| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
zaqq
   |
Posted - 2004.04.01 11:26:00 -
[1]
am a little peeved at the power imbalance ingame towards the amarr race as opposed to all other races, i-e, the sheer amount of power needed to operate tachs when in battle, or any laser fer that matter. after nerfing their damage ability, now we have to suffer crystal penalties too, too take 1 shot needs a lot of power, whereas another race needs very little so can concentrate on using more shields etc and fight for much longer periods, don't gimme that need more skills crap, why as an amarr is it more advantagious to me to fit 425 rails fer fk sakes, i shouldn't have to, pls get it sorted.
|
dalman
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 11:39:00 -
[2]
Edited by: dalman on 01/04/2004 11:40:49
Can you tell us WTF you mean with "crystal penalties"???
And, you're wrong.
Named lasers combined with "mid range crystals" gives you alot of firepower, good range and quite little cap usage.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Brian Detaah
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 11:46:00 -
[3]
As a amarr-shiptype pilot, I feel sympathy with your sentiment. Yes, the apoc is not wholly up to par with the tempest when it comes to pvp (using the same boring settings). I think i could be fixed by lowering the cap (by about 20%) (or upping, better, the dmg)and changing the pocs cap reduction laser bonus to something better (ROF or DMG). That would make the apoc a mean dmg dealer and it would still suffer the same problems with cap (which i think is very fair) as the lowered cap-use of lasers cancels out with the laser cap-use bonus. Oh, and fix that tach :)
Could be argued that since the apoc and the lasers are so good at NPC fighting (debatable, ammo isnt that expensive) and mining, they should be handicapped in pvp... Think that is a bit wrong, but my post is already to long. 
PS: This is a very one-sided view ei. from a BS pilot, dont fly amarr cruisers (basicly useless for combat) or frigs (cant say no to those caldari) so i have little competence there.
------------------------------------------------
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'
|
zaqq
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 12:03:00 -
[4]
so educate me then dalman, how would you fit an apoc ? since the pkers i was fighting last night kept me at 76km range, with no mwd because of penalties AGAIN, i could not get near the sonna*****, (scorps)
|
fras
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 12:14:00 -
[5]
After training amarr ships lots on Chaos and trying them out there's no doubt in my mind that an apoc with 425's is better than an apoc with megabeams/tachyons which sucks when it's your race weapon.
Mid range cap saving ammo and named guns all applies to hybrids aswell that's not really an answer.
Damage is fine, cap usage needs to be dropped though. Something around 30% - 40% greater than 425 cap usage would be about right imo. At the moment it's more like 3x greater.
|
MSDborris
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 12:17:00 -
[6]
can i just ask what is everyons skills when u test these gunz?
coz my ceo use's tach on hes apoc and he does some really good hits and the next in command does good hits in hes mega with 425 rail.
And im one of 6 ppl in my corp with no bs. ( other 5 just joined )
*****
" MSDborris, " Baka!, Hentia! "
***** |
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 13:08:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
After training amarr ships lots on Chaos and trying them out there's no doubt in my mind that an apoc with 425's is better than an apoc with megabeams/tachyons which sucks when it's your race weapon.
Mid range cap saving ammo and named guns all applies to hybrids aswell that's not really an answer.
Damage is fine, cap usage needs to be dropped though. Something around 30% - 40% greater than 425 cap usage would be about right imo. At the moment it's more like 3x greater.
My suggestion would be to drop laser cap usage by 30% across the board, as you see all sorts of weapons on Amarr ships, but rarely more than one or two lasers on non-Amarr ships, which implies that something is wrong with energy weapons.
I often use a Maller for combat against NPCs, but fit it with 250mm rails rather than heavy beams. Now people say that lasers are really good against NPCs because you don't have to worry about ammo etc, but the simple fact is, that using lasers you cannot fire your guns for a sustained perion of time (I've all relevant skills at 4/5 btw).
I'd also change the cap usage bonus on the various Amarr ships to either 5% energy weapon optimal range per level or, in the case of the Apoc, to 5% large energy weapon damage per level.
I believe that this would put the Apoc back onto an equal footing with the Tempest and Megathron, and genuinely encourage laser use on the other ships.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Ashantee
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 14:22:00 -
[8]
Quote:
as you see all sorts of weapons on Amarr ships, but rarely more than one or two lasers on non-Amarr ships, which implies that something is wrong with energy weapons.
