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Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Exlegion From experience I can tell you that when I run missions in low sec I am constantly being interrupted. Sometimes it will take me days (or odd times, late, late nights) to complete a mission I would normally complete in minutes, waiting for pirates to clear the area. Once they probe my mission deadspace gate all they have to do is wait. They know I have to get back in there if I don't want to lose standings. From experience I can tell you that you need to move to a less populated low-sec system, possibly change the corp you're missioning for in the process. Longest time I've EVER had to wait for pirates to leave is 30 minutes and I could easily count the number of times I've had to do that. I was content on sticking with Caldari Navy at first, too, but eventually decided to switch and get my standings up for Khanid (which took only a week) and ended up earning nearly double that which I was getting in Hi-sec during a similar time period (Month in Hi-sec earned me 1Bil, Month in low-sec earned me 1.8bil whilst playing pretty much the same amount of time per day)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:19:00 - [32] As much as I disagree with Gamesguy opinions, one of his posts as a valid comment if applied, rephrased it was something like "I want to decide where I am counted". It would be interesting if or 1 day or 1 week we had a mandatory choice to make (with no game effect, only for a survey) at log in: "You want to be counted as a: High sec denizen Low sec denizen 0.0 denizen" The question should appear only 1 time for each account and not on trial accounts (for several easy to grap reasons). At least it would indicate what the player think their game area is, even if they really spent more time in other areas of the game.
Roy Gordon Caldari Caldari Advanced Response Division G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:19:00 - [33] To make people move to low or null sec space requires a bit more than chanting the same old mantra of moving lvl 4 agents. To persuade people to LOSE VALUABLE SHIPS AND MODULES requires that the benefits ultimately outweigh the risks. Which is patently not the case at the moment. Upping the bounty payments for rat ships in low/null sec might help, as would things like complexes that give really decent stuff. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Lord Evangelian Gallente LEAP Corp	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Everybody have good idea's on how to "move" people to low sec, but no one have given any reason why. Besides the pirates who just want more easy mission runner targets. If the pirates want more targets in low sec, they should gank less and let more earn the isk they want. The main reason no one wants to go to low sec, is because of the pirates busting missions and killing without risk. Yes, there is a thousands ways to protect yourself against that, but then a lvl 4 mission becomes more hazzle than worth. I say, leave low-sec as it is. It's a danger zone with a lot of risk. It's a charme of it's own. I point you here good sir --------------------
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:23:00 - [35] Edited by: Exlegion on 20/02/2008 19:25:49 Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Exlegion From experience I can tell you that when I run missions in low sec I am constantly being interrupted. Sometimes it will take me days (or odd times, late, late nights) to complete a mission I would normally complete in minutes, waiting for pirates to clear the area. Once they probe my mission deadspace gate all they have to do is wait. They know I have to get back in there if I don't want to lose standings. From experience I can tell you that you need to move to a less populated low-sec system, possibly change the corp you're missioning for in the process. Longest time I've EVER had to wait for pirates to leave is 30 minutes and I could easily count the number of times I've had to do that. I was content on sticking with Caldari Navy at first, too, but eventually decided to switch and get my standings up for Khanid (which took only a week) and ended up earning nearly double that which I was getting in Hi-sec during a similar time period (Month in Hi-sec earned me 1Bil, Month in low-sec earned me 1.8bil whilst playing pretty much the same amount of time per day) I have not run missions for the Navy in a while precisely for the reasons you state. I made the move to another very quite system for another corporation within Caldari. All was well for a few weeks until pirates started roaming and now constantly prowl the area. Suffice it to say when I relocated it was still deep within low sec and local did not peak over 3 players at a time. I'll assume you've run missions in low sec and understand the logistics it takes to move operations from system to system . One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:29:00 - [36] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/02/2008 19:30:27 Well, low-sec HAS to have a low population, because any density higher then 2-3 people per system means you can't really do a lot of productive stuff there ;) I find low-sec to be relatively fine. Could it use a minor boost regarding belt rats/ores? Yes. Should we do any major changes? Not really. Furthermore, did they count in my two 800K SP alts stationed in high-sec used for selling low-sec loots and resupplying them? ;) It'd be much better if they made a survey, per account. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:32:00 - [37] If you really, really want to force a migration out of densely populated high sec systems then the solution is quite simple (though that's not to say Im an advocate of it)... Simply cause 'resources' (Asteroid Belts, Mission Plexes) to be worn out - essentially "over mined". An approximate 'real world analogy' (and it is just an analogy so dont bother trying to pick holes in it...) would be the depletion of fishing stocks due to over fishing. An example of how this might work: An asteroid belt in high sec is over mined, and reduced to just gaseous elements. If left alone it will eventually recover. An asteroid belt in Low Sec is untouched, over time its deposits actually increase in value (a veldspar roid starts to sprout mexalon crystals for example). The same could apply to missions - agents giving poorer quality missions if they're very popular (all the good jobs have been completed). Isolated agents, less frequented are no doubt estatic to finally see a capsuleer and offer a better reward to keep them on task. The mission itself might actually degrade in value if taken by players a great deal - after all there cant be that many Guristas Battleships just sitting about in that 0.5 system: not with all those mission runners about.... And if you dont like those suggestions, check my signature for some other options C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:37:00 - [38] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/02/2008 19:42:03 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/02/2008 19:30:27 Well, low-sec HAS to have a low population, because any density higher then 2-3 people per system means you can't really do a lot of productive stuff there ;) I find low-sec to be relatively fine. Could it use a minor boost regarding belt rats/ores? Yes. Should we do any major changes? Not really. Furthermore, did they count in my two 800K SP alts stationed in high-sec used for selling low-sec loots and resupplying them? ;) It'd be much better if they made a survey, per account. The current survey count the number of jumps done, so if your alts are seldom used and run resupply runs in low sec, they have a low influence in the numbers as high sec dwellers. It is a way better system that the one used in the previous blog as it count activity. Originally by: Cailais The same could apply to missions - agents giving poorer quality missions if they're very popular (all the good jobs have been completed). Isolated agents, less frequented are no doubt estatic to finally see a capsuleer and offer a better reward to keep them on task. The mission itself might actually degrade in value if taken by players a great deal - after all there cant be that many Guristas Battleships just sitting about in that 0.5 system: not with all those mission runners about.... Dynamic agents quality. Good in theory, bad in practice until the different numbers of agents aren't better balanced. Currently caldari have 76 level 4 kill agents, gallente 39, minmatar 36. If you introduce dynamic quality the gallente and minmatar will degrade way faster than the caldari. Not a good way for balance of the races.
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:41:00 - [39] Originally by: Venkul Mul As much as I disagree with Gamesguy opinions, one of his posts as a valid comment if applied, rephrased it was something like "I want to decide where I am counted". It would be interesting if or 1 day or 1 week we had a mandatory choice to make (with no game effect, only for a survey) at log in: "You want to be counted as a: High sec denizen Low sec denizen 0.0 denizen" The question should appear only 1 time for each account and not on trial accounts (for several easy to grap reasons). At least it would indicate what the player think their game area is, even if they really spent more time in other areas of the game. I don't think people deciding where they are counted is valid, the statistics should always show the facts and not what people think they should show because as well as showing the population figures they show that 99% of the "Hardcore" players including the -10 flashy red piebears spend a large chunk of their time carebearing it up in high sec either on their mains or on their alts.. So a good proportion of the players touting "risk v reward" and all that crap are just hypocrites. ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Brutoth Tain I don't think people deciding where they are counted is valid, the statistics should always show the facts and not what people think they should show because as well as showing the population figures they show that 99% of the "Hardcore" players including the -10 flashy red piebears spend a large chunk of their time carebearing it up in high sec either on their mains or on their alts.. So a good proportion of the players touting "risk v reward" and all that crap are just hypocrites. True, but it would give a third set of data to place near the other 2 (look my post on the first page). None of the data is completly "true" but confronting them would give a clearer picture.
