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What's the cost of the Coalition vs BoB war?

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Boid Gallente Weirdwood	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:24:00 - [1] It's genuine curiosity more than anything else that has prompted me to post these questions, in full knowledge that posts that are neither from the usual clique nor from members of well known corporations are generally treated with derision and howls of, "Alt spotted!". Well, I'm not an alt, I'm truly neutral in the current war other than profiting from being an empire carebear; The demand for minerals is a wonderful thing. I occasionally browse the killboards of the involved alliances and I find the losses in terms of isk absolutely staggering even on a daily basis, I can barely comprehend the accumulated cost over the course of an entire campaign. Just how damaging are these multi-billion losses on a daily basis to a large corporation? Is it a constant battle to replenish these losses or are they easily absorbed? I can just about understand how the Coalition can manage, with easy access to all of the resources in EVE but even then such losses much surely hurt? How BoB manages to keep going is beyond me, I can only imagine that there are enormous stockpiles of ships and equipment. It's likely that I'm being incredibly naive in assuming these things are even a problem for either the Coalition or BoB and showing my complete lack of large corporation operations. I'm guessing that individual members of a corporation aren't expected to replace their own losses whilst fighting a war? As I said, it's genuine curiosity that raises these questions, I'm fascinated by the logistics that must go into feeding a campaign of this magnitude. I do enjoy reading the (factual, smack-free) battle reports and follow the war with interest. Keep up the good work! P.S. If I had to pick a side then right now it would have to be BoB if for no other reason than I'm British, we always pick the underdog. Yes, realise this wasn't always the case, I'd have been supporting the other side then! What can I say, I'm fickle.
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:26:00 - [2] Edited by: Raem Civrie on 11/02/2008 01:27:14 Have you seen the Delve moons? Lotsa dyspro. ---
Hrin Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:29:00 - [3] The cost? ****ty threads like this one.
Sekhmet Orion Mandatory Suicide Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:33:00 - [4] About 15 euro per month.
Sinsalura id TECH	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:36:00 - [5] No doubt trillions of isk have been spent in this war. ~ id TECH ~ now recruiting
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:39:00 - [6] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/02/2008 01:39:43 Well... So... If we take in account all T2 modules destroyed, ships not insured and insufficiently insured, all server node crashs, all POS destroyed, the mental age of Sirmolle, the deficiencies of CCP, and some conceptual factors. We can state that it is... Really a lot of ISK. _______ 16/20 Dragon : ½ Great Game + 14/20 Revelations : ½ Desyncs... + 11/20 Trinity : ½ BBSOD, Bugs, Desyncs, F*** Nerfs + 10/20 v1.1 : ½ [...] + EXP shield nerf + CCP, you are tiring.
Boid Gallente Weirdwood	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Sky Marshal Really a lot of ISK. Actually I phrased the subject badly. I'm more interested on how the ongoing costs are met rather than the total cost of the war which can presumably only be summed up as a metric f'ing ****load.
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:49:00 - [8] Most of the cost is born by individual pilots, not the alliances themselves. To my knowledge none of the major players have any form of a PVP ship reimbursement scheme going, which makes the actual cost of the wars (to the corporations/alliances) pretty much limited to POSs, fuel for POSs and capitals, and (in some cases) replacing capital losses as well. There are also income concerns, such as fees gained from station use, as well as moon mining income. Delve, in particular, has a number of rare moon minerals, which in total probably yield 10+ billion isk a month easily.
Mr Funkadelic Tenacious Danes Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:02:00 - [9] I would think something like a fantasilion spaceship money or so, give or take alittle. No one can tell :) but moon mining does give alot of isk - one region can bring in with dys/prom moons like 20-25b amonth, atleast with the current price on promethium
Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:05:00 - [10] Well most of the BoB corporations are communist. Everything 1000 pilots produce is quite a lot of isk. Goons have some from of ship program, though it may simply be selling cruisers in bulk. D2 I believe required all their pilots to have two fleet fitted BS's. Unfortunately in the early Titan era that didn't last to long. For isk it depends. Moon mining seems to be the favorite form of passive wealth generation. Some of the older alliances have a large stock of T2 BPOs, which are still profitable if not as profitable as they once were. A fair number of alliances have renters. The bigger alliances can generate isk just on pure mass. Dal Originally by: HEXXX In all seriousness; I think I made a miscalculation originally. . . We either need to fix this or fix our advertising.