I don't fly amarr ships at all (though i do want to get in a punisher some time soon) but i have to say, this is a good point. i have tried blasters, rails and proj but i've never even bothered to pick up laser weapon skills. this could just be cause i'm lazy, but the just don't seem as appealing as proj weapons.
I can't say much about the subject, but restate that yes, i have heard of amarr ships with all kinds of weapons, but i rarely hear of other race ships with laser weapons. Good point.
|
John McCreedy
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 15:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: John McCreedy on 01/04/2004 15:37:45
Quote:
so educate me then dalman, how would you fit an apoc ? since the pkers i was fighting last night kept me at 76km range, with no mwd because of penalties AGAIN, i could not get near the sonna*****, (scorps)
Zaqq, you ever heard of the expression "More flies with honey"?
Make a difference
|
Devestator
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:18:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Devestator on 01/04/2004 18:24:53
Tacyons used to suck my cap dry 3 months ago. Now i have no problems with cap issues while firing guns. All you need is 4 skills and cap-relays.
Amarr BS 4
Energy System ops 5
Energy Management 4
Controlled Burst 4
THis gives an apoc a Capacitor of 6912 and a Base Rechare rate of 692. Bring that recharge rate down to 200 and you can run a XL-Shield Booster forever and that's 400 cap every 4 seconds. I know, i have done it. Guns cap use are only a drop in the bucket compared to the xl-shield booster.
The Apoc is a power ship!! Not a huge dmg dealer but it can take a ton of punishement while dishing out good DMG. Here is a Secret: Buy a Tracking COmputer. Then come back here and complain your not doing good dmg. I regularly get shots in the 200's with every hit when i have the 4 tachyons going (Tracking COmp is Key). And thats every 8.47 seconds or something like that. SO its a possilblity of 400 DMG from one gun every 16 seconds. Lets not forget about the Perfect shots you get for 500 every once in while too.
Laser are Fine IMO.
|
Lord Azraiel
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:19:00 -
[11]
That is a good point the no lasers on other ships. What I think should be done, is a 20% recuction in cap on lasers. Tach goes down to 100cap, with max skills goes down to 50 cap, and with standard (no) crystal, goes again down to 25 cap per shot. So, with Controlled burst 5, and amarr battle ship 5, you will have 50 cap per shot, which i think is fairly good. most people have 4 tachyons, so thats what, 100-200 cap per volley, which is substantially less than now.
"I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!" |
Majin Buu
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:30:00 -
[12]
i have large energy lvl 5, but only large hybrid lvl 4 and the hybrids easily outdamage megabeams/tachs. This isnt beacuse everyone is going around with em/therm hardeners, its been tested against a shield tanked scorp(1 of each hardener, XL booster+amp). My apoc didnt even manage to take down the shields when using tachs without running out of cap, with the megabeams only just getting into armor. The Hybrid 425's wasted the scorp using only half my cap .
The scorp didnt run out of cap, it just couldnt shield recharge fast enough cause the 425's were doing so much damage.
Ive also heard of people fitting 1400's to apocs now and doing even more damage than the hybrids were doing
This is all off chaos btw(with the new cap relay nerf)
BoB KillBoard |
Majin Buu
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:32:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Edited by: Devestator on 01/04/2004 18:24:53
Tacyons used to suck my cap dry 3 months ago. Now i have no problems with cap issues while firing guns. All you need is 4 skills and cap-relays.
Amarr BS 4
Energy System ops 5
Energy Management 4
Controlled Burst 4
THis gives an apoc a Capacitor of 6912 and a Base Rechare rate of 692. Bring that recharge rate down to 200 and you can run a XL-Shield Booster forever and that's 400 cap every 4 seconds. I know, i have done it. Guns cap use are only a drop in the bucket compared to the xl-shield booster.
The Apoc is a power ship!! Not a huge dmg dealer but it can take a ton of punishement while dishing out good DMG. Here is a Secret: Buy a Tracking COmputer. Then come back here and complain your not doing good dmg. I regularly get shots in the 200's with every hit when i have the 4 tachyons going (Tracking COmp is Key). And thats every 8.47 seconds or something like that. SO its a possilblity of 400 DMG from one gun every 16 seconds. Lets not forget about the Perfect shots you get for 500 every once in while too.
Laser are Fine IMO.
I would REALLY like to see you get your cap recharge anywhere near 200 after the next patch.
BoB KillBoard |
Shirei
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:37:00 -
[14]
Quote:
I would REALLY like to see you get your cap recharge anywhere near 200 after the next patch.