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:55:00 - [41] Edited by: Bimjo on 20/02/2008 19:56:12 Originally by: L70Rogue move L3 and L4 agents to low sec. BTW, most people in high sec are the alts of 0.0 mains. lets see , 20% in 0.0 and 70% in Hi-Sec as per report ? Are you suggesting that the average 0.0 resident has 3 accounts ?(2 in empire) which is what would be required to make your statement true p.s. as already said , forcing won't work so moving L4 to low sec would be a waste of time. When I mission run in empire I always reject the Low Sec ones , mostly because it takes much much longer to complete them(safely) , hence risk Vs reward in Low Sec is not worth it ======================== XXX
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise	Posted - 2008.02.20 20:12:00 - [42] Low security favors the pirate/pvper to the point that the risk v. reward for operating in lowsec is abhorrent to the mission runner, and the miner. The situation hasn't gotten better its gotten worse. I was talking to a corp mate about this as we were strolling around lowsec. The lack of people is amazing. Most of the people you see are docked. The small satellite markets have mostly dried up. It is rather sad
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.20 20:32:00 - [43] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 20/02/2008 20:32:44 Originally by: Exlegion I have not run missions for the Navy in a while precisely for the reasons you state. I made the move to another very quite system for another corporation within Caldari. All was well for a few weeks until pirates started roaming and now constantly prowl the area. Suffice it to say when I relocated it was still deep within low sec and local did not peak over 3 players at a time. I'll assume you've run missions in low sec and understand the logistics it takes to move operations from system to system . Some places are more pirate-infested than others, obviously. I suppose it also helps having teeth so your activities don't completely grind to a halt due to 1 Pirate station-camping you. Co-operating with any other local missionrunners can also work wonders but requires a little trust - Nothing like Carebears coming out in force As for Logistics... Yes they're a pain and so is moving my Freighter through low-sec (with fingers over Ctrl and Q since a single bit of aggro would equal me losing everything) but for me those risks are acceptable as the potential maximum profit from low-sec hubs is MUCH higher. Low-sec is a completely different environment to hi-sec, though, and if you don't have much knowledge of game mechanics then going there can be certain death. (Whereas, if you DO know how to survive there, you'll only die through being EXTREMELY unlucky or plain careless) Hi-sec does NOTHING whatsoever to prepare people for the dangers of low-sec or 0.0. It's a Safe Haven which can cater to all the needs most Hi-Sec dwellers could ever desire. The thought of losing all of that and to suddenly be fair game for every idiot wanting to ruin your day for rewards that are only approx 50% higher on average probably isn't going to be encouraging many people to move. I don't like the idea of forcing people to go to low-sec... but at the same time I don't think Hi-sec should be the shining comfort zone that it is. There needs to either be a very good reason to move there or the extreme contrast between 0.5 and 0.4 needs to be toned down. I always liked the idea of the Sec Status system being changed completely so that it represented more of a gradual increase in risk as it got lower (between 0.9 and 0.1) rather than the 'SAFE / UNSAFE' situation it's in atm, but like that'l ever happen
Daddy Xerox	Posted - 2008.02.20 20:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Tank CEO Move all Lvl 4 + 5 Agents to low sec. Move all research agents to low sec. Put better npcs in low sec, put better ore in low sec. Problem solved. To fix properly... reduce stations in empire to 1 per system. Move all but scord/veld out. Quadruple the damage lowsec sentries do. There, lowsec fixed.
Ieu Duin Amarr Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.02.20 20:50:00 - [45] Originally by: Pax Ratlin Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tank CEO Move all Lvl 4 + 5 Agents to low sec. Move all research agents to low sec. Put better npcs in low sec, put better ore in low sec. Problem solved. /signed Forcing people to go to low sec WILL NOT significantly increase low sec population all it WILL make people try and find away around being forced into low sec. Increasing the reward vs risk ratio WILL increase low sec population. Encouraging people ALWAYS works much much better than FORCING people ... basic human nature. As long as you have game mechanics that make it easier to be the wolf than the lamb, increasing reward vs. risk ratio will never work. It is a fine concept, but the only thing worse than getting PKed is getting PKed and loosing your cool reward you just survived the risk for. That only needs to happen a couple of times for folks to not opt for taking those kinds of risks. You are always going to have the certain segment of the population that desires to live in the badlands. The majority of players will always desire to operate in the safer areas. There is plenty enough danger in the safer areas to satisfy most of the high sec players needs. If those folks living in low sec did not spend so much time fighting for their lives maybe they could enjoy some of the benefits of operating in low sec. In the end you are never going to have large amounts of pilots opting to risk what it takes to venture into low sec or 0.0. Other than trivia, I donÆt even know why they waste their time tracking that data. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
F90OEX	Posted - 2008.02.20 21:21:00 - [46] Interesting... but I can't see CCP changing anything about lowsec. When was the last time they ever gave lowsec a boost. Probably never..
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.02.20 21:26:00 - [47] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 20/02/2008 21:27:11 The only way to get people into lowsec is an incentive increase. For example, placing minable comets that yielded moon minerals flying about in lowsec. If the incentive is great enough, I'm sure people will come in true goldrush fashion. As it stands now there are very limited pull factors to lowsec, and creating a push factor will only push people out of the game, as nobody is forcing them to play it. EDIT: To the above poster, I believe the last boost to lowsec might have been the exploration improvement in Trinity, though that might have just been Highsec.
