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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/03/2008 14:27:12 Eagles getting a 5th, good, was underpowered since T2 ammo got nerfed, and before that when HP was boosted.
But what about the muninn? Did it ever get boosted? Was it effective even before HP was boosted (predating T2 ammo nerf)?
Eagle just seems to get the attn b/c every pilot has a caldari alt. But the minnies and their cruiser sniper needs some lovin too!
So, lets discuss what this bird needs!
Quote: Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level
Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level
Even with a double damage bonus the cruiser is pretty weak. 4x gyro's and republic fleet only gets its 455dps, with a 2300 alpha. Using t2 ammo nerfs the guns tracking, even with the trackign bonus.
IF anything, artillery needs a major look over. ----------------- Friends Forever
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:45:00 -
[2]
It took the Dev's over 4 year's to Fix the typhoon witch i still think should of been given a 5/5 weapon lay out.
The fact is by the time they do ever bother to fix the ship where all going to be flying titans but yes it needs a little love more PG and Cpu would be nice. Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:51:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Twin blade It took the Dev's over 4 year's to Fix the typhoon witch i still think should of been given a 5/5 weapon lay out.
The fact is by the time they do ever bother to fix the ship where all going to be flying titans but yes it needs a little love more PG and Cpu would be nice.
It can fit crap just fine...well, I dont run with any ab/mwd so Its fine for me. I tink the problem is with arty's. ----------------- Friends Forever
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:24:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 15:25:06 What exactly is wrong with the muninn?
Ok so arty might not perform exactly as good as other long range weaponry. But doesnt need cap. Ok so it might not be so important on arty but on AC it sure is. You cant have best of both worlds. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:27:00 -
[5]
Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:30:00 -
[6]
Maybe they should nerf eagle -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate Rare Faction
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 15:25:06 What exactly is wrong with the muninn?
Ok so arty might not perform exactly as good as other long range weaponry. But doesnt need cap. Ok so it might not be so important on arty but on AC it sure is. You cant have best of both worlds.
ACs not using capacitor already have penalties to balance this. They do significantly less DPS than other turrets raw, which is further reduced by working in falloff both due to misses and a reduction in hit-quality. The ability to truly switch damage types like missiles can is also a misconception, asides from explosive, em/therm/kin only make up about half of the damage on an ammo type whilst sharing another. The actual changes are very minor. Explosive and Kinetic are also the first two resistances plugged in PvP as well.
It's not all sunshine and lollipops as you make it out to be.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:41:00 -
[8]
Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 15:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches.
And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 16:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches.
And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol?
Do you have numbers to back this up or not? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 16:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches.
And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol?
Do you have numbers to back this up or not?
I didn't even say the Muninn needed a boost. But you're already ruining what could-be a productive thread.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:01:00 -
[12]
Using tremor, the muninn with hac 5 AND 2x optimal rigs gets 101km optimal with 1100 alpha and 330 dps.
With republic fleet EMP it gets a 29km optimal, 2200 alpha and 450 dps.
What does the eagle get? ----------------- Friends Forever
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Backpack Boy
9omH
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:04:00 -
[13]
Muninn is fine, I can fit as well as 5 720mm IIs, 2 heavy launcher IIs.
The only thing arty is lacking is the range.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:25:00 -
[14]
I'd say damage too. Its its alpha strike taht should be uber. Up the damage mod and lower the RoF imho. ----------------- Friends Forever
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Waxau
The Fated Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
Bar from the difference in race, tank, and weapon type. Other than that, yeah...eagle is far better.
Not all ships are the same dude, and all your arguements ever point to is no variation.
The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn, as its a different race, with different speccing.
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Waxau The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a lie.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
Muninn has no advantages over Eagle? Speed? Agility? Resists? Capless weapons?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Waxau
Bar from the difference in race, tank, and weapon type. Other than that, yeah...eagle is far better.
Not all ships are the same dude, and all your arguements ever point to is no variation.
The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn, as its a different race, with different speccing.
In the role of anti-support the eagle is better, not "different", just plain better.
The Zealot is different from the Muninn, it trades alpha for tracking. The Eagle is not different, its just better.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Using tremor, the muninn with hac 5 AND 2x optimal rigs gets 101km optimal with 1100 alpha and 330 dps.
With republic fleet EMP it gets a 29km optimal, 2200 alpha and 450 dps.
What does the eagle get?
Those numbers are wrong for the Muninn, it gets 223 dps at that range.
242 DPS at 95km with better tracking than the Muninn
The Muninn and Zealot are currently balanced on sisi as anti-support ships*. The eagle rapes them both.
*This assumes that the current bug in optimal range rigs is fixed. As the Zealot is able to take advantage of its slot advantage even farther than it currently is. This makes it far more powerful than it ought to be compared to the Muninn in a long range fit.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:16:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
Muninn has no advantages over Eagle? Speed? Agility? Resists? Capless weapons?
Irrelevent for anti-support work.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:18:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:17:56 ed: whoops
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:26:00 -
[21]
From memory the eagle pumps out a alpha of 600 compared the the muinns 1100, with the muinns bonus to ROF i'd say you'd have more chance taking out enemy support quicker than the eagle.
The real problem the muinn has is with the new zealot, very similar bonus's and stats.
The eagles, alot slower, has a slower lock time, and a ****** sig.
Zealot on the other hand matches (well slightly outclasses) the muinn very close, also the slot layout is fairly similar, except the zealot having alot more sniper optimal 2 extra lows, compared to the muinns 2 launchers +25mb drone bay.
Both the zealot and the muinn benifit from the resist changes fairly equally.
