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I'm Spying
Dead-i
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Posted - 2008.02.06 18:43:00 -
[1]
Ok...
Im stuck in my decision in selecting a Navy Raven or a Golem for mission running. Its been a few years since I've done lvl 4 missions.. the last time i did a lvl4 was before the torp changes when u can use just 3 torps to kill a frigate, and only needed bs lvl 3 and torp lvl 3.
Anyways, The char that i will be using for it, has 9.5mill sp in missiles, with cruise/torp spec lvl4. Also has 5mill in electronics/engineering and 13mill in gunnery. I have caldari/gallante bs lvl5... basically, i have a strong shield/armor tank and good missile/hybrid weaponry skills (60mill sp pvp char)..
From my understanding.. a Golem has 8 "Effective" missile turrents, which technically should out dps a torp navy raven. The tank i need isnt something thats really important, since i will be having someone with logistics, but i still prefer something that can give me the most dps, without sacrificing tank, kinda like a normal "mission running raven."
atm, im leaning towards a Navy Raven because i read in a few posts that the cnr has better DPS+tank, I also plan on fitting some missile rigs, like Warhead Calefaction Catalyst and Warhead Flare Catalyst.
discuss.
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MalVortex
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Posted - 2008.02.06 18:52:00 -
[2]
CNR has higher theoretical DPS with its ROF bonus. Golem has higher alpha strike with its damage bonus. You don't use torps for missions anymore, its all about the cruise missiles.
So, your choices come down to slightly higher overall DPS with the CNR, or a higher alpha-strike from the golem. The advantage the alpha strike provides is the ability to potentially 1-shot cruisers and some BCs, where the CNR might have overkill on those targets.
In the end, I don't think you can really theorycraft which one will be "better". Pick one and see how you like it, sell it and try the other later on if you like. Both will do very well.
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Cassandra Beckinsale
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:00:00 -
[3]
Golem is better than CNR under any circumstances, for PvP and for Pve.
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I'm Spying
Dead-i
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:04:00 -
[4]
thanks for the input MalVortex, didnt think of cruise missiles as being a viable weapons platform for missions.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:04:00 -
[5]
Edited by: goodby4u on 06/02/2008 19:05:15
 Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale
Golem is better than CNR under any circumstances, for PvP and for Pve.
PVP?I seriously wouldnt take either,golem is too easy to jam and the cnr doesnt have a niche in pvp...PVE?for missioning the golem has a higher tank and is more usefull if you loot the wrecks however if you just zoom through missions like me go for the cnr,more dps=faster running missions.
This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth |
Cassandra Beckinsale
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 06/02/2008 19:05:15
Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale
Golem is better than CNR under any circumstances, for PvP and for Pve.
PVP?I seriously wouldnt take either,golem is too easy to jam and the cnr doesnt have a niche in pvp...PVE?for missioning the golem has a higher tank and is more usefull if you loot the wrecks however if you just zoom through missions like me go for the cnr,more dps=faster running missions.
How many EW warriors you have encountered in your PvP career? Anyway you can use the additional mid slot, if you truly fear so much EW, for a sensor strength booster.
Regarding damage, I doubt CNR do more "PURE" damage than a golem in PvE, and I let you discover why that alone.
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MalVortex
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:19:00 -
[7]
Oh, I almost forgot. The Golem uses sufficiently less ammunition that using faction cruise missiles may very well become viable. Considerably better dps = faster isk, potentially/hopefully offsetting the cost of those faction cruises. If you find the math works out, a faction cruise golem may be the best bet of all.
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xyeLz
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:21:00 -
[8]
CNR has more base dps as it has a RoF bonus.
However, what one must remember is:
- Golem uses less than half the ammo, thus saving not only space, but very much costs.
Faction ammo can be 10x as expensive as regular ammo and it increases dps quite a bit. Spending say half the ammo means you cut into your profits much less than a CNR would.
- Also there's the looting bonus of course, very important. You tractor at 1.000 m/s instead of 500, and tractor from 40k instead of 20k. You can also fit multiple tractors and salvagers.
And why this is so important.. Well from my experience I've gotten say 5-10m in bounties and often 15-20m in loot. This means I get over half my profit from actually looting, being able to do it much much faster increases profits loads, it really does.
- Capacitor bonus, 32% more cap and a higher cap buffer, nothing a cap rig gives.
- The fact that most ships are smaller than BS or even BC. A 35% bonus on a Target Painter can really make big DPS differences.
- Higher alpha strike, it helps. Killing 80% of a BC when a Golem could do it in one volley saves extra volleys.
