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300 People Fight , when will that be possible ?

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Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:05:00 - [1] Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ? Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ? I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! ) Regards
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:06:00 - [2] Soon?
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Vladt Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ? Are you ever doing tests in that Matter ? Can we maybe have "someday" a statemant from a "trusted" source ( Developer ?! ) , when that will be possible OR at least tell us with how many Pilots can be in on Grid to fight and dont lag it out and let the Drones/Fighter fight ? I find it very anoying that after all that "need for speed" we still dont have a chance to fight large battle without lag :(( ( Maybe it is time to look into the hourglass and go for BIG changes !!!!!!!! ) Regards CCP have allready answered this question. Many times. And they are doing the best they can. Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do.. When it comes to lag, people must start acting more intelligent. CCP do what they can, but when the players dont, this situation is what we are ending up with, I am very much afraid. Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
Cotton Tail Perkone	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 - [4] Edited by: Cotton Tail on 30/01/2008 09:11:38 When they realise the magic switch which makes all lag disappear everywhere has been turned off for the last few years... oh how red their faces will be when they released there was a simple solution to the lag.
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:11:00 - [5] lol ... seems to be like that statement that "duke nukem forever" will be ready SOON, that soon you meant or do you have a much narrowed timeframe - so many thing where done against "LAG" BUT "WHERE IS THE BEEF" when I cant fight those "BIG FIGHTS" EVE was build to be ?
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:14:00 - [6] We've had battles involving 300 people with not too much lag in the past. Say two years ago. These days, 300 people in a grid means server standstill. CCP have answered this question many times indeed. THey point out their need for speed intitiative that should battle gameplay lag. They fail at providing results in any way shape or form with regard to this issue however. Every step they make only covers half the ground they lost while making it. I don't expect that to change in future either. [center] Old blog
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Vladt on 30/01/2008 09:18:24 CP have allready answered this question. Many times. And they are doing the best they can. Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do.. When it comes to lag, people must start acting more intelligent. CCP do what they can, but when the players dont, this situation is what we are ending up with, I am very much afraid. that is purely politician/marketing talk, if you tell me gang up to X are ok that I can accept , but not " we having answerd that question many times" , " CCP do what they can" So If I know the underlying Logic of the grid( System Database) and know how to feed the lagmonster I act "inelligent" and can win with fighters/drones ? Is that the way the Game is meant to be played ? If you know how to exploit a system crash is that then "intelligent" ? Please give me than the skill "System LAG" ... CCP WHERE IS THE BEEF IN LARGE FLEET BATTLE !!
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:24:00 - [8] At least BOB knows how to play "intelligent" and feed the LAGMONSTER in there Favorite. Seems the have more insight in that underlying Database structur through Tests, Expirence or what soever. Gratz , Job well done ( well that is not the game I thought playing , but on that large skale , LAG in combination with Drones/Fighter is the Iwin Button, and whatever CCP tells us that is not "need for speed" )
R0ze Setenta Corp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:26:00 - [9] Vladt if you know so many technical terms like 'grid', 'sql' etc why the heck do you ask such questions? Some basic IT knowledge should be enough to understand what's a 'LAG' and why does it exist. That same basic knowledge should give you an idea that the developers aren't really happy as it is now and are very well informed about the situation and probably doing their best to work around it. And you should get a picture that a live production system is pretty hard to change.. And NO generic/syntetic tests provide enough to fix everything on some test-system (which is Singularity). So please stop such threads..
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Vladt At least BOB knows how to play "intelligent" and feed the LAGMONSTER in there Favorite. Seems the have more insight in that underlying Database structur through Tests, Expirence or what soever. Gratz , Job well done ( well that is not the game I thought playing , but on that large skale , LAG in combination with Drones/Fighter is the Iwin Button, and whatever CCP tells us that is not "need for speed" ) Please keep the BoB whines in coad, thank you. We aren't happy about lag either. But we've been around long enough to kow it won't ever go away, and that you either adapt or forego fleetfights in total. [center] Old blog
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:35:00 - [11] Just because I know those words doesnt mean I know how CCP has constructed EVE. they have contructed that software around a SQL enviroment, they promise us large scale Battle with less lag and do some changes ! but we are still at the same point as we where 2 Years ago, I see no improvements . It is nice that they are aware and that they test on the Testserver "Stresstest" but I can never read the resulst , they have "numbers" and "test" ( at least the write from time to time something about that in the dev blog) that you can bet your money on !! Well , at the end of the day , we still have those "needed" large POS-SHOOT-DOWN-TO-GET-SYSTEM Events and I dont see it that it changed anything ( And I dont want to wait , waited now for 2 Years, with all those saying , "wait they are on it" ... "lag is common, everyone has it" ..."be cool" )
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:41:00 - [12] Quote: Please keep the BoB whines in coad, thank you. We aren't happy about lag either. But we've been around long enough to kow it won't ever go away, and that you either adapt or forego fleetfights in total. I meant it in respect , as there has to be a lot of know how involved. And for my point , LAG seems now a days the primary target not a hassle someone can get along :( [b]Seems like the E-Mail Traffic, 2 Years ago there where 10% Spam now aday we are talking more like 98% Spam THAT kind of Problem is LAG in Large Fleet Operations[/b
R0ze Setenta Corp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2008.01.30 09:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Vladt And I dont want to wait , waited now for 2 Years, with all those saying , "wait they are on it" ... "lag is common, everyone has it" ..."be cool" ) Well didnt you just answer all your questions? If you dont like the game why are you still here (no offence)? There are lot of MMORPGS out maybe one of them will satisfy all your quality requirments..
