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Zaren Namuras
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:23:00 -
[1]
Hi, im gonna tell the story of how i got scammed by the ccp in what looks to me to be a pure moneymaking scheme.
It started with me buying 5 GTC's some time back via one of the eve-online official supported sites.
I then proceeded selling 4 of these the unsecure way and 1 the secure way, my understanding of the situation was that as long as the GTC's where bought legally i could sell them the secure or unsecure way.
https://secure.eve-online.com/SecSellEtcFaq.aspx
This link will direct you too the only information i was in contact with when i sold my GTC's, nowhere there do you see the word illegal, only that it is done on your own risk when trading outside the secure system.
Which for me meant that if i got scammed in private dealings the CCP wouldnt help me in anyway which was fine by me.
Now the fact is i didnt get scammed or anything in my private dealings, i sold 4 gtc's and collected quite the sum of money, which i used too buy a tech II BS all was well until 1 month later, when one day i logged in and saw that my wallet was at -540 million. I immediatly petitioned and got an answer from one of the GM's that it was illegal to trade in this kinda way and the removal of all my sold money was that consequence.
I swiftly replied and wondered where they got that it was illegal to trade the unsecure way.
They then posted this link
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=480961
This piece of information that states it is clearly illegal is found in the character and timecode baazar a place that i atleast have never been to...
If i had known this form of trade was illegal you think i would have sold them the unsecure way...
The answer is no, ofcourse i wouldnt.
Despite me explaining that i did not know of this information, they refuse to give me my money back, thus making me unable to play the game to my satisfaction since i cant sell or buy stuff dock in 0.0 stations where i have ships.
Their complete unwillingness to cooperate on this matter, more and more convinces me they are merely doing this as an way of generating extra income.
I mean how hard can it be to put up the word illegal followed by an explanation that all money will be lost upon trading in the unsecure fashion, On the faq page of their sell/buy GTC page.
So last words, what do you ppl think of their way of treating a paying customer?
has anyone out there had similar problems or is it just me that fell for this?
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Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:26:00 -
[2]
Let's see... They put that information in the forum dealing with the trading of time codes. That you failed to use this rather obvious source of information prior to engaging in said trade is solely your responsibility.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:28:00 -
[3]
I think just about every legal system I know of has one basic principle:
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:28:00 -
[4]
Linky
Actually it has almost been 6 months since this rule went into effect, and even before that it was discouraged in lieu of CCPs safe method.
A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions |
Visceroth
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:29:00 -
[5]
biggest question would be why sell them the non-secure way? If CCP offers a easy and safe way to do this why wouldn't you use CCP's way?
I'd say you learned a valuable lesson.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:34:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Visceroth
biggest question would be why sell them the non-secure way? If CCP offers a easy and safe way to do this why wouldn't you use CCP's way?
I'd say you learned a valuable lesson.
And asdfgdgs's ISK has been removed from the game.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Siresa Talesi
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:41:00 -
[7]
While I'll agree that the OP's actions were unwise, I have to say that it would help if CCP would bother to update their FAQ's and other information on the website once in a while. Documentation of changes in policy and game mechanics does not appear to be their strong suit.
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari
The Empire Nation
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zaren Namuras
*blah blah blah plead ignorant or tinfoil theory blah blah blah didn't read the rules until too late*
Need to read carefully, there's a reason you see lots of advertising about the SECURE METHOD only 
Whelp, betta get to work so you can make more money for the 4 GTCs you'll need to bail yourself out (gotta love GTC market fluxes)
and I guess if he decides to quit, nobody can have his stuff, not even him 
Another one bites the dust. |
Visceroth
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Siresa Talesi
While I'll agree that the OP's actions were unwise, I have to say that it would help if CCP would bother to update their FAQ's and other information on the website once in a while. Documentation of changes in policy and game mechanics does not appear to be their strong suit.
lol maybe they treat the documentation like they treat newbs in the game. There are no holding hands there are only consequences for the actions you choose:-P
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zaren Namuras
So last words, what do you ppl think of their way of treating a paying customer?
Doesn't matter how much you pay, you are not allowed to break the rules.
You will have a hard time claiming ignornance with regards to this one. This information has been around for months.
You cannot have known what the unsecure GTC trade method was without visiting the same thread where they posted the revisions that have since outlawed that method.