How about 3-4 mid slot cap rechargers + 2-3 cap relays, which leaves enough space for 2 L armor repairers and 2-3 armor hardeners.
|
zaqq
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 18:38:00 -
[15]
glad to see i'm not talkin outa my rear end, there IS an imbalance, thnx ppl fer your input, more suggestions is most welcome. i have large 3 atm lvl 4 on saturday, mostly lvl 3 across the board with gunnery skills, lvl 3 bs atm.
|
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 23:02:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Quote:
I would REALLY like to see you get your cap recharge anywhere near 200 after the next patch.
How about 3-4 mid slot cap rechargers + 2-3 cap relays, which leaves enough space for 2 L armor repairers and 2-3 armor hardeners.
u wont be able to fit even 6 megabeams with that setup.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Nerhtal Al'Thali
|
Posted - 2004.04.01 23:34:00 -
[17]
If it wasnt for 425's being so powerfull at the moment i dont have a clue why youre all arguing this?
Proj use no cap yet they have a low tracking and high rof due to it
Lasers are high cap use - no ammo requirement - near instant crystal change. Good ROF
Ive never really used hybrids since all the millions of patches so i am going to refrain from commenting on them
The only thing i can think of is that Tachs need a tiny tiny boost as they are supposed to be a Super-Laser, like the Howitzer is the super Proj. Hybrids dont have a class as such i believe??
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Parallax Error
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 00:17:00 -
[18]
Drop the capacitor useage of lasers by atleast third, so they still use the most cap but aren't so far out from the rest of the guns.
Add a 10 second reloading timer for swapping crystals.
Drop the fitting requirements for tachyon beams by 500 powergrid down to 3750.
Cut the CPU useage for all lasers down to comparable with projectiles. Amarr ships have the lowest CPU but highest powergrid, so the racial guns of choice have the highest powergrid and aren't the lowest CPU by a margin?? Eh?
Remove the cap useage bonuses from Amarr ships for lasers and give them something else like a DoT boost.
Disclaimer: most of these comments apply more to large lasers than other lasers. the small range of weapons is pretty much ok imho.
|
Punto
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 00:26:00 -
[19]
Quote:
If it wasnt for 425's being so powerfull at the moment i dont have a clue why youre all arguing this?
Proj use no cap yet they have a low tracking and high rof due to it
Lasers are high cap use - no ammo requirement - near instant crystal change. Good ROF
Ive never really used hybrids since all the millions of patches so i am going to refrain from commenting on them
The only thing i can think of is that Tachs need a tiny tiny boost as they are supposed to be a Super-Laser, like the Howitzer is the super Proj. Hybrids dont have a class as such i believe??
Well...once again you speak and haven't thought it out. Yeah, projectiles have long ROF and low tracking... Now put them on the tempest and not only do they have average tracking, but they have AWESOME damage and average ROF. If they would do the same to lasers on the APOC, that would solve the problem even though lasers eat up all your cap. But Amarr captains sure wouldn't complain!
Lasers suck right now...there are a million threads about it. Only until the Devs put 2 and 2 together will something happen.
Oh...and for the guy who thinks that he can run an XL booster with 6900 cap at 200 recharge is a moron.
Lets say you have 7000 cap with a 200 recharge... that is 7000 / 200 = 35 cap a second on average. So in 4 seconds you would receive 140 cap. Yeah...you run your XL Booster and lasers and lets see if your cap will last longer than 20-30 seconds! 1 tach alone uses a base 120 cap a shot! With good skills you can get it down around 90 base. Other than that the only way to bring it lower is to use mid range crystals which of course sucks because the other races don't have to do this in order to keep their guns firing!
So you will be a sitting duck at 55+ km away unless you want to use up the majority of your cap.
So...Apoc users out there...train your laser skills up to NPC hunt with but train up your projectile / Hybrid skills if you want to PVP. Its just that simple. I have all 4 and 5 skills to test this with and hybrids rock lasers big time. Put 425's on apoc and you will say WTF. Big difference in damage.
Now put them on a Megathron and you will be even more impressed with the Megathrons ship bonuses applied!
Projectiles fit easier on the apoc but their base stats suck without the tempest's bonuses. With proper mods and enough of them on your ship, you will do much more damage than lasers, have the ability to do other types of damage, and have cap to spend on defence.
Something needs to change. 
|
Devestator
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 01:05:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Oh...and for the guy who thinks that he can run an XL booster with 6900 cap at 200 recharge is a moron.
