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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:04:00 -
[1]
...every once in a while, I do get an overwhelming feeling of "this is so freaking SIMPLE, why the hell doesn't CCP just do it?"
What am I talking about ?
The usual problem : alleviating LAG.
____
Yes, before you flame me like I would flame others posting something SIMILAR, have a bit of patience and read on.
It's not a "lag solution", you will definetely KEEP having lag anyway.
It's merely a band-aid measure to SLIGHTLY decrease lag in heavy-lag areas.
____
You might remember the day when CCP completely removed all the asteroid belts in several high-lag systems, like Jita and others in a similar situation.
You might also remember that, on occasion, CCP has moved agents around and even talked about adjusting their quality.
Well, WHAT THE HELL IS STOPPING YOU, CCP, FROM DOING THE SAME AGAIN ?
For instance, why not simply move ALL agents out of Jita AND neighbouring systems ?
If you have to leave some agents there and one or two jumps away, only leave some LOW quality, LOW level agents.
Why not regularly (as in, every month or so) move agents out of traditionally high-lag systems, and into the nearest compatible station with a lower lag level ?
Why not regularly (or, hell, DYNAMICALLY) adjust the quality level of agents in high-lag systems down, while increasing the quality of agents in less populated areas ?
Simply put, you have a fairly easy solution to REDUCE lag down a notch and dissipate it across the galaxy, what's stopping you from, you know "just doing it" ?
There must be some logical reason, but I just can't see one where the benefits would not heavily outweigh the drawbacks.
Yes, there are drawbacks too, mainly the "inconvenience" caused to people that were using affected agents.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:07:00 -
[2]
Because CCP's policy is that manually moving agents/belts/stargates ends up being a waste of time. They've done it several times, and each time a new hub forms elsewhere and in the end they haven't done much good.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:09:00 -
[3]
But when some of the better agents are IN Jita, you have to question their competence in choosing what and where to move 
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:10:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
Yes, there are drawbacks too, mainly the "inconvenience" caused to people that were using affected agents.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head. Because people would become infuriated at their agents moving on them, or suddenly lowering in quality. Because some people build their Eve lives (read: wallets) on the ISK these agents provide them (even though they could and should go elsewhere to make ISK and have less lag). More importantly: because there'd be just as much whining about this (and maybe accounts quitting even) than there would be about lag.
And this only solves YOUR problem, with lag in Jita (or Motsu or other high populated systems). This doesn't do anything to help a large number of lag complainers, who are fleets in 0.0. The people who have problems with lag in Jita can always be told one thing: Go somewhere else if you don't like it. You can't exactly tell those to the people fighting wars in 0.0.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:11:00 -
[5]
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
"Bring back the pain."
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 -
[6]
Also, I heard a troubling piece of news recently.
Allegedly, there is no more "node reinforcing" being done for 0.0 "scheduled" combat, on account of doing that creating a mess in the "auto-balance" algorythm for sysyem-on-node relocation.
Shame... shame !
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
Unfortunately, some do. :( And if it was true, and they don't, agents nearby send people to Jita quite often.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:13:00 -
[8]
Take Umokka as an example, the system has a reasonable quality CN level 4 agent which is no where near low sec which attracts lots of mission runners but to make it worse the system has some decent mining with lots of belts and a high proportion of the +10% ores which attracts swarms of hulks.
They put two massive attractions in the system which causes lag when they could reduce it by moving either the agent or the ore out.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
But when some of the better agents are IN Jita, you have to question their competence in choosing what and where to move
True, but the day may come where Jita isn't a market hub anymore. If they moved all the agents from Jita and the surrounding systems, what then? Should they move them back to maintain an even distribution throughout Caldari space? Add additional agents?
I think it's more CCP's stated policy than the actual work required (now or later), but that's just my theory.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic
Because CCP's policy is that manually moving agents/belts/stargates ends up being a waste of time. They've done it several times, and each time a new hub forms elsewhere and in the end they haven't done much good.
I do not think she supposes this would stop hubs. She is just saying since the hub is there move things that could be elsewhere somewhere else. No need to add to the problems of overcrowding by keeping belts in Jita or high level agents in Motsu a few jumps away.
The agent in Motsu would still be swamped of course but move them to some remote corner. No belts in Jita would hardly be a problem (do people actually mine in Jita?).
Personally I love the notion of a dynamic agent quality system. Lets face it, EVERYONE will arrow straight to the highest quality agent they can with a given NPC corp. Instead make overworked agents decrease in quality or rewards (you can RP it that since they have a flood of people seeking the same jobs they can get away with paying less for each job as would happen in any market...unused agents would offer higher pay to lure people to them). This would keep things in flux, keep people moving. You might want to add some random fudge factor since (in theory) this would make all agents the same quality over time as players sought the best ones (they'd all even out). With a bit of random fudge factor you could keep the system dynamic.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
Bitmaps make Jesus cry
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
Bitmaps make Jesus cry
Hence it being a gif?
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 16:34:09
Quote:
Yep, you hit the nail on the head. Because people would become infuriated at their agents moving on them, or suddenly lowering in quality.
The entire reason hubs form in the first place is because of the foolish disparity in agent quality in hi sec.
What purpose does it serve? None whatsoever. Everyone is free to choose any agent they wish. There is no 'upside' to using a lower quality agent when you have a higher quality agent available. Therefore, everyone will gravitate to the best quality agents.
It's easy to mathematically determine which agent is 'best' because their effective quality is based on completely static numbers.
So you have the entire population flocking to a handful of 'best' agents and ignoring all the many 'sub par' agents littered around empire space.
Clearly this is a bad system that provides a strong impetus for creating 'hubs' and lag.
I recommend normalizing agent quality across high sec. (You should do this for lwo sec too, but low sec missioning needs to much help it's not funny, and addressing those problems are beyond the scope of this thread).
This will greatly reduce the number of people going to hubs, by making all agents equally attractive. The population hates lag too, they'll be happy to move around to new agents if they aren't getting poorer rewards by doing so.
There is a further subset of players that would still go to 'hubs' in order to pick and choose their missions. You can compeltely remove the very idea of 'mission hubs' by having an even distribution of evenly qualified agents.
You can leave a few negative quality agents for people trying to raise standings, but really, the plethora of bad quality agents is just silly and contributes directly to everyone going to the 'same' place.
But the bottom line is, as long as some agents are mathematically 'better' than others, the systems containing those agents will be overpopulated and laggy.
The only way to permanently address this is remove the agent quality disparity for agents in hi sec. Make them all 10's or something.
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world? 
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:36:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Yes. You've got to *remove* the hot commodoties by making other commodities equally attractive.
Everyone goes to the 'best' agents. There are only a few 'best' agents and lots of (wasted) bad agents. If all agents were the same, people would have no compelling reason to pick a specific agent over another and the population would naturally disperse into a less laggy equilibrium.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:38:00 -
[17]
Ive got an idea. Why not just move agents around, all the time? Don't mess with their level or quality, just move them around some. IT can be randomized, you can probably automate the entire process. Every week or so move 10% of the agents around.
This will have a decentralizing effect, it will also make some less-than-used agents more used, and some over used agents less used. And hell, it could also get more people out into low sec, as well as occasionally having corps that are traditionally seen as 'bad' for high sec mission running cycled into high sec sometimes.
It, on top of everything else, makes sense. Agents are people, people tend to move around=P
Naturally agents only go to other stations of their corp.
It would mix things up, keep missions interesting ^_^
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data.
I thought the problem stems more from nearby Motsu (and Saila?) which have the best Caldari Navy Agents which people glommed on to figuring Caldari Navy was the only route to a Raven Navy Issue (although not true people stick with it). Those agents send people to Jita.
And, I am guessing, people who want to camp the Jita market may well go ahead and mission there just to have something else to do/make some extra cash. Just guessing on that one though.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ulstan
Yes. You've got to *remove* the hot commodoties by making other commodities equally attractive.
Everyone goes to the 'best' agents. There are only a few 'best' agents and lots of (wasted) bad agents. If all agents were the same, people would have no compelling reason to pick a specific agent over another and the population would naturally disperse into a less laggy equilibrium.
