(
Thanks guys
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Lori Carlyle
Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:26:00 -
[38]
Regardless of the pure and simple fact, POS warfiar needs blobs, the server can't deal with that style of warfair.
Need for speed so far has no visable impact, this new server thingy is noware to be seen and unlikly to be givin to the ever expecting playerbase anytime soon, Hell even the dev's have a made a joke of the word soon(tm)
I gave up 0.0 for the reason, waiting for the grid to load is not worth the money, the game is when I can play.
regardless of the answers you seak, just admire the fact you now have bloom and other pointless graphic effects and you will be able to walk around in stations soon, and that should be around the same time as factional warfair, planetery combat and other such "planned but will come when we can be bothered to work and not drink"
Yes i'm bitter, I used to love this game, now I swap skills and go play another game thats WORTH my money now.
----
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:45:00 -
[39]
One Reason ... why can we not "mark" systems as Hotspots like JITA ?
If 2 Parties are fighting over on system for "days" , "weeks" why is it not possible to give that particular system PLUS the next close system a NODE for themself OR a "Mini Cluster " with its own database .
Where are the tests , where are the Answers !! Does CCP has a Qualtity Department ?
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Xonkra
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.02 13:50:00 -
[40]
300!?
THIS IS MADNESS!
Originally by: Illyria Ambri
No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like
*frog clearing throat* "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
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Liam Liam
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Posted - 2008.02.02 15:03:00 -
[41]
Not any time soon that's for sure 30 v 30 at the moment is pushing it
Lag has got worse not better
they just choose to add content and people which will make things worse
If they can't even solve Jitta they've no hope of solving pvp
Theres some easy fixes that would help but they won't impliment any of them
they just choose to add content and people which will make things worse
For example
Fix 1. Remove drones for all except gallante and carriers / capitals adjust damages
etc for ships appropriately ( yes drones cause lag theres no real need for all
races to have them on most ships )
Fix 2. Make a loading screen so if you are lagged going into a system you don't go in
and then see yourself in a pod...or station
you go into a loading screen and only appear in system once you have loaded and
can see yourself and are relatively lag free
Fix 3. Make ship weapons fire in volleys as one or two weapons ( yes tracking 8
different missiles etc takes more comp power than tracking one and multiplying
it by 8 )
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:48:00 -
[42]
It will never happen.
CCP's focus is on adding new players, adding "Second Life"-like gameplay and RMT and on adding unneeded stuff / messing with balance instead of fixing problems.
Sadly, despite the subscriber base growing slower than the speed of modern computers is increasing, EVE is becoming slower in the average fleet fight setting. You can imagine the implications of this.
I think we will see gameplay changes to counter lag before we see any kind of improvement with lag and the current game mechanics.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Pride NL
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vladt
Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 12:12:02
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ?
PS: they planing to put EVE on the Steam Plattform and are pushing the "marketing" in Germany too. So guess what they getting money BUT have no solution for the current LAG Problems ?! We are patiant BUT I want to know when to expect RESULTS no Marketing s!&%, IF YOU HAVE NO FOUNDARY THE SKYSCRAPER YOU ARE PLANING, WILL "KILL" YOU
I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! )
Regards
It has been possible. Few years ago. But with all the noobs joining and CCP getting attention it has gotten worse.
Now they have to bear twice the numbers they did back then...
Arrive. Raise Hell. Leave. |
Pans Exual
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:06:00 -
[44]
The main lag cause is gang bonuses. Every time someone cloaks, decloaks, enters or leaves system, or gets blown up, that's another call the serve makes to recalculate gang skills. go in unganged for the win.
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Faye Valerii
Caldari
Exeunt Omnes
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Posted - 2008.02.03 12:50:00 -
[45]
You can say many bad things about WoW ... But when honor points first got introduced, we could at least fight 100 vs 100 in Southshore. And don't underestimate the server load there, with all those aura's, aoe's, fast movement etc ...
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.04 08:54:00 -
[46]
Well those guys who fight " normally" in a large Fleet battle are the "old ones" as now a days the Capital Blob is very common.
CCP is taking aim now at white wolfe and "new Content" ( great another Damsel ;( )
it leaves them with the wrong resources to cure the LAG. Maybe someone who reads it has more insight in the current development, and can give us a hint. The "Hardware" solution will not bring much good , as we still have "singel" Bottlenecks. The NEW Blade server havent fixed the Problem too !!!
