Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 01/03/2008 08:28:08
This was originally posted in General by Cipher7. I have lightly edited it and added a couple extra points. I just thought I would do my part to **** up your CAOD board as many of you seem to like ****ting in C+P and elsewhere. And perhaps the less-informed alliance slaves would enjoy reading this (cheers Cipher7 for an outstanding bit of ****-stirring material to brighten everyone's Saturday):

There is a subsection of the 0.0 population which exploits the other 90% who live there.

The average 0.0 dweller knows nothing about moon mining or POS. He barely knows of the existance of refine taxes. He doesn't know how much the CEO makes from taxes or how much the alliance leader makes.

Regular alliance guy is in a BS he bought with his own money, the money he was graciously allowed to farm from the belts.

Regular alliance guy doesn't know how much his leaders make. He figures since he lives in 0.0 he must be a mover and a shaker.

He doesn't understand that he's actually a sharecropper living on someone else's ranch.

Alliance boss flies a Titan, regular alliance guy aint never gonna have one unless he farms belts for the next 2 years.

Regular alliance guy routinely comes to the forums and complains about level 4 mission runners. Those damn carebears. Why should they be able to make money without the boss's permission?

Why shouldn't they have to pay taxes and a refine fee like him?

Why shouldn't they be at the boss's beck and call to defend the boss's ranch?

Why shouldn't they buy all their ships and t2 mods from the boss's industrial alt?

Why shouldn't they get bullied by the boss for not showing up 60 jumps away on Thursday at 4am?

All should demand more from your alliance leaders:

-Demand open accountability.
-Ever wonder how your alliance leaders support multiple accounts while sitting at home IRL unemployed?
-Ever wonder why they are flying T2 gear and YOU are stuck flying T1 pap?
-Ever wonder why you are paying tax? Where does it all go?
-How many alliance leaders actually give two ****s about you?
-Do you like being a pawn shuffled all over the 0.0 map to satisfy the ego's of the few?
-Do you like playing Powerpoint instead of an actual game?

Wake up slaves.
Free your minds.
Always question authority.
Would you like the red pill. Or the blue pill?

I cannot WAIT to see the responses .

Cheers again Cipher7. I didn't want your post to be buried under the usual mountain of crap without being seen.

Happy Saturday!

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Originally by: Elo Knight

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which one is the red pill

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Elo Knight

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which one is the red pill

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The truth. Demand it.

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Originally by: Fred0

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This is probably true for some corps but it depends and it'd be very wrong to generalize like that.

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Originally by: Dhip C

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Some are meant to lead and some are meant to follow. Either STFU and lead or STFU and follow. The choice is ultimately yours.

My question is whats is Veto's agenda by posting such crap in CAOD. Personally, I think you need to take a break from forums.

2/10 on the mittani thread scale.

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Originally by: kublai

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Originally by: Fred0

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This is probably true for some corps but it depends and it'd be very wrong to generalize like that.

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It's generally true for such alliances as DMC, KOS.

But really, that should be common knowledge, and the victim of this does not really read CAOD.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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The average 0.0 dweller knows nothing about moon mining or POS. He barely knows of the existance of refine taxes. He doesn't know how much the CEO makes from taxes or how much the alliance leader makes.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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The average 0.0 dweller knows nothing about the effort it takes to initially finance moon mining or POS, have no clue about the effort and brainmelt involved in holding Sov. He barely knows of the existance of refine taxes and what they are used to fund. He doesn't know how much the CEO makes for the corp from the endless hours of effort behind the scenes while his guys are out having fun shooting at the enemy. Has no idea how much the alliance leader has to do to be sure his alliance doesnt run out of money at important times of heavy load on these hard won resources.

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Originally by: Vagablonde

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Edited by: Vagablonde on 01/03/2008 10:33:12
I dunno rotb, but your sig (the patton quote) i think goes someway to explain the nature of eve, especially concerning space holding alliances in that some people will dedicate very large amounts of their time, and in that time be vry srs, to forging alliances, creating :politics:, along with the hulking endevour of logistics, whilst the majority of people just want to ride bikes, so they follow, there is no room for people who are not leading or following and simply put a good alliance leader, or the like, deserves to be the one in the biggest ship, etc, he/she is afterall one of the writers of the game people decide to immerse themselves in and go along with /longsentence. Whilst having a large ego isn't always a bad thing is does have the effect of magnifying a persons character and all the crap that comes with them, and people with large egos naturally seek authority, titles, status, etc...

not really sure what i'm trying to say

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Originally by: Keeves

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This is such a bull**** topic. Has your CEO ever told you "OK guys, this is what Veto is doing this next X amount of days/weeks" and you just went and did it because you trusted your CEO? This is such a tinfoil cap conspiracy bull**** thread which makes you think that every 0.0 alliance CEO is pocketing isk made from their corp members.