Lets say you have 7000 cap with a 200 recharge... that is 7000 / 200 = 35 cap a second on average. So in 4 seconds you would receive 140 cap. Yeah...you run your XL Booster and lasers and lets see if your cap will last longer than 20-30 seconds! 1 tach alone uses a base 120 cap a shot! With good skills you can get it down around 90 base. Other than that the only way to bring it lower is to use mid range crystals which of course sucks because the other races don't have to do this in order to keep their guns firing!
I really hate people who post about Apocs and never has flown one, let alone ones that don't know about basic game mechanics.
Hey Idiot, your capacitor recharges using a Bell curve. Of course meaning you get a very low recharge rate 0-5% and 95-100% but you get double even triple the cap at 50%. So yes, i can run not only the xl-shield boost but also 4 tachyons and 2 shield hardeners (Takes 7 cap-relays to do it at 145 recharge-rate) but i can do it. All Expirenced apoc flyers out there with the skills i posted can do the same thing.
SO next time test something before you flame, you noob troll.
|
Aronis Contar
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 02:48:00 -
[21]
I quite like my lasers the way they are at the moment 
The only thing I'd like to see is a small damage multiplier increase (5% maybe?), and slightly loner range for a tachyon beam over a mega beam.
Ciao, Aronis!
|
Majin Buu
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 05:32:00 -
[22]
well tachs were meant to be a unique gun  , the only thing i see thats unique about them is there ability to kill your cap in 10-15 secs
BoB KillBoard |
Brian Detaah
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 07:31:00 -
[23]
I really hate people who post about Apocs and never has flown one, let alone ones that don't know about basic game mechanics.
Hey Idiot, your capacitor recharges using a Bell curve. Of course meaning you get a very low recharge rate 0-5% and 95-100% but you get double even triple the cap at 50%. So yes, i can run not only the xl-shield boost but also 4 tachyons and 2 shield hardeners (Takes 7 cap-relays to do it at 145 recharge-rate) but i can do it. All Expirenced apoc flyers out there with the skills i posted can do the same thing.
SO next time test something before you flame, you noob troll.
True, I can almost run an xl indefinantly. Lasers still suck though as you do need really good skill to just be able to use them without running out of cap. And the question is if all that training is worth what you get?
------------------------------------------------
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'
|
Kinnison
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 07:42:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Quote:
If it wasnt for 425's being so powerfull at the moment i dont have a clue why youre all arguing this?
Proj use no cap yet they have a low tracking and high rof due to it
Lasers are high cap use - no ammo requirement - near instant crystal change. Good ROF
Ive never really used hybrids since all the millions of patches so i am going to refrain from commenting on them
The only thing i can think of is that Tachs need a tiny tiny boost as they are supposed to be a Super-Laser, like the Howitzer is the super Proj. Hybrids dont have a class as such i believe??
Well...once again you speak and haven't thought it out. Yeah, projectiles have long ROF and low tracking... Now put them on the tempest and not only do they have average tracking, but they have AWESOME damage and average ROF. If they would do the same to lasers on the APOC, that would solve the problem even though lasers eat up all your cap. But Amarr captains sure wouldn't complain!
Lasers suck right now...there are a million threads about it. Only until the Devs put 2 and 2 together will something happen.
Oh...and for the guy who thinks that he can run an XL booster with 6900 cap at 200 recharge is a moron.
Lets say you have 7000 cap with a 200 recharge... that is 7000 / 200 = 35 cap a second on average. So in 4 seconds you would receive 140 cap. Yeah...you run your XL Booster and lasers and lets see if your cap will last longer than 20-30 seconds! 1 tach alone uses a base 120 cap a shot! With good skills you can get it down around 90 base. Other than that the only way to bring it lower is to use mid range crystals which of course sucks because the other races don't have to do this in order to keep their guns firing!
So you will be a sitting duck at 55+ km away unless you want to use up the majority of your cap.
So...Apoc users out there...train your laser skills up to NPC hunt with but train up your projectile / Hybrid skills if you want to PVP. Its just that simple. I have all 4 and 5 skills to test this with and hybrids rock lasers big time. Put 425's on apoc and you will say WTF. Big difference in damage.
Now put them on a Megathron and you will be even more impressed with the Megathrons ship bonuses applied!
Projectiles fit easier on the apoc but their base stats suck without the tempest's bonuses. With proper mods and enough of them on your ship, you will do much more damage than lasers, have the ability to do other types of damage, and have cap to spend on defence.
