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VoxDei
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Posted - 2004.04.02 14:42:00 -
[31]
IMO there should be more crystals and hybrid ammo added, allowing laser users to do kinetic and explosive damage and hybrid users to do EM and explosive should they want to (although obviously not all types at once). That would force people to reshuffle the hardeners they use, and go a long way to improving the potential damage of lasers - they are no longer restricted to the types of damage that everyone and their dog defends against. I did note the guy earlier in the thread who said hardening wasn't the cause of the problem, but I can't believe it's not a contributory factor.
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Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.04.02 15:20:00 -
[32]
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
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First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Desdemoniam
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Posted - 2004.04.02 23:35:00 -
[33]
 Quote:
On a PVP note i dont think the Apoc should be able to hold its own with the best PVP ships, every ship needs an area of expertise. Quote:
I can see how this makes sense to you....actually no i cant with the incoming cap relay nerf beams will become usseless however the apoc will become the best armor tank there is, as for currently as is b4 the cap relay nerf the apoc holds its own againts what u so call best PVP ships because it is one of the best, apocs can fit the beams which still do quite a bit of damage in comparison to 425mm rails, and be faster than the rof of the projectiles. Currently with cap relays it makes a great shield tank using 4x tachyons and 4x heavy beams u can run an xl booster for a very long time.
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.04.03 13:18:00 -
[34]
Quote:
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
excellent and 100% correct analysis.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
EvilWezal
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Posted - 2004.04.03 20:50:00 -
[35]
Apoc's need some love and so do Laser's.I'm having to skill for a Scorp to do PvP. It's rediculous since the Amarr's are supposed to be a Very Powerful Race with Very Powerful Ships/Weapons.
Tachs need to be rebalanced. I can only fit 4 on my apoc. and keep them running for about 10 mins. They are worthless in fleetbattles. Amarr ships are supposed to be the Best in game not the worse!
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.04 06:19:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/04/2004 06:21:45
Quote:
The bit about midrange crystals - hybrid users have to do it too. Iron and antimatter both use far more cap.
Actually Antimatter ammo makes the gun use 100% of the guns base cap use. The Iron ammo is a -20% reduction in cap need. So there is not a penalty for using iron ammo, it's a BONUS! The mid range bonus is better of course but that is to be expected, you are risking more at the mid ganges and you aren't dealing max damage. There is no penalty.
I do however agree that lasers need love, since I don't fly the apoc and I don't use lasers so I can't make a good suggestion.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Garrik Shelt
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Posted - 2004.04.04 07:08:00 -
[37]
Uh, you guys are missing something here. While Amaarr ships are supposed to be very powerful, their skill is supposed to be in defense, not in attack. Notice that Amarr ships have the most armor and stucture, so you should you Armor repairers. Those of you trying to use a sheild booster are missing the point of your ships. If you want a super powerful ship that you can load full of weapons, you need to get a Minmatar ship and load it w/ Howittzers or something, cause that's what they are best at. I mean come on, just because your ship has 7 turret hardpoints doesn't mean you are supposed to put 7 tach's on it. Maybe you should put a few midrange weapons on also. Then you can deal w/ a variety of situations.
As for my complaints about lasers, I always thought that they should have the longest range of weapons. I mean, they shoot focused light, which can't lose speed, so how can it not travel long distances. All the other weapons consist of firing a projectile of some sort, which will eventually lose speed and lose effectiveness.
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Those who live by the sword, die by those who don't |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.04.04 15:22:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Arthur Eld on 04/04/2004 15:24:06
Quote:
Uh, you guys are missing something here. While Amaarr ships are supposed to be very powerful, their skill is supposed to be in defense, not in attack. Notice that Amarr ships have the most armor and stucture, so you should you Armor repairers. Those of you trying to use a sheild booster are missing the point of your ships. If you want a super powerful ship that you can load full of weapons, you need to get a Minmatar ship and load it w/ Howittzers or something, cause that's what they are best at. I mean come on, just because your ship has 7 turret hardpoints doesn't mean you are supposed to put 7 tach's on it. Maybe you should put a few midrange weapons on also. Then you can deal w/ a variety of situations.
Try running 4 tachyons and 1 armour repairer for any useful length of time.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:14:00 -
[39]
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:23:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
My point is that amarr cant maintain cap while using 1 armour repairer and using only 4 of its turret slots as opposed to what the poster of the quote suggested.
And, 4 tachyons have no where near the damage potential of a blaster boat, so your point is?
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First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:29:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
My point is that amarr cant maintain cap while using 1 armour repairer and using only 4 of its turret slots as opposed to what the poster of the quote suggested.
And, 4 tachyons have no where near the damage potential of a blaster boat, so your point is?
ehm yeah and tachyons don't need a mwd and suicidal range. Just curious about one thing, why can I do it, and you can't?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Shirei
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:37:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Shirei on 04/04/2004 19:39:20
Because the cap use gives you no advantage with tachs.