This change was well published. Whining about your problem on the forum will not get you any simpathy. If you want CCP to do anything for you in the case, you would have been better off to approach them privately and hope for the best. Now that you have set yourself up as an example of how this rule is to be enforced, you can expect that it will be followed to the letter.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:50:00 -
[11]
Just because you're ignorant of the rules, it doesn't mean that "CCP scammed you." Regarding the fact that you're a paying customer, we all are and should all be treated equally as such. So no sympathy here.
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Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!) |
Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:51:00 -
[12]
IBTL
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At last the Gallente can finally lay claim to saying... "my DICtor" is bigger than yours.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:52:00 -
[13]
STOP... SELLING... GTC's...
Gawd i wish ccp would just disallow this dubious practice alltogether.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! |
Aprudena Gist
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:54:00 -
[14]
the secure method is the only acceptable method.
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Kehmor
Caldari
PAK
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Posted - 2008.02.14 22:56:00 -
[15]
While I have no real sympathy for you as selling GTC's is a bit silly I will say that CCP need to update all their official sources of information and conduct. Half the time even the GMs don't know the "official" rules.
Violence isn't the answer, it is the question.
The answer is yes. |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: DrAtomic on 14/02/2008 23:04:18
Wow how ignorant some of these replies are.
1). guy decides to sell gtc for isk which is supported by CCP
2a). he follows instructions that are presented by CCP
2b). those instructions read: "What if I trade a code through e-mail, or other sources, and don't get my ISK?
The Secure Time Code Exchange is the only supported method of trading EVE Time Codes for ISK. Any other methods of trading Time Codes are done at your own risk. The EVE Customer Support will not investigate such claims and petitions regarding such trades may be closed."
3). CCP then takes away his isk because they say in a forum post that it's only allowed to use the secure method.
Analyses:
1). no discussion there, take it to CCP if you have something to say about that.
2). he read the warnings and accepted the risk of not receiving the isk and decided to trade outside of the secure system.
3). the website clearly implies it is allowed, if you change procedures then update your documentation.
Conclusion:
CCP should update the documentation and refund him the isk THEN and only THEN implement the secure trade is mandatory rule no other forms of GTC trade are allowed.
The OP has a case.
EDIT: It's unfair to have something on the forums superceed something that is in the documentation/faq about GTC trades on the website; it cannot be expected that every player is aware of the content of all forum posts even if it were just stickies. Because it is fair to assume that one can trade GTC without even touching the forum section for it.
- - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Corporal Clue
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:02:00 -
[17]
Serves you right for buying your way ahead in a game.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:16:00 -
[18]
Edited by: DrAtomic on 14/02/2008 23:18:09
Originally by: Malcanis
I think just about every legal system I know of has one basic principle:
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
What is law here? The official FAQ/documentation on the website that shows it is allowed but not advised to trade non secure OR a sticky forum post by a GM in a place not every GTC seller will look (ie have your customers rdy at forehand such as corpmates), there is a large portion of eve players that never even look at the forums.
Edit: if a government would change a law and fails to update the lawbook but instructs the police to act on it and informs the public though leaflets in the postoffice what would you think a judge would rule? A judge would abide the lawbook as it has the rules of society, leaflets dont make lawbooks.
- - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DrAtomic
EDIT: It's unfair to have something on the forums superceed something that is in the documentation/faq about GTC trades on the website; it cannot be expected that every player is aware of the content of all forum posts even if it were just stickies. Because it is fair to assume that one can trade GTC without even touching the forum section for it.
You mean like how the ToS says: Quote:
You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk.
It says that you can do it at your own risk, but does not state that the risks include summary account ban. The knowledge that that is one of the risks is documented elsewhere.
Same with the GTC notice, it states that you can do so at your own risk, the details of those risks are documented elsewhere in places that are well known to the community in general.
If he had made an inquiry to a trustworthy source as to what the current risks are for using the unsecure trade method he would have been advised of those risks.
His assumption that those risks were less than they actually are, does not place responsiblity for those risks on CCP.
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Kaar
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:25:00 -
[20]
What im looking for here is the killmail where you lost your GTC'd BS...
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Thicky McThick
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:29:00 -
[21]
"It started with me buying 5 GTC's some time back via one of the eve-online official supported sites.
I then proceeded selling 4 of these the unsecure way and 1 the secure way, my understanding of the situation was that as long as the GTC's where bought legally i could sell them the secure or unsecure way."
OP quote.
Oh dear real life caught up with you.
Unsecure, in finacial, gameplaying, judgement, and so many other ways.
But blame someone else why don't you. That is something it sounds like you could be secure in.