What about the CEO who spent the countless hours delegating and organising to make this Alliance machine work properly and is still flying a T1 cruiser because he doesnt have the time to go out and pvp or rat or make isk in general? I for one am in that position (even in a generally small corp) and im sure there are many CEO's like me, even in large 0.0 alliances, who are in the very same position...

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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LOL - what a funny thread.

If you are not happy with your alliance then leave it. If you ask your alliance leadership questions and you don't get satisfying answers then leave the alliance.

If you think all alliance leaders are bad and that they would treat you all badly - well, make your own alliance and become a leader yourself.

You can't? No time? Bored with all the necessary stuff? There you are.

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Originally by: Tio 10

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Im not saying that this is the case in ALL alliances, but Im sure most alliance members have heard "You cant do that complex" or "That moon is allready claimed" and so on.
Why Npc 10 hours to make 200m when you can log in your alt that is being payed for moon mining isk and do some hauling around for 2 hours and get 3b?

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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You misunderstand the initial post. I am quite happy where I am. I am simply stimulating discussion and encouraging anarchist anti-authority thoughts .

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 01/03/2008 08:32:02
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 01/03/2008 08:28:08
This was originally posted in General by Cipher7. I have lightly edited it and added a couple extra points. I just thought I would do my part to **** up your CAOD board as many of you seem to like ****ting in C+P and elsewhere. And perhaps the less-informed alliance slaves would enjoy reading this (cheers Cipher7 for an outstanding bit of ****-stirring material to brighten everyone's Saturday):

There is a subsection of the 0.0 population which exploits the other 90% who live there.

The average 0.0 dweller knows nothing about moon mining or POS. He barely knows of the existance of refine taxes. He doesn't know how much the CEO makes from taxes or how much the alliance leader makes.

Regular alliance guy is in a BS he bought with his own money, the money he was graciously allowed to farm from the belts.

Regular alliance guy doesn't know how much his leaders make. He figures since he lives in 0.0 he must be a mover and a shaker.

He doesn't understand that he's actually a sharecropper living on someone else's ranch.

Alliance boss flies a Titan, regular alliance guy aint never gonna have one unless he farms belts for the next 2 years.

Regular alliance guy routinely comes to the forums and complains about level 4 mission runners. Those damn carebears. Why should they be able to make money without the boss's permission?

Why shouldn't they have to pay taxes and a refine fee like him?

Why shouldn't they be at the boss's beck and call to defend the boss's ranch?

Why shouldn't they buy all their ships and t2 mods from the boss's industrial alt?

Why shouldn't they get bullied by the boss for not showing up 60 jumps away on Thursday at 4am?

All should demand more from your alliance leaders:

-Demand open accountability.
-Ever wonder how your alliance leaders support multiple accounts while sitting at home IRL unemployed?
-Ever wonder why they are flying T2 gear and YOU are stuck flying T1 pap?
-Ever wonder why you are paying tax? Where does it all go?
-How many alliance leaders actually give two ****s about you?
-Do you like being a pawn shuffled all over the 0.0 map to satisfy the ego's of the few?
-Do you like playing Powerpoint instead of an actual game?

Wake up slaves.
Free your minds.
Always question authority.
Would you like the red pill. Or the blue pill?

I cannot WAIT to see the responses .

Cheers again Cipher7. I didn't want your post to be buried under the usual mountain of crap without being seen.

Happy Saturday!

**EDIT**Please feel free to post with alts. No shame in hiding from the boss

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Originally by: Dylan Rhade

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Posting ina RotB thread\o/

Lo Bone, hows life m8?

D

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Originally by: DrDevice

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I think i can translate:

Rise up in revolution against the oppressors of nations!
Rise up against those who would take the sweat from your brow!
Rise up with pitchforks and Torches.

