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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Yee Do
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:03:00 -
[61]
Wouldn't it be easier if my standing with the corporation was what determined payout rather than agent quality? That way my mission payout would be the same whether I was in Motsu, Irjunen, Dodixie or wherever. I could go to that quiet system nobody bothers with and get the same missions as I do now in lag central.
To address the issue with payouts and sec status, make .5 and above have a modifier of 1 as the danger doing missions in .5 vs .8 systems is the same for all intents and purposes, give .4 and below a better modifier to cover the additional danger of doing missions there.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:05:00 -
[62]
If an agent chooses a system to send a mission runner to carry out some mission by using a set of criteria, why can't those criteria be changed to disallow Jita (and/or other hubs)...
I also like the idea that the quality of an agent should be more a function of the number of mission runners they have, more runners, lower quality... or even like the prices of items sold by NPC's in stations, all agents start out at Quality level 20, as people accept missions (in a day) the quality drops... as fewer missions are accepted, the quality regenerates back closer to 20...
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:08:00 -
[63]
 Quote:
The solution to the problem would be to move all ores except for Veldspar to lowsec or lower, and only allow lvl 2 max agents in highsec. That way everybody would be forced into lowsec to get anything other than trit or a mission worth doing. This would in turn keep the populations, and thus lag, down to manageable levels as the lowsec pirates keep the miner/missioner populations in check.
Actually, don't you think it would be a better idea to remove high sec entirely? Then you'd never ever have to worry about any system being overpopulated again.
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Lysander Memnos
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.01 20:20:00 -
[64]
What exactly causes the lag in Jita? Hundreds of pilots aren't all in one location (e.g. stargate to X) so it probably isn't lag from waiting for positional updates. Market activites are instantaneous and there's quite a bit of that in Jita, so maybe this is a culprit suitable for modification. Maybe the stations/markets should be offloaded to their own node (if that's even possible) rather than the Jita system itself. Also, changing how market queries are done from outside of Jita (price checks, etc...) should be on a further delayed basis to keep the DB thrashing down?
Glad to see some Dev involvement and useful information, though.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 22:08:00 -
[65]
As long as the beer doesn't wash away all memories of this thread, we're good 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:39:00 -
[66]
Hey, look, what do you know, it's Monday already.
WAKE UP, CCP Prism X !
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:43:00 -
[67]
And since Akita's already summoned you, Prism X:
What about the Triangle of Death? Surely that's an obvious example of too many agents = system lag. Wouldn't dispersal with some forethought alleviate that problem?
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:45:00 -
[68]
It's the Quadrilater of Death nowadays 
Aramachi<->Laah<->Motsu<->Saila<->Aramachi
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akita T
It's the Quadrilater of Death nowadays
Aramachi<->Laah<->Motsu<->Saila<->Aramachi
Or the Mega-Dodecahedralateralon of Death. (Whee!)
Regardless, clusterf***. Bad design. Fix.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
How expensive can it possibly be? From the last dev posts about hardware we gather that CCP uses PC-based servers with rather mundane specs. You can buy high-end boxes with 4-8 cores and 32GB+ RAM for just a few $1000 these days (well maybe not from IBM, but try appro.com etc.).
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:03:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it 
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
Our single sub doesn't cover it no, but the thousands of players involved in this content that they have made them selfs subs should cover it, I'm sure they cover your wage packet also as well as most other employees...
First rule of business, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:11:00 -
[72]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 04/02/2008 12:16:04
I'm not trying to insult you, bite the hand that feeds me (*removed me being touchy*) or deny you fair service. If you think we can function once we start using all our subscription money to buy a dedicated server for every system that someone requests, you're mistaken. I'm not explaining this further because I don't think you'll agree whatever I say. Essentially it's the whole "You did this for them, why not us?!" and suddenly we've spent all CCP Employers salary on new hardware and EVE goes under.
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
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Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:15:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
I'm not trying to insult you, bite the hand that feeds me (and you don't feed me, I feed myself through the efforts I put into getting to where I am in life OR, alternatively if you want to do this through transitive relationships, whoever pays your salaries does) or deny you fair service. If you think we can function once we start using all our subscription money to buy a dedicated server for every system that someone requests, you're mistaken. I'm not explaining this further because I don't think you'll agree whatever I say. Essentially it's the whole "You did this for them, why not us?!" and suddenly we've spent all CCP Employers salary on new hardware and EVE goes under.
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
My post was not meant to get your back-up. I'm just saying as a CCP rep you need to have slightly more tact than "well my superiors don't care so i don't".
Anyway, a way to fix lag, don't advertise through steam until infiniband comes to fruition - otherwise we return to RMR days, and i'm sure you remember those.
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Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:19:00 -
[74]
Im not saying my superior doesn't care. I'm saying you don't realize what road your suggestion would take us down, financially, and voicing my opinion that I don't think it could work in any way to dedicate one server to every system. I understand you asked for only one system but if we do it for you we have to do it for everyone.