Post with your Alt and not your Main,
'cos I don't care about your Name. |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Matalino
You mean like how the ToS says: Quote:
You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk.
It says that you can do it at your own risk, but does not state that the risks include summary account ban.
That says that you may NOT, as in not allowed, as in cant do. Not a single bit of doubt there. Infraction means violation of that rule; so it reads failing to do so is done at your own risk.
Now the GTC FAQ reads: IF you trade unsecure you cannot come to us to whine about not having received ISK.
Very very very different because the use of IF and explanation of the risk involving not receiving isk is done at your own account where as the other clearly states it is NOT allowed to be done and the risk is defined in the header of the Tos "Failure to comply with these regulations can result in the immediate termination of your account and you will forfeit all unused access time to the game. No refunds will be given."
- - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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codex0069
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:40:00 -
[23]
Well I am not sure just how long ago you did your trading but I know at one time not all that long ago player were allowed to trade GTC's however they wished.
The only thing they stated was if a player decided to use a method other than the ofical secure method they would have no recourse if they got scammed. (this goes for the seller and the buyer).
Now also not that long ago I remember that CCP did make changes to the rules and they basically outlawed players selling GTC's through any way except for the secure method, now I am not sure whether they have updated all of their FAQ, guides etc but I know that some still have the old rules on them.
So what can be done by this unfortunate person that has spent his RL $$$ to get some extra ISK through a system he thought was a legal system?
Well personally I don't think there is much he can do short of trying to make enough ISK back to get his wallet back into the positive. How he goes about doing that is something he needs to think about, personally I would be trying to find ways other than going out and spending another heap of $$.
Now at a guess I doubt that CCP will end this sort of trading as it rakes in the $$$ for them, but what they need to do is at least keep FAQ's up to date & any other sort of guide for that matter because when it comes down to it by not keeping them updated they are leaving players open to many many possibilities and a lot of them are not good for the players.
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Thicky McThick
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:41:00 -
[24]
Lets simplify it, just in case my last post was missed.
You chanced your arm and it didn't work.
You tried to play the rules, 5 time cards lol, what did you need them for?
You then went ouside the protected setup, and it bit you in the ass.
You expect any Eve player to give a damn?
More fool you.
Post with your Alt and not your Main,
'cos I don't care about your Name. |
Frug
True Foundation
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:42:00 -
[25]
CCP is at fault for scattering their rules about in an uncoordinated manner and then expecting the OP to go to some forum and find a sticky to figure this out.
This kind of idiocy is why I don't respect CCP. This is not the first and won't be the last time their laziness, carelessness and disorganization costs players time and/or money.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Haurian Commando
Gallente
Cursed Souls
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:46:00 -
[26]
i know the picture tutorial is pre-trinity at the latest, looks pre-RMR to me
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My Mod autograph collection. Mods, please sign here!
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Please transfer the agreed amount to my Swiss bank account - Mitnal |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Thicky McThick
You expect any Eve player to give a damn?
I do because CCP has their GMs police stuff and provide consequences to that affect real life but didnt update their documentation about it. Any honest player can easily make the same mistake the OP did and loose real life money for nothing. I can understand the OP feeling scammed by CCP because in a way he was; at least by Jita standards it would be a dirty contract trick.
- - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Falcon Troy
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:53:00 -
[28]
You didn't use the supported Secure method. Simple as that. Sucks for you.
_____________
Hai. |
Dahak2150
Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.02.14 23:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Frug
This is not the first and won't be the last time their laziness, carelessness and disorganization costs players time and/or money.
And the OP wasn't lazy, careless, or disorganized? If anything, he's lazier as he tried to buy himself isk instead of earning it. Got what he deserved frankly, especially if he was stupid enough to use an insecure transaction method.
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Originally by: "Cyberus"
cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.02.15 00:01:00 -
[30]
As far as CCP's organization goes, well, there is always room for improvement.
Frankly, I don't think they really care what happens to someone they catch trying to exploit what they think is a safe loophole in CCP's documentation.
I'd like to know exactly why the OP chose the unsecure method for most (but not all) of his transactions. You obviously knew there was an approved and safe method... after all, you admitted you used it for one of the transactions.
There really aren't very many reasons you would purposefully chose the unsecure method now are there bunky?
Remember folks, you are only catching one side of this. I'm pretty sure that CCP had good reasons for lowering the boom on this fella.
By the way, CCP taking the procedes of those sales because he irritated them still falls under the perview of "at his own risk". 
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