Well, one has to waste their time on the shoddy agents to get faction standing up high enough (assuming that's someone's sole chosen path for doing so) to use the better quality ones.
Maybe the solution is to spread things around more between qualities of agents, so doing the lower quality ones still result in lucrative rewards. That way nothing is considered to be "best" per se, thus the masses won't flock to a select few.
Eh, just an idea.
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Kehmor
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
so move the level 3 and 4 agents to low sec. Problem solved.
PAK is recruiting! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days?
L3 missions are the most cost-effective way of advancing faction standings, and the proximity to a major hub makes LP "liquidation" and loot/salvage selling extremely convenient.
So, yes, a L3 positive quality agent in Jita is a prized commodity.
I would only leave low (negative) quality L2 agents there, and preferably no L1 agents at all (since it would attract too many "newbies").
Also, I suppose you have much better ways to audit WHICH Jita agents are the most used, or which agents send you into Jita to kill ships.
Since, you know, screenshots don't lie.
Jita has a greater number of NPC kills as most neigbouring systems (the only notable exception being Saila), even if Jita has no belts to kill NPCs in.
Now tell me that if those 18+k NPC ships killed in Jita would drop to a mere 4k or even close to zero, Jita wouldn't lag A BIT LESS ?
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Roy Gordon
Caldari
The Star Wolves
Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:54:00 -
[22]
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
The Universe is ruled by three basic principles-
Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:04:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Well, one has to waste their time on the shoddy agents to get faction standing up high enough (assuming that's someone's sole chosen path for doing so) to use the better quality ones.
You only *need* a couple shoddy agents. We have a plethora of them.
You can get your faction standing high enough to do every L4 for a faction doing nothing more than L3's for a little while.
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Monkey's Revenge
Sybrite Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
And guess what. London charges RL úú to enter the capital... Idea? Maybe.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kehmor
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
so move the level 3 and 4 agents to low sec. Problem solved.
Level 4s, anyway... and as long as missions are given a thorough revision to make mission-fits much closer to PvP fits.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Serge Tahlon
Gallente
Templars of Space
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:11:00 -
[26]
how about we could petition before a big 0.0 fight to have all belts removed.
its not as if you cant smell a massive brawl coming days in advance.
especially with strot timers and all.
any little bit would help.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
Make all agents quality zero, or Q 20, Q -20. Just make them all the same, quality problem will then be fixed because it will not exist. Easy.
Next step is then to remove agent levels and allow any agent to hand out any level mission so long as the player has appropriate standings. Then there is no need for mission runners to bunch up.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 01/02/2008 17:15:09
Quote:
Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't
Is it too early to pre-petition a dedicated reinforced node for Rens?
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:25:00 -
[29]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 17:26:15
Rens might already be on one.. I know jita aint the only one at least. We started off with 3 and i'm quite sure people can add to the list behind my back and I haven't checked recently.
Edit: Totally forgot to answer the question.
I don't think you'll get far petitioning, but you wont get pwnt either. Try it, use fancy big words, present your case.. just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
And I think that's the biggest problem CCP contends with. There is a lot CCP could do to fix lag all over the place... with an unlimited budget. They have to work within the money we give them (and do we really want our subscription costs to increase?)
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:52:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
I don't think you'll get far petitioning, but you wont get pwnt either. Try it, use fancy big words, present your case.. just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
Dodixie, nuff said.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
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Szprinkoth Sponsz
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:59:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 17:26:15
Rens might already be on one.. I know jita aint the only one at least. We started off with 3 and i'm quite sure people can add to the list behind my back and I haven't checked recently.
Edit: Totally forgot to answer the question.
I don't think you'll get far petitioning, but you wont get pwnt either. Try it, use fancy big words, present your case.. just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it 
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Fundacion
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:07:00 -
[34]
CCP Prism X,
How large in Gigs is the entire database? Always been wondering this.
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:21:00 -
[35]
Hmm, it's actually well over a TB right now which isn't right. Will have to look into that and/or talk to the geniuses down in Ops.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akita T
But when some of the better agents are IN Jita, you have to question their competence in choosing what and where to move
uh what? theres like crappy level 1 and 2 agents in jita.
Your proposal is actually worse than most of the last 493455494 that have been put together in the last couple months.
One way to start alleviating lag...log in, click "terminate", come back in 10 hours, click "terminate" again, click "yes"....tyvm, before you do all that, gimme ur stuff please?
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
hmmmm CCP Prism is smacktallking alot lately...wonder if hes on his last 2 weeks with CCP or something and has decided to be a total jackass to everyone posting ****?
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
hmmmm CCP Prism is smacktallking alot lately...wonder if hes on his last 2 weeks with CCP or something and has decided to be a total jackass to everyone posting ****?
Oh hell, check his post history. He does this at least once every week or two. 
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
hmmmm CCP Prism is smacktallking alot lately...wonder if hes on his last 2 weeks with CCP or something and has decided to be a total jackass to everyone posting ****?
I hear he's secretly a goon.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
hmmmm CCP Prism is smacktallking alot lately...wonder if hes on his last 2 weeks with CCP or something and has decided to be a total jackass to everyone posting ****?
I hear he's secretly a goon.
Who isn't?
"Bring back the pain."
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:49:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Akita T on 01/02/2008 18:53:37
Ok, my wording might have not been the most fortunate, I'll give you that.
But for a "seeing eye dog", you're definetely a bit blind yourself.
First and foremost, you are completely oblivious of the nice little concept called "Location, Location, Location" !
Also, about the fact that "the better agents" for ME are not the better agents for YOU, and definetely not the better agents for the NEWCOMERS to the game or those that *surprise* prefer to run couriers instead of combat (even if some of the missions they get ARE combat).
And last but not least, the fact that, *oh the shocker*, agents NOT ALWAYS send you to do a mission locally, and as such, a system like Jita (with 7 direct links to other systems) is a prime candidate for "mission in the next system" clutter... you might have noticed I mentioned moving not only Jita agents, but also agents one, even two jumps away from Jita.
Jita has already reached "critical mass" for self-sustenance as a major hub even without other "attractions" in the area.
As such, the main focus should be on removing as much of the "not absolutely necessary" things in and around it that contribute even the least bit to lag IN Jita.
___
P.S. I almost never go to Jita.
I do trade in Jita though.
From 6j away. Remote trade skills to L3 FTW.
1|2|3|4|5. |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:53:00 -
[42]
OK I resent that!
I smack-talk alot, period.
Off late I've pretty much not posted at all. Except today, as I have downtime. And I don't smack-talk unless provoked, otherwise I just give passive aggressive quasi-witty non-answers. Some people like it. The fact that I'm included in "some people who like it" and my superiors are not in the "the people who really oppose it" is enough for me. 
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
|
Seeing EyeDog
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 01/02/2008 18:50:21
Ok, my wording might have not been the most fortunate, I'll give you that.
But for a "seeing eye dog", you're definetely a bit blind yourself.
First and foremost, you are completely oblivious of the nice little concept called "Location, Location, Location" !
Also, about the fact that "the better agents" for ME are not the better agents for YOU, and definetely not the better agents for the NEWCOMERS to the game or those that *surprise* prefer to run couriers instead of combat (even if some of the missions they get ARE combat).
And last but not least, the fact that, *oh the shocker*, agents NOT ALWAYS send you to do a mission locally, and as such, a system like Jita (with 7 direct links to other systems) is a prime candidate for "mission in the next system" clutter... you might have noticed I mentioned moving not only Jita agents, but also agents one, even two jumps away from Jita.
you realize jita is only as clogged as it is b/c everyone thats there is just a lemming who asks "hey where can i go for (x)?" and gets the answer "you can go to jita"...the only thing that will unclutter jita is if people set up another trade hub.
oh and btw, theres other Level 1 and 2 courier missions in systems right by jita, ya know. Take the time to use one of Chribba's fine services. Eve Agent Locator
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
|
Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:56:00 -
[44]
<3 Prism X
---
|
Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
I think if all agents gave out equal lp. E.G All lvl4 highsec agents give out same amount of lp, and all low sec agents give extra bonus obviously etc.