With neutron blasters, it gives you the highest DoT gun in the game... On the other hand, instead of using those 4 tachs, you could just use 6 425mm railguns (for the same powergrid) and have.... better total damage, very much better damage against armor, better range and less cap drain. And you won't even get CPU problems, if you tank armor. The only two disadvantages you get are that 425mms use ammo (which isn't that bad) and that you are using 2 more high slots (but that isn't too bad either, considering that you can't use those high slots for anything terribly useful for long range anyway, if you already have 4 tachs fitted - maybe 2 smartbombs for missile defense or 2 heavy beams for short-medium range... and 4 tachs + 2 heavy beams still give less damage than 6 425mms and have less average range).
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Perforator
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:42:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
Assuming Controlled Bursts level 4 and Battleship level 4, 4 tachyons require more cap to run than 8 neutron blasters, so get your facts straight.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:46:00 -
[44]
Then don't use 4 tachyons FFS, whats with the I wanna use the biggest gun but I can't make it work the game is broken thing amarrians suffer from, if I can't make neutrons work I don't use them I use Ions if I can't make those work I use dual IONs. And newsflash the best blasterthron setups use IONs and dual IONs, and their pilots don't go around making 20 threads on how the game sucks cause we can't use all Neutron setups.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Shirei
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Posted - 2004.04.04 19:55:00 -
[45]
If megabeams were much better, noone would be complaining I think. But currently the most effective long-range choice for an Apoc seem to be 425mm rails, which is a bit strange for an Amarr ship, lasers being their preferred weapon and all.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.04 20:16:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
Assuming Controlled Bursts level 4 and Battleship level 4, 4 tachyons require more cap to run than 8 neutron blasters, so get your facts straight.
My apologies was going on the cap usage of my blasters, and I got pretty decent skills that up the cap usage of my blasters by quite a bit and compared that to the number I remembered from another post somewhere about tachyons but apparently that person had crap skills. Taking base stats and just those 2 skills at lvl 4:
Tachyon 125*.8*.8/12.5=6.4cap/sec
Neutron cannon: 30*.8/7.875=3.04cap/sec
But then again a apoc doesn't have to deal with the 60cap/sec drain of a mwd.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.04.05 05:20:00 -
[47]
ummm every argument so far has been - i want to improve the Apoc cuz i want it to be the best ship ever cuz i fly one. (especialy goes for Evil Wizard). If you want damage, go for damage.(4+tachs...) If you want defense, go for defense (armor hardening in lows) and sacrifice the firepower. Or go for something in the middle. In each extreeme, Apoc is on par with other ships. It can't be both - its extreems are too powerful to do both. AND its the best mining ship as well... AND a realy good NPC farmer...wtf are you whining about??? the fact that there is no IDDQD IDKFA ship is called "balance", u know the thing that makes games fun?...
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Raknor
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Posted - 2004.04.05 07:27:00 -
[48]
Quote:
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
Bingo. The Amar ships need to have there Bonuses looked at. Ship bonuses should be about making a type of weapon most effective on that ship. Maby increasing that 5% reduction in laser cap use increased to 10% would be the first place to look. This would give near the 30% decrease in cap use that people are asking for without moving the bonus to all races.
May your gunĘs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it. |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 08:22:00 -
[49]
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.04.05 08:29:00 -
[50]
Quote:
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
If the guns are balanced, please explain why you seldom see lasers on non-Amarr ships, but you see all sorts of weaponry on Amarr ships.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 08:51:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Quote:
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
If the guns are balanced, please explain why you seldom see lasers on non-Amarr ships, but you see all sorts of weaponry on Amarr ships.
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
qrac
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:08:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
now tell me how to equip my apoc with lasers and be able to take your megathron out.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
qrac
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:14:00 -
[53]
Edited by: qrac on 05/04/2004 10:15:56
Quote:
The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails.
since guns are actually balanced we can take away all ship bonuses for guns. 
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:24:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Edited by: qrac on 05/04/2004 10:15:56
Quote:
The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails.
since guns are actually balanced we can take away all ship bonuses for guns.
If all ships had the exact same grid etc. etc. why not. Would make the game terrible boring though.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:31:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Quote:
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
now tell me how to equip my apoc with lasers and be able to take your megathron out.
There are apoc setups that can deal with a blasterthron even when using lasers. And as soon as I share my blasterthron setup I'll share the apoc setups I mean, atm it's post-Shiva but that might change.  
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:37:00 -
[56]
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:43:00 -
[57]
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:59:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
That depends on what advantages your looking for. And again why does the fact that you can't make lasers work for you, like you want them to, mean there is something wrong with lasers?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
qrac
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:38:00 -
[59]
gariuys, you're missing the point. there is no point in using lasers on most amarr ships.
take the apocalypse for example. why fit lasers when hybrids are better for both long and close range? this makes the apocalypse and a lot of other amarr ships waste a valuable ship bonus.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:39:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
That depends on what advantages your looking for. And again why does the fact that you can't make lasers work for you, like you want them to, mean there is something wrong with lasers?
What depends on what advantages im looking for? And what part do you play in determining the balance of this game? 
Im not looking for advantages. When no one, including Amarr, are using lasers, there is a balance problem. It's apparent that you don't get around lasers much. Let the people who are familiar with them make useful contributions to this discussion.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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