- Higher resists, don't forget it. Higher resists on Golem means a better tank is available.
- 35% boost ammount, wheeh.
All in all, a Golem is a really nice ship, no doubt about it. With the extra tank it's worth fitting faction, and the lower ammo usage means faction ammo is viable.
A great end-game ship. CNR is amazing too, but a Golem is imo better. The above post was from a PvE perspective.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:24:00 -
[9]
Quote:
How many EW warriors you have encountered in your PvP career? Anyway you can use the additional mid slot, if you truly fear so much EW, for a sensor strength booster.
Regarding damage, I doubt CNR do more "PURE" damage than a golem in PvE, and I let you discover why that alone.
ECM drones are quite common now and even lights will keep a marauder well jammed.
When speaking on cruise missiles the CNR would most certainly do more damage than the golem in both pve and pvp. However the golem gets 2 things that work well in it's favor, the first is a better capacitor allowing it to fit bay thrusters rather than CCC's and TP's to boost sig radius for torps. Shooting torps to 60km with 2x TP's is a better alternative than cruises on a golem for pve. I would hesitate to bring a golem into pvp because of the horrible sensor strength. A single ECCM mod brings it to the same level of a CNR which can still be easily jammed by a dedicated ECM boat or medium/heavy ECM drones.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Pantaloon McPants
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:27:00 -
[10]
The golem was designed as a one stop pve shop ...
* no problems with fittings
* save ammo
* has nice alpha
* save time by tractoring & salvaging from range on the go!
* huge cargo bay so no goodies get left behind
* nice tank - 7.5% rep bonus per marauder level!
* tasty tank
* its golden (well a goldeny brown)
only down side is the price, a few hundred more then a CNR, but im sure it will pay itself off in the long run.
Im sure the CNR is like .222222222345% quicker but if you also run a salvager alt, you can now get rid of it and turn it into a dps/tank buddy to quicken things along even more.
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I'm Spying
Dead-i
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Posted - 2008.02.06 19:32:00 -
[11]
Interesting view xyeLz, I might actually get a Golem. I never thought about the tractor beam bonus, nor the options of having all those extra hi slots.
Thanks for the input :)
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2008.02.06 20:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MalVortex
You don't use torps for missions anymore, its all about the cruise missiles.
You need to go and buy some clue. Torps still, if not even more so than before, outclass cruise, you just have to use T2 launchers now so you can fit Jav torps for stuff beyond 35ish km, and you cannot permatank. But permatanking is an anachronism anyway tbh, you just lose ISK by doing that. Unless you are running out of Motsu or something, but then you need brain surgery anyway.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Veryez
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Posted - 2008.02.06 20:51:00 -
[13]
Leandro has it right, but torps vs cruise missiles is pretty much a matter of personal choice in missions. Setup correctly a t2 torp golem with an AB to catch the BS's that try to keep range has more than enough tank and gank for any lvl 4 and is a better choice, for me, than a torp CNR. For Cruise missiles the CNR is my ship of choice since it can get higher DPS and tank if fitted w/faction/deadspace gear (and why wouldn't you?). Neither one is significantly better than the other despite what some say. Some missions one will outshine the other by a small amount, but either one just walks through lvl 4's.
My suggestion to you is get a golem and outfit it w/t2 gear. It is fairly cheap and can rip through missions. When you get plenty of cash and get bored then splurge and buy a fully faction/deadspace fitted CNR. Try it for a while and keep the one you like best (or keep both  ). If you chose to sell one you won't really lose much iskies anyway.
Oh and NEVER loot a lvl 4 mission in your mission ship. 
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Goonga Malungaboonga
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Posted - 2008.02.06 21:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Veryez
Oh and NEVER loot a lvl 4 mission in your mission ship.
Just curious, why not?? I understand about looting a can, but how can anyone trick you into looting someone elses wreck??
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.02.07 02:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goonga Malungaboonga
Just curious, why not?? I understand about looting a can, but how can anyone trick you into looting someone elses wreck??
Like everything else in eve, a ship setup to perform one thing well will always beat a ship trying to do many things. A dedicated salvager/looter will carry more tractors and salvagers, have more cargo expanders, have salvage rigs (or cargo expander rigs) have an AB for deadspace looting and a MWD for non-deadspace looting, tons of cap and perform far better/faster than any mission ship. The Hurricane is my favorite for this, but a dedicated looting Marauder would be even better. 