Viva la revolution

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Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver

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anyone who is in a corp in an alliance, chose to be there, if you dont wanna be there and want to

buy tech 2 from the marker instead of your boss's alt?

do level 4 missions?

not be 60 jumps away at 4a.m on thursday?

then go back to empire and join VETO.

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Originally by: Skrypt

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Fact. Agmar is the richest CEO in EVE. His exploitations of GAME are flawless.

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

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Originally by: Hymerus

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The majority of Alliances fall into this category.

The average player just simple doesn't understand how much isk is generated off moon mining towers at the alliance level. Most corp CEOs don't even really get it.

People keep going on about the war in the south being about BoB being jerks. It's not. It's about controlling moons and making isk hand over fist by holding the moon mining rights to half of Eve.

All the reasons that get thrown around here are crap. It's not about freedom, it's not about fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here, it's not about a new world order, it's about the Eve equivalent of oil.

And 99.999% of the people who are losing battleship after battleship out there will never see a single isk in benefit out of it. Sure, they'll get to mine in their covetors or rat, but its a pittance to what their alliance leaders will be making off their work.

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Originally by: Hymerus

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The majority of Alliances fall into this category.

The average player just simple doesn't understand how much isk is generated off moon mining towers at the alliance level. Most corp CEOs don't even really get it.

People keep going on about the war in the south being about BoB being jerks. It's not. It's about controlling moons and making isk hand over fist by holding the moon mining rights to half of Eve.

All the reasons that get thrown around here are crap. It's not about freedom, it's not about fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here, it's not about a new world order, it's about the Eve equivalent of oil.

And 99.999% of the people who are losing battleship after battleship out there will never see a single isk in benefit out of it. Sure, they'll get to mine in their covetors or rat, but its a pittance to what their alliance leaders will be making off their work.

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Originally by: Erotic Irony

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so should I fly stealth bombers or not

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Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

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Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 01/03/2008 18:38:35
Dude, everyone is free to leave. If they're as suspicious as you are, they will likely already have done so. If you're trying to "enlighten" all allliances in this game by this post, then alright. Most of them probably realize that there's a difference between player investments and alliance investments. You know things like fueling towers for an entire region? Buying and producing capital BPO:s, or capitals themselves. Replacing losses, et cetera.

You think that asking a question is going to undermine the alliances of this game or something? Lawl. Geesh Verone, when did you start recruiting such paranoid people. "OH NO! IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!11 MAYBE MY CeO is taking my 10% of my ratting profits for his own beneFIts!?"

Sheesh.

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Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

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Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 01/03/2008 18:38:35
Dude, everyone is free to leave. If they're as suspicious as you are, they will likely already have done so. If you're trying to "enlighten" all allliances in this game by this post, then alright. Most of them probably realize that there's a difference between player investments and alliance investments. You know things like fueling towers for an entire region? Buying and producing capital BPO:s, or capitals themselves. Replacing losses, et cetera.

You think that asking a question is going to undermine the alliances of this game or something? Lawl. Geesh Verone, when did you start recruiting such paranoid people. "OH NO! IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!11 MAYBE MY CeO is taking my 10% of my ratting profits for his own beneFIts!?"

Sheesh.

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Originally by: Gjs312

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Edited by: Gjs312 on 01/03/2008 21:51:21
Lets just say I expect this post to bring Angel's thousandare lifestyle of multiple amutee prostitutes and ebayed cars as pimp as this one Linkage to a screetching halt. Thank you for freeing our minds kind sir.

Also, what happens if I take both the pills?

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Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg

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Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 01/03/2008 22:21:23
I wish I could have read this post earlier, but I was too busy EBaying Isk.

Also, the OP is amazing. Yes, we just high five eachother after killing dysp moons and all the other corporations in our alliances don't actually want to know who gets it and where the money goes. Then we go on and keep the money and encourage people to rat for their BS instead of giving them free and fitted ones, because we don't really need 100% participation anyway. And since territory and moons isn't taken with Dreads, Carriers, MS and titans we don't buy any of those wholesale either and give them right back to members.

You sir are a genius and would make a killing in alliance warfare.

Edited to capture all the genius.

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Originally by: Righteous Fury

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Someone let you into Veto? Verone's standards must seriously be slipping.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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And kudos to you for providing for your members. Ok...thats one alliance that apparently provides full T2-fit battleships at no cost...or...is there a tax? Just asking.