Am I alone with that Idee ? Am I paying not to much to entitle me to get answers ? Where is the beef CCP , or has EVE changed to Carebear Only ;( .... more ships more isk
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Agif
Templar Republic
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 10:25:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Agif on 04/02/2008 10:26:03
Meh scim read the topic and didnt see any mention on this super server IBM & Microsh1te was designing for EVE, and does anyone have a link from ccp on this or is it just rumor based?
/Agif
---------------
EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08 |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 10:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Agif
Edited by: Agif on 04/02/2008 10:26:03
Meh scim read the topic and didnt see any mention on this super server IBM & Microsh1te was designing for EVE, and does anyone have a link from ccp on this or is it just rumor based?
/Agif
Read the Infiniband thread, that's all about the implementation of that and turning the server into a super computer. That'll be the biggest improvement to lag as it will mean multiple nobes per system.
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:29:00 -
[49]
Do you get 300 at Fanfest?
Just asking...
no reason....
--
Anything I said above is subject to the standard provision:
Alts subvert it, and make it untrustworthy. |
Vladt
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 12:15:00 -
[50]
so infiniband should solve the problem ?
is that the answer to why we can play now with 300 Person in a Grid ?
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Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 17:02:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Kerfira on 05/02/2008 17:03:22
Originally by: Jakus Cemendur
Read the Infiniband thread, that's all about the implementation of that and turning the server into a super computer. That'll be the biggest improvement to lag as it will mean multiple nodes per system.
This will NOT solve the problem of fleet battles.
Solving fleet battles will require multiple nodes per GRID, not per system. In the infiniband thread a CCP dev has already said they're not going to do that.
Infiniband will help Jita and busy mission systems, but'll have only a limited (if any at all) effect on fleet battles.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Surreptitious
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 17:35:00 -
[52]
IMO EVE peaks at about 10vs10. Anything more and the lag becomes tangible and impacts the outcome. Anything over 50vs50 is essentially out of the question unless your OK with a slideshow and the outcome being determined by luck.
If you want PVP on a larger scale then just about everyother game on the market does a better job so go pick your poison. CCP has been making claims for the 4+ years Ive been playing and every single one has failed to work or come to fruition. Sure they might make improvements but they are certainly not fixes. And those imporvements are always countered by the growing userbase.
At this point EVE is a numbers game for CCP. How many people can they jam in, how much revenue can they generate before they reach the point of no return. The point where no combination of hardware/software can accomodate the userbase, gameplay suffers(more than now if thats possible) and people start leaving. The "point of no return" is a proven valid concept and is literally just a matter of time. Have you tried playing on Sundays? It is literally unplayable for a huge chunk of the population. One of the corps im in has recently put a ban on Sunday PVP because with the cost of cap ships and the EVE lag monster it is to much a gamble.
Dont fool yourself, they have no intentions of "fixing" EVE. Maybe their next game, but certainly not EVE. Theyre to far gone to recover now and they already stated the cost asociated with the infiniband thing is simply out of the realm of possibility.
Syrup
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.05 17:55:00 -
[53]
Simple fixes:
-Wait for the pilot's client to be completely synched before being visible to the rest of the grid. People will wait ten minutes for a fight if the knew they had a chance once the grid loaded. Instead we get pilots jumping into a fight and finding themselves in their clone before the battlefield even loads, which IMHO is unacceptable.
-Enforce population-based Graphics Quality so that lower quality models and textures are used on ships in fleet engagements. Turret and weapon effects are automatically disabled when jumping into a new system, and are only enabled once the server determines the new location isn't overloaded. As a side effect, this might keep graphics *****s away from highly populated areas where sharp angles and blurry textures might offend them.
-Any ship that is not properly synched up should be emergency warped out to a different grid, even if their client is still active. They can still be probed out, however. Log these desynchs on the SERVER.
-Finally, stop rendering every drone, fighter, and missile in space. Most fleet engagements are fought in the overview anyway. Only report to the client the hits that the server determines had an affect, and drones or fighters that are in the client's immediate vicinity. Unless CCP is going to implement friendly fire, cover, and LoS accuracy, having exact coordinates for every object in space updated realtime is a huge waste.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:11:00 -
[54]
Quote:
How many people can they jam in, how much revenue can they generate before they reach the point of no return. The point where no combination of hardware/software can accomodate the userbase, gameplay suffers(more than now if thats possible) and people start leaving.
Well that seems nice for "the Momemt" but is not really a "long term" Story. They will end like Sony , when they change to that way.