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 05:57:00 -
[16]
Here's a Torp Golem setup:
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Amarr Navy Capacitor Power Relay
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Amarr Navy Cap Recharger
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Hammerhead II x5
Nice thing about this setup that a lot of people really underestimate is that torps need to be hit multiple times by defenders to be blown up and it's very unusual for the same torp to be hit the necessary 3 times. Which is basically a 20% increase in damage from cruises and you can shoot to nearly 60km with the bay thrusters. Tank is a little weak for being a golem with gist fit but it's good enough to handle in lvl4 mission, especially with having 900-1100 DPS depending on your opponents range.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2008.02.07 08:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Veryez
Like everything else in eve, a ship setup to perform one thing well will always beat a ship trying to do many things. A dedicated salvager/looter will carry more tractors and salvagers, have more cargo expanders, have salvage rigs (or cargo expander rigs) have an AB for deadspace looting and a MWD for non-deadspace looting, tons of cap and perform far better/faster than any mission ship. The Hurricane is my favorite for this, but a dedicated looting Marauder would be even better.
QFT! run your missions in a CNR or Rattlesnake, come back and hoover up on a Golem or Kronos, job done in 1/2 the time.
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fugimi
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Posted - 2008.02.07 10:32:00 -
[18]
a Golem for the most parts will make a better lvl 4 mission ship, IF your skills are proper.
by saying better i mean it will be a better profit maker.
the reasons for it are quite simple.
1: the ability to fit a proper T2 Torpedo Setup.
upto 900dps with T2 javelin at 52km range using only 1 missile range rig.
enough to reach all far orbiting ships.
and 1100-1200dps with T2 rage or Faction Torps at the range of 35km.
2: the ability to gather all wrecks to one or several spots.
this will make coming back with a salvage ship and looting/salvaging way more
faster, and eliminate the agility disadvantage of using BC/BS's for loot/salvage.
all this with a stronger tank then a cnr and large cargo bay which can be used for cap boosing among other things.
depending on your skills and preferances there are quite a few viable setups which work well with the golem.
here's a suggestion... or few:
High: 4xT2 siege launchers, 3xtractor beams
Mid: 1xTarget Painter 2xDG Inv Fields 1xShield Boost Amps II
1xGist C,B,A,X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
2x of whatever u think is best for ur ship, style, or mission:
AB.
another TP.
another Hardener or SB amp.
Cap Booster.
Low: 3xDG BCU
1xFaction CPR
Rigs 1xHydraulic Bay Thruster I/II
1xCCC I/II
you can use 2 missile rigs and compensate for cap in the mids instead, if ur range skills r not perfect.
or a dmg rig for, duh.. more dmg, but also a way to compensate for removing a BCU which will enable the option for another CPR or a damage control and allow even more flexible setup customizing.
did u notice how everything fit on a golem ? try fitting all that on a cnr 
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:45:00 -
[19]
How big of an issue is the sensor strength though?
I appreciate that using a Golem in PvP is probably not the best idea, but my understanding is that the Golem has pretty poor sensor strength - therefore a lot more likely to be jammed during missions?
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fugimi
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Durzel
How big of an issue is the sensor strength though?
I appreciate that using a Golem in PvP is probably not the best idea, but my understanding is that the Golem has pretty poor sensor strength - therefore a lot more likely to be jammed during missions?
Afaik npc jamming works differnt from player pvp.
Its based on % and have nothing to do with your sensor strength.
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Bradstone
Team Squirrel
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Durzel
How big of an issue is the sensor strength though?
I appreciate that using a Golem in PvP is probably not the best idea, but my understanding is that the Golem has pretty poor sensor strength - therefore a lot more likely to be jammed during missions?
Not really a problem in pve if like me you have an alt boosting your sensors, get mine from 13 to 93 lol. I use the Kronos but the sensors are round about the same me thinks. But even without boosting, you can still complete missions at least 30% faster then a cnr . Which i tend to use up looting and salvaging, bottom line is the cnr never really paid for itself when i used one, the Kronos and the Golem would within about 5 days to a week depending on how often you mission run.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:15:00 -
[22]
I suppose the only issue then is the cost, as it's still twice the price of a CNR. Is it likely to come down a lot in price over the coming few months? (I guess that's a bit of a crystal ball question)
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Bradstone
Team Squirrel
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Durzel
I suppose the only issue then is the cost, as it's still twice the price of a CNR. Is it likely to come down a lot in price over the coming few months? (I guess that's a bit of a crystal ball question)
These ships pay for themselves, they are the best pve ships i've seen (please donÆt nerf them now i said that )
DonÆt look at the price for it will pay for itself, IÆm sure the price will slowly go down, but of course the laws of supply and demand will be the factor in how much.