With same amount of lp - then people would spread about and new markets owuld be made to service them. Lets not kid outselves - most mission runners create the lag of overcrowding as there is no alternative to a high qulity agent. Nobody spends their live doinga -17 lvl4 quality agent.
If making them give the same LP is not a solution, then Just add plenty more high quality agents and people will move. Help them move.
Think of the public toilet in the city. People will crowd around it rather than go in the street. Just add more toilets and the problem will...."go" away.
Sig locked, lack of Eve content |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:58:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
oh and btw, theres other Level 1 and 2 courier missions in systems right by jita, ya know.
Yes, those are some of the agents she suggested moving. 
Reading. Another Level. Train it.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
OK I resent that!
I smack-talk alot, period.
Off late I've pretty much not posted at all. Except today, as I have downtime. And I don't smack-talk unless provoked, otherwise I just give passive aggressive quasi-witty non-answers. Some people like it. The fact that I'm included in "some people who like it" and my superiors are not in the "the people who really oppose it" is enough for me.
Dont worry man, if you flew Amarr, then you would find us all feel the same way!
Sig locked, lack of Eve content |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Seeing EyeDog
the only thing that will unclutter jita is if people set up another trade hub
First, see above edit.
You missed a few things that nullify everything you said except the quoted part.
And that quoted part is also partially wrong.
There will never be another trade hub in The Forge (or for that matter, not a large enough one anywhere else in Caldari space) unless you make Jita UNATTRACTIVE enough so people have a reason to move out.
And the only way to make it unattractive enough to compensate for the "network effect" that keeps it self-sustainable would be (especially now, in the age of "warp to zero") if the routes TO Jita would be altered enough to make travel there a pain in the ass (several 100+ AU warps, at least half a dozen extra jumps needed, stuff like that).
1|2|3|4|5. |
Jessamine
Umbra Legion
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:02:00 -
[49]
eve-agents.com is your friends.
17 Agents in Jita, none of them of stellar quality but plenty opportunities to pick up a ton of couriers to net Caldari storylines.
See?
inEvE Stats |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jessamine
Edited by: Jessamine on 01/02/2008 19:07:05
eve-agents.com is your friends.
17 Agents in Jita, none of them of stellar quality but plenty opportunities to pick up a ton of couriers to net Caldari storylines.
Wow, that's an interesting point. I never realized there were so many agents in Jita.
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Dont worry man, if you flew Amarr, then you would find us all feel the same way!
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:18:00 -
[51]
Well all those 17 agents are quiet teh suck. But I'll bring it up with Hammerhead along with some other thoughts gleamed from here. However, that'll be on Monday so I have good 2 entire nights plus an evening to forget that.
Anyone sees me on IRC come monday, pokes me about it and see if I still have an idea.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
|
Major PewPew
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:23:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Major PewPew on 01/02/2008 19:24:01
nvm
|
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:27:00 -
[53]
There are many agents still in Jita.
But more importantly, other agents (some of them quite popular) send you *to* jita.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:29:00 -
[54]
^ what Ulstan said.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Well all those 17 agents are quiet teh suck. But I'll bring it up with Hammerhead along with some other thoughts gleamed from here. However, that'll be on Monday so I have good 2 entire nights plus an evening to forget that.
Anyone sees me on IRC come monday, pokes me about it and see if I still have an idea.
Dude, what did you have for breakfast???
You look all pale and stuff...
Or is that what happens when you work with Databases?
Tell me it aint so, gonna start some sql database work soon...
* looks into mirror *
HOLY, look at me! I am starting to look pale as well!!!!
Rotten databases!!!
|
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:37:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Well all those 17 agents are quiet teh suck. But I'll bring it up with Hammerhead along with some other thoughts gleamed from here. However, that'll be on Monday so I have good 2 entire nights plus an evening to forget that.
Anyone sees me on IRC come monday, pokes me about it and see if I still have an idea.
Dude, what did you have for breakfast???
You look all pale and stuff...
Or is that what happens when you work with Databases?
Tell me it aint so, gonna start some sql database work soon...
* looks into mirror *
HOLY, look at me! I am starting to look pale as well!!!!
Rotten databases!!!
The EVE database is actually held deep inside an underground complex, stored in a twisting series of dark caverns.
After a couple of years Prism X's skin will become translucent and his eyes will become useless.
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Alora Venoda
Caldari
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:38:00 -
[57]
how about this: make some static deadspaces in Jita with lots of mini-stations in different pockets that all connect to the 4-4 station via NPC trade routes or whatever. each pocket would be visible on the overview (similar to cosmos complexes), so you could easily select any of them.
the basic idea is to make more outlets to access the trade hub instead of all trying to use the same one.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:51:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
how about this: make some static deadspaces in Jita with lots of mini-stations in different pockets that all connect to the 4-4 station via NPC trade routes or whatever. each pocket would be visible on the overview (similar to cosmos complexes), so you could easily select any of them.
the basic idea is to make more outlets to access the trade hub instead of all trying to use the same one.
Lag is not caused by being in the same station, but by being in the same system. In other systems, it's population within a certain cluster of systems, but Jita has it's own node. So sites in Jita as you mentioned would do absolute 0 to lag. It just might help people undock without being bumped around so much.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Deviant Pixelus
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 19:55:00 -
[59]
I play on a 95kbps connection.
I go to jita, I go to rens, I go to amaar as well as the gallente
hub. I have no complaints, the only complaint I have is fleet ops lag.
But thats a different subject, different place.
Personally I cant imagine the kind of db work prism would have to carry out
irl to keep eve going.
Hats off to you man. Dedication.
Thats what makes me stick to eve, Dev's responding to people talking.
I cant expect that in any other mmo.
|
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:00:00 -
[60]
Originally by: KapnKaboom
The solution to the problem would be to move all ores except for Veldspar to lowsec or lower, and only allow lvl 2 max agents in highsec. That way everybody would be forced into lowsec to get anything other than trit or a mission worth doing. This would in turn keep the populations, and thus lag, down to manageable levels as the lowsec pirates keep the miner/missioner populations in check.
You forgot to add that this solution is because you want to decrease the subscriber base of Eve by a large percentage (all those people that wouldn't dream of missioning/mining in low sec).
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Yee Do
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:03:00 -
[61]
Wouldn't it be easier if my standing with the corporation was what determined payout rather than agent quality? That way my mission payout would be the same whether I was in Motsu, Irjunen, Dodixie or wherever. I could go to that quiet system nobody bothers with and get the same missions as I do now in lag central.
To address the issue with payouts and sec status, make .5 and above have a modifier of 1 as the danger doing missions in .5 vs .8 systems is the same for all intents and purposes, give .4 and below a better modifier to cover the additional danger of doing missions there.
|
Hamfast
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:05:00 -
[62]
If an agent chooses a system to send a mission runner to carry out some mission by using a set of criteria, why can't those criteria be changed to disallow Jita (and/or other hubs)...
I also like the idea that the quality of an agent should be more a function of the number of mission runners they have, more runners, lower quality... or even like the prices of items sold by NPC's in stations, all agents start out at Quality level 20, as people accept missions (in a day) the quality drops... as fewer missions are accepted, the quality regenerates back closer to 20...
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
|
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:08:00 -
[63]
Quote:
The solution to the problem would be to move all ores except for Veldspar to lowsec or lower, and only allow lvl 2 max agents in highsec. That way everybody would be forced into lowsec to get anything other than trit or a mission worth doing. This would in turn keep the populations, and thus lag, down to manageable levels as the lowsec pirates keep the miner/missioner populations in check.
Actually, don't you think it would be a better idea to remove high sec entirely? Then you'd never ever have to worry about any system being overpopulated again.
|
Lysander Memnos
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:20:00 -
[64]
What exactly causes the lag in Jita? Hundreds of pilots aren't all in one location (e.g. stargate to X) so it probably isn't lag from waiting for positional updates. Market activites are instantaneous and there's quite a bit of that in Jita, so maybe this is a culprit suitable for modification. Maybe the stations/markets should be offloaded to their own node (if that's even possible) rather than the Jita system itself. Also, changing how market queries are done from outside of Jita (price checks, etc...) should be on a further delayed basis to keep the DB thrashing down?