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.02.20 21:29:00 - [48] Again, the data is worthless until he starts differentiating between on-account noob alts and main characters. The majority of people who live in 0.0 and lowsec will have 2 on-account alts in empire for price checks or scouting during war. Same goes for off-account mission/production alts.
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.20 21:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Alex Shurk Again, the data is worthless until he starts differentiating between on-account noob alts and main characters. The majority of people who live in 0.0 and lowsec will have 2 on-account alts in empire for price checks or scouting during war. Same goes for off-account mission/production alts. The data this time counts moving characters flying around, if character is flying around active its part of the high sec population, noob alt or not if its active its doing something for the accounts owner unless tens of thousands of low sec and o.9 dwellers fly noob alts around high sec for kicks. ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.02.20 21:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Brutoth Tain The data this time counts moving characters flying around, if character is flying around active its part of the high sec population, noob alt or not if its active its doing something for the accounts owner unless tens of thousands of low sec and o.9 dwellers fly noob alts around high sec for kicks. Well, there's not much point to having a highsec alt if you dont occasionally put it to use, is there?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:02:00 - [51] "There are three kinds of lies, lies damned lies and statisics" Now I¦m not saying that these numbers are wrong but you can¦t simply look at the raw populationnumbers of each sector and solely by that judge whether an area is underpopulated or not. E.g do you know the relative size of each sector? Is it possible that low-sec consist of fewer systems? Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Tank CEO Move all Lvl 4 + 5 Agents to low sec. Move all research agents to low sec. Put better npcs in low sec, put better ore in low sec. Problem solved. huge thread about this already on the front page that arguement has been proven wrong. If you¦re reffering to the thread that I think you are then I can¦t see how you can say this.
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:13:00 - [52] Edited by: Brutoth Tain on 20/02/2008 22:15:32 Originally by: Cpt Fina you can¦t simply look at the raw populationnumbers of each sector and solely by that judge whether an area is underpopulated or not. E.g do you know the relative size of each sector? Is it possible that low-sec consist of fewer systems? I would say the amount of systems each type of space has is irrelevant to the point I'm raising, I'm pointing out that the whole generic low sec is vastly less populated than high sec. Now if you take Venkul Muls adjusted figures the picture is the same, Originally by: Venkul Mul If I recall correctly it is something like 20% high sec, 10% low sec, 70% 0.0 (around 1.000 high sec, 500 low sec, 3500 0.0) 1.350.000/3.500 = 385 5,8% of adjusted movement (0.0) 743.000/500 = 1.486 22,4% of adjusted movement (low sec) 4.760.000/1.000 = 4.760 71,78% of adjusted movement (high sec) Total 6631 And Venkuls numbers do not even need to be totally accurate they only need to be in the same ballpark to still support Doctor Dr.EyjoGs report. And my other point that if this is the case low sec is underutilised and a waste of space and what could be done to make better use of it. Turning into high is not the answer and neither is removing anything from high sec, but something could be done and should be done imo. ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Brutoth Tain Edited by: Brutoth Tain on 20/02/2008 22:15:32 Originally by: Cpt Fina you can¦t simply look at the raw populationnumbers of each sector and solely by that judge whether an area is underpopulated or not. E.g do you know the relative size of each sector? Is it possible that low-sec consist of fewer systems? I would say the amount of systems each type of space has is irrelevant to the point I'm raising, I'm pointing out that the whole generic low sec is vastly less populated than high sec. Now if you take Venkul Muls adjusted figures the picture is the same, Now, did I respond to you or Venkul? I'm simply stating that you can't only realy on population to measure whether low-sec is underpopulated or not.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Brutoth Tain Edited by: Brutoth Tain on 20/02/2008 22:15:32 Originally by: Cpt Fina you can¦t simply look at the raw populationnumbers of each sector and solely by that judge whether an area is underpopulated or not. E.g do you know the relative size of each sector? Is it possible that low-sec consist of fewer systems? I would say the amount of systems each type of space has is irrelevant to the point I'm raising, I'm pointing out that the whole generic low sec is vastly less populated than high sec. Now if you take Venkul Muls adjusted figures the picture is the same, Now, did I respond to you or Venkul? I'm simply stating that you can't only realy on population to measure whether low-sec is underpopulated or not. Originally by: Cpt Fina E.g do you know the relative size of each sector? Is it possible that low-sec consist of fewer systems? You have your data on the relative size of each sector. So care to give your opinion? Or as usual you will play innuendo but never state something so you can say "It is not what I was saying" as you are used?