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wide
Gallente
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:39:00 -
[24]
My alt flies a Golem and initially i hated it. It cost way more than my CNR and delivered less damage. The tank was good but so is a Drake's.
Marauders 5, faction cruise and overheating certainly make the Golem awesome for missions. However, where it really rocks is in pvp with faction torps and overheating.
The numbers, bonus, benefits and deficits can be debated forever, although from experience the Golem is a very nice piece of kit.
(BTW a crystal set is a very useful bonus) |
Scaramunga Scaramai
Amarr
Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Scaramunga Scaramai on 07/02/2008 13:12:55
I guess it depends entirely on where you are missioning as no one here seems to ever mention the effect of Defender missiles from the Gurista rats. The golem only fires 4 rounds of ammo to reach its 8 effective shots. The defenders the gurista rats can shoot 1 - 2 of these down per volley you shoot. In this situation the CNR is better in every way as it fires 7 missiles instead of 4.
If you mission in caldari space / rat against gurista choose the CNR / rattlesnake / navy mega as they are the daddies.
edited as i am a gimp and can't spell
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Arana Tellen
Gallente
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Scaramunga Scaramai
Edited by: Scaramunga Scaramai on 07/02/2008 13:12:55
I guess it depends entirely on where you are missioning as no one here seems to ever mention the effect of Defender missiles from the Gurista rats. The golem only fires 4 rounds of ammo to reach its 8 effective shots. The defenders the gurista rats can shoot 1 - 2 of these down per volley you shoot. In this situation the CNR is better in every way as it fires 7 missiles instead of 4.
If you mission in caldari space / rat against gurista choose the CNR / rattlesnake / navy mega as they are the daddies.
edited as i am a gimp and can't spell
Ah someone brought this one up. Defenders are chance based per missile so this makes 0% difference.
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Scaramunga Scaramai
Amarr
Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2008.02.07 14:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Ah someone brought this one up. Defenders are chance based per missile so this makes 0% difference.
Are you being serius? a chance based object still has a chance for it to happen even if its as small as 10% mate. It makes a massive differance if the ship you are trying to kill can shoot your missiles down. Even if one get popped out it will remove 1/4 if your effective DPS and it does happen, alot.
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Darkonian
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Posted - 2008.02.07 14:50:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Darkonian on 07/02/2008 14:53:04
Edited by: Darkonian on 07/02/2008 14:51:11
Edited by: Darkonian on 07/02/2008 14:50:27
Originally by: Scaramunga Scaramai
Even if one get popped out it will remove 1/4 if your effective DPS and it does happen, alot.
If two get popped on a 8 missile volley, you will also loose 1/4 of your effective DPS. This is math.
If there is 10% chance to loose a missile, if you fire 100 missiles, 90 will hit the target, if you launch 50 with 100% more damage, 45 will hit, you loose 10% of your dps in any case.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.02.07 15:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Veryez
Originally by: Goonga Malungaboonga
Just curious, why not?? I understand about looting a can, but how can anyone trick you into looting someone elses wreck??
Like everything else in eve, a ship setup to perform one thing well will always beat a ship trying to do many things. A dedicated salvager/looter will carry more tractors and salvagers, have more cargo expanders, have salvage rigs (or cargo expander rigs) have an AB for deadspace looting and a MWD for non-deadspace looting, tons of cap and perform far better/faster than any mission ship. The Hurricane is my favorite for this, but a dedicated looting Marauder would be even better.
Not to nitpick but you CAN salvage while you're doing the mission too, and that being the case the Golem does that job remarkably well. It's the only loot I ever pick up because I'm lazy.
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Tenpun M
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade
Originally by: Veryez
Like everything else in eve, a ship setup to perform one thing well will always beat a ship trying to do many things. A dedicated salvager/looter will carry more tractors and salvagers, have more cargo expanders, have salvage rigs (or cargo expander rigs) have an AB for deadspace looting and a MWD for non-deadspace looting, tons of cap and perform far better/faster than any mission ship. The Hurricane is my favorite for this, but a dedicated looting Marauder would be even better.
QFT! run your missions in a CNR or Rattlesnake, come back and hoover up on a Golem or Kronos, job done in 1/2 the time.
So pls tell what magical items do you both put in the left over high slots that make a tractor fitted marauder gimped? It's so easy to loot as you kill you're wasting your time with a salvage ship imo.
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