Glad to see some Dev involvement and useful information, though.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 22:08:00 -
[65]
As long as the beer doesn't wash away all memories of this thread, we're good
1|2|3|4|5. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 11:39:00 -
[66]
Hey, look, what do you know, it's Monday already.
WAKE UP, CCP Prism X !
1|2|3|4|5. |
Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 11:43:00 -
[67]
And since Akita's already summoned you, Prism X:
What about the Triangle of Death? Surely that's an obvious example of too many agents = system lag. Wouldn't dispersal with some forethought alleviate that problem?
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 11:45:00 -
[68]
It's the Quadrilater of Death nowadays 
Aramachi<->Laah<->Motsu<->Saila<->Aramachi
1|2|3|4|5. |
Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 11:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akita T
It's the Quadrilater of Death nowadays
Aramachi<->Laah<->Motsu<->Saila<->Aramachi
Or the Mega-Dodecahedralateralon of Death. (Whee!)
Regardless, clusterf***. Bad design. Fix.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
|
Pan Crastus
Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
How expensive can it possibly be? From the last dev posts about hardware we gather that CCP uses PC-based servers with rather mundane specs. You can buy high-end boxes with 4-8 cores and 32GB+ RAM for just a few $1000 these days (well maybe not from IBM, but try appro.com etc.).
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
|
Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:03:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
Our single sub doesn't cover it no, but the thousands of players involved in this content that they have made them selfs subs should cover it, I'm sure they cover your wage packet also as well as most other employees...
First rule of business, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
______________________________________________
Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion |
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:11:00 -
[72]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 04/02/2008 12:16:04
I'm not trying to insult you, bite the hand that feeds me (*removed me being touchy*) or deny you fair service. If you think we can function once we start using all our subscription money to buy a dedicated server for every system that someone requests, you're mistaken. I'm not explaining this further because I don't think you'll agree whatever I say. Essentially it's the whole "You did this for them, why not us?!" and suddenly we've spent all CCP Employers salary on new hardware and EVE goes under.
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
|
Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:15:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
I'm not trying to insult you, bite the hand that feeds me (and you don't feed me, I feed myself through the efforts I put into getting to where I am in life OR, alternatively if you want to do this through transitive relationships, whoever pays your salaries does) or deny you fair service. If you think we can function once we start using all our subscription money to buy a dedicated server for every system that someone requests, you're mistaken. I'm not explaining this further because I don't think you'll agree whatever I say. Essentially it's the whole "You did this for them, why not us?!" and suddenly we've spent all CCP Employers salary on new hardware and EVE goes under.
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
My post was not meant to get your back-up. I'm just saying as a CCP rep you need to have slightly more tact than "well my superiors don't care so i don't".
Anyway, a way to fix lag, don't advertise through steam until infiniband comes to fruition - otherwise we return to RMR days, and i'm sure you remember those.
______________________________________________
Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion |
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:19:00 -
[74]
Im not saying my superior doesn't care. I'm saying you don't realize what road your suggestion would take us down, financially, and voicing my opinion that I don't think it could work in any way to dedicate one server to every system. I understand you asked for only one system but if we do it for you we have to do it for everyone.
Anywhos, I was being touchy. I apologize.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
|
Shamen
Amarr
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:22:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 04/02/2008 12:19:54
Im not saying my superior doesn't care. I'm saying you don't realize what road your suggestion would take us down, financially, and voicing my opinion that I don't think it could work in any way to dedicate one server to every system. I understand you asked for only one system but if we do it for you we have to do it for everyone.
Anywhos, I was being touchy. I apologize.
Edit:
Wait, that wasn't even your suggestion there? Are you refering to something other than you quoted?
I wasn't backing up the suggestion of reinforcing nodes, i was just saying be nice :)
My suggestion is here.
I apologize also for jumping on the slap Prism bandwagon :)
*Gets off the wagon*
P.S I would really appreciate for opinion on my thread.
______________________________________________
Shamen
Dark Angel Battalion
Shamen easily beat me to an announcement and still did not get a sticky. <3, Navigator |
Tyr Zewa
Caldari
Tax Collectors
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:35:00 -
[76]
I think moving agents can't be a solution anyway.
I dunno how exactly load is spread among systems, and if it affects constellation performance or even region performance.
But one way that surely helps to make mission hot spots less of an issue is by adding equally good hotspots.
I myself am happy to use a Q7 agent, in exchange for that, i don't have to suffer the lag hell named umokka.
An other thing with Jita is, why is there no highway AROUND jita, basically you link the systems linked to jita, to create a circle. Dunno if the AP could handle that tough.
5 solutions that remove 20 people each from Jita remove 100, and help everyone.
|
Gaven Blands
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:38:00 -
[77]
I don't mission run in the lagged mission hot spots, nor do I hunt mission runners there.
I am doing as much as I can therefore, to alleviate the issue.
Say "Thank you Gaven".
There's a lovely agent 4Q20 for Ministry of war in Zorrabed. Lag, zero. Local population, about 6. Dead end system, sod all chance of lowsec. Lovely. Though I don't know as yet where the Storylines pop to. Might a crappy hauler Storyline for all I know (I'm not skilled at storyline prediction). The MW agent in Aband gives Combat Storylines for Kador in Ghesis. That's quite nice. 33.6% standing to Kador I got on the last one.
Being addicted to Dodixie is horrible affliction. Horrible and unnecessary. Even if you're pumping Gallente for your highsec POS alt... Dodixie is unnecessary.
--
Anything I said above is subject to the standard provision:
Alts subvert it, and make it untrustworthy. |
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 04/02/2008 12:39:21
Dynamic agent quality gets the award for "Best Idea that is Always Ignored and Shouldn't Be". Just do it. COME ON. It would completely eliminate mission hubs at the cost of lazy people making slightly less isk.
Just make the process slow, so people who pay attention can see that their agent is lowering in quality and decide whether they want to relocate or risk hanging out and see what happens.
edit: or
|
Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 12:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I don't mission run in the lagged mission hot spots, nor do I hunt mission runners there.
I am doing as much as I can therefore, to alleviate the issue.
Say "Thank you Gaven".
There's a lovely agent 4Q20 for Ministry of war in Zorrabed. Lag, zero. Local population, about 6. Dead end system, sod all chance of lowsec. Lovely. Though I don't know as yet where the Storylines pop to. Might a crappy hauler Storyline for all I know (I'm not skilled at storyline prediction). The MW agent in Aband gives Combat Storylines for Kador in Ghesis. That's quite nice. 33.6% standing to Kador I got on the last one.
Being addicted to Dodixie is horrible affliction. Horrible and unnecessary. Even if you're pumping Gallente for your highsec POS alt... Dodixie is unnecessary.
IIRC, Min War in Zorrabed generates storylines from another agent in Zorrabed. If not, then it's Asrios or Shemah. Regardless, you shouldn't have to go any farther than Kasi.
Originally by: Frug
Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 14:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anyways, thank you Akita. I'll go and talk to Hammerhead after lunch and see what he thinks of certain things.
Woot, woot !
I trust you'll keep us even a little bit informed.
Heck, even a "no way, he said this sucks" would be better as no feedback
1|2|3|4|5. |
Cloning Service
Duvolle Cloning Division
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 15:15:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Akita T
better THAN no feedback
ffs, broken english
also, yeah... move those agents away from jita.
or just a "if target system = jita, randomize target system and try again"
|
Andrue
Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 15:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hmm, it's actually well over a TB right now which isn't right. Will have to look into that and/or talk to the geniuses down in Ops.
Well sorry. It was a long, long time ago that I placed that region-wide order for Ship Scanners. Like..I was only a noob. And Dianabolic made me (well it was his idea). I'd go and pick them all up but..well..two years on and I can't be bothered
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 15:34:00 -
[83]
All these possible changes obviously fall under the "soon"Ö mantra.