Something needs to change.
The bit about midrange crystals - hybrid users have to do it too. Iron and antimatter both use far more cap.
|
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 07:52:00 -
[25]
for the "experts" saying lasers are ok:
do u know an apoc setup with lasers that'd beat a tempest or a megathron. cap relays aren't allowed (unless using armour to tank) since they're getting hit by the nerf bat.
the pilots will have lvl 5 in all relevant skills.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Majin Buu
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 08:48:00 -
[26]
Quote:
I really hate people who post about Apocs and never has flown one, let alone ones that don't know about basic game mechanics.
Hey Idiot, your capacitor recharges using a Bell curve. Of course meaning you get a very low recharge rate 0-5% and 95-100% but you get double even triple the cap at 50%. So yes, i can run not only the xl-shield boost but also 4 tachyons and 2 shield hardeners (Takes 7 cap-relays to do it at 145 recharge-rate) but i can do it. All Expirenced apoc flyers out there with the skills i posted can do the same thing.
SO next time test something before you flame, you noob troll.
True, I can almost run an xl indefinantly. Lasers still suck though as you do need really good skill to just be able to use them without running out of cap. And the question is if all that training is worth what you get?
i have always flown an apoc, i was one of the first in my corp to dump tachs in favor of megabeams, i have also been on chaos and i can tell u now that your setup will be impossible after the next patch. IF u did manage it then u would be fitting so many cap relays/rechargers that u wouldnt have room for ANY defence. I can also tell you that fitting 425's or 1400's to your apoc will still do more damage for alot less cap than tachs/megabeams, even 425's on an apoc will outdamage a mega because of the amount of 425's u can fit
BoB KillBoard |
Quenthos Darksin
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 11:32:00 -
[27]
I use an apoc and this is how i see it, sorry if this is slightly off topic, i just wanted to ad my view.
Not seeing lasers on none amarr ships is how it should be, they demand a huge amount of power and as such lasers should only be usable by amarr ships as they are the only ones with enough power to actually make use of them.
maybe lasers do need a little love, so that amarr ships actually start to use them again, however i think this should be given in the form of amarr ship bonuses and not by improving the stats of the actuall lasers. if this is done the wrong way round then every BS in space will be suing tachys again before we know it.
On a PVP note i dont think the Apoc should be able to hold its own with the best PVP ships, every ship needs an area of expertise, the apoc is already the master miner and one of the best, if not the best NPC hunter in the game, i think to improve it much in the pvp stakes would be to make it a little too good.
No im not trying to slate my own ship but id rather have the ship stable (as in not getting nerfed or improved with every patch) I bought the ship for its mining abilitys if i wanted to go into PVP i would buy either a scorp or a tempest. i dont think any ship should be great in all areas.
QD
|
zapp brainigan
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 12:13:00 -
[28]
|
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 12:26:00 -
[29]
Quote:
I use an apoc and this is how i see it, sorry if this is slightly off topic, i just wanted to ad my view.
Not seeing lasers on none amarr ships is how it should be, they demand a huge amount of power and as such lasers should only be usable by amarr ships as they are the only ones with enough power to actually make use of them.
maybe lasers do need a little love, so that amarr ships actually start to use them again, however i think this should be given in the form of amarr ship bonuses and not by improving the stats of the actuall lasers. if this is done the wrong way round then every BS in space will be suing tachys again before we know it.
On a PVP note i dont think the Apoc should be able to hold its own with the best PVP ships, every ship needs an area of expertise, the apoc is already the master miner and one of the best, if not the best NPC hunter in the game, i think to improve it much in the pvp stakes would be to make it a little too good.
No im not trying to slate my own ship but id rather have the ship stable (as in not getting nerfed or improved with every patch) I bought the ship for its mining abilitys if i wanted to go into PVP i would buy either a scorp or a tempest. i dont think any ship should be great in all areas.
QD
an apoc is quite good already in pvp BUT the problem is that it sucks in pvp when using lasers. i'd rather use 425mm rails than tachs or megabeams and i'd rather use blasters than mega pulses.
why? because i can have better defenses and still be able dish out more damage with them than lasers.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Miriel Arkonis
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 14:09:00 -
[30]
Quote:
If it wasnt for 425's being so powerfull at the moment i dont have a clue why youre all arguing this?