So that would mean a "restart" in about 3 Years ;(
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:23:00 -
[55]
CCP have a good way of making people turn around and "think" this problem is being resolved.
Yet as others have stated in the past 3 years I have seen hardly ANY changes in lag in fleet fights.
This is why I hardly logon anymore and play, its just non playable in large fleet battles and although small gangs are fun I have had my fair share of small group fights.
I like the way CCP promote "need for speed" and other things yet I have yet to see ANY changes that make a decent differance to fleet battles.
Are you reading this CCP? Doubt it.
Here is the situation I am in if you give a rats ass, I pay my sub's each month HOPING you will fix your game, I hardly logon (personal stuff as well) - yet I would be dragged back to this game IF I saw an improvment, yet I have not.
Even with your new "client" and new "gfx" fleet fights are NON playable and unless you give me a stright answer as to WHY and WHAT you are doing then I have had it to be fair.
I will pay my subs to support your company for a few more months yet because I'm still hoping you will fix your game.
What also annoys me is the way they ignore a system that is at a stand still, you can sit in lag for over 3 hours and they do NOTHING.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:31:00 -
[56]
Seriously.. Turn based fleet combat...
Timed Turns, White wolf can help you with this,
When you jump into a system that bob is lag bombing with fighter swarms you join the turn based mode.
20 seconds(?) of watching followed by 20 seconds of clicking things and letting the server think about whats going to happen, followed by everyone watching what happens, followed by more input turns.
If you think that would be terrible then the current 5/10 minute turn times that we are experiencing arent any better.
What say you CCP? could this be possible? It isnt perfect but by god it would be better than what we have now.
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Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:25:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Pans Exual
The main lag cause is gang bonuses. Every time someone cloaks, decloaks, enters or leaves system, or gets blown up, that's another call the serve makes to recalculate gang skills. go in unganged for the win.
Incorrect
_________________________________________________________
My Second EvE Video
Club Seals Not Sandwichs
|
Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 14:14:00 -
[58]
As a high-sec war-deccing corp member, the lag is bareable, as long as you don't fight in, or around mission hubs, everything seems to run smoothly. Had a 19 man engagement in Palas about a week back and everything was functional.
I find that capital ships cause a lot more lag than otherships on the grid. Which is why I avoid them like the plague.
---
I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots... |
Jolliejoe
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 14:44:00 -
[59]
Look at the frontpage... CCP is so full of it... Record this, record that, blablabla... meanwhile even 10 vs 10 is unplayable..
What do they do? Nothing, stick some more **** on the frontpage.
Wasn't there something like the need for speed?? I'm not sure what they are smoking but they are not doing speed.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 15:20:00 -
[60]
CCP is losing the battle versus lag.
Volition Cult Recruitment Thread |
Tuberider
Caldari
Pothouse Cartel
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 16:11:00 -
[61]
Good start would be removing all those cans from belts.
After being in 0.0 for 3 years i recently returned to empire and was totally horrified by the gsc problem there 
it might remove some stress from the servers for starters
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:24:00 -
[62]
At least that would be a start , doing nothing helps none, and If we are serious that infi Think will not come soon , as they have to rip apart there code and that is really a dangerous Problem
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Red Desire
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 11:54:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:58
Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:15
Need for speed failed on all levels, comparing the performance of 2 years ago, I don't know where the new hardware, new code went .. it's sure didn't get us any speed.
And for all who don't get in large fleet battles, it's all based on luck.. some get small lag 10-30 seconds and other get 10-30 minutes delay and get killed by the ones without lag, also you can stay as much as 40-60 minutes to load the overview... etc
Need for speed was just a catchy name, the need increased but the performance never did.
Now to be fair, probably CCP tries to find a solution for lag but after 2 years, you can reach only 2 conclusions :
- they are not trying hard enough and resources are not allocated for this MAJOR issue
- they can't do nothing about it, so they lie us that they are adding hardware and fixes and what they "forget" to tell us is: that they are adding them only in their head(fantasy fixes&harware ftw)
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:55:00 -
[64]
i think making stacking item and repackaging remotely possible even in hostile station would help, (repackaging not damaged item) as me for example i have several stockpile of stuff in various station that go beyond the 1000 theorical limit , that would easily go under 700 if it was possible (as it was one year or so ago)
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:19:00 -
[65]
"300 People Fight , when will that be possible ?"
Never.
Next thread.