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Venkul Mul You have your data on the relative size of each sector. So care to give your opinion? My opinion? My opinion is that you need to take more factors than raw population into account when measuring is an area is underpopulated or not. Just as I said in my initial post. Originally by: Venkul Mul Or as usual you will play innuendo but never state something so you can say "It is not what I was saying" as you are used? Heh, kinda funny that you'd say so since the last time we had an discussion you simply stopped responding to my posts even tho it was you who attacked my integrity. Unless you resume that thread and respond to my last reply I suggest you stfu.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.20 22:54:00 - [56] The only way I'd voluntarily enter losec space is if there was some very convincing reason to have to put up with gate campers, mission gankers, can flippers, etc. I can happily run missions with my undergeared ships by running with friends. I doubt we could field a convincingly strong fleet to take on gate campers in 0.5/0.4, nor could we put together a fleet big enough to discourage pirates from trying their luck. Consider that once we start running a mission, the pirates are at the advantage - they can see where we are, how many of us there are, and what ships we're running. They can tailor their fleet to beat ours, and head on in to gank us while we're busy fighting NPCs. One day I'll be ready to head out in active search of PvP, but until then I'll be hiding in the safety of hisec. Then once I've had my fill of PvP, I'll be heading back to hisec to lick my wounds and rebuild whatever ships I lost, repurchase the implants I lost, and see if there's anything to learn from the encounter.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.20 23:14:00 - [57] Originally by: Bimjo Edited by: Bimjo on 20/02/2008 19:56:12 Originally by: L70Rogue move L3 and L4 agents to low sec. BTW, most people in high sec are the alts of 0.0 mains. lets see , 20% in 0.0 and 70% in Hi-Sec as per report ? Are you suggesting that the average 0.0 resident has 3 accounts ?(2 in empire) which is what would be required to make your statement true You realize we can have 3 characters/account? For example I have one char that spends all its time in 0.0, one char that spends most of its time in 0.0, and 4 others that spend their time in empire. Quote: p.s. as already said , forcing won't work so moving L4 to low sec would be a waste of time. When I mission run in empire I always reject the Low Sec ones , mostly because it takes much much longer to complete them(safely) , hence risk Vs reward in Low Sec is not worth it No one cares about people like you. But if you moved L4s to lowsec I bet all the 0.0ers with L4 mission running alts will run them in lowsec as well. Compared to 0.0 lowsec is a carebear paradise.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.20 23:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/02/2008 19:08:51 Originally by: L70Rogue Edited by: L70Rogue on 20/02/2008 18:58:04 move L3 and L4 agents to low sec. BTW, most people in high sec are the alts of 0.0 mains. Again this refrain Always the last trench of the "my playstile must prevail" people. The number of jumps mean that the characters are active so it better reflect the true time spent playing the characters. Except a miner or a mission runner hardly uses the jump gate. Where as a hauling alt will use 20 in 30 minutes. Its a terrible way to measure population, considering how many people in highsec dont even move from their system.
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.20 23:34:00 - [59] Edited by: Brutoth Tain on 20/02/2008 23:36:28 Originally by: Gamesguy Its a terrible way to measure population Take both surveys into account, people tried to debunk and shrug off the first population report because of the method used to generate the statistics so second time around they changed the method and the frequency of the measurements. Limited as the first survey was the figures have shown to be consistent by the second survey which instead of measuring the amount of characters present it measured the amount of active characters and did so over a longer period. Both the limited character count and the detailed survey have provided what can only be interpreted as an accurate population snapshot over a six month period, and over that period low sec is largely unpopulated. Originally by: Gamesguy No one cares about people like you. This is going to be a shock to you but it is you who are in the minority as the 0.0 population isn't that high either. ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.
Shintai Gallente IonTech Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.20 23:42:00 - [60] Its amazing people cant accept other peoples playstyle. Forcing people out of high so what? Probe them when doing missions or whatever so you can get easy targets handed to you? Also if you move L5 and L4 agents to lowsec..people just only do L3. Its very simple. Or they might just quit the game instead. Its like saying concord should be in 0.0 space. 0.0 serves the purpose of being a PvP area, highsec is at times also a PvP area. EvE is one of the few MMOs where you can actually PvP in the socalled safespot. Lowsec however is the only place that dont actually serve a purpose. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry

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