Proj use no cap yet they have a low tracking and high rof due to it
Lasers are high cap use - no ammo requirement - near instant crystal change. Good ROF
Ive never really used hybrids since all the millions of patches so i am going to refrain from commenting on them
The only thing i can think of is that Tachs need a tiny tiny boost as they are supposed to be a Super-Laser, like the Howitzer is the super Proj. Hybrids dont have a class as such i believe??
Only the Tachyon is a one-of-kind super weapon. The Howitzer is not a super projectile it is just the longer range of the 2 long range guns in each size category. Small is 250mm artilery and 280mm howitzer, medium is 650mm artilery and 720mm howitzer, large is 1200mm artilery and 1400mm howitzer. All have the same damage mods and the same relative range and RoF. The 1400mm that everyone rants about is no different then the 720mm or the 280mm.
|
VoxDei
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 14:42:00 -
[31]
IMO there should be more crystals and hybrid ammo added, allowing laser users to do kinetic and explosive damage and hybrid users to do EM and explosive should they want to (although obviously not all types at once). That would force people to reshuffle the hardeners they use, and go a long way to improving the potential damage of lasers - they are no longer restricted to the types of damage that everyone and their dog defends against. I did note the guy earlier in the thread who said hardening wasn't the cause of the problem, but I can't believe it's not a contributory factor.
|
Arthur Eld
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 15:20:00 -
[32]
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
|
Desdemoniam
|
Posted - 2004.04.02 23:35:00 -
[33]
Quote:
On a PVP note i dont think the Apoc should be able to hold its own with the best PVP ships, every ship needs an area of expertise. Quote:
I can see how this makes sense to you....actually no i cant with the incoming cap relay nerf beams will become usseless however the apoc will become the best armor tank there is, as for currently as is b4 the cap relay nerf the apoc holds its own againts what u so call best PVP ships because it is one of the best, apocs can fit the beams which still do quite a bit of damage in comparison to 425mm rails, and be faster than the rof of the projectiles. Currently with cap relays it makes a great shield tank using 4x tachyons and 4x heavy beams u can run an xl booster for a very long time.
|
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.03 13:18:00 -
[34]
Quote:
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
excellent and 100% correct analysis.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
EvilWezal
|
Posted - 2004.04.03 20:50:00 -
[35]
Apoc's need some love and so do Laser's.I'm having to skill for a Scorp to do PvP. It's rediculous since the Amarr's are supposed to be a Very Powerful Race with Very Powerful Ships/Weapons.
Tachs need to be rebalanced. I can only fit 4 on my apoc. and keep them running for about 10 mins. They are worthless in fleetbattles. Amarr ships are supposed to be the Best in game not the worse!
|
Levin Cavil
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 06:19:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/04/2004 06:21:45
Quote:
The bit about midrange crystals - hybrid users have to do it too. Iron and antimatter both use far more cap.
Actually Antimatter ammo makes the gun use 100% of the guns base cap use. The Iron ammo is a -20% reduction in cap need. So there is not a penalty for using iron ammo, it's a BONUS! The mid range bonus is better of course but that is to be expected, you are risking more at the mid ganges and you aren't dealing max damage. There is no penalty.
I do however agree that lasers need love, since I don't fly the apoc and I don't use lasers so I can't make a good suggestion.
------------------------------
<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
|
Garrik Shelt
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 07:08:00 -
[37]
Uh, you guys are missing something here. While Amaarr ships are supposed to be very powerful, their skill is supposed to be in defense, not in attack. Notice that Amarr ships have the most armor and stucture, so you should you Armor repairers. Those of you trying to use a sheild booster are missing the point of your ships. If you want a super powerful ship that you can load full of weapons, you need to get a Minmatar ship and load it w/ Howittzers or something, cause that's what they are best at. I mean come on, just because your ship has 7 turret hardpoints doesn't mean you are supposed to put 7 tach's on it. Maybe you should put a few midrange weapons on also. Then you can deal w/ a variety of situations.
As for my complaints about lasers, I always thought that they should have the longest range of weapons. I mean, they shoot focused light, which can't lose speed, so how can it not travel long distances. All the other weapons consist of firing a projectile of some sort, which will eventually lose speed and lose effectiveness.