-
Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 12:27:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Red Desire
Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:58
Edited by: Red Desire on 07/02/2008 11:55:15
Need for speed failed on all levels, comparing the performance of 2 years ago, I don't know where the new hardware, new code went .. it's sure didn't get us any speed.
And for all who don't get in large fleet battles, it's all based on luck.. some get small lag 10-30 seconds and other get 10-30 minutes delay and get killed by the ones without lag, also you can stay as much as 40-60 minutes to load the overview... etc
Need for speed was just a catchy name, the need increased but the performance never did.
Now to be fair, probably CCP tries to find a solution for lag but after 2 years, you can reach only 2 conclusions :
- they are not trying hard enough and resources are not allocated for this MAJOR issue
- they can't do nothing about it, so they lie us that they are adding hardware and fixes and what they "forget" to tell us is: that they are adding them only in their head(fantasy fixes&harware ftw)
Part of the problem seems to be that whilst the code + hardware is improved, the number of players has risen lots. Hell i'm not than old and i can remember 20,000 players online an evening being a lot, now it averages more around 30,000 - 35,000.
Hopefully with the upcoming infiniband/server upgrade, a noticeable improvement will be seen.
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annoing
Amarr
MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:37:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vladt
Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 12:12:02
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ?
PS: they planing to put EVE on the Steam Plattform and are pushing the "marketing" in Germany too. So guess what they getting money BUT have no solution for the current LAG Problems ?! We are patiant BUT I want to know when to expect RESULTS no Marketing s!&%, IF YOU HAVE NO FOUNDARY THE SKYSCRAPER YOU ARE PLANING, WILL "KILL" YOU
I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! )
Regards
The amswer is NO. Will never happen.
Dwi Cymraig
According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians. Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation. |
Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 12:55:00 -
[68]
forget about it, 300? try problems with 65 in system and maybe 35 people fighting... tried to have a fight last night and the grid was so screwed up, i could see friendlies 600km away but not hostile targets 75km away right in front of the station. It was just unbelievable, this game is a pile of horse poo poo right now
|
Brother Welcome
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:06:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Vladt
Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 12:12:02
Dear CCP,
when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ?
Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ?
PS: they planing to put EVE on the Steam Plattform and are pushing the "marketing" in Germany too. So guess what they getting money BUT have no solution for the current LAG Problems ?! We are patiant BUT I want to know when to expect RESULTS no Marketing s!&%, IF YOU HAVE NO FOUNDARY THE SKYSCRAPER YOU ARE PLANING, WILL "KILL" YOU
I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! )
Regards
If there is a solution to lagfests, at present it lies in design not technology. Some kind of cap on ships in a battle.
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Gimpb
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:08:00 -
[70]
It doesn't seem like a real shocker that fights that large don't work well in eve, they don't work any better (or at all) in other MMOs.
So I guess you can talk crap about their coding, infrastructure, or whatever but at least it's a challenge they've chosen to take on where other MMOs shy away.
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LORD Gun
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:15:00 -
[71]
300??? how about when can 20 vs 20 fight without lag??? ccp has broken the game and is now just putting stuff in to get new subscribers. they stopped working on fixing the things to lets us play lag free years ago.
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Zero X942
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:17:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Zero X942 on 07/02/2008 13:25:08
CCP can't answer this. You have to ask your ISP, ATI, Intel, and any other hardware company. Lag can either come from the server not being able to stream data, or your computer being unable to handle all the data. Here's an experiment, go into EVE with a framerate counter and a bandwidth monitor. Get 300 people to gather together. Heck, go into any MMORPG and try it.
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duckmonster
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:24:00 -
[73]
Theres a mathematical equasion that basically goes for every new thing on the grid, its a new thing each item must tell each other item about its interactions with. Its infernal and it can't be defeated.
Rather than trying to "beat" the lag beast, CCP needs to learn how to make peace and tame it.
Part of the problem is the real-timey ness of it all. When you get lag, you start button mashing. When you start button mashing, things get even laggier. On it goes.
In my view CCP needs to establish a minimum "acceptable" lag for varying size battles and stick with it. For a 20 vs 20 man lag, a couple seconds lag is probably entirely acceptable. For a 200man vs 200man lag, ten seconds lag, whilst still deeply annoying, is a damn sight better than the "5 minute module activation" crap we get.