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Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg

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Good stuff

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Originally by: NATMav

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I must be doing it wrong because I still have to rat and explore for all my ISKies.

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Originally by: Captain Blart

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this "The average 0.0 dweller knows nothing about moon mining or POS"

this "Im pretty sure there are lots of alliance grunt that have no idea that you can make 5b a month with just 1 hauler account and 5 posses, that you just have to visit 2 times a month"

this "OP is the only one in this thread who isn't a fool."

this "The average player just simple doesn't understand how much isk is generated off moon mining towers at the alliance level. Most corp CEOs don't even really get it."


And particularly this

"People keep going on about the war in the south being about BoB being jerks. It's not. It's about controlling moons and making isk hand over fist by holding the moon mining rights to half of Eve.

All the reasons that get thrown around here are crap. It's not about freedom, it's not about fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here, it's not about a new world order, it's about the Eve equivalent of oil."
--------------------------------------------

All these quotes are spot on. If you think its all about PvP, evil vs good, and all that crap, you are extremely naive. Sure, its costly to run a POS, but its nothing compared to the income generated by moon mining. Now think if you control a region with very good moons, basically you are sitting on a mine of gold. You can create complex reactions used to create T2 components , which are used to create T2 items and ships.

Delve : very good npc, very good moon mining. why do you think the coalition does not siege Providence ? its not about BoB, its not about good vs evil, these are just poor excuses thrown at the masses to make them jump into the slaughtering, its all about freaking moons mining.


And the funny part is that all the offended people in this thread, most of them lives in 0.0 and have no idea what its all about.

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Quote:

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...then enter a T, not a P Ma'm...a T, A T Ma'm as in Tiddleywinks.

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Originally by: Lighthugger

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Something politics related?

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Originally by: Dramaticus

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Cute Goon comment containing OOG reference I am not aware of nor do I care about

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Originally by: pershphanie

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Edited by: pershphanie on 01/03/2008 23:42:32
Thread willing post

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Originally by: Masu'di

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

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Order, eh? Who does he think he is?

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Originally by: xeom

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Besides who do you think makes more money in a real life corporation? Who do you think does most of the work?

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Originally by: bow locks

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lol. Bone - shoot things in game mate!

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Originally by: Dai Nau

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I used to like to charge people 200m to join goonfleet but then Sesfan said he'd cut anyone's balls off who did it again

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Originally by: NAFnist

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This one time, in fleetops, ET like totally yelled at me because I was being noob, and like, I then totally listened and didnt die

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Originally by: Keeves

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This is such a bull**** topic. Has your CEO ever told you "OK guys, this is what Veto is doing this next X amount of days/weeks" and you just went and did it because you trusted your CEO? This is such a tinfoil cap conspiracy bull**** thread which makes you think that every 0.0 alliance CEO is pocketing isk made from their corp members.

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Originally by: Verone

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Viva la revolution, tbh!

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Masu'di

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

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Order, eh? Who does he think he is?

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I am your King!

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Originally by: Captain Blart

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Delve : very good npc, very good moon mining. why do you think the coalition does not siege Providence ?

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Originally by: Jack Dubrow

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For those of you saying how "hard" it is to run an alliance etc. - that's why you hire managers. Hire enough managers and pay them well enough, then no one complains. Not to mention that leading an alliance is what they get a kick out of, so it's not necessarily WORK for them...it's FUN.

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Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Masu'di

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

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Order, eh? Who does he think he is?

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I am your King!

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Well i didn't vote for you..

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Originally by: SamuraiJack

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oh additional. Gotta say that pirates maybe were the better profession. All you have to worry about is concord and gateguns. Most of the decent pirate corps have the honor to keep their word. Pirating and ransoming and not holding your word just makes things difficult.

Mebbe i need a alt. :-/

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Vagablonde

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Edited by: Vagablonde on 01/03/2008 10:33:12
I dunno rotb, but your sig (the patton quote) i think goes someway to explain the nature of eve, especially concerning space holding alliances in that some people will dedicate very large amounts of their time, and in that time be vry srs, to forging alliances, creating :politics:, along with the hulking endevour of logistics, whilst the majority of people just want to ride bikes, so they follow, there is no room for people who are not leading or following and simply put a good alliance leader, or the like, deserves to be the one in the biggest ship, etc, he/she is afterall one of the writers of the game people decide to immerse themselves in and go along with /longsentence. Whilst having a large ego isn't always a bad thing is does have the effect of magnifying a persons character and all the crap that comes with them, and people with large egos naturally seek authority, titles, status, etc...

not really sure what i'm trying to say

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And what happens to leading by example? While the leader enjoys flying the epeen wagon the drones remain flying pap over and over again..in some cases scrambling to buy the "discounted" ships ever-so-kindly provided by same? Conflict of interest there eh?