---------------------------------------------------------
Those who live by the sword, die by those who don't |
Arthur Eld
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 15:22:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Arthur Eld on 04/04/2004 15:24:06
Quote:
Uh, you guys are missing something here. While Amaarr ships are supposed to be very powerful, their skill is supposed to be in defense, not in attack. Notice that Amarr ships have the most armor and stucture, so you should you Armor repairers. Those of you trying to use a sheild booster are missing the point of your ships. If you want a super powerful ship that you can load full of weapons, you need to get a Minmatar ship and load it w/ Howittzers or something, cause that's what they are best at. I mean come on, just because your ship has 7 turret hardpoints doesn't mean you are supposed to put 7 tach's on it. Maybe you should put a few midrange weapons on also. Then you can deal w/ a variety of situations.
Try running 4 tachyons and 1 armour repairer for any useful length of time.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:14:00 -
[39]
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arthur Eld
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:23:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
My point is that amarr cant maintain cap while using 1 armour repairer and using only 4 of its turret slots as opposed to what the poster of the quote suggested.
And, 4 tachyons have no where near the damage potential of a blaster boat, so your point is?
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:29:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
My point is that amarr cant maintain cap while using 1 armour repairer and using only 4 of its turret slots as opposed to what the poster of the quote suggested.
And, 4 tachyons have no where near the damage potential of a blaster boat, so your point is?
ehm yeah and tachyons don't need a mwd and suicidal range. Just curious about one thing, why can I do it, and you can't?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Shirei
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:37:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Shirei on 04/04/2004 19:39:20
Because the cap use gives you no advantage with tachs.
With neutron blasters, it gives you the highest DoT gun in the game... On the other hand, instead of using those 4 tachs, you could just use 6 425mm railguns (for the same powergrid) and have.... better total damage, very much better damage against armor, better range and less cap drain. And you won't even get CPU problems, if you tank armor. The only two disadvantages you get are that 425mms use ammo (which isn't that bad) and that you are using 2 more high slots (but that isn't too bad either, considering that you can't use those high slots for anything terribly useful for long range anyway, if you already have 4 tachs fitted - maybe 2 smartbombs for missile defense or 2 heavy beams for short-medium range... and 4 tachs + 2 heavy beams still give less damage than 6 425mms and have less average range).
|
Perforator
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:42:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
Assuming Controlled Bursts level 4 and Battleship level 4, 4 tachyons require more cap to run than 8 neutron blasters, so get your facts straight.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:46:00 -
[44]
Then don't use 4 tachyons FFS, whats with the I wanna use the biggest gun but I can't make it work the game is broken thing amarrians suffer from, if I can't make neutrons work I don't use them I use Ions if I can't make those work I use dual IONs. And newsflash the best blasterthron setups use IONs and dual IONs, and their pilots don't go around making 20 threads on how the game sucks cause we can't use all Neutron setups.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Shirei
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 19:55:00 -
[45]
If megabeams were much better, noone would be complaining I think. But currently the most effective long-range choice for an Apoc seem to be 425mm rails, which is a bit strange for an Amarr ship, lasers being their preferred weapon and all.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.04 20:16:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
Ehm 4 tachyons take 75% of the amount of cap it takes to run a blaster batterie. so your point is?
Assuming Controlled Bursts level 4 and Battleship level 4, 4 tachyons require more cap to run than 8 neutron blasters, so get your facts straight.
My apologies was going on the cap usage of my blasters, and I got pretty decent skills that up the cap usage of my blasters by quite a bit and compared that to the number I remembered from another post somewhere about tachyons but apparently that person had crap skills. Taking base stats and just those 2 skills at lvl 4:
Tachyon 125*.8*.8/12.5=6.4cap/sec
Neutron cannon: 30*.8/7.875=3.04cap/sec
But then again a apoc doesn't have to deal with the 60cap/sec drain of a mwd.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Negotiator
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 05:20:00 -
[47]
ummm every argument so far has been - i want to improve the Apoc cuz i want it to be the best ship ever cuz i fly one. (especialy goes for Evil Wizard). If you want damage, go for damage.(4+tachs...) If you want defense, go for defense (armor hardening in lows) and sacrifice the firepower. Or go for something in the middle. In each extreeme, Apoc is on par with other ships. It can't be both - its extreems are too powerful to do both. AND its the best mining ship as well... AND a realy good NPC farmer...wtf are you whining about??? the fact that there is no IDDQD IDKFA ship is called "balance", u know the thing that makes games fun?...
|
Raknor
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 07:27:00 -
[48]
Quote:
As I've said before. People who want to use lasers have an incentive to use Amarr ships (due to amarr ship bonuses), but people who want to use amarr ships don't have enough incentive to use lasers over another type of weapon (again, due to ship bonuses). Thus lasers are becoming rarely used by anyone. Amarr ships reduce the pain of using lasers but not enough nor give enough extra benifit to outweigh the use of different weapons.