How to achieve this? Do it at "macho-net" before it even hits the node. For things like module activation, bundle it up in a single request that gets processed every 10 seconds only (for a 200vs200). Same for targetting, and so on. Create a queue for each ship, on a separate "proxy" process, that filters out all the mashing and contradiction, and every ten seconds dump it into the node, then return the results. Use dead-reckoning processing at the client to smooth it out.
Ten seconds is still a *****, but for a big fleet fight, one can live with it. Having the whole thing freeze up to all hell is not. The neat thing is, you could in theory then scale up to 1000vs1000 man fights, at , say, one minute lag, and whilst it'd be painful I'd still attend because it'd be epic.
But I'm convinced the trick is to just break up the lag into slices with a predictable "quantum" of time.
Lag can never be beaten, but it can be tamed and made predictable.
-----------
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whoyoulookingat
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:38:00 -
[74]
Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 07/02/2008 13:39:14
Imagine if you will, 300 pilots all ready to slog it out on a gate.. and they start..
mr US pilot locks a target
mr Austrian Locks
mr Russian Locks
mr French Locks
that's only 4 locks from 4 different points on Earth, travelling all the way back to the Eve servers then all the way back to their pc's to say "yep, Eve has recognised your command and you have now locked someone".
Now add 300 people all doing the same and what do you think happens? Add network traffic to this flowing data and *BAM* we have lag. Then you have those 300 little paws all clicking and pushing buttons to shoot/web/MWD/GTFO and latency then rears its ugly head.. you pressed F1 but due to god knows how many other commands it's now in line waiting to be read from the Eve Server.. In panic, you hit it again & again & then others get the same and they all start smashing their keys..
Get the picture??
Not until we all have 0ms ping times and quantum cpu's will the main bulk of lag vanish, but add in you own pc, connection type, ISP, Eve Servers and you'll see that lag will always be there in some form.
_____________________________________
Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
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Red Desire
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 14:50:00 -
[75]
Originally by: whoyoulookingat
Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 07/02/2008 13:39:14
Imagine if you will, 300 pilots all ready to slog it out on a gate.. and they start..
mr US pilot locks a target
mr Austrian Locks
mr Russian Locks
mr French Locks
******************
Get the picture??
Not until we all have 0ms ping times and quantum cpu's will the main bulk of lag vanish, but add in you own pc, connection type, ISP, Eve Servers and you'll see that lag will always be there in some form.
I'am no expert, but networking is not the problem.
There are sites that have 100 of thousands of simultan connections.
The problem is not on the "talking" part, it's on the thinking part.
All that battle information needs to be proccessed, you know.. ships in space firing,moving,exploding etc...
It doesn't matter if we all have been in the same room. The problem comes from the server not beeing able to proccess information fast enough and to some it doesn't send any information.
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Jolliejoe
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 15:33:00 -
[76]
It is quiet obvious that CCP is not worried about anything posted in these forums as they probably say it is only a small percentage of people complaining... In this their logic is so flawed because most people who don't even respond anymore have long given up. CCP feels they can get away with ****ty customer support because some other MMO's have worse customer support (so I've been told although I find that hard to believe).
I've felt for a long time that nothing that is being said here by anyone in the forums is going to make jack **** difference. They will simply ignore it.
Or is it just a cultural difference between Iceland and the rest of the world that they have different standards on how to interact with people, react to people's valid complaints?
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 17:14:00 -
[77]
there have been hundreds of threads, probably thousands. It is not client side, its not world wide, its the data crunching, and this has been documented and well commented on. if you want to argue that fact go somewhere else. As in any technology there are limitations.
My disgust with it all is that i was sold a mighty internet spaceships game chock full of battles and vids of fights and just uber amazingness on a scale you couldnt imagine. Well, we got that in principle but it falls far short. At this point, i would rather go back and fire up Wing Commander 3 just cause that internet spaceship game is more reliable. I guess i am more angry with myself for getting hooked on a developers dream and a marketing pitch instead of enjoying a reliable and fun product. And at this point i dont think its my fault for falling sucker, since to really enjoy the game you have to learn and play so much just to ***** the surface.
Imagine as a kid you watch your father drive around a ferrari, and for like 3 years you watch and can't wait to get behind the wheel. Finally after such a long wait, he tosses you the keys. You get into the car and get to the first light and slam on the gas, but it can't beat a civic. You realize that its a kit car with a inline 4 in it instead of the work of art you had been wishing for and dreaming of.
2 centos
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Aypse
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 18:50:00 -
[78]
I wish that CCP would speak out on this subject. Not a little witty dev comment in some obscure thread (like this one). A real, extensive report.