Anywhos, I was being touchy. I apologize.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
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Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:22:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 04/02/2008 12:19:54
Im not saying my superior doesn't care. I'm saying you don't realize what road your suggestion would take us down, financially, and voicing my opinion that I don't think it could work in any way to dedicate one server to every system. I understand you asked for only one system but if we do it for you we have to do it for everyone.
Anywhos, I was being touchy. I apologize.
Edit:
Wait, that wasn't even your suggestion there? Are you refering to something other than you quoted?
I wasn't backing up the suggestion of reinforcing nodes, i was just saying be nice :)
My suggestion is here.
I apologize also for jumping on the slap Prism bandwagon :)
*Gets off the wagon*
P.S I would really appreciate for opinion on my thread.
______________________________________________
Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion
Shamen easily beat me to an announcement and still did not get a sticky. <3, Navigator |
Tyr Zewa
Caldari
Tax Collectors
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:35:00 -
[76]
I think moving agents can't be a solution anyway.
I dunno how exactly load is spread among systems, and if it affects constellation performance or even region performance.
But one way that surely helps to make mission hot spots less of an issue is by adding equally good hotspots.
I myself am happy to use a Q7 agent, in exchange for that, i don't have to suffer the lag hell named umokka.
An other thing with Jita is, why is there no highway AROUND jita, basically you link the systems linked to jita, to create a circle. Dunno if the AP could handle that tough.
5 solutions that remove 20 people each from Jita remove 100, and help everyone.
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:38:00 -
[77]
I don't mission run in the lagged mission hot spots, nor do I hunt mission runners there.
I am doing as much as I can therefore, to alleviate the issue.
Say "Thank you Gaven".
There's a lovely agent 4Q20 for Ministry of war in Zorrabed. Lag, zero. Local population, about 6. Dead end system, sod all chance of lowsec. Lovely. Though I don't know as yet where the Storylines pop to. Might a crappy hauler Storyline for all I know (I'm not skilled at storyline prediction). The MW agent in Aband gives Combat Storylines for Kador in Ghesis. That's quite nice. 33.6% standing to Kador I got on the last one.
Being addicted to Dodixie is horrible affliction. Horrible and unnecessary. Even if you're pumping Gallente for your highsec POS alt... Dodixie is unnecessary.
--
Anything I said above is subject to the standard provision:
Alts subvert it, and make it untrustworthy. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 04/02/2008 12:39:21
Dynamic agent quality gets the award for "Best Idea that is Always Ignored and Shouldn't Be". Just do it. COME ON. It would completely eliminate mission hubs at the cost of lazy people making slightly less isk.
Just make the process slow, so people who pay attention can see that their agent is lowering in quality and decide whether they want to relocate or risk hanging out and see what happens.
edit: or
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I don't mission run in the lagged mission hot spots, nor do I hunt mission runners there.
I am doing as much as I can therefore, to alleviate the issue.
Say "Thank you Gaven".
There's a lovely agent 4Q20 for Ministry of war in Zorrabed. Lag, zero. Local population, about 6. Dead end system, sod all chance of lowsec. Lovely. Though I don't know as yet where the Storylines pop to. Might a crappy hauler Storyline for all I know (I'm not skilled at storyline prediction). The MW agent in Aband gives Combat Storylines for Kador in Ghesis. That's quite nice. 33.6% standing to Kador I got on the last one.
Being addicted to Dodixie is horrible affliction. Horrible and unnecessary. Even if you're pumping Gallente for your highsec POS alt... Dodixie is unnecessary.
IIRC, Min War in Zorrabed generates storylines from another agent in Zorrabed. If not, then it's Asrios or Shemah. Regardless, you shouldn't have to go any farther than Kasi.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
Woot, woot !
I trust you'll keep us even a little bit informed.
Heck, even a "no way, he said this sucks" would be better as no feedback
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Cloning Service
Duvolle Cloning Division
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:15:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Akita T
better THAN no feedback
ffs, broken english
also, yeah... move those agents away from jita.
or just a "if target system = jita, randomize target system and try again"
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hmm, it's actually well over a TB right now which isn't right. Will have to look into that and/or talk to the geniuses down in Ops.
Well sorry. It was a long, long time ago that I placed that region-wide order for Ship Scanners. Like..I was only a noob. And Dianabolic made me (well it was his idea). I'd go and pick them all up but..well..two years on and I can't be bothered 
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:34:00 -
[83]
All these possible changes obviously fall under the "soon"Ö mantra.
Anywhos, after speaking with random (not so random that I left the building and found some bums) people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"Ö initiative so this will change.
Personally, I'm hoping we don't have to resort to blacklisting Jita and other systems but can have some way of generally reducing load on loaded systems by never referring people there, period. And wouldn't it be fun if we'd have agents dynamically move about? (No, I guess I'm the only one on that opinion, at least I reckon I will be once people have had to relocate twice).