Lets see how many leaders will step up and say they DESERVE things shall we?

The ability to lead is native...not usually something taught (except for how to apply it). And the respect that comes with it is earned...not deserved.

Absolute power-corrupts absolutely.

And ole Blood 'n Guts was no politician by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally by: Jonis Sinmaker

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Straightforward answer

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Originally by: Spoon Thumb

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Do many corps have a "glass hangar" setup? That is where every member of corp can view/query every hangar corp has, just not take what they're not allowed?

That way there is no hiding stuff from members. (Funnily enough my current corp doesn't. Wondering if to change that)

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Originally by: Spoon Thumb

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Do many corps have a "glass hangar" setup? That is where every member of corp can view/query every hangar corp has, just not take what they're not allowed?

That way there is no hiding stuff from members. (Funnily enough my current corp doesn't. Wondering if to change that)

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Originally by: Cipher7

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There is a section of the 0.0 population which exploits the other 10% who live there.

The average 0.0 leader knows nothing about casual gameplay. He barely knows of the existance of carefree ratting. He doesn't know how much the average joe makes from rats.

Regular alliance leader is hauling on his own time, the responsibility he was graciously allowed to bear by the average joes.

Regular alliance leader doesn't know how much fun his members have. He figures since he lives in 0.0 he must be a mover and a shaker.

He doesn't understand that he's actually a workslave living for someone else's entertainment.

Average joe flies a battleship, regular alliance leader aint never gonna have time for one unless he hauls nonstop for the next 2 years.

Regular alliance leader routinely comes to the forums and complains about empire dwellers. Those damn cheapskates. Why should they be able to get the fun without the logistics?

Why shouldn't they have to refuel POS'es daily and pay fuel costs like him?

Why shouldn't they be at the average joe's beck and call to do this and do that?

Why shouldn't they have to haul all their t2 mods from 50j away through gatecamps?

Why shouldn't they get bullied by the average joes for not being available on MSN on Thursday at 4am?

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Originally by: Zorlag

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Of course the Goonfleet leaders skim off Goonfleet taxes and exploit the work of the average goon. I'd be worried if they didn't. Likewise, I'd rather shoot myself than deal with actually running an internet personal space station in an internet video game or manage reactions of internet moon internet mining, so it all works out just fine.

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Originally by: Riho

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yes there is alot of isk that goes to the pockets of leader...

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Originally by: pershphanie

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Edited by: pershphanie on 03/03/2008 11:02:26

Originally by: Riho

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yes there is alot of isk that goes to the pockets of leader...

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Myth IMO. Alliance leaders have ACCESS to large sums of isk. This doesnt mean they end up with large sums of personal wealth. I'd guess it's more common for alliance leaders to dump most of their personal isk into an alliance than profit from their membership.

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Originally by: Slinger Salvo

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Questions for the OP:

1) Although I agree that the average 0.0 dweller is completely ignorant of certain aspects of how 0.0 alliances operate/make vast amounts of ISK from daily operations for a few select people at the top... how on earth could you think that this was something worth bringing up in CAOD considering that a) lots of alliance members are just there to play the game and have no desire to engage in running a 0.0 empire, and b) the structure of these alliances are, like everything else in life, geared to reward those who control and direct the enterprise?

2) As I recall, the CEO of Veto (Verone) is widely rumored to have one of the fattest personal wallets in EVE: somewhere in the neighbourhood of around 100b+ ISK. That's a lot of walking-around money for one man... so if low sec pirate corps (or even empire-based corps) were any less corrupt and focused on rewarding those at the top of the heirarchy... why does the average Veto pirate struggle to turn a profit from ransoms while the fat cats at the top live large and casually chat about maybe buying a Veto titan some day and tooling around the universe in it?

Face it m8... if anyone in your corp was gonna drive the big station wagon, it would be your boss... just like my boss at work drives the 2008 Caddy while I'm stuck with the used BMW from 1994.