gaaksel Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:07:00 - [14] Just because something has been said many times in the past does not mean it qualifies as an explanation, let alone a sufficient answer. People usually blame(ed) us for blobbing and using the lag to our advantadge, i think i can testify for all pilots within my alliance that we would love to see nothing more than fluent fleetbattles happening in this game. I know a good few occasions where we could not perform the things we had in mind because the lag prevented us from doing it, i think this also holds true for all "large scale" pvpers. This game is built around pvp , be it on the battlefield or the market, everything you do in this game contributes one way or the other towards pvp. It is totally unacceptable that the core feature of this game is not working as it should. I think we can also all agree that CCP is aware of this, however i personally think that they do not have a solution. The way the game changed over the past 2+ years made huge fleets a must have, it made cap ships and super cap ships and absolute requirement for any alliance and subsequently it made it necessary to support these investments with huge conventional fleets. Add this to the constant addition of new , often bugged , content that also puts strains on the database and the ongoing growth in subscription numbers and you get to understand why the lag will not go away. Not with new hardware, not with infiniband, not with recoding the netcode or the ever famous database optimizations called "need for speed initiative". EvE started as a niche game in a niche market, it has since then become a regular player in a mass market and this is where to concept eve was designed on starts to hit its limits. There is a reason why all current and future mass market mmos use sharded designs, the buissness model demands high user numbers to justify the immense development costs and the ongoing maintainence costs, these kind of subscription numbers cannot be maintained on single sharded worlds for design reasons as much as for server side hardware reasons. EvE always was the exception and that is why we love(ed) it, however in its current state it clearly shows where the limits of this approach are to be found. Now all this said , should we stop complaining ? No not at all , the opposite is true , we should be more vocal about it , after all it is our time and our money we put into this hobby of ours, if the service we require is not delivered we have all rights to complain. Just we should do it with a bit of distance and be polite while doing it, after all we always have the ultimate opt out strategy only a mouseclick away. Being vocal however is the only way a customner can show his dissatisfaction with a given product and the more of these complaints show up, the higher gets the pressure on the content provider (CCP) to rethink their design decissions (in game i do not want a sharded EvE just to make this clear) and come up with innovative solutions. This is what i personally would like to see in the future of eve, less marketing phrases about how the new supercomputer will fix all problems and more changes in the game design itself that allows for said supercomputer to actually improve the game experience significantly.
Miss Anthropy The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Vladt Dear CCP, when will it be possible to fight ( not stand !! Lagmonster on !! ) in a system like everyone would expect ? Tomorrow at 07:04 EVE time. The voices told me. They mentioned Jita too, but I'm not sure what that means.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Drasked Soon? doubtfull I declare war on stupidity
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do.. Guess why other games don't allow it, one guess, three letters, stars with L, ends with G ... No instanced battles is a good thing, but mechanics and combat elements that encourage blobs is bad. One of them has to go. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Honestly, I have personally yet to see a game that have up to 500-600 people involved in the same fight in other online games. EVE allows this. I am unsure if other games do.. Guess why other games don't allow it, one guess, three letters, stars with L, ends with G ... No instanced battles is a good thing, but mechanics and combat elements that encourage blobs is bad. One of them has to go. The speed nerf will not help the situation... at least with fast ships, the fight is about catching and chasing, not about sniping and sitting with drones out!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Jallem Sims The speed nerf will not help the situation... at least with fast ships, the fight is about catching and chasing, not about sniping and sitting with drones out! I have no idea where you got that, good luck with it. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:20:00 - [20] There is a very simple answer to this one: 300 person battles will be possible when the subscriber base reached a number where a typical battle consists of 600 people.