Celot GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:25:00 - [11] 51.7% of eve's overall gdp
Svett Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:29:00 - [12] The cost is loads and loads of useless alt threads in COAD.
WraithFire Cassandra's Light	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:29:00 - [13] It is true that this magnitude of war can really hurt on varying degrees. The logistics of bringing in battleships and ammo, through very dangerous routes all the way through the fronts can be a pain. Also, the losses during major fleet battles truly gives a beating in terms of isk. Although the losses can be staggering, it all boils down to the "will" of the major powers in the Great War to stay the course. It maybe true that wiping BoB off the map can yield a more positive outcome in terms of long term planning. So, going through with this campaign regardless of the multi-billion isk losses can still be cheaper than letting BoB live in 0.0. Note that every war is costly. Member corps of alliances involve in this war somehow, even once if not in the near future, felt a squeeze in terms of manpower, isk and ships, but somehow these entities pulled through. One example was when MM was sieging Y-2ANO, and the BoB cynojammer was knocked off; however, BoB came in with more numbers than MM because some of their players were either offline and or maybe some were recuperating from the losses in the initial siege of that system. In that scenario, BoB was able to put another cynojammer in the system and MM players especially the high command was not very happy about that. But a week or two, MM and friends came back and finished off Y-2ANO. A couple of days after Y-2ANO fell, BoB definitely said that they did not want that system anyways, as if it was a run down motel where the bed sheets crawl off the mattress. Come on! Tell me something new for heaven's sake. It is beyond the reason that we [both sides of the conflict] are fighting this war for fighting's sake. The enormous amount of losses in isk and time poured by pilots cannot be explained by such trivial reasons. It has to be something more than that. And this is my two isk for this.
Blinders GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Triest Most of the cost is born by individual pilots, not the alliances themselves. comin' for to carry me hoooooooooome
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:39:00 - [15] By characters named ahiwtfehjow and their low low prices
Muro Deez GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Boid I occasionally browse the killboards of the involved alliances and I find the losses in terms of isk absolutely staggering even on a daily basis, I can barely comprehend the accumulated cost over the course of an entire campaign. Just how damaging are these multi-billion losses on a daily basis to a large corporation? Is it a constant battle to replenish these losses or are they easily absorbed? As said above, most corps don't have reimbursement plans in place, a lot of the cost is borne by the pilots. Speaking for myself, it's not difficult to replace lost ships. Quote: I can just about understand how the Coalition can manage, with easy access to all of the resources in EVE but even then such losses much surely hurt? How BoB manages to keep going is beyond me, I can only imagine that there are enormous stockpiles of ships and equipment. It's likely that I'm being incredibly naive in assuming these things are even a problem for either the Coalition or BoB and showing my complete lack of large corporation operations. I'm guessing that individual members of a corporation aren't expected to replace their own losses whilst fighting a war? Yes, individual pilots replace their own stuff unless there are plans in place for it ie. capital reimbursement or the like. BoB's income has been cut dramatically over the last few months, so I'd say while they may still be breaking even, they're probably dipping into their savings from the last year or two. Quote: As I said, it's genuine curiosity that raises these questions, I'm fascinated by the logistics that must go into feeding a campaign of this magnitude. Here's a good figure for you: isk involved in pos logistics for campaigns like delve are often only 10-20% of an alliance's overall monthly fuel cost. Towers and modules aren't actually that expensive.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:29:00 - [17] How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie RollÖ pop? Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction."
Tido Maliyu Condottieri Industries The Economy	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:34:00 - [18] over nine thousand?
Minyon Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Boid Originally by: Sky Marshal Really a lot of ISK. Actually I phrased the subject badly. I'm more interested on how the ongoing costs are met rather than the total cost of the war which can presumably only be summed up as a metric f'ing ***load. If you consider the extream size of the coalition forces (about 20,000 ? members) the cost to the players isnt that high on average. If the coalition has 20k members on its side, it could be more even if only 1/2 of them are active, not alts or industrialist then you still have an army of about 10k strong. From looking at the BoB killboard it looks like they could be geting about 200 - 300 kills a day or more, on sunday they killed 114 battleships alone . But with so many fighting 300 kills a day just doesnt do any damage to them at all as that works out at about 1 ship lost per player per month 300 kills/10,000 players 30 days = 0.9 ships lost per player If that ship lost was a tech2 and rig fitted battle ship or a t2 ship then it would prbaly cost them about 200m over 30 days thats about 6.7m per day, so to keep up the money needed to buy new ships you would need to kill some rats or run a mission for a couple hours a week. Bob could do this with alts.