Silly topic really. It's like bringing up a taboo subject that isn't really taboo because people talk about this kind of thing every day. It came as no surprise to me when I saw a BoB director auctioning off Serenity Steele around a year ago, even though the ISS routinely complained about BoB fleets coming the Marginis area, picking fights with the ISSN and generally disrupting business.

I'll take the pink pill with the skull stamp on it, thanks much.

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Originally by: Morris Falter

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For groups and individuals who have already decided to live in 0.0, empire is a bizarre and seemingly different game to the one we play. We are forced, through the ******** sovereignty system, to be in alliance if we wish to secure space. We are forced, through the manipulation of individuals to play a metagame based on shifting powerblocs, which the servers are unable to support in any meaningful or satisfactory way. This means, very long time investments for little in meaningful game experiences, once you've got past the initial excitement in being in a 500+ local engagement (if it holds).

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Treading on dangerous ground-encouraging revolution everywhere . And taking the red pill of course.

Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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A couple answers:

1-I bring this thread to CAOD because it is worth discussing and CAOD is the appropriate place to do so. Your statement:

"the structure of these alliances are, like everything else in life, geared to reward those who control and direct the enterprise?"

....is one of the reasons why I chose to do so.

2-Sure Verone has a nice plump wallet. NONE of which came from my or my fellow Veto pilots less plump wallets. And I also say that a quick perusal of our killboard would reveal the vast majority of Veto pilots fly very nice T2 ships. Having said that outlaw piracy can be difficult to sustain when newer pilots arrive and we all do our best to help them out in a variety of ways. All one has to do is ask. But noone gets a free ride.

What Verone buys ain't my business. It's HIS ISK alone. And hey...I'm a Minmatar pilot anyway. I am quite happy flying my 1969 Impala SS with primer paint job and shiny Crager wheels to his Rolls Royce.

Enjoy the pink pill.

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Quote:

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2-Sure Verone has a nice plump wallet. NONE of which came from my or my fellow Veto pilots less plump wallets.

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Originally by: Slinger Salvo

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So... Verone being both the richest member of Veto and the CEO has nothing to do with the fact that he has a well-respected and well-trained fighting force that will follow any deployment or combat command he issues and provide US with a framework for FUN FUN FUN .

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Originally by: Fitz Chivalry

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However, this only applies to smaller alliance and corps I can imagine in the really large ones, epsecially those with loads of farmers in them, the leadership must cream off stupid amounts of isk.

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Originally by: RuleoftheNone

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So... Verone being both the richest member of Veto and the CEO has nothing to do with the fact that he has a well-respected and well-trained fighting force that will follow any deployment or combat command he issues and provide US with a framework for FUN FUN FUN.

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Originally by: Slinger Salvo

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So... Alliance Leader X being both the richest member of X Alliance has nothing to do with the fact that he has a well-respected and well-trained fighting force that will follow any deployment or combat command he issues to provide X Alliance Members with a framework for FUN FUN FUN.

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Originally by: Slinger Salvo

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So... Alliance Leader X has a possibly well-respected and possibly well-trained BLOB that will follow any deployment or combat command he issues NO MATTER HOW SILLY OR POORLY LED to provide X Alliance Members with a framework for LAG LAG LAG while at the same time enriching himself and cronies from the sweat of thier brow and demanding continual scut work equal to mopping floors in McDonalds

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Originally by: Plave Okice

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major

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Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 03/03/2008 12:46:33

Originally by: Morris Falter

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For groups and individuals who have already decided to live in 0.0, empire is a bizarre and seemingly different game to the one we play. We are forced, through the ******** sovereignty system, to be in alliance if we wish to secure space. We are forced, through the manipulation of individuals to play a metagame based on shifting powerblocs, which the servers are unable to support in any meaningful or satisfactory way. This means, very long time investments for little in meaningful game experiences, once you've got past the initial excitement in being in a 500+ local engagement (if it holds).

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Ahhh....Morris. I was worried you might steal my revolutionary thunder but you were kind enough to be gentle about it. You did hit one of my motivations with the bit of your statement I highlighted. Nice post. Perhaps being named AAA you may appreciate the next bit:

Treading on dangerous ground-encouraging revolution everywhere . And taking the red pill of course.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Mild shot at CCP incoming (OOG apologies....but needs saying):

You have created and encouraged the current state of affairs by implementing sov, silly teleportation devices (jump bridges), cyno jammers, and an entire EvE-wide service industry based soley around POS's. And it would appear that there are no real means to fix this in a realistic fashion within the current game technology available.
And having the Planck stabilizer failure justification is getting old.