Anywhos, after speaking with random (not so random that I left the building and found some bums) people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"Ö initiative so this will change.
Personally, I'm hoping we don't have to resort to blacklisting Jita and other systems but can have some way of generally reducing load on loaded systems by never referring people there, period. And wouldn't it be fun if we'd have agents dynamically move about? (No, I guess I'm the only one on that opinion, at least I reckon I will be once people have had to relocate twice).
As to why this hasn't happened earlier, we've had some more important issues to resolve with our world shaper and apparently there were technical issues with the agent referral.. which I'm not looking much forward to running into buuut.. you can't win them all.
Fly safe.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
DB-Dev! Not Administration, Community Manager, Customer Support, Content Developer and most definitely not a P.R. representative. |
|
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 15:50:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Personally, I'm hoping we don't have to resort to blacklisting Jita and other systems but can have some way of generally reducing load on loaded systems by never referring people there, period. And wouldn't it be fun if we'd have agents dynamically move about? (No, I guess I'm the only one on that opinion, at least I reckon I will be once people have had to relocate twice).
One possible solution that might be relatively easy to code:
When an agent provides a player with a mission, it seems like currently he chooses either the current system (60-80%) or a random system 1-2 jumps away (%40-20). Instead of a random system, why not have agents choose the system within two jumps with the smallest player population? While I don't know the exact code agents use to determine what system to send players to, either way they need to select only systems within 2 jumps so I don't think the algorithmic complexity would change (In line for the Need For Speed).
One problem with this might be that agents within 2 jumps of low-sec space are constantly sending players there and as such those agents would go unused. Maybe any low-sec system must be immediately next to the agent's system to be selected.
Of course, you could completely re-work the agent mission location system with an entire A Star Algorithm, but now the AI nerd in me is coming out and I'm getting far too excited.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anywhos, after speaking with random [...]people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"™ initiative so this will change.
Sokath, his eyes open !
1|2|3|4|5. |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 15:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Anywhos, after speaking with random [...]people and mentioning that there are still agents in Jita and to compound that other agents are sending players there to crash and burn. This obviously doesn't go well with the "Need For Speed"Ö initiative so this will change.
Sokath, his eyes open !
I think you need to emphasize to your superiors that the high agent count makes Jita a good location from which to farm for storyline courier missions. I didn't realize this until it was pointed out by someone in the thread, and I think that it's kind of a big deal.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:00:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/02/2008 16:01:26
The simplest auditing tool in CCP's arsenal, if not already there, should be a "number of missions accepted in system", "number of missions in system" and also "number of courier missions going through system".
If at all possible, break that down over individual agents too.
After that, overlapping the "hotspots" of mission activity and that of system load (CPU used %) should pretty easily pinpoint the cause of the problems.
P.S. Yes, it does sound a lot simpler as it is, especially if those things aren't logged yet for that specific purpose.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:12:00 -
[88]
In my opinion the best solution suggested so far -- to reduce the number of people visiting Jita -- is the introduction of an InterBus system that would allow for transportation of assets by NPC's within a region or at least a limited amount of jumps (you could even have a skill to dictate the range).
It could well have a cargo space restriction to prevent transportation of ships for example, and a transportation duration dependent on amount of jumps aswell as the volume. Say something like 1 minute and 20,000 ISK per 100m3 per jump. And for the sake of risk vs reward, restrict it to highsec.
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
Balance can be tuned with transportation distance, volume restrictions and costs to suit devs' vision of balance of course.
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CEO
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jin Entres
In my opinion the best solution suggested so far -- to reduce the number of people visiting Jita -- is the introduction of an InterBus system that would allow for transportation of assets by NPC's within a region or at least a limited amount of jumps (you could even have a skill to dictate the range).
It could well have a cargo space restriction to prevent transportation of ships for example, and a transportation duration dependent on amount of jumps aswell as the volume. Say something like 1 minute and 20,000 ISK per 100m3 per jump. And for the sake of risk vs reward, restrict it to highsec.
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
Balance can be tuned with transportation distance, volume restrictions and costs to suit devs' vision of balance of course.
There are some issues with this:
Security
How could we keep players from using this system to move goods through areas that they normally could not due to war declarations? There would have to be some possible way for a warring corporation to intercept these deliveries, which would mandate the introduction of either new mechanics or some kind of corporation-affiliated NPC that could be shot down my the warring groups.
Economics
How could this combat market hubs, which exist primarily because a large amount of products are being sold in a single location? Yes, people wouldn't need to physically be there to pick up said goods, but this wouldn't affect those who advertise contracts in Jita, of which there are a great many.
Cost
How much should this service cost? Should it be extremely cheap and accessible to everyone? Should it be moderately expensive or very expensive, and would that be unfair to newer players who have less ISK and as such would be incapable of using it?
What effect will this have on inflation? On the surface it's an ISK sink but this could affect the market in unseen ways.
How should this service compete with Courier Contracts? There are players who provide this service and Interbus shouldn't be significantly better (overall) because they want player hauling services to be a valid means of making money. Should it cost much more than player contracts (and how do we maintain this ratio?)? Should it take longer? Be less secure?
There are a lot of questions that need to be addressed before Interbus services can be added, perhaps too many to make this a high priority.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:38:00 -
[90]
Quote:
People don't use player courier contracts because they are impatient and not prepared to wait or resent the uncertainty of schedule. I would argue that a substantial portion of Jita visitors only go there to get stuff from the market or contracts, and most often the volumes are relatively small. Many would be prepared to pay some ISK to avoid the hassle, which would also function as an ISK sink.
If you give enough of a reward for the courier mission, it will be snapped up in no time.
I'd love to see a more robust hauling industry develop, where players could conceivably make all the money they needed off of accepting player courier missions. (Since hauling NPC trade goods back and forth is mostly a good way to lose money now)
But there are so many terrible courier missions out there - 7 jumps and a 70,000 reward. You can do better than that sitting in a belt in hi sec and shooting the rats that spawn.
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Agent Li
Caldari
Galactic Defence Consortium
BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:48:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
This.
Even if you removed all the agents from Jita and the surrounding area, the market would still exist. It might not even move at all, because everyone who does trading has already set up shop there, and everyone who wants to buy and sell will go there to hook up with the best traders and trades.
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Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire. |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:49:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Tarminic
There are some issues with this:
Security
How could we keep players from using this system to move goods through areas that they normally could not due to war declarations? There would have to be some possible way for a warring corporation to intercept these deliveries, which would mandate the introduction of either new mechanics or some kind of corporation-affiliated NPC that could be shot down my the warring groups.
I think this can be balanced with limitations in volume and possibly increases in cost if the service user is involved in wars. Another limitation to consider is faction, deadspace and officer modules aswell as blueprint originals. You could just disallow transporting them via InterBus completely so that players would always have to take the risk and move them manually.
Originally by: Tarminic
Economics
How could this combat market hubs, which exist primarily because a large amount of products are being sold in a single location? Yes, people wouldn't need to physically be there to pick up said goods, but this wouldn't affect those who advertise contracts in Jita, of which there are a great many.
This is true for resellers mostly, and I think the consequence would be that the advertising would move primarily to the appropriate trade channels. Of course there would still be a lot of people in Jita looking out for good bargains etc. but the goal is not to empty the place but to reduce the traffic.
Originally by: Tarminic
Cost
How much should this service cost? Should it be extremely cheap and accessible to everyone? Should it be moderately expensive or very expensive, and would that be unfair to newer players who have less ISK and as such would be incapable of using it?
What effect will this have on inflation? On the surface it's an ISK sink but this could affect the market in unseen ways.
This is an optional service. New players who can not afford it can simply go get the stuff themselves like everyone has to now. Of course it can't be too expensive or no one will use it. A balance can be sought through manipulating the cost based on distance, volume and possibly item base price.
I am not a market analyst and as such someone else would have to evaluate how this could affect the market, but I think it's an idea worth pursuing.
Originally by: Tarminic
How should this service compete with Courier Contracts? There are players who provide this service and Interbus shouldn't be significantly better (overall) because they want player hauling services to be a valid means of making money. Should it cost much more than player contracts (and how do we maintain this ratio?)? Should it take longer? Be less secure?