I suppose you could argue for changing the muinns rof to a second damage bonus (+5% dam +10% optim / +5%dam +7.5%track) to lose a bit of dps but larger bursts of damage. Although i think it be a bit random if you'd actually gain any kills.
The opposite could be applied to the zealot. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Waxau
The Fated Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:31:00 -
[22]
Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent.
Honestly..
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Waxau Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent.
Honestly..
Wait? I'm a minmatar whiner now?
Anyway, to respond to this assault with some usefull info. My arguments don't change because the situation hasnt changed from what was previously being argued.
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Waxau
The Fated Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Waxau Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent.
Honestly..
Wait? I'm a minmatar whiner now?
Anyway, to respond to this assault with some usefull info. My arguments don't change because the situation hasnt changed from what was previously being argued.
any evolving in arguements and points, you never catch on to. You just sit there, with the same arguement, and never develop it further.
The eagle lacks alphastrike. It also lacks damage. EFT may tell you the muninn is just as bad etc, but it doesnt take into tactics and such. Eve is not just an 'on-paper' game. The hawk if you recall was supposed to be a 'minicerb' when the boost for it came through. It didnt. It sucks.
Fit a muninn with autocannons, and it far excells the eagle. Fit it with long range arties, and yeah - It may not have the range. But it has greater alpha, and more versatility.
But im sure you'll post your arguement again.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:54:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:58:39 Yea, but see, it doesnt lack damage. The Muninn as an anti-support ship is doing 192 DPS or so. The Eagle is now doing 240 DPS or so at the Muninns optimal range. The Muninn is going to have an alpha of some 1250 damage, the Eagle only 850. But the difference is more than made up by the fact that the Eagle is doing 25% more dps.
Now, you might say "but the eagle doesnt do 240 dps at its farthest optimal range" and that would be correct. But it is also irrelevent, becasue if you are making the choice for less damage and more range then you must be accepting that the higher range is worth more than the lower damage. And then you have both options on the Eagle where you only have the one option on the Muninn.
But yea, those AC muninns sure are awesome... I know ill fly them instead of an AC vagabond which has an extra med slot and a falloff boost, that is totally smart! God, why didn't i think of this before waxau!!
So basicially you are saying that the Muninns role is to be "only as good as the eagle, maybe, at its optimal range, with less options, or be a worse vagabond?
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Waxau The eagle lacks alphastrike. It also lacks damage.
It helps if you compare at equivalent ranges. Try doing what most actual eagle pilots do and put in lower-range faction ammo. People shy away from spike because of the tracking penalty. At ~100km (CN Thor), the eagle does exactly the same DPS as the muninn, with the muninn doing double the alpha. However the eagle locks further, locks faster and has amost 4x the tracking. This is using the current numbers. Add 25% to all those damage figures for the new figures.
It can then scale up that ammo towards spike, allowing it the versatility to operate at normal antisupport ranges, or to operate way out at 200km with approximately the same effectiveness.
So, your argument about it doing lower damage is wrong, and your argument about it having lower versatility is plain wrong.
And also. Lol @ your autocannon argument. Try fitting a muninn to have an effective AC setup. See what happens.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:03:00 -
[27]
I don't know why people bother arguing with Goumindong anymore.
It's like arguing with the backside of an elephant suffering from explosive diarrhea
--------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Twin blade
Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:11:00 -
[28]
The Eagle might lack the burst damage but with a much higher ROF means that its most likey to get another volly or two and so most likey get the kill.
The muninn on the other hand will most likey get 1 volly if that fails to kill the enemy will most likey warp off befor you can fire another volly.
Yes the muninn make's a nice AC ship but same can be said about the eagle been a good blaster boat with the 100% range bonus.
I guess the muninn has the bonus of been able to defend it self better in close range given how it can still load 2 lancher's and drone's than the eagle. Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
Riddick Valer
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:12:00 -
[29]
Assuming that the Muninn has an alpha of 1250, and the Eagle has an alpha of 850, lets look at the following situation.
The eagle shoots about every 4.5 seconds. The Munnin about every 8.5 seconds.
0 sec. Eagle 850 Muninn 1250 4.5 Sec Eagle 1700 Muninn 1250 8.5 Sec Eagle 1700 Munnin 2500 9 Sec Eagle 2550 Muninn 2500 13.5 Sec Eagle 3400 Muninn 2500 17 Sec Eagle 3400 Muninn 3750 18 Sec Eagle 4250 Muninn 3750
ships with 0 to 850, 1250 to 1700, 2500 to 3400, and 3750 to 4250 Effective hitpoints get killed by the eagle first. 850 to 1250, 1700 to 2500, and 3400 to 3750 get killed by the muninn first.
But which ship can actually kill those attackers if they manage to close range (which most fast moving support can do fairly quickly). Also, if operating in groups, the muninns have a much better chance of insta-popping approaching ships, as 2 muninns put down 2500 damage. That would take 3 eagles to match the alpha.
Alpha is important.
Secondly, Not every ship needs to be the same as every other ship. Its ok to have ships be better in 1 role. As specialized anti-support, the eagle is probably the best. But, doesn't the Muninn have some abilities in other roles that the eagle can't match? The eagle, like most Caldari ships, is built to be specialized. It lacks all versatility. Balance ships across all their uses, not just in one specific area.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:18:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:21:17 Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:18:32 none of them can kill anything that closes, you simply get to a point where you can hit them again by either warping out and warping back in, or arranging yourself at a point where the enemy will not close to your location.
In this instance the Muninn doesnt really have any versitility over the Eagle. As an anti-support ship it needs a specific advantage against the Eagle. Which it had when the eagle only had 4 turrets.
ed: and if this is the advantage of the Muninn then what role is it supposed to fill?
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