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Originally by: Morris Falter

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[0.0 vs. Empire risk/reward]

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Originally by: isdisco3

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I really liked the post from the guy talking about why it is that 0.0, as a philosophical tabula rasa, lends itself to artistocratic, feudal-style developments. And even more interesting when you apply more of history's lessons.

For example, what brought about the end of feudalism? Obviously this is not a simple, one-line answer that has many facets, but many would argue the development of the merchant and trading classes was a prime mover in this political shift. Private individuals, traders, found themselves to be holders of fortunes that could rival and even surpass the wealth of the feudal states and kings from which they hailed. And money, as we all know, is power. They were usually Italian (I'm talking the Medici and those types of families), which interestingly enough operated more like private city-states at the time as opposed to large feudal empires. They had tons and tons of money, and loaned their money at interest to those whose political ideas they found in concert with their own. As a result, they controlled the supply of money, and they controlled the actions of empires.

So, how does this apply to eve?

I would say that, if we accept 0.0's political development as a microchasm of human political history (which is definitely a debatable point on its own), we can say that the number of private individuals with the isk to rival that of major corps in 0.0 are very few. In short, we don't have the emerging rich-trader class that would rival the corps (who are the "feudal states" in this rather questionable metaphor that I am probably taking too far). What solves this problem? More people in 0.0, doing more trades, taking advantage of one of the more balkanized regions to start their business and then using their wallets to wield influence over the others.

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Originally by: Embrace MyHate

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The belter working man

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Originally by: isdisco3

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I really liked the post from the guy talking about why it is that 0.0, as a philosophical tabula rasa, lends itself to artistocratic, feudal-style developments. And even more interesting when you apply more of history's lessons.

<Snip>
In short, we don't have the emerging rich-trader class that would rival the corps (who are the "feudal states" in this rather questionable metaphor that I am probably taking too far). What solves this problem? More people in 0.0, doing more trades, taking advantage of one of the more balkanized regions to start their business and then using their wallets to wield influence over the others.

<snip>
/quote]

The skills are available. Currently, the stable, hi-volume of cheap empire goods prevents market manipulation from being effective. Should anything change the mineral price points and volume enough to render the hi-sec market inefficient, traders will be able to branch out into 0.0 regional market manipulation as a primary source of profit. If/when that occurs the independent merchant class will have the opportunity to reduce the sprawling 0.0 alliances to paupers. - It's why feudalism died. The endless need to arm and feed soldiers without a stable market to provide the economic support necessary.. made owning land very expensive.

Originally by: Embrace MyHate

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Well in reply to the general forum topic. I have been a peon and will always most likely be a peon. on several characters not just this noobly one. the fact of the matter is, i dont play 8 hours a day and have time to lead, i dont have the connections or the fing motivation. i am perfectly fine ratting in belts to get my isk and wasting it to pvp where ever i am needed. I read the COAD forums sonetimes because the wars are quite interesting and all of us little peons play a part in it. but telling us to question our leadership and make them accountable or to even revolt is just... ROFL this is a video game man i play to have fun, not to feed my kids. i guess all in all it depends on how serious you are, but i dont think any of us " peons " give a **** because were just having a good ol time killin those triple 1.8 spawns.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Hmmm...looks like quite a few folks have already spared at least a cursory glance at this thread. Ain't it funny...and possibly telling-about who has NOT responded versus those that actually have?

Like a ripple in the pond-the status quo can be questioned one pilot at a time. The same goes for change.

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Originally by: Shinigami

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I think things would be much different if all members were able to see exactly where their taxes and donations are going. I'm sure there are a lot (at least 75%) of CEOs and directors abusing corp/alliance funds. That goes for empire corps and alliances too.

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Originally by: Stela'Artois

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The working gal (?) speaks....but....

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Originally by: Orree

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I suppose it's entirely possible that there are those alliances out there for which these allegations might be true.

With regard to those alliances I'm familiar with, I would say very little of what is quoted in the OP is true. Alliance leaders flying titans are most likely doing it on their own dime or as part of the active and open cooperation of various pilots (or corps) within an alliance. The idea that is generally true that alliance leaders get rich off the back of rank-and-file pilots is simply preposterous, in my view. If it were as bad as the quoted "information" would have you believe, I can't imagine anyone would bother to join an alliance.