I think the InterBus should be faster while player couriers should be cheaper and focus on longer distance and higher volume. The main function of the InterBus should be to allow for quick transportation of volumes under 500m3 which make up the frequent but random module and ammo needs that a large portion of Jita visitors are there for. If you limit it to say 5 or 10 jumps (depending on skill?), it does not obsolete the player courier system since most of them extend beyond that. Similarly you could limit the volume (sorry if I'm repeating myself  )
---
CEO
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:56:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Agent Li
Originally by: Roy Gordon
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
This.
Even if you removed all the agents from Jita and the surrounding area, the market would still exist. It might not even move at all, because everyone who does trading has already set up shop there, and everyone who wants to buy and sell will go there to hook up with the best traders and trades.
Read the thread again and realize that the suggestion to change agents in and around Jita is not for the effect of destroying it as a trade hub, but for the purpose of (a) reducing lag in Jita, and (b) not forcing mission runners around Jita to have to face the lag bomb that is Jita.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:58:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Jin Entres
I think this can be balanced with limitations in volume and possibly increases in cost if the service user is involved in wars. Another limitation to consider is faction, deadspace and officer modules aswell as blueprint originals. You could just disallow transporting them via InterBus completely so that players would always have to take the risk and move them manually.
Besides the reasons that Tarminic mentioned, the developers don't want to give players even more reason to not play the game.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 17:11:00 -
[95]
The last word I heard about InterBus was that it would have to be limited to "constellation only", as for the other limitations (time delays, cost, method of shipment), everything was still up in the air.
While the implementation of (even this heavily pre-nerfed form of) Interbus would bring lag in Jita (and other hubs) down substantially if attractive enough to use (and you can't have it TOO attractive either, sadly), the balance that needs to be stricken between convenience, cost and associated risk (if any) apparently proved more work as initially expected.
Not only the matter of balancing it properly, but we're also talking a whole separate set of services from what we have right now, so I'm not putting my hopes up of seing it "come alive" in any near future I can envision.
On the flip side, simply moving or altering agents is a relatively easy task (once you decide which ones you want changed), and implementation of a "do not send people to this list of systems" feature in mission destination selection algorythms seems quite straightforward in comparison to a full-blown InterBus system too.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 17:45:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Tarminic on 04/02/2008 17:50:39
Originally by: Akita T
The last word I heard about InterBus was that it would have to be limited to "constellation only", as for the other limitations (time delays, cost, method of shipment), everything was still up in the air.
I'm kind of interested in the effect that might have - distributing markets through constellations instead of systems...
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 17:50:00 -
[97]
Akita mentions it in passing in the OP.
DYNAMIC Agent Quality.
This is possible long term solution to players clumping around high quality agents and should be seriously considered.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
ElweSingollo
Starlancers
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 18:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Akita T
Also, I heard a troubling piece of news recently.
Allegedly, there is no more "node reinforcing" being done for 0.0 "scheduled" combat, on account of doing that creating a mess in the "auto-balance" algorythm for sysyem-on-node relocation.
Shame... shame !
Hmm well that goes against what I understood to be the situation that happened in pf- yesterday when there was 150 odd local defending and we expected approx 150-200+ incoming from what I understood we had petitioned for node to be re-inforced and that was being done....
CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
In Before I Get M***** Again
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:19:00 -
[99]
That's why I said "allegedly"
1|2|3|4|5. |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 18:28:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Originally by: Jin Entres
I think this can be balanced with limitations in volume and possibly increases in cost if the service user is involved in wars. Another limitation to consider is faction, deadspace and officer modules aswell as blueprint originals. You could just disallow transporting them via InterBus completely so that players would always have to take the risk and move them manually.
Besides the reasons that Tarminic mentioned, the developers don't want to give players even more reason to not play the game.
I have three rebuttals to your point:
1. A courier system already exists which removes the need from a player to transport his or her own stuff. Granted it shifts the work to another player, but it still effectively encourages players not to "play the game", by your definition.
2. Lag is one of the biggest if not the single greatest reason players do not play the game. Reducing it, if anything, encourages players to play the game more.
3. Players are motivated by meaningful gameplay. Fetching a few modules does not constitute that, and in fact this kind of convenience may on the contrary encourage players to engage in activities that they enjoy more in the game because there is less of a mandatory and rather meaningless timesink involved.
---
CEO
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:48:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
It's not and people should stop repeating this nonsense.
The fact that such huge trade hubs exist in EVE is mostly due to the sharding of the market into regions. If people oculd see the cheapest offer universe-wide from anywhere, they would go there and many smaller trade hubs would be established. Right now they just go to Jita/Rens/Oursulaert because they cannot see the prices outside their current region but *assume* that those places have good prices. Thus it becomes more important for sellers to concentrate on those known hubs and so on.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:29:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Jin Entres
I have three rebuttals to your point:
1. A courier system already exists which removes the need from a player to transport his or her own stuff. Granted it shifts the work to another player, but it still effectively encourages players not to "play the game", by your definition.
I didn't define "not play the game" to any extent, so "by my definition" is kind of funny, actually. As you said, it shifts the work to another player, so someone is still playing the game to move that around.
Anyways, here's a quote from a previous dev post on the subject that shows what I was really trying to say as to why it will not happen (not until someone can fix the problems with it):
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
We have also considered 'enabling' Interbus inside a region so that you can have you modules delivered anywhere in the region, for a price and a short delay, but this kills courier contracts and logistics, as you get everything delivered with no risk .... again not a solution.
If you have any suggestions to overcome these problems then we are more than willing to listen as we are trying to solve the problem, but when you look at the suggested solutions closely you see they have side-effects that we do not want even more than the current problem.
I did suggest that we put in code that anyone that logs off in Jita is randomly moved to a 0.0 station, but this, while funny, also does not really solve the problem.
Yes there is a problem with Jita, not with how it works, there is nothing wrong with market hubs, but that we need to be able to scale it more.
Hope this lets you see that we ARE looking into the problem, but we want to Solve it in such a way that does not create more problems.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Kroma BaSyl
Amarr
Snickers Inc
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 19:42:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Kroma BaSyl on 04/02/2008 19:42:51
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it
Does it cover an expectation that your product function as advertised? "Massively multiplayer".
The lag in mid to large scale combat (let's not even talk about Jita) would seem to suggest otherwise.
I agree that throwing hardware at the problem won't solve it ultimately. Better code and loadbalancing schemes will though, and that's what we are paying our subs for.
Kroma BaSyl
CEO - Snickers Inc
Don't hate me because I am beautiful! |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 19:46:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kroma BaSyl
Does it cover an expectation that your product function as advertised? "Massively multiplayer".
Name another "Massively Multiplayer" game that can get the same amount of people in space with less lag. They can't, hence they shard their servers, which we all don't want, and will never see, with Eve.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Swedish Bob
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:52:00 -
[105]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Give us a dedicated node for QY6-RK please.
Thanks in advance, Eurosquad poster extraordinare Szprinkoth Sponsz.
Fork out the cash for:
1) The hardware
2) My travel to London along with keep.
3) Bribe the administration to give me the days off which will probably include paying my salary + the salary of whoever has to replace me so it will be business as usual.
And we can talk shop. Amazingly your sub doesn't cover it
Nah but considering the load difference of empire/losec to nullsec that isn't happening, ever.
Ok CCP doesn't want to fork out for more hardware. Which is reasonable since I have a feeling a good chunk of it is under utilized as it is. How about instead you start moving cluster balancing to a more predictive stance and rebalance more often for areas that have a significant predicted deficit? 0.0 high combat areas are not always full they usually get high for a few hours then calm down again. I don't think people would mind if that particular system went down and then back up if it meant things wouldn't be constantly lagged out. Hell just have the predictor look at various things like auto-pilot destinations, previous history, present alliances in there, ramp up.
Even taking down unneeded systems might be nice. How long does it take a system to start up cold? Develop a fixup script that brings the system and its db entries up to current with the cluster. Looking at the 30 minute map, 0.0 has a ton of dark systems. Empire, not nearly as much.