What are their attainable expectations for Eve in reagrds to lag in 6 months, 1 year, and 2 years down the road?
What are they currently working on with the software?
What hardware options are they looking at?
What game design changes are they considering to reduce the necessity of the blob?
A comprehensive report on what the hell is going on in regards to this problem that impacts so many of their customers and so much of the high-end content.
Originally by: Oveur
Eve is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced.
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Agif
Templar Republic
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:01:00 -
[79]
For the CCP bashers in here just ask your self have you ever played a game when more than 100 ppl in the same "Grid" are fighting and you have experienced no lagg ?
For those who say they were on WOW and have had this with no lagg, you are probably right but does each server for WOW have 35,000 ppl online running on a singular server ?
NO
Thus CCP is not losing the fight with lagg if anything they have achieved what everyone else wants so give them credit where its due.
PS. Sort the fking lagg already
---------------
EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08 |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:19:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Aypse
I wish that CCP would speak out on this subject. Not a little witty dev comment in some obscure thread (like this one). A real, extensive report.
What are their attainable expectations for Eve in reagrds to lag in 6 months, 1 year, and 2 years down the road?
What are they currently working on with the software?
What hardware options are they looking at?
What game design changes are they considering to reduce the necessity of the blob?
A comprehensive report on what the hell is going on in regards to this problem that impacts so many of their customers and so much of the high-end content.
what CCP have already said:
Quote:
This is a really good discussion and I am enjoying it, I hope everyone else is getting something out of it too.
While initially it may not appear that we are doing anything for large fleet combat with this kind of upgrade that is not true. By splitting the Solar system services apart to allow them to run separate from each other means that a node that is handling a grid on which combat is happen is doing nothing but the combat. This means that it will not have cycles running other processes.
Theoretically we could also split out the 'reporting' of results so that one cpu is processing all the combat actions, it them pushes these results to another node that actually handles publishing all the results to the pilots. Thus meaning that we can further split the load handled by each cpu.
Once we get the initial framework and structure into place then we can do some amazing things with this technology. It will not all happen at once as we have a lot of work that needs to be done and study into how the different subsystems talk and react to each other. The end goal would be to have certain 'processes/services' spun up dynamically to off load work to. But as said earlier this is not an over night fix, it will be an ongoing process. When we have more solid time lines and roadmap you will get more dev blog's on this topic with more details than my little contributions.
Please remember I am not active on this project so can only give you what I have heard and learned, it may not always be 100% accurate but I try.
Cheers.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
Quote:
I think you are starting to see the scale of some of the issues involved in those.
They are not impossible, but they certainly involve some pretty serious design and testing.
So we are approaching it in a iterative processes.
(Below is an example not a real project plan, it is there to give you an idea)
Getting the current code base running in an HPC environment.
Recode parts of our code base to use HPC functionality rather than our own code.
Enable RDMA and start breaking up the current 'Sol' code to work across 'nodes'
Enable dynamic moving of nodes.
etc etc
Keep the ideas running ... you might come up with a new twist that we haven't thought of ...
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=689063
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Vladt
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:22:00 -
[81]
Are you telling us, that Fight 50v50 are Lagfree.. is that the seize we can count on ?
Sorry I remeber a fight 2 years ago , in ec-p8r, there where rumors that CCP did a "test" and put the system on one node , well let me tell you we had almost lagfree fight and gues what there where sometime more then 600 People in the system. So what is differnt now that its not working.
They advertise "large Scale Battle" in the marketing News all over the world and try to "confince" more players to come to EVE. if the Cluster doest scale then find a solution Please !
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:23:00 -
[82]
Quote:
Actually it's a little more than that.
Infiniband is more like liking your computers together is the 'PCI' bus rather than via a network connection.
You could plug them in and then point all your network coms at the new cards, but it would not do much. The advantage to be gained from Infinband is that it will allow computers to read from other computers, to push work (threads) out to other machines and get the responses back very very quickly. The structure of a Network card is very different in that using it via TCP mean you need to use the TCP stack architecture and this means dealing with the inherent delays with the processing.
The project team doing the infniband implementation as part of the HPC implementation are working very hard to get this out to you as soon as Practicable. But this is a Major recode of large parts of our low level code. We are basically ripping apart our own custom built Cluster management software and replacing it with calls to the HPC system. We are then recoding the software services to make use of the new communications framework allowing rapid transfer of data between Sol nodes and the splitting off of any part of the code that can be threaded.
This is not something we can "Just do it" too. We are working hard on this and will get it out when it is ready.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=682229&page=1#16
Quote:
Actually smaller grids would not work as with the range of weapons (up to 250km) means that if a grid was 25km then it would have to be able to dynamically talk to all other grids with 10 grids of it ... not a nice network communication layer there. It would add far too much overhead to the code.
As for the Code base we regularly refactor our code (for optimization and for code clarity) but it is a rather large code base, in excess of 1 million lines of code (I think we have actually broken 1.2 million lines but not sure). So not all code gets looked at as regularly as other code. But it happens.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=682229&page=6#159
Quote:
Couple of thing.
We have 3 parts to the cluster - proxies, Sol's and the DB.
You are assigned to a single proxy when you connect. It does not change. It is a broker between your client and the Sol nodes you talk to.
Sol's handle the game logic, a Sol can handle 1 (or many) solar systems, regional markets, chat channels etc etc. They can by mixed round to handle a mixture of these. Some handle just 1 thing (f.ex Jita).
The DB is the DB and is not the 'Limiting' factor for performance at the moment.
The limit is that a Sol process is limited to 1 CPU, and this is in our software, not an OS limitation so this would not change if we switched OS's.
Part of the complexity is that we basically wrote our own Cluster management software to run EVE. What HPC and OS Clustering would do for us is allow us to use industry standard clustering techniques and software and allow us to focus more of our efforts on other parts of the code base. We would then not have to write our own versions of any new technology that we wanted to use (f.ex infinband interfaces) but could rely on the OS HPC implementation.
I have no details on the time frames involved here so can not comment on that.
He have a team of people that are really working hard to implement the HPC technology and make all the changes to our code, but it is a Major major job, we basically have to rewrite ALL the in house cluster interface layer to work on HPC style ... not a small task but well worth it in our opinion and already underway.
Can't give you any more details as I am not involved in this project at this time but have kept and eye on it. When it is closer to stable design then expect a Large Dev blog with more details.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leade
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:23:00 -
[83]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=676348&page=1#8
Quote:
Not written in C++. It's in Python like most of EVE and it is very hard to Thread. Do you want a threaded combat engine ... I don't. It has to be handled sequentially or it will cause to many errors.
If one thread completed processing before another thread that started sooner and this was then applied (say damage from my guns) but then the thread from you damage came back and said ... my ship was destroyed we have a problem.
But moving other parts of the 'solar system' to their own cpu (like station services, etc) and then grouping those services will make a vast improvement.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
Quote:
I don't know how/why/when the Infini band will be used in the cluster.
I do know that there are some very smart people looking at how it will be implemented and that they will do some very good work with it.
CCP Lingorm
CCP Quality Assurance
QA Engineering Team Leader
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=676348
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.09 14:57:00 -
[84]
So now we now what isnt working.
The baseline to the Stary is that I have seen 600 ! Members fight two years agon in a System called ec-8pr and now after ALL those "optimizations" I can hardly have a fight with 50 to 50.
So "need for speed" was a nice marketing Trick , POS Warfare is stronger then ever :(
I know that they are "working on it", BUT the point ist what do we get TODAY
fight 5v5
fight 10v10
fight 50v50
fight 100v100 ( forget it i know that for sure ;(
SO WHERE IS THE BEEF ?!
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.12 19:35:00 -
[85]
Seems that ALOT of people are writing something about the "LAG" Problem.
Seems like People are sick and tired in hearing the Mantra " CCP is working on it please wait and be patient"
.... we want answers and that we want now ;) thanks
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MenanceWhite
Amarr
Fruit Fellatio
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Posted - 2008.02.12 19:45:00 -
[86]
Already possible. Just set it no carriers no drones.
---
Originally by: Torfi
There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.02.12 20:35:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vladt
Seems that ALOT of people are writing something about the "LAG" Problem.
Seems like People are sick and tired in hearing the Mantra " CCP is working on it please wait and be patient"
.... we want answers and that we want now ;) thanks
What is this ? Another "too much lag" thread ? You didn't bring any new questions, all these have been answered. Lag will be reduced once they change the server to infiniband hardware and rewrite the code. When ? As soon as possible.
Not satisfied with that answer ? Tough luck. Don't pay for eve don't play it anymore until they change to the super computing solution. You are not entitled to anything or in any position to make demands for 'answers', they were already provided earlier anyway.