For alliances with which I am familiar, "moon mining" helps pay the the overhead of holding sovereignty, but not much else. It, of course, depends upon how rich in moons an alliance's region is.

Refine taxes? I don't know for sure about other alliances, but in RAWR, the only ones refining in our space are RAWR pilots and there is a very small refine tax which can be lifted completely upon request and the availability of a director from the owning corp of the refining station.

In my experience, alliance leaders are often spending their own ISK for the betterment of their alliance, not getting rich off their alliance mates.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Stela'Artois

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The working gal (?) speaks....but....

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Why...if your alliance is capable of doing so-are they not paying YOU to participate on combat ops, industrial ops, and the like? Especially as they need you as a number far more than you need them.

Why allow contemporary models corrupt your ingame future? Ok...corrupt is a harsh word. But I can't think of a less harsh word atm .

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Originally by: Stela'Artois

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Working girl speaks well.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 05/03/2008 02:25:16

Originally by: Stela'Artois

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Working girl speaks well.

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Trouble is...you seem to be the exception....not the rule. Nice post nonetheless and point taken.

Thing is...sounds as if your alliance/corp/individual relationship is pretty laissez-faire in terms of demands on your time. Benevolent dictatorship or Sparta/city-state model? Something else?

**EDIT**And is it worth your effort to defend it? Or would it fold and bail if put under pressure?

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 05/03/2008 07:30:21

If a leader is abusive, exploitative, and the like, its up to them to either change it or leave.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 05/03/2008 07:30:21

If a leader is abusive, exploitative, and the like, its up to them to either change it or leave.

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And there lies part of the problem. How would the average joe even be aware without even knowing what questions to ask...or what to look for. Which of course leads to breaking the herd mentality depriving the elite leeches of their means of control.

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Originally by: Taz Devlin

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 05/03/2008 07:30:21

If a leader is abusive, exploitative, and the like, its up to them to either change it or leave.

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And there lies part of the problem. How would the average joe even be aware without even knowing what questions to ask...or what to look for. Which of course leads to breaking the herd mentality depriving the elite leeches of their means of control.

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I'm not entirely sure what your agenda is, but I'm pretty sure it does not contain genuine concern for the average 0.0 dweller.

I've been in 0.0 for 4 years now and I can honestly say that you are talking out of your ass and making asinine presumptions here.

The Isk goes to supply tools for the trade mate.

When you understand the trade, then ask relevant questions. Untill then, study.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: Orree

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I suppose it's entirely possible that there are those alliances out there for which these allegations might be true.

With regard to those alliances I'm familiar with, I would say very little of what is quoted in the OP is true. Alliance leaders flying titans are most likely doing it on their own dime or as part of the active and open cooperation of various pilots (or corps) within an alliance. The idea that is generally true that alliance leaders get rich off the back of rank-and-file pilots is simply preposterous, in my view. If it were as bad as the quoted "information" would have you believe, I can't imagine anyone would bother to join an alliance.

For alliances with which I am familiar, "moon mining" helps pay the the overhead of holding sovereignty, but not much else. It, of course, depends upon how rich in moons an alliance's region is.

Refine taxes? I don't know for sure about other alliances, but in RAWR, the only ones refining in our space are RAWR pilots and there is a very small refine tax which can be lifted completely upon request and the availability of a director from the owning corp of the refining station.

In my experience, alliance leaders are often spending their own ISK for the betterment of their alliance, not getting rich off their alliance mates.

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Can you define "better"? And how do you know if thats really the case? Until its too late of course.

And the Titan reference in the OP is just that-a reference. Please insert epeen of choice as required. Double points if lost with embarassing fittings and a silly engagement at a cost shared by the common pilot.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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My agenda? None really...aside from encouraging thoughtful revolution. And the agenda...such as it is...applies to all space.

As for the rest-well-its your rather arrogant eve-elitist sounding sort I'm pleased to make squirm a bit if I can. I won't settle for what is basically "stfu noob....play my way or the highway and what do you know anyway"...and neither should anyone else. I would have thought a representative of a collective called "Against All Authorities" would not be adverse to a few questions either .

If you wish to refute my statements-do so. Or not. And your colleague Morris was far more pleasant too.

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