As far as Jita goes, just raise significantly the sales tax there. Arbitrage will work against using that system. Also dumping people int a mandatory 15 minute queue will discourage them from going there or logging there unless they really need to.
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Lysander Memnos
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 19:52:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Frug
DYNAMIC Agent Quality.
This is possible long term solution to players clumping around high quality agents and should be seriously considered.
A good idea but there is the potential for griefing behavior - overload system with trial accounts to drop Agent Quality, for example.
Easiest quick-fix solution is to move agents out of Jita and prevent agent missions sending players to Jita. Observe and review for 2-3 months; surely CCP can do some analysis on player count before/after, node load, etc. If (big if) it ends up not making any quantifiable difference, put the agents back. Say it was Caldari New Year or something, everyone took a vacation at the same time.
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Kroma BaSyl
Amarr
Snickers Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:53:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Originally by: Kroma BaSyl
Does it cover an expectation that your product function as advertised? "Massively multiplayer".
Name another "Massively Multiplayer" game that can get the same amount of people in space with less lag. They can't, hence they shard their servers, which we all don't want, and will never see, with Eve.
200 people in space (on grid) ain't that many, and it causes the game to be unplayable due to lag loading grid and such.
While technically we aren't sharding in the sense that there is 1 central DB fir the universe, the whole system of solar systems and grids has a similar effect or isolating players to nods. (or it should have if implemented properly). In any case, your just making an excuse for a poor imlementation, as it should be more than technically possible to handle the loads on the current hardware.
Kroma BaSyl
CEO - Snickers Inc
Don't hate me because I am beautiful! |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 19:53:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
I didn't define "not play the game" to any extent, so "by my definition" is kind of funny, actually. As you said, it shifts the work to another player, so someone is still playing the game to move that around.
Poor choice of words, I admit. But your meaning was implicit, and my points stand.
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Anyways, here's a quote from a previous dev post on the subject that shows what I was really trying to say as to why it will not happen (not until someone can fix the problems with it)
I don't see why tampering with restrictions couldn't address the issues of A. killing courier contracts and B. logistics and C. the risk aspect, so I think CCP should give this option more consideration. I've addressed my views on how in the preceding posts.
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CEO
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.05 00:46:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Lysander Memnos
Originally by: Frug
DYNAMIC Agent Quality.
This is possible long term solution to players clumping around high quality agents and should be seriously considered.
A good idea but there is the potential for griefing behavior - overload system with trial accounts to drop Agent Quality, for example.
Easiest quick-fix solution is to move agents out of Jita and prevent agent missions sending players to Jita. Observe and review for 2-3 months; surely CCP can do some analysis on player count before/after, node load, etc. If (big if) it ends up not making any quantifiable difference, put the agents back. Say it was Caldari New Year or something, everyone took a vacation at the same time.
Why should they bother to do anything with agents if they aren't going to do the same for all crowded mission systems? Jita is not the only place in the game that lags. And besides for Jita, the laggiest empire systems are all mission hubs.
Dynamic agent quality is the perfect solution to crowded agent systems everywhere. The answer to your abuse is simple, only completed missions would affect the potential quality adjustment of an agent. So if people wanted to "abuse" anything, they would have to do the missions like anybody else which IMO would be no problem. If the process was slow that would hinder them even further.
They should NOT move agents, because that actually forces players to move which is a bad thing. And agent effective quality should still work like it does... so working for the same agent over time will yield greater pay. That part makes sense and is fine.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.02.05 03:42:00 -
[110]
All i have to say.... dodixe.
Also. Why can't we get more decent quality level 4 agents in other places in empire. If we want the best agents where both our connections books are put to use we are forced to use fed navy in dodixie... more options please.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.02.05 03:53:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Originally by: Jin Entres
I have three rebuttals to your point:
1. A courier system already exists which removes the need from a player to transport his or her own stuff. Granted it shifts the work to another player, but it still effectively encourages players not to "play the game", by your definition.
I didn't define "not play the game" to any extent, so "by my definition" is kind of funny, actually. As you said, it shifts the work to another player, so someone is still playing the game to move that around.
Anyways, here's a quote from a previous dev post on the subject that shows what I was really trying to say as to why it will not happen (not until someone can fix the problems with it):
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
We have also considered 'enabling' Interbus inside a region so that you can have you modules delivered anywhere in the region, for a price and a short delay, but this kills courier contracts and logistics, as you get everything delivered with no risk .... again not a solution.
If you have any suggestions to overcome these problems then we are more than willing to listen as we are trying to solve the problem, but when you look at the suggested solutions closely you see they have side-effects that we do not want even more than the current problem.
I did suggest that we put in code that anyone that logs off in Jita is randomly moved to a 0.0 station, but this, while funny, also does not really solve the problem.
Yes there is a problem with Jita, not with how it works, there is nothing wrong with market hubs, but that we need to be able to scale it more.
Hope this lets you see that we ARE looking into the problem, but we want to Solve it in such a way that does not create more problems.
/me wants to appear in random 0.0 station!!!!!!
as for overcoming the problems, very limited delivery range would be quite acceptable, to me, flying to perimeter to pick up some mods at jita prices is a far better alternative to actually going into jita and a 1 jump difference.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.02.05 04:08:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Personally, I'm hoping we don't have to resort to blacklisting Jita and other systems but can have some way of generally reducing load on loaded systems by never referring people there, period. And wouldn't it be fun if we'd have agents dynamically move about? (No, I guess I'm the only one on that opinion, at least I reckon I will be once people have had to relocate twice).
Fly safe.
if moving rigged ships wasn't such a pain in the ass
makes me think what do i need for successful mission running. 2x each hardener, and a crap ton of ammo, mission bs + salvage destroyer + badger for loots pickup/transport.
also why does say amarr navy have 4 q20 agents, same division, in the same station, happens to be lowsec.
and sorry, really haven't a clue, but how does agent quality, and sec status effect mission rewards? I know higher quality lower sec higher rewards. although someone was complaining that they barely got any better lp running missions in lowsec as compared to a .5
know for me at least that the effective quality of the guy in irjunen is 34 or something. thats with like social/connections 3 and a 10.00 standing
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.02.05 04:13:00 -
[113]
Who actually does courier contracts anyway? most of them suck for the ammount of isk paid and the m3 of stuff you have to haul, not to mention the insane deposit some people ask.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
TypoNinja
Caldari
Void Angels
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2008.02.05 07:26:00 -
[114]
Lag is a serous issue, its easily the biggest issue in the game at the moment, I don't think theres any game mechanic or even bug that attracts as much pure hatred as the lag monster.
I personally would feel i got every pennys worth out of my subscription fee if the next major game update didn't include even a single new ship, module, mission, or anything else. No bug fixes, no content upgrades nothing.
If the entire patch notes read simply "Sorry no new stuff but we spent 10,000 man hours optimizing the code and databases"
I'd be freaking thrilled.
Easy solution in the mean time, find every trail account that hasn't been played in two week and click delete.
Sit back and watch the database shrink :D
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:23:00 -
[115]
Originally by: TypoNinja
Easy solution in the mean time, find every trail account that hasn't been played in two week and click delete.
Sit back and watch the database shrink :D
You do realize that characters/account that don't actively login to play have practically no impact whatsoever on performance, do you ?
1|2|3|4|5. |
Herbaliser
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Posted - 2008.02.05 13:45:00 -
[116]
This might be a completely stupid idea for any number of reasons I haven't thought of yet... but why not introduce this:
CONGESTION CHARGE
It seems that the amount of ISK charged for renting offices in popular systems is proportional to the popularity of the system. So why not charge a proportional amount of ISK for people to enter systems that are heavily populated.
This charge should rise exponentially according to how many people are in the system.
Dunno what you guys think but having to pay, for example, 10m to enter a system with 100 people in it would certainly act as a mild deterrant, and having to pay 100m to enter a system with 300 people in it would certainly help reduce fleet-based lag fests and deliberate node pops. The cost would be astronomical.