This is a service. Like it ? Pay for it. Don't like it ? Go out, there's a world outside your computer that doesn't involve laggy ships fleet battles.
This is also a great game, the most advanced MMO in existence, and being so large/single sharded, the lag problem was bound to happen. You think the devs are just sitting on their asses just raking in the money and lying to us meanwhile? I don't think so! They also can't just clap their hands and magically make lag go away. Be patient, or take a break until they switch to infiniband.
B|tching on the forum ? Yes i'm sure that will help... 
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.02.29 00:29:00 -
[88]
Quote:
What is this ? Another "too much lag" thread ? You didn't bring any new questions, all these have been answered. Lag will be reduced once they change the server to infiniband hardware and rewrite the code. When ? As soon as possible.
Maybe , Guilty in the way that I want to have answers NOW and not only "wait we are working on it" that is not fair.
The question I was asking is
1. when will we be able to fly Fleetops in the scalle of 300 ! ?
2. what fleet will have an "accetable" lag so what is the recommended Fleetops Operation ? 50 ? 20 ? 100 ?
After all that "need for Speed" , "Drone Nerf " and so one, what battle may we fly with the "current" Server ?
That is the question my dear friend , as I also stated above in EC-p8r there were Fleetops with 600 !! Pilots in on System, with almost NO Lag. And that was "prior" to that "new " hardware ;(
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Chelone
Stone Shadow Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.29 00:36:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vladt
Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight in a system like everyone would expect ?
Never. This should be obvious to everyone by now.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2008.03.07 06:48:00 -
[90]
then we should start to make it clear to CCP that we want that to be changed !?
The "OLD" Devs seams to be in that "VampireDevelopment" but the problems will not vanishe, just because CCP denies us any Information on the Topic.
Look to the EVE General there are "TONS" of Posts asking for the same , but there is "never" a official Statement , sounds like a politician they just wait and hope that the Problem goes away on it own.
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Zerena Draco
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Posted - 2008.03.07 09:12:00 -
[91]
It should be possible with 250 vs 250 sometime in near future
since Lineage 2 has managed that.
sure you need a damn good computer and set details to a minimum but it is playable without serious lags.
EVE is so much bigger than Lineage 2 in possibilities but
wish I will eventually get the same massive feeling in EVE as the first siege in Lineage 2 gave, but think it will have to wait until the lags got fixed.
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Cyxopyc
Wolfram Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:59:00 -
[92]
I've been told in the forums that clients lagging for whatever reason does not affect the server. That EVE's client is just a terminal screen to display what the server tells it, nothing more.
Why would this happen then? I'm in fleet with a friend in a mission moving to a room with a large number of NPCs. My friend is in another country (on Earth). I use the acceleration gate noticing longer than normal load time as I arrive in the room with 30 or so NPCs. A group of 6 near me attack. I tell my friend to come on in. After he uses the acceleration gate and is in the warp tunnel my client apparently freezes... until he arrives in the room.
It looks to me like lag on someone else's client = lag on my client if we are both in the same location or will be soon.
I think coming up with a simple graphics setting would help with fleet battles, some...
==
Support fixing the EVE UI |
Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.07 12:58:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Vladt
Normally I would think that CCP as a company checks there produkt first and fixes those "big bugs" , then and only THEN the can add content on TOP of it.
Afterwise the foundation will break !
You may get IT but you surely don't get business.
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:08:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Zero X942
CCP can't answer this. You have to ask your ISP, ATI, Intel, and any other hardware company. Lag can either come from the server not being able to stream data, or your computer being unable to handle all the data. Here's an experiment, go into
I assure you I'm not bandwidth starved and my latency is always under control.
Drawing 1000 red and blue squares should not bring your computer to your knees. Don't you find kind of amusing that, if people are complaining about lag, you'd make sure your game client was flexible enough to degrade visual quality, and that instead of that we got Oh Shiny! graphics?
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:35:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Nasta443 on 07/03/2008 13:38:37
Originally by: Vladt
They advertise "large Scale Battle" in the marketing News all over the world and try to "confince" more players to come to EVE. if the Cluster doest scale then find a solution Please !
The inmense majority of the new players will stay in empire. And I bet a bunch of those are posers who like to tell their buddies they are hardcore because they play in a game with "large scale battles" and the like, but never go past 0.5, and that there's another sizeable group that likes to have the chance of said battles but waits for "just 1 more million skillpoints" to go.
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