As to why this hasn't happened earlier, we've had some more important issues to resolve with our world shaper and apparently there were technical issues with the agent referral.. which I'm not looking much forward to running into buuut.. you can't win them all.
Fly safe.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:50:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Personally, I'm hoping we don't have to resort to blacklisting Jita and other systems but can have some way of generally reducing load on loaded systems by never referring people there, period. And wouldn't it be fun if we'd have agents dynamically move about? (No, I guess I'm the only one on that opinion, at least I reckon I will be once people have had to relocate twice).
One possible solution that might be relatively easy to code:
When an agent provides a player with a mission, it seems like currently he chooses either the current system (60-80%) or a random system 1-2 jumps away (%40-20). Instead of a random system, why not have agents choose the system within two jumps with the smallest player population? While I don't know the exact code agents use to determine what system to send players to, either way they need to select only systems within 2 jumps so I don't think the algorithmic complexity would change (In line for the Need For Speed).
One problem with this might be that agents within 2 jumps of low-sec space are constantly sending players there and as such those agents would go unused. Maybe any low-sec system must be immediately next to the agent's system to be selected.
Of course, you could completely re-work the agent mission location system with an entire A Star Algorithm, but now the AI nerd in me is coming out and I'm getting far too excited.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anywhos, after speaking with random [...]people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"™ initiative so this will change.
Sokath, his eyes open !
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anywhos, after speaking with random [...]people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"Ö initiative so this will change.
Sokath, his eyes open !
I think you need to emphasize to your superiors that the high agent count makes Jita a good location from which to farm for storyline courier missions. I didn't realize this until it was pointed out by someone in the thread, and I think that it's kind of a big deal.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:00:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/02/2008 16:01:26
The simplest auditing tool in CCP's arsenal, if not already there, should be a "number of missions accepted in system", "number of missions in system" and also "number of courier missions going through system".
If at all possible, break that down over individual agents too.
After that, overlapping the "hotspots" of mission activity and that of system load (CPU used %) should pretty easily pinpoint the cause of the problems.
P.S. Yes, it does sound a lot simpler as it is, especially if those things aren't logged yet for that specific purpose.
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:12:00 -
[88]
In my opinion the best solution suggested so far -- to reduce the number of people visiting Jita -- is the introduction of an InterBus system that would allow for transportation of assets by NPC's within a region or at least a limited amount of jumps (you could even have a skill to dictate the range).
It could well have a cargo space restriction to prevent transportation of ships for example, and a transportation duration dependent on amount of jumps aswell as the volume. Say something like 1 minute and 20,000 ISK per 100m3 per jump. And for the sake of risk vs reward, restrict it to highsec.
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
Balance can be tuned with transportation distance, volume restrictions and costs to suit devs' vision of balance of course.
---
CEO
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jin Entres
In my opinion the best solution suggested so far -- to reduce the number of people visiting Jita -- is the introduction of an InterBus system that would allow for transportation of assets by NPC's within a region or at least a limited amount of jumps (you could even have a skill to dictate the range).
It could well have a cargo space restriction to prevent transportation of ships for example, and a transportation duration dependent on amount of jumps aswell as the volume. Say something like 1 minute and 20,000 ISK per 100m3 per jump. And for the sake of risk vs reward, restrict it to highsec.
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
Balance can be tuned with transportation distance, volume restrictions and costs to suit devs' vision of balance of course.
There are some issues with this:
Security
How could we keep players from using this system to move goods through areas that they normally could not due to war declarations? There would have to be some possible way for a warring corporation to intercept these deliveries, which would mandate the introduction of either new mechanics or some kind of corporation-affiliated NPC that could be shot down my the warring groups.
Economics
How could this combat market hubs, which exist primarily because a large amount of products are being sold in a single location? Yes, people wouldn't need to physically be there to pick up said goods, but this wouldn't affect those who advertise contracts in Jita, of which there are a great many.
Cost
How much should this service cost? Should it be extremely cheap and accessible to everyone? Should it be moderately expensive or very expensive, and would that be unfair to newer players who have less ISK and as such would be incapable of using it?
What effect will this have on inflation? On the surface it's an ISK sink but this could affect the market in unseen ways.
How should this service compete with Courier Contracts? There are players who provide this service and Interbus shouldn't be significantly better (overall) because they want player hauling services to be a valid means of making money. Should it cost much more than player contracts (and how do we maintain this ratio?)? Should it take longer? Be less secure?
There are a lot of questions that need to be addressed before Interbus services can be added, perhaps too many to make this a high priority.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:38:00 -
[90]
Quote:
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
If you give enough of a reward for the courier mission, it will be snapped up in no time.
I'd love to see a more robust hauling industry develop, where players could conceivably make all the money they needed off of accepting player courier missions. (Since hauling NPC trade goods back and forth is mostly a good way to lose money now)
But there are so many terrible courier missions out there - 7 jumps and a 70,000 reward. You can do better than that sitting in a belt in hi sec and shooting the rats that spawn.
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