And it would need a pop-up warning you of the charge with an option to turn it off and enter regardless, as long as you can afford to. :)
Herb
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Killer Dragon
Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2008.02.05 16:16:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Herbaliser
This might be a completely stupid idea for any number of reasons I haven't thought of yet... but why not introduce this:
CONGESTION CHARGE
The problem with this, is that it would act as a warning system for people jumping into a gate camp or were there is heavy activity in 0.0. Option 2 would be to apply this system only to empire, then it would work. But as a side effect every time you wanted to go to jita(or any other hub system) you would have to pay a premium just to get in.
In theory if applied only in empire this would make it so that the market is more well stocked in different areas rather then being all piled up in one place.
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Kroma BaSyl
Amarr
Snickers Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 17:41:00 -
[118]
Originally by: TypoNinja
Lag is a serous issue, its easily the biggest issue in the game at the moment, I don't think theres any game mechanic or even bug that attracts as much pure hatred as the lag monster.
I personally would feel i got every pennys worth out of my subscription fee if the next major game update didn't include even a single new ship, module, mission, or anything else. No bug fixes, no content upgrades nothing.
If the entire patch notes read simply "Sorry no new stuff but we spent 10,000 man hours optimizing the code and databases"
I'd be freaking thrilled.
Easy solution in the mean time, find every trail account that hasn't been played in two week and click delete.
Sit back and watch the database shrink :D
You Sur are my hero.
Kroma BaSyl
CEO - Snickers Inc
Don't hate me because I am beautiful! |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.05 17:48:00 -
[119]
Originally by: TypoNinja
Lag is a serous issue, its easily the biggest issue in the game at the moment, I don't think theres any game mechanic or even bug that attracts as much pure hatred as the lag monster.
I personally would feel i got every pennys worth out of my subscription fee if the next major game update didn't include even a single new ship, module, mission, or anything else. No bug fixes, no content upgrades nothing.
If the entire patch notes read simply "Sorry no new stuff but we spent 10,000 man hours optimizing the code and databases"
I'd be freaking thrilled.
Unfortunately, only a small proportion of CCP's staff can work on optimizing code/fixing bugs, so to do this would mean either laying off or giving paid vacations to two thirds of their staff. Remember that staff can't be assigned to work on areas where they'd do more harm than good.
Quote:
Easy solution in the mean time, find every trail account that hasn't been played in two week and click delete.
Sit back and watch the database shrink :D
I don't think that database access times are the problem, especially given the second RANSAM they added recently.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:21:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Tarminic
Remember that staff can't be assigned to work on areas where they'd do more harm than good.
Whaaaat, you mean, database engineers working on mission scripting, and graphics design guys working on network communications would do more harm than good ?
Who'd'a thunk it ? 
1|2|3|4|5. |
Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:39:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tarminic
Remember that staff can't be assigned to work on areas where they'd do more harm than good.
Whaaaat, you mean, database engineers working on mission scripting, and graphics design guys working on network communications would do more harm than good ?
Who'd'a thunk it ?
I don't know, Database Engineers working with the mission scripting to help limit where the agent sends missioners (away from congested systems) may be a viable use of resources...
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:43:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Tarminic on 05/02/2008 19:43:49
Originally by: Hamfast
I don't know, Database Engineers working with the mission scripting to help limit where the agent sends missioners (away from congested systems) may be a viable use of resources...
That would be the job of the programmers who are familiar with the mission scripting tools and code. Who may or may not be the same person as the database engineer.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:28:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Tarminic
Edited by: Tarminic on 05/02/2008 19:43:49
Originally by: Hamfast
I don't know, Database Engineers working with the mission scripting to help limit where the agent sends missioners (away from congested systems) may be a viable use of resources...
That would be the job of the programmers who are familiar with the mission scripting tools and code. Who may or may not be the same person as the database engineer.
This would depend on the scripting process, if the script is going to the Database to get a system/station within x jumps, help from a database guy may be of use, perhaps to adjust the database to return only a subset of all those available... on the other hand if the scripting tool finds the station/system by some other means, then you are correct and the Database Guys would only be good for beer runs.
--------*****--------
It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
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TypoNinja
Caldari
Void Angels
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:30:00 -
[124]
A Dev previously mentioned that the database was over a Terrabyte, thats to be blunt a freaking huge DB no matter how you slice it. Thats got to be having some effect on game play even if its not the major problem.
All you have to do is fly through a congested area and watch 'ajhaj' jjskljghe' 'jshgihsi' and jglsjie' Spamming up local with offers to sell you isk. Its quite obvious those are trial accounts who are never going to get used again once their two weeks are up.
On a more practical solution, the system requirements to run eve are in fact quite low in my opinion. We might want to consider delegating more of the games 'work' to client side. Less burden on the servers and more on the users computer.
While this might stop people from running their alts at the same time under the same computer, I think it a worthy trade off if it gives us a decent preformance boost.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:34:00 -
[125]
Originally by: TypoNinja
On a more practical solution, the system requirements to run eve are in fact quite low in my opinion. We might want to consider delegating more of the games 'work' to client side. Less burden on the servers and more on the users computer.
It would be nice, but it would open up the client to hacking. Verifying all the client's data on the server would cause just as much lag.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:41:00 -
[126]
TypoNinja, seriously, stop posting.
The more you post, the more obvious it becomes you don't have the first clue about how to design or even maintain a MMO.
First off, the "database size" issue, which we pretty much covered already, yet you kind of still insist on it, mentioning the ISK sales spammers disposable trial alts.
No, they DON'T slow down EVE, one single extra player logging into EVE has a lot more influence on the overall performance as all those INACTIVE database fields describing disposable trial alts.
Also, you can NOT "delegate" even the simplest thing to the client's computer.
The EVE client is nothing more than a "dumb terminal" to interface with the EVE cluster.
Everything that's going on HAS to "go on" on the server exclusively, and the client should merely display a COPY of what's on the server, NEVER "help compute" anything.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Lo3d3R
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:31:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Lo3d3R on 05/02/2008 23:35:32
Originally by: Shamen
My post was not meant to get your back-up. I'm just saying as a CCP rep you need to have slightly more tact than "well my superiors don't care so i don't".
Let the man speak his mind, ... have you ever played a game with dev's that don't dare to post anything or are prohibited from doing so? Any idea how frustrating that is?
Good community interfacing of the EVE-Online crew is one of the many reasons i play this game, it seperates them.
If you dont like the way answers are beeing given, don't ask the questions or mix yourself in the discussion imho.
0/
___________________
Eating Chopped Bear:  |
Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:15:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Lo3d3R
Good community interfacing of the EVE-Online crew is one of the many reasons i play this game, it seperates them.
Good community interfacing was having devs etc. on IRC ... Sadly, EVE is way past this stage, now it's more about handling (valid) complaints and making promises on the forums. There are way too many (vocal) players now to keep past standards ...
Having Lord British in the general chat on TR, that is good community interfacing these days... :-/
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Lo3d3R
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:48:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Lo3d3R on 06/02/2008 11:49:40
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Lo3d3R
Good community interfacing of the EVE-Online crew is one of the many reasons i play this game, it seperates them.
Good community interfacing was having devs etc. on IRC ... Sadly, EVE is way past this stage, now it's more about handling (valid) complaints and making promises on the forums. There are way too many (vocal) players now to keep past standards ...
Having Lord British in the general chat on TR, that is good community interfacing these days... :-/
Your conversational needs can sureley be satisfied by participating on these forums.
There is no chance that you will ever have a 1 on 1 direct link with them, its just not possible in simple terms of time and money.
You could always petition it...  
edit: btw your sig made me do a  boohoo ...
___________________
Eating Chopped Bear: |
Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:57:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Lo3d3R
Your conversational needs can sureley be satisfied by participating on these forums.
The forums are there just for communicating with other players (and perhaps for announcements).
Quote:
There is no chance that you will ever have a 1 on 1 direct link with them, its just not possible in simple terms of time and money.
Oh, lots of people had direct conversations with CCP people, but nowdays there isn't much point, since only massive threadnaughts (like the one about Carrier nerfs) can change CCP's opinions...
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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