Dian Caro	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:44:00 - [21] there was a good thread discussing lag here a few months ago it boiled down to "their coding sucks" - i mean imagine who would work in an mmorpg startup and what kind of code they could write up for the game and then add a few years, over 30,000 people, and all the new features introduced to EVE and there you're gonna have your lag
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:51:00 - [22] I don't really know what they're supposed to say past what they already have. The server is in a sorry state and they're doing their best to get huge hardware upgrades as soon as possible. _
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:56:00 - [23] Quote: there was a good thread discussing lag here a few months ago it boiled down to "their coding sucks" - i mean imagine who would work in an mmorpg startup and what kind of code they could write up for the game and then add a few years, over 30,000 people, and all the new features introduced to EVE and there you're gonna have your lag So they know it is broken but then dont fix it, as they dont know what will happen wenn they change the Code ? So the whole "need-for-speed" is just a Marketing Gag. Gratz !! So PVP is only fun at ccp if you Gatecamp, have a small Gank Troop ? Large Scale has always be the problem, but when they introduced "titans" and Capitals, they didnt do there Homework ! As you can see the effekt quite clear if you ever had the please to wittness such battles. I cant stress it enough , I want a Quideline how many people can be on one node ?! CCP has the answers how many Players can be in one grid OR one node befor the "LAG" gets to lets say 5 Minutes It is a big Problem and every Alliance faces it , but in the light of the recent "Marketing Action" of CCP to generate more Members it will get even bigger, SO PLEASE PLEASE find a solution to those Problems and us a Timeline to solve them
baltec1	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:59:00 - [24] CCP to me is doing a very good job of running large battles, back on galaxies we would lag out with just 40 people. Here I can take part in 400 man battles and its still playable.
F90OEX	Posted - 2008.01.30 12:11:00 - [25] If you have ever joined in on the test fleet battles on SISI, the answer would be clearly looking you right in the face. As stated all above ( which I believe) CCP are probably doing all they can to allow such battles to happen. The problem is with the rate of people joining eve and more people joining 0.0 corps by the time you can actually have 300 man battles, there will be 600 in the system. Its like the old saying build it and they will come, just like Jita, they add more servers, local just keeps on getting bigger. So its a cat and mouse game where as If you look at history of this game and talk to the older players, they really have never caught up, unless there is some technology breakthrough I think its safe to say, this game will always be the way it is, IE .. Laggy in Jita, impossible to have a large fleet battle they way the OP would like to see it happen. The only problem I have with CCP is that they advertise fleet battles in a way, that one would think its actually possible to have them, when if fact its not. Never has and with the way things are looking based upon EVE history and they will never be. You think for one min that these big 0.0 alliances are going to being less people to a fight to avoid lag... lol Never :) So ppl like the OP are going to have the decide if its actually worth it to join in large battles or not. Come on ask yourself how many people you know who had one time done the whole fleet battle thing, but b/c of lag/desync got tired of losing ships the min you jump in to a system , they got tired of it and left 0.0 battles, b/c it just to the point where it made no sense, to either can't log in, you jump into the system where the battle is taking place and all u see for 2hrs is nothing, blk screen of death , or you looking at the battle but your ship went pop 15mins ago even though your still in your ship. Remember the choice is yours with 0.0 fleet battles, I made mine 8months ago and never looked back.
Vladt	Posted - 2008.01.30 12:24:00 - [26] CCP Atropos Quote: Pure hell for EVE? I don't find that many issues with server performance when I play. Additionally, the press release states that EVE is going to be available to download through Steam. This doesn't mean that the server is going to explode with new users overnight, so you don't have much to worry about in terms of a sudden drop in performance. We're constantly aiming to improve the server performance and we are working on doing just that. We can't trickle improvements in, one piece at a time, since this results in a continuous maintenance period for TQ, denying people the ability to play. As such, the performance of the server will stay as it is until such a time as we do roll out an update. It will happen, that I can guarantee you, and as a gesture of good faith, I give you the projected time of arrival as SoonÖ. See what I mean, they dont "know the Problem" ... seems that not to much CCP Dev participate now a days in LARGE FLEET Battles, because it is one fleet warps to another and they everthing "freezes" and you teammaid tells you if you are down or not ;( " From a TS : Hey Dud you are in my station .. Answer : no Im fighting agains that big Something Answer : no you are here in the station, just reboot and you will see ;( it the LAGMONSTER ) Quote:* CCP Atropos : It will happen, that I can guarantee you, and as a gesture of good faith, I give you the projected time of arrival as SoonÖ. We will remeber that Buddy !! Now we have 2008 January !!
Gigi Barbagrigia Latent Appliance Fetishists	Posted - 2008.01.30 12:36:00 - [27] Single shard design has nothing to do with how many people can duck it out in one zone.
Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.30 12:48:00 - [28] Stain Vs Curse 3 + years ago _________________________________________________________ My Second EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Serge Tahlon Gallente Templars of Space Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.30 13:30:00 - [29] if the current situation does not allow for large gangs clashing what needs to happen is a redesign as to how soverinty works. the current mechanics require you bring the biggest blob to the party in order to fight over territory.
Jodi Xios Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:56:00 - [30] The game at present is not playable/enjoyable. Lag and de-sync is now happening in small pvp engagements, in a small 10 v 10 figth the other day half our gang de-synced during pvp with only 20 ppl in local.... The most anoying part is that CCP advertise fleet battles and show spectacular fights that simply doesnt happen, all they seem to do now is add more useless content and get as many people to sign up as they can instead of coming up with a solution and putting all ideas into anti lag. Maybe having severl servers is not such a bad idea after all, at least you get to have decent fights. Imo the server is over crowded now and with recent events its only going to get worse... Fingures crossed for the super comp but until then my a/c's are going inactive.

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