Boid Gallente Weirdwood	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:24:00 - [20] A couple of people have now stated that individual pilots are responsible for replacing their own loss; Doesn't this effectively mean that those pilots who put in the most work also get punished the most? A quick check through the BoB killboards will often show the same pilot losing a battle ship several times during a single fleet battle.
Zinrix GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin By characters named ahiwtfehjow and their low low prices I laughed, awesome post.
Zinrix GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Boid A couple of people have now stated that individual pilots are responsible for replacing their own loss; Doesn't this effectively mean that those pilots who put in the most work also get punished the most? A quick check through the BoB killboards will often show the same pilot losing a battle ship several times during a single fleet battle. It would if this were a job and not a game. Part of the enjoyment is the possibility of dying. The risk makes it worth playing. The people who lose the most are generally the people who play the most. Whenever you go into a fleet fight, you have the likelihood of dying, but if you don't PVP and you stay in empire, you don't have any fun.
Tido Maliyu Condottieri Industries The Economy	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Zinrix but if you don't PVP and you stay in empire, you don't have any fun. Unfounded claim. I find mining QUITE entertaining!
Boid Gallente Weirdwood	Posted - 2008.02.11 05:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Zinrix Originally by: Boid A couple of people have now stated that individual pilots are responsible for replacing their own loss; Doesn't this effectively mean that those pilots who put in the most work also get punished the most? A quick check through the BoB killboards will often show the same pilot losing a battle ship several times during a single fleet battle. It would if this were a job and not a game. Part of the enjoyment is the possibility of dying. The risk makes it worth playing. The people who lose the most are generally the people who play the most. Whenever you go into a fleet fight, you have the likelihood of dying, but if you don't PVP and you stay in empire, you don't have any fun. Apologies if I gave the wrong impression, I didn't mean punishment in terms of ruining the game or fun of anyone, I only meant punishment in the context of my post, i.e. fiscally punished. I find it interesting that you say, "it would if it were a job and not a game". Bizarrely enough this is exactly why I haven't got involved with a big corporation in EVE. I spent around 7 years in a hardcore raiding guild in Everquest. I would work for 10 hours a day, get home and then go raid with my guild. It took a long, long time for me to realise it, but it had effectively become a second job for me. Looking back, the memory of it makes me cringe, I will never ever know how my wife put up with it - I'm just thankful she did! The end result of this is that I wont ever put myself in the situation where my schedule in a game isn't strictly on my own terms; It doesn't stop me reading about the what's going on around EVE and wishing I was more involved sometimes though! Anyway, what I was trying to say before I got a little side-tracked is that I wasn't trying to criticise anyone's style of management or play. Everyone should play the game how they want to play it to derive whatever fun they can from it.
Gentle Glide GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 05:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Tido Maliyu Originally by: Zinrix but if you don't PVP and you stay in empire, you don't have any fun. Unfounded claim. I find mining QUITE entertaining! Thanks for sharing!
Eacham Graeme Caldari PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.11 06:03:00 - [26] Edited by: Eacham Graeme on 11/02/2008 06:04:01 I've lost around 650k in ships and mods so far in this particular phase of the war. If I lose the remainder of stockpiled ships, you could probably add in another 1.5B. I've ISK reserves to do that about two more times before I really need to start working for a living again. I'm just one pilot, out of many, who is fighting this war.
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2008.02.11 06:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Eacham Graeme Edited by: Eacham Graeme on 11/02/2008 06:04:01 I've lost around 650k in ships and mods so far in this particular phase of the war. If I lose the remainder of stockpiled ships, you could probably add in another 1.5B. I've ISK reserves to do that about two more times before I really need to start working for a living again. I'm just one pilot, out of many, who is fighting this war. Im guessing you mean 650mil although maybe you've only lost a kestrel who knows
Guardian Angell Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.11 08:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Sinsalura No doubt trillions of isk have been spent in this war. Trillions which could have been used instead to feed the poor starving minmatar children... But this galaxy is a tough one ____________________________ Chance favors the prepared mind.
Pandares Gallente I Love The Kha'ak	Posted - 2008.02.11 09:08:00 - [29] The cost of the war is bogged-down servers on the weekend. _______________________________________________
xRazoRx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.02.11 09:21:00 - [30] There is a joke in every joke.

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