Bingo. The Amar ships need to have there Bonuses looked at. Ship bonuses should be about making a type of weapon most effective on that ship. Maby increasing that 5% reduction in laser cap use increased to 10% would be the first place to look. This would give near the 30% decrease in cap use that people are asking for without moving the bonus to all races.
May your gunĘs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it. |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 08:22:00 -
[49]
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 08:29:00 -
[50]
Quote:
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
If the guns are balanced, please explain why you seldom see lasers on non-Amarr ships, but you see all sorts of weaponry on Amarr ships.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 08:51:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Quote:
k so let's give Amarr a incentive to use lasers. Reduce laser damage by 20% and give a apoc a 5% damage bonus instead of it's cap bonus, that will have you using lasers? Ehm no cause it makes the problem you say you have ( lack of cap ) worse. The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails. You DON'T have to use lasers if you can't deal with their cap drain. Like I don't have to use blasters if I can't deal with the cap drain/range. I can't deal with the cap usage I throw in some autocannons. I can't deal with range I fit 425s or whatever. It's called flexibility. Amarr ships are the best with lasers by far, that doesn't mean that's all they should use. A Megathron is the best blasterboat in game but a apoc can use them as effectivly, does that mean the megathron needs better ship bonuses? a apoc needs a nerf? blasters need a rework?
If the guns are balanced, please explain why you seldom see lasers on non-Amarr ships, but you see all sorts of weaponry on Amarr ships.
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:08:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
now tell me how to equip my apoc with lasers and be able to take your megathron out.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:14:00 -
[53]
Edited by: qrac on 05/04/2004 10:15:56
Quote:
The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails.
since guns are actually balanced we can take away all ship bonuses for guns. 
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:24:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Edited by: qrac on 05/04/2004 10:15:56
Quote:
The funny thing is guns are actually balanced now and that indeed means that you can get as much DOT using rails on your apoc, and if you don't understand the strenghts of lasers, then by all means fit rails.
since guns are actually balanced we can take away all ship bonuses for guns.
If all ships had the exact same grid etc. etc. why not. Would make the game terrible boring though.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:31:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Quote:
Depends on where you look, cause I see a lot of lasers on non-Amarr ships. And even if that was the case it would be easily explained lasers have a lot of advantages but their disadvantage is quite hard to deal with for the common pilot, especially considering the common Amarr pilot has trouble pulling it off and he/she has it a lot easier then for instance a megathron pilot. Question is, is that a unbalance in the game, or pilots that can't kit their ships properly. You say it's the first, I say it's the second option.
now tell me how to equip my apoc with lasers and be able to take your megathron out.
There are apoc setups that can deal with a blasterthron even when using lasers. And as soon as I share my blasterthron setup I'll share the apoc setups I mean, atm it's post-Shiva but that might change.  
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:37:00 -
[56]
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Arthur Eld
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:43:00 -
[57]
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 10:59:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
That depends on what advantages your looking for. And again why does the fact that you can't make lasers work for you, like you want them to, mean there is something wrong with lasers?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 11:38:00 -
[59]
gariuys, you're missing the point. there is no point in using lasers on most amarr ships.
take the apocalypse for example. why fit lasers when hybrids are better for both long and close range? this makes the apocalypse and a lot of other amarr ships waste a valuable ship bonus.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Arthur Eld
|
Posted - 2004.04.05 11:39:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I've heard that dual heavy beams are nice.
They are not bad, but their range is limited and their tracking isn't that great for using the shorter range, higher damage crystals.
Ah, ffs, there isn't a problem with amarr ships, the problem is that its more advantages for an amarr ships to use different weapons than it is for lasers. ATM, no one but amarr can use lasers due to its cap drain and amarr don't use them because it's better to use different weapons. This isn't about tachs being crap, its about the incentive for amarr to use thier racial weapons over another races weapons.
That depends on what advantages your looking for. And again why does the fact that you can't make lasers work for you, like you want them to, mean there is something wrong with lasers?
What depends on what advantages im looking for? And what part do you play in determining the balance of this game?
Im not looking for advantages. When no one, including Amarr, are using lasers, there is a balance problem. It's apparent that you don't get around lasers much. Let the people who are familiar with them make useful contributions to this discussion.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |