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If the Eagle is getting a boost, what about the Muninn?

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Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.02 14:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/03/2008 14:27:12 Eagles getting a 5th, good, was underpowered since T2 ammo got nerfed, and before that when HP was boosted. But what about the muninn? Did it ever get boosted? Was it effective even before HP was boosted (predating T2 ammo nerf)? Eagle just seems to get the attn b/c every pilot has a caldari alt. But the minnies and their cruiser sniper needs some lovin too! So, lets discuss what this bird needs! Quote: Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level Even with a double damage bonus the cruiser is pretty weak. 4x gyro's and republic fleet only gets its 455dps, with a 2300 alpha. Using t2 ammo nerfs the guns tracking, even with the trackign bonus. IF anything, artillery needs a major look over. ----------------- Friends Forever
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.03.02 14:45:00 - [2] It took the Dev's over 4 year's to Fix the typhoon witch i still think should of been given a 5/5 weapon lay out. The fact is by the time they do ever bother to fix the ship where all going to be flying titans but yes it needs a little love more PG and Cpu would be nice. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.02 14:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Twin blade It took the Dev's over 4 year's to Fix the typhoon witch i still think should of been given a 5/5 weapon lay out. The fact is by the time they do ever bother to fix the ship where all going to be flying titans but yes it needs a little love more PG and Cpu would be nice. It can fit crap just fine...well, I dont run with any ab/mwd so Its fine for me. I tink the problem is with arty's. ----------------- Friends Forever
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:24:00 - [4] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 15:25:06 What exactly is wrong with the muninn? Ok so arty might not perform exactly as good as other long range weaponry. But doesnt need cap. Ok so it might not be so important on arty but on AC it sure is. You cant have best of both worlds. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:27:00 - [5] Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:30:00 - [6] Maybe they should nerf eagle -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate Rare Faction	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 15:25:06 What exactly is wrong with the muninn? Ok so arty might not perform exactly as good as other long range weaponry. But doesnt need cap. Ok so it might not be so important on arty but on AC it sure is. You cant have best of both worlds. ACs not using capacitor already have penalties to balance this. They do significantly less DPS than other turrets raw, which is further reduced by working in falloff both due to misses and a reduction in hit-quality. The ability to truly switch damage types like missiles can is also a misconception, asides from explosive, em/therm/kin only make up about half of the damage on an ammo type whilst sharing another. The actual changes are very minor. Explosive and Kinetic are also the first two resistances plugged in PvP as well. It's not all sunshine and lollipops as you make it out to be.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:41:00 - [8] Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches. And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.02 16:04:00 - [10] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches. And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol? Do you have numbers to back this up or not? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.02 16:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm can we get any kind of numbers? I mean this thread is based on hunches. And you're amarr trolling in a minmatar thread. Is JoJo your idol? Do you have numbers to back this up or not? I didn't even say the Muninn needed a boost. But you're already ruining what could-be a productive thread.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.02 17:01:00 - [12] Using tremor, the muninn with hac 5 AND 2x optimal rigs gets 101km optimal with 1100 alpha and 330 dps. With republic fleet EMP it gets a 29km optimal, 2200 alpha and 450 dps. What does the eagle get? ----------------- Friends Forever
Backpack Boy 9omH	Posted - 2008.03.02 17:04:00 - [13] Muninn is fine, I can fit as well as 5 720mm IIs, 2 heavy launcher IIs. The only thing arty is lacking is the range.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.02 17:25:00 - [14] I'd say damage too. Its its alpha strike taht should be uber. Up the damage mod and lower the RoF imho. ----------------- Friends Forever
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.02 17:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version. Bar from the difference in race, tank, and weapon type. Other than that, yeah...eagle is far better. Not all ships are the same dude, and all your arguements ever point to is no variation. The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn, as its a different race, with different speccing.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Waxau The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a lie.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version. Muninn has no advantages over Eagle? Speed? Agility? Resists? Capless weapons? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Waxau Bar from the difference in race, tank, and weapon type. Other than that, yeah...eagle is far better. Not all ships are the same dude, and all your arguements ever point to is no variation. The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn, as its a different race, with different speccing. In the role of anti-support the eagle is better, not "different", just plain better. The Zealot is different from the Muninn, it trades alpha for tracking. The Eagle is not different, its just better. Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Using tremor, the muninn with hac 5 AND 2x optimal rigs gets 101km optimal with 1100 alpha and 330 dps. With republic fleet EMP it gets a 29km optimal, 2200 alpha and 450 dps. What does the eagle get? Those numbers are wrong for the Muninn, it gets 223 dps at that range. 242 DPS at 95km with better tracking than the Muninn The Muninn and Zealot are currently balanced on sisi as anti-support ships. The eagle rapes them both. This assumes that the current bug in optimal range rigs is fixed. As the Zealot is able to take advantage of its slot advantage even farther than it currently is. This makes it far more powerful than it ought to be compared to the Muninn in a long range fit.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version. Muninn has no advantages over Eagle? Speed? Agility? Resists? Capless weapons? Irrelevent for anti-support work.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:18:00 - [20] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:17:56 ed: whoops
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:26:00 - [21] From memory the eagle pumps out a alpha of 600 compared the the muinns 1100, with the muinns bonus to ROF i'd say you'd have more chance taking out enemy support quicker than the eagle. The real problem the muinn has is with the new zealot, very similar bonus's and stats. The eagles, alot slower, has a slower lock time, and a ****** sig. Zealot on the other hand matches (well slightly outclasses) the muinn very close, also the slot layout is fairly similar, except the zealot having alot more sniper optimal 2 extra lows, compared to the muinns 2 launchers +25mb drone bay. Both the zealot and the muinn benifit from the resist changes fairly equally. I suppose you could argue for changing the muinns rof to a second damage bonus (+5% dam +10% optim / +5%dam +7.5%track) to lose a bit of dps but larger bursts of damage. Although i think it be a bit random if you'd actually gain any kills. The opposite could be applied to the zealot. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:31:00 - [22] Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent. Honestly..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Waxau Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent. Honestly.. Wait? I'm a minmatar whiner now? Anyway, to respond to this assault with some usefull info. My arguments don't change because the situation hasnt changed from what was previously being argued.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Waxau Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent. Honestly.. Wait? I'm a minmatar whiner now? Anyway, to respond to this assault with some usefull info. My arguments don't change because the situation hasnt changed from what was previously being argued. any evolving in arguements and points, you never catch on to. You just sit there, with the same arguement, and never develop it further. The eagle lacks alphastrike. It also lacks damage. EFT may tell you the muninn is just as bad etc, but it doesnt take into tactics and such. Eve is not just an 'on-paper' game. The hawk if you recall was supposed to be a 'minicerb' when the boost for it came through. It didnt. It sucks. Fit a muninn with autocannons, and it far excells the eagle. Fit it with long range arties, and yeah - It may not have the range. But it has greater alpha, and more versatility. But im sure you'll post your arguement again.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:54:00 - [25] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:58:39 Yea, but see, it doesnt lack damage. The Muninn as an anti-support ship is doing 192 DPS or so. The Eagle is now doing 240 DPS or so at the Muninns optimal range. The Muninn is going to have an alpha of some 1250 damage, the Eagle only 850. But the difference is more than made up by the fact that the Eagle is doing 25% more dps. Now, you might say "but the eagle doesnt do 240 dps at its farthest optimal range" and that would be correct. But it is also irrelevent, becasue if you are making the choice for less damage and more range then you must be accepting that the higher range is worth more than the lower damage. And then you have both options on the Eagle where you only have the one option on the Muninn. But yea, those AC muninns sure are awesome... I know ill fly them instead of an AC vagabond which has an extra med slot and a falloff boost, that is totally smart! God, why didn't i think of this before waxau!! So basicially you are saying that the Muninns role is to be "only as good as the eagle, maybe, at its optimal range, with less options, or be a worse vagabond?
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Waxau The eagle lacks alphastrike. It also lacks damage. It helps if you compare at equivalent ranges. Try doing what most actual eagle pilots do and put in lower-range faction ammo. People shy away from spike because of the tracking penalty. At ~100km (CN Thor), the eagle does exactly the same DPS as the muninn, with the muninn doing double the alpha. However the eagle locks further, locks faster and has amost 4x the tracking. This is using the current numbers. Add 25% to all those damage figures for the new figures. It can then scale up that ammo towards spike, allowing it the versatility to operate at normal antisupport ranges, or to operate way out at 200km with approximately the same effectiveness. So, your argument about it doing lower damage is wrong, and your argument about it having lower versatility is plain wrong. And also. Lol @ your autocannon argument. Try fitting a muninn to have an effective AC setup. See what happens.
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:03:00 - [27] I don't know why people bother arguing with Goumindong anymore. It's like arguing with the backside of an elephant suffering from explosive diarrhea --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:11:00 - [28] The Eagle might lack the burst damage but with a much higher ROF means that its most likey to get another volly or two and so most likey get the kill. The muninn on the other hand will most likey get 1 volly if that fails to kill the enemy will most likey warp off befor you can fire another volly. Yes the muninn make's a nice AC ship but same can be said about the eagle been a good blaster boat with the 100% range bonus. I guess the muninn has the bonus of been able to defend it self better in close range given how it can still load 2 lancher's and drone's than the eagle. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:12:00 - [29] Assuming that the Muninn has an alpha of 1250, and the Eagle has an alpha of 850, lets look at the following situation. The eagle shoots about every 4.5 seconds. The Munnin about every 8.5 seconds. 0 sec. Eagle 850 Muninn 1250 4.5 Sec Eagle 1700 Muninn 1250 8.5 Sec Eagle 1700 Munnin 2500 9 Sec Eagle 2550 Muninn 2500 13.5 Sec Eagle 3400 Muninn 2500 17 Sec Eagle 3400 Muninn 3750 18 Sec Eagle 4250 Muninn 3750 ships with 0 to 850, 1250 to 1700, 2500 to 3400, and 3750 to 4250 Effective hitpoints get killed by the eagle first. 850 to 1250, 1700 to 2500, and 3400 to 3750 get killed by the muninn first. But which ship can actually kill those attackers if they manage to close range (which most fast moving support can do fairly quickly). Also, if operating in groups, the muninns have a much better chance of insta-popping approaching ships, as 2 muninns put down 2500 damage. That would take 3 eagles to match the alpha. Alpha is important. Secondly, Not every ship needs to be the same as every other ship. Its ok to have ships be better in 1 role. As specialized anti-support, the eagle is probably the best. But, doesn't the Muninn have some abilities in other roles that the eagle can't match? The eagle, like most Caldari ships, is built to be specialized. It lacks all versatility. Balance ships across all their uses, not just in one specific area.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:21:17 Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:18:32 none of them can kill anything that closes, you simply get to a point where you can hit them again by either warping out and warping back in, or arranging yourself at a point where the enemy will not close to your location. In this instance the Muninn doesnt really have any versitility over the Eagle. As an anti-support ship it needs a specific advantage against the Eagle. Which it had when the eagle only had 4 turrets. ed: and if this is the advantage of the Muninn then what role is it supposed to fill?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:25:00 - [31] Increase damage mod and decrease teh RoF. Same DPS, more arty like alpha damage. ----------------- Friends Forever
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 23:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* Assuming that the Muninn has an alpha of 1250, and the Eagle has an alpha of 850, lets look at the following situation. What ranges are these ? These are the numbers I got with the following set ups. Eagle : 2 SBII's / 2 TC II's / 3 MAGSTAB II's / 1 TE II - 4 250MM II's / 10mn MWDII Munnin: 2 GS II's / 3 TE II's / 2 SB II's / 5 - 720mm II's / 10mn MWD II In a close range ammo scenario with scripts set for speed and tracking. Munnin 2260Alpha / 327DPS at 32km+22 FO / .047 tracking - 820 scan res (faction EMP used) Eagle 910Alpha / 259DPS at 47km+15 FO / .049 tracking - 702 scan res (faction AM used) At a long range for the Munnin, medium range for the Eagle Scenario Munnin 1233Alpha / 178 DPS at 102km+22 FO / .047 tracking - 437 scan res (faction carb lead) Eagle 607Alpha / 173 DPS at 105km+15 FO / .04 tracking - 473 scan res (faction lead) And of course the extreme range eagle Eagle 528Alpha / 150 DPS at 206km+15 FO / .007 tracking - 288 scan res (Spike) I really dont see a situation under 120km where the Eagle is ever better than the Munnin , this also doesnt take into account that the Munnin has a 25m3 dronebay (which arent used for calculations) doesnt use cap for its guns, and the more nimble autocannon Munnin works MUCH MUCH better than a blaster eagle which needs the skill HAC 5 just to outdps its T1 variant the MOA. A 5 250mmII Eagle(if it happens) will also have no grid left for tank OR a MWD, which would make the ship even more 1 dimensional. Regardless a 5 gun Zealot is going to obsolete both ships anyways
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.03 01:33:00 - [33] Eagle getting a 5th turret slot? What about the vulture, will it get 8 hi's and 6 turret slots?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 02:11:00 - [34] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 02:13:29 Originally by: Rastigan bunch of wrong stuff 1. We are working on the new 5 turret eagle, not the current 4 turret eagle. 2. Use faction ammo. Only the eagle has the range to make use of long range t2 ammo. Specificially trade down to thorium for the eagle. A 5 gun zealot will not be obsoleting them both. LOL @ a tank on a long range anti-support cruiser.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 02:47:00 - [35] Originally by: Goumindong 1. We are working on the new 5 turret eagle, not the current 4 turret eagle. Multiply the Eagles damage by 1.25 to compare it to 5 turrets. Quote: edit: God, another fool trumpeting the AC muninn. You should pretty much never need to fly an AC muninn over the vagabond. An armor tanked vagabond is better than an AC muninn. An armor tanked vagabond is better than an AC muninn. Let that sink in for a second for what that means. An AC Muninn is still eleventy billion times a better idea than a blaster Eagle. How is a 5 gun Eagle going to be fit ? I rarely fly Eagles because as it is, its a crappy ship to fly ( I use Vultures instead .)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.03 03:09:00 - [36] imo more problem of weapon system than of ship itself arty is not anymore comparable to rails, it comes in "gimp status" because it is supposed to take advantage of things that don't impact that much the long ranged combat (the ones that where mentioned earlier) for what i see minnie have not anymore good long ranged ships as arty is the turret with: worst dps (by a huge margin), worst range (ok is a close call with lasers :P) and worst tracking... it get alpha but that is not that huge as you are not going to instapop anything bigger than a shuttle and still (a thing that many people tend to forget) the refire doesn't get a reset if i kill a ship nor the battle stop to make you reload after blowing up an enemy boost dps of arty to be between lasers and rails or make it long range and good tracking... that will solve a lot of problem for minnie ships... from the muninn to the nag Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.03.03 03:10:00 - [37] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Increase damage mod and decrease teh RoF. Same DPS, more arty like alpha damage. I like that idea, and with only 10 shots per gun would have slightly more dps over time including reloads. Nothing bad about it. I love locking things with sleipnir and saying "pop" then 3 secs later when the shots fire its "pop".
SirMoric Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.03 03:27:00 - [38] I hear a lot of theoretical stuff in this thread. But does anyone have any experience fighthing in an Eagle, or even better, been up against a Muninn in an Eagle, or the other way around? If the Eagle got an extra turret, it must've been because it needed it? I don't recall many threads whining about the Eagle in the past that it would explain why it got it. Oh, and boost missiles by the way.... seems odd you get almost no damage done when hitting a really fast ship.... on the front. rgds
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.03 04:09:00 - [39] Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 04:10:45 Eagle is going to be comparable in fleet at 100km, getting better as the range gets higher. Muninn will remain better at everything else. Muninns alpha will remain unique and it will retain its use in an anti-support role at sub-120km ranges because of it. Muninn pops support or forces it out alot more effectively than the Eagle does/will after the change at sub 120km. It's clear to me which ship remains more restricted in its use. It makes up for it by being the last word in long range anti-support combat. The muninn on the other hand offers a variable role design. Despite all this Goumindong# idea to give the Eagle 25m3 worth of drone bay was just as acceptable as 5 guns imo. I don't think 5 guns will imbalance the ship class personally, the Eagle still only has a single effective role, its just very good at it now. --------------- you all smell!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:37:00 - [40] Originally by: SirMoric I hear a lot of theoretical stuff in this thread. But does anyone have any experience fighthing in an Eagle, or even better, been up against a Muninn in an Eagle, or the other way around? Yes, and eagles are currently more effective anti-support than Muninns in practice. Especially in practice with high lag. [which makes range more variable increasing the need for long range ammo] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 04:10:45 Eagle is going to be comparable in fleet at 100km, getting better as the range gets higher. Muninn will remain better at everything else. Unfortunatly, "everything else" is a moot when its a specific role taken up by some other ship. If the eagle didnt do enough damage at the end of its range then they could have given it a boost to its DPS out there[ammo specific boost], if the eagle didnt do enough damage at the begining of its range they could have added damage down there[more missiles/drones/ammo specific boost]. As is is though, it totally eclipses the Muninn and Zealot. Originally by: Rastigan Multiply the Eagles damage by 1.25 to compare it to 5 turrets. I did, its why you have a 242 DPS eagle at 95km. [CN thorium] Quote: An AC Muninn is still eleventy billion times a better idea than a blaster Eagle. How is a 5 gun Eagle going to be fit ? I rarely fly Eagles because as it is, its a crappy ship to fly ( I use Vultures instead .) Eleventy billion times zero is still zero. Actually, that just plain isnt true. Blaster eagles do fairly decent dps with huge shield amounts and great relative speed/agility. Since, unlike armor tanked ships they can tank themselves without reducing their agility and speed, they actually make one of the faster and most agile tanked HAC tacklers while puting out respectable DPS. This actually gives them a role over the deimos, where the deimos in order to achieve eagle quality hit points must sacrifice all its agility and speed advantage[1600rt + trimarks]. Its still probably better for an eagle pilot to skill a deimos though. Of course, for the Vagabond there is simply no comparison. Its faster than the Muninn, has a falloff bonus over the Muninn, more agile, has a smaller sig, does nearly as much raw dps and much more real dps[falloff bonus], and has an extra med slot for either tanking or ewar.[This is assuming the utterly ridiculuos armor tanked vagabond which, despite being ridiculous is still better than the AC muninn]. And to top it off no other skill training is required. These things combine to mean that the beagle is probably a better bet than the AC muninn, since there is no close range option on the same skill path as the Eagle and there is a close range option on the same skill path as the Muninn.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:52:00 - [41] Yep, saw this one coming... The Eagle is not overpowered, it's exactly where it should be now that it has 5 guns. Yes, it's better than the Muninn as an anti-support sniper (the Zealot is NOT primarily a sniper, and is not relevant), but that's how it should be. Caldari are the sniper race, and should have the best snipers in the game. Complaining about this is as stupid as complaining that the Vagabond is the best speed HAC in the game. The problem with the Muninn is it doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it an AC boat? No, the Vagabond beats it by far as a fast skirmish ship, and the Hurricane beats it in a slugging match. Is it an artillery sniper? No, it has a terrible slot layout, poor bonuses, and still loses to the Hurricane once cost-effectiveness is considered. Is it a close-range artillery one-shot-cruisers ship? No, the Hurricane wins there again. So the first thing to do before fixing the Muninn is to figure out what it's supposed to be. Until it gets a clearly defined role, trying to balance it makes no sense.
Felix Dzerzhinsky legion of qui Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:59:00 - [42] Originally by: darkmancer I don't know why people bother arguing with Goumindong anymore. It's like arguing with the backside of an elephant suffering from explosive diarrhea They don't argue with him because he is right most of the time. . .I have not seen anyone disprove him. I think the OP had a good point and others have brought it up - the issue with the Munin is not the ship, its the wepon system - Artilleries. I cannot however ever come up with a reason to buff them though. . .they are capless, have great falloff and do variable damage. Those advantages, along with the high alpha nature of the gun make it potent if used correctly. . .I cannot see a way to improve them without completly outclassing the other wepons systems the way AC has. The changes to the Eagle were good, its still a very situational ship still. I don't think we will be seeing them on roaming ops. The Zelot also needed the change imo - although not increacing the grid is going to make it a very tough ship to fit. With the Munin, its not about adding more guns. . .its about changing artillery which sounds like a very delicate and potentially overpowering thing to be toying with. ---- GO BLUE!!
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:55:00 - [43] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 03/03/2008 06:57:04 Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky They don't argue with him because he is right most of the time. . .I have not seen anyone disprove him. You haven't seen anyone disprove him because he's set himself up so that he's immune to disproof. He makes four flawed assumptions: 1) That the Eagle, Vulture, Zealot and Muninn are all anti-support snipers above all else. 2) That all of them must be equally good at the job, regardless of any other factors. 3) That the only relevant factor in balance is a graph of dps over infinite time vs. range. 4) That the only acceptable targets for these ships are high-transverasal interceptors, allowing him to ignore T2 ammo. If you give him these, of course you can't disprove him, his conclusions follow perfectly from those assumptions. The problem is his assumptions are flawed, making his argument entirely worthless. 1) is false. The Eagle and Vulture are dedicated snipers. The Zealot is a close-range gank HAC and balanced as such, but it has a decent secondary role as a mid-range sniper. The Muninn is just a confused mess. 2) is even more false. The Eagle and Vulture are elite snipers from the long-range race, and should be better than all others (just as the Vagabond is the speed HAC from the speed race, and so should be best at being a fast HAC). The Vulture, as a BC-class ship and the endgame for anti-support snipers, should be better than the Eagle. The Zealot should not be as good as either, because the sniper setup is a secondary role, and a secondary setup should never beat a dedicated ship in the same class. The Muninn should not be as good because it is not properly dedicated to the role (too few mids, tracking over range, etc). Obviously a ship (Muninn, Zealot) with one optimal bonus and another useful bonus should NOT snipe as well as a ship that gives up twice as many bonuses for range. 3) is just absurd. Goumindong's balance methods completely ignore alpha strike, taking ability, secondary roles, etc. 4) is again proof that he just flies EFT. Yes, interceptors are important targets, but you do end up shooting at other things (heavy interdictors, ewar cruisers, etc). Ignoring performance against these targets is just dishonest.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 07:55:00 - [44] Amarr are the tank/gank race and so should have their ships with the most hit points and highest dps of all ships in the game. Oh wait, its not fun when ships are better and not different... 1. I do not ignore alpha strike, et all. Its simply that that the eagle is equal or better where the muninn ought to be AS WELL as the premiere long range ship. You simply lie because otherwise you have no in against the argument. 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. I can see the argument that the zealot has more versitility in the medium range, but the Muninn doesnt. Its an anti-support sniper. I know you dont like the fact that the vulture and eagle aren't currently horribly overpowered, and that CCP doesnt think that the vulture should be the ultimate end game anti-support sniper[as it is now], but really you are just going to have to deal with being very good at your role and not "overpowered" in your role.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.03 08:28:00 - [45] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 03/03/2008 08:29:27 Originally by: Goumindong Amarr are the tank/gank race and so should have their ships with the most hit points and highest dps of all ships in the game. This would be true, if Amarr were actually the tank/gank race... tank, maybe, but Gallente are the gank race. I could see boosting Amarr tanking ability, but I don't think anyone wants a one-dimensional tank race. Without completely wrecking game balance, you can't make tanking enough of an advantage to make people pick them over the other races. Quote: 1. I do not ignore alpha strike, et all. Its simply that that the eagle is equal or better where the muninn ought to be AS WELL as the premiere long range ship. You simply lie because otherwise you have no in against the argument. Thank you for proving my point here. The Eagle is NOT better at the Muninn's range, because of alpha strike! Your pretty little dps graphs show damage over infinite time, ignoring the fact that artillery are supposed to have the lowest damage over infinite time and the highest alpha strike to make up for it. Quote: 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. Yes, we should balance for laggy fleet fights where you can't change ammo. Brilliant idea. Then when the node can actually handle the fight, whether because of small gang size or because CCP finally fixes the lag problems, we'll just go back and fix everything again. Or we could, you know, do everything right the first time... And yes, your primary target is interceptors. But what do you do once the interceptors are dead? Here's a hint: it isn't "sit there doing nothing". Even if the Eagle is better at killing interceptors, you have to consider the fact that the other two are better at killing larger ships. It's entirely legitimate to trade a little anti-interceptor performance for better performance once the interceptors are dead. Of course by your lag argument, the Zealot is unfairly powerful. Since it has unlimited ammo and never needs to reload, it has massively better damage output over a long fight. When the Eagle and Muninn run out of ammo in their guns and get stuck spending the next hour trying to reload, the Zealot is still shooting. BROKEN! Quote: I can see the argument that the zealot has more versitility in the medium range, but the Muninn doesnt. Its an anti-support sniper. I know you dont like the fact that the vulture and eagle aren't currently horribly overpowered, and that CCP doesnt think that the vulture should be the ultimate end game anti-support sniper[as it is now], but really you are just going to have to deal with being very good at your role and not "overpowered" in your role. Ok, two very basic facts here: 1) The Eagle is a Caldari ship, and should be better than the Muninn as a sniper, just like the Vagabond is better than any Caldari ship at being a fast HAC. 2) The Eagle gives up two bonuses for range, while the Muninn only sacrifices one. Why should the ship that makes fewer sacrifices towards specializing in sniping be as good as the ship that dedicates everything? Again, the Muninn is broken because CCP can't decide what the ship is actually supposed to do. It has the slot layout of an armor-tanked AC boat with the wrong resists, one bonus towards being a sniper but the wrong slot layout, and one bonus towards short-range artillery ganking with inferior performance compared to the cheaper Hurricane. The result is obvious, it's poor in all of those roles. Once CCP picks a single role, we can start to balance it properly for that role.
Julio Torres Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.03 09:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Goumindong 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. Those battleships will be busy shooting other battleships. So it is irrelevant how much better they are at it.
Tyr Zewa Caldari Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.03 10:37:00 - [47] Same problem the tempest will have next patch. Other ships get boosted over and over again, their weaponry too, and in the end the unboosted ships get left behind.
Jeetah	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I'd say damage too. Its its alpha strike taht should be uber. Up the damage mod and lower the RoF imho. This is actually a very good idea. It'd also solve the problem of having only 10 rounds/cannon, which is laughable.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:43:00 - [49] Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 11:44:44 Originally by: Merin Ryskin ...Complaining about this is as stupid as complaining that the Vagabond is the best speed HAC in the game. So simple and yet so very true. Infact, sniping is even more of a niche than going fast is. --------------- you all smell!
Sergo Mor'Zert	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Merin RyskinAgain, the Muninn is broken because CCP can't decide what the ship is actually supposed to do. It has the slot layout of an armor-tanked AC boat with the wrong resists, one bonus towards being a sniper but the wrong slot layout, and one bonus towards short-range artillery ganking with inferior performance compared to the cheaper Hurricane. The result is obvious, it's poor in all of those roles. Once CCP picks a single role, we can start to balance it properly for that role.[/quote ding ding and we have the winner truth is this ship is badly designed, slot layout is just pain; amount of lows and meds should be switched and we would get closer to balance, last final touch would be swaping 5% rof for 5% dmg so we would end up with 10% dmg per level, so its alpha would be more clearly emphasized as its unique advantage. two small steps and ship will be balanced, but as we all know first step is the hardest:P
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:25:00 - [51] Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/03/2008 12:26:28 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Again, the Muninn is broken because CCP can't decide what the ship is actually supposed to do. It has the slot layout of an armor-tanked AC boat with the wrong resists, one bonus towards being a sniper but the wrong slot layout, and one bonus towards short-range artillery ganking with inferior performance compared to the cheaper Hurricane. The result is obvious, it's poor in all of those roles. Once CCP picks a single role, we can start to balance it properly for that role. i partially disagree with that... about slot allocation it have too many high slots that it doesnt use (2 unused high vs 1 of other races) considering that is supposed to be a long range ship it should get that slot moved to mid or low (mid prob bit better). about bonuses i disagree, tracking is important for a ship like this. even with the bonus is so easy to avoid most of its dmg keeping a bit of trasnv velocity. also the fact that arties have poor range doesn't help as you have the option to stay further away to make transv less an issue. sure if the enemy run at you thats not a big problem, but at that point muninn or a BS doesnt matter but against more experienced pilots that a big factor to consider. so again this is imo more a problem of gimp arties... arties where designed when the game was very different, when alpha was really a balancing factor and got they tracking nerfed on purpose... but now we are not anymore in that conditions... Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:49:00 - [52] Edited by: Rastigan on 03/03/2008 12:48:54 Originally by: Tyr Zewa Same problem the tempest will have next patch. Other ships get boosted over and over again, their weaponry too, and in the end the unboosted ships get left behind. They arent buffing any other sniping battleship, what problem will the Tempest have ? The only problem the Tempest has is that Minmatar ships are normally the best of each class so they are kind of used to EVERY ship type dominating. I think the slot layout of the ship sucks 7/3/5 (unbonused missle launchers on a specialized ship are a joke).. would the ship be better if it was 5/4/5, 5/3/6, or if it lost its drone bay for an extra low or medium slot ?
NeoTheo Final Conflict UK SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:55:00 - [53] not everyone uses these ships for Anti support, you really need to get off that bandwagon, and talk about more general issues with the ships dude. not everyone sits in lag infested fleets, sniping in bound ceptors. in more general roles the eagle was vastly underpowered, i dont doubt this fix has messed up the fleet role a bit, but i honestly dont see a better solution, the munin has better bonuses than the eagle for shooting in the first place, its just with the slot layout it does not work. ------- woot a sig ------- Linkage
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 14:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Julio Torres Originally by: Goumindong 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. Those battleships will be busy shooting other battleships. So it is irrelevant how much better they are at it. No, its not. If you have a job to do you bring the best ship for the job. I.E. who wins this fight 40 battleships + 10 support + 10 anti-support vs 30 battleships + 10 HACs shooting HACs + 10 support + 10 anti-support? A: The 40 battleship gang. 10 of those battleships can shoot HACs and they will still be better off than the 30 battleship gang. Making the determination that they ought to be shooting battleships instead of cruisers simply reinforces the point that the anti-support HACs should not be shooting cruisers, since this is a value determination and you have determined that the value of the ship to shoot cruisers is less valuable than the value of the ship to shoot battleships.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.03 14:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Rastigan They arent buffing any other sniping battleship, what problem will the Tempest have ? The only problem the Tempest has is that Minmatar ships are normally the best of each class so they are kind of used to EVERY ship type dominating. That's a load of bull excrement and you know it. minmatar ships, right now, are probably in the 4th place out of 4
Sue Mee	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:29:00 - [56] i think that munnin's biggest problem is a minmatar feature: extra high slots. same as almost any other minmatar ship (specially cyclone and tempest), munnin has far too many high slots, or too few turret slots. many minmatar ships would benefit if they'd loose 1/2 high and won that many low/mid slots.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.03 17:13:00 - [57] Originally by: Sue Mee i think that munnin's biggest problem is a minmatar feature: extra high slots. same as almost any other minmatar ship (specially cyclone and tempest), munnin has far too many high slots, or too few turret slots. many minmatar ships would benefit if they'd loose 1/2 high and won that many low/mid slots. Yep - that's a problem that ONLY the Minmitar have... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Sue Mee	Posted - 2008.03.03 17:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Sue Mee i think that munnin's biggest problem is a minmatar feature: extra high slots. same as almost any other minmatar ship (specially cyclone and tempest), munnin has far too many high slots, or too few turret slots. many minmatar ships would benefit if they'd loose 1/2 high and won that many low/mid slots. Yep - that's a problem that ONLY the Minmitar have... no, but its much more pronounced on minmatar.
xxxak	Posted - 2008.03.03 17:44:00 - [59] Minmatar easily have the best HAC (Vaga) and the best Recons. I don't think the Munnin really needs buffing. If it did, then there would be NO reason to fly Caldari.
Cool Goose	Posted - 2008.03.03 18:24:00 - [60] The only thing that annoys me at the Muninn is that most of it's resistances are on the shield and not the armor even if it's an armor taking ship.
Falkrich Swifthand Caldari eNinjas Incorporated	Posted - 2008.03.03 18:33:00 - [61] Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 03/03/2008 18:39:40 As I actually fly an eagle, allow me to comment: My current setup has: Highs: 4x250mm Coil Rails and 2xArb Assault Launchers Meds: 2xLSE II, 1xHardener, 1xInv, 1xWeb Lows: 2xPDS, 2xMFS II To fit the new eagle for 5x250mm guns, I have to remove both assault launchers and replace a MFS or PDS with more powergrid. One way gives me slightly better damage but worse tank, the other gives me the exact same tank but WORSE damage. If I change to 5x200mm guns I can get better damage than 4x250+2xAML with the same tank, but with 3/4 the range (using the same ammo). It seems balanced to me. nullnull My sig is not my sig.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 19:29:00 - [62] That is a terrible fitting.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.03 19:45:00 - [63] Edited by: Ulstan on 03/03/2008 19:52:43 Edited by: Ulstan on 03/03/2008 19:49:47 Quote: The Eagle is not overpowered, it's exactly where it should be now that it has 5 guns. Yes, it's better than the Muninn as an anti-support sniper (the Zealot is NOT primarily a sniper, and is not relevant), but that's how it should be. Caldari are the sniper race, and should have the best snipers in the game. Complaining about this is as stupid as complaining that the Vagabond is the best speed HAC in the game. QFT. Zealot is not a sniper. Obviously caldari ships should be better at sniping than minmatar ships, given how much better minmatar ships are at being nano'd. If the Munnin is a sniper and the eagle is a sniper, the eagle should just plain be better at it in most respects. Caldari are the sniper race and should thus generally have the best snipers. If the Munnin doesn't make an awesome sniper (and it shouldn't) then CCP should clarify its role. But since the T2 Minmatar cruiser line up is so excellent overall, I'm not going to shed too many tears for one of them being slightly sub par.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2008.03.03 20:20:00 - [64] Originally by: Ulstan If the Munnin is a sniper and the eagle is a sniper, the eagle should just plain be better at it in most respects. Caldari are the sniper race and should thus generally have the best snipers. This is why goumindong is right. The eagle is the long range cruiser of the long range race. It should be better in the long range. That is, up to ~100km, it should be on a par with the muninn. As it is now this is exactly true. Throwing an extra 25% damage on the ship's guns means it massively (yes, massively. 25% is a massive disparity) outclasses the muninn in all ranges. That is plain wrong.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.03 20:32:00 - [65] Munnin has more alpha strike.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.03 20:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: Ulstan If the Munnin is a sniper and the eagle is a sniper, the eagle should just plain be better at it in most respects. Caldari are the sniper race and should thus generally have the best snipers. This is why goumindong is right. The eagle is the long range cruiser of the long range race. It should be better in the long range. That is, up to ~100km, it should be on a par with the muninn. As it is now this is exactly true. Throwing an extra 25% damage on the ship's guns means it massively (yes, massively. 25% is a massive disparity) outclasses the muninn in all ranges. That is plain wrong. No it doesnt. dps is approximately the same upto 100km and the muninn has drones and a much higher alpha. At sub 100km you're still better off in a Muninn. --------------- you all smell!
SirMoric Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.03 21:14:00 - [67] But IF there's a problem, what has to be done to solve it? Isn't the problem just a ship being inferior in it's class? Obvoiusly every class has it's underdog, and every race too. Is there any real prospect in buffing the Muninn? Or nerfing the Eagle again? Or is it all about "their" boat isn't strong enough and they have to learn to do something new and innovative to win? rgds
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.03 21:15:00 - [68] you are not considering faction ammos, if you check dmg with them you can see that the picture is quite different Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.03.03 22:07:00 - [69] What I find amusing about this thread is that Goumindong and Merin actually both agree that the Muninn needs to be fixed. Goumindong thinks the new Eagle overpowers it and Merin thinks it needs to have it's role better defined, but both agree that it needs fixing. My contribution to this thread is this: the Eagle is getting a 5th turret hardpoint and no extra fitting. To fit a newly expanded full rack of 250mm rails, the Eagle will either need a fitting mod or two, which will hurt it's damage, tracking, range, and/or tank; or fit the guns with no MWD, extenders, cap boosters, or anything else that takes more than 100PG or so. As an alternative, it could mount a full rack of 200mm rails and still have some grid left for other modules. The first option makes the Eagle sub-par to the Muninn at all but extreme ranges; the second option is a lol-fit that's basically useful for long-range, aligned gate camping and nothing else; and the third option should put the Eagle about on par with the Muninn in most respects except alpha strike. To me, that sounds about right. The new Eagle will either be an extreme range machine with 5x250mm rails that is very vulnerable up close or about on par with the Munnin with 5x200mm rails. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 22:20:00 - [70] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 22:25:11 Originally by: welsh wizard No it doesnt. dps is approximately the same upto 100km and the muninn has drones and a much higher alpha. At sub 100km you're still better off in a Muninn. DPS is aprox the same from 60-100km[effective range due to tracking] currently. With the 5 turrets, the eagle is running at 25% advantage. So instead of the muninn being better in its specialty, it is only equal. This gives one no reason to fly a Muninn, for you can fill either niche just as well, and do other things better with the eagle. ed: If you are fitting anything other than the biggest longest range guns and cramming your meds with sensor boosters and tracking computers[and an MWD] when flying a Muninn or Eagle you are flying a "LOL" fit. If the eagles problem is versatility then fix its versatility. If its problem is that it doesn't do enough DPS at range, fix its dps at range[and do nothing for its DPS elsewhere]. Don't "fix" it by making it overpowered in all regards against other ships that fill the same role. ed: If you are fitting anything other than the biggest longest range guns and cramming your meds with sensor boosters and tracking computers when flying a Muninn or Eagle you are flying a "LOL" fit. If the eagles problem is versatility then fix its versatility. If its problem is that it doesn't do enough DPS at range, fix its dps at range[and do nothing for its DPS elsewhere]. Don't "fix" it by making it overpowered in all regards against other ships that fill the same role.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.03.03 22:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Thank you for proving my point here. The Eagle is NOT better at the Muninn's range, because of alpha strike! Your pretty little dps graphs show damage over infinite time, ignoring the fact that artillery are supposed to have the lowest damage over infinite time and the highest alpha strike to make up for it. There was a time, before the massive HP boost when Alpha invoked fear in people. Those days are long gone. Those of us who remember the change, also remember long threads pointing out how the HP boost was a nerf to artillery. Net result if I remember correctly was artillery got a minor DPS boost. It didn't work then and doesn't work now. Artillery should have gotten a damage boost while reducing it's ROF, to maintain it's DPS the same. The ships aren't the problem, the guns are. And the 'cap use of weapons' arguement doesn't hold here, nobody tanks long range sniper setups (range is your tank) and both the eagle and the zealot have enough cap to run their weapons forever.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:00:00 - [72] Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 23:01:11 Sigh, I'm not that arsed anymore. Be just as happy with a 25m3 drone bay and 4 turrets. I think you're blowing its effectiveness way out of proportion though and vice versa wrt Muninn ineffectiveness. Originally by: Veryez .... Completely disagree, a Munnins alpha strike on anything sub hac resist/size is still of great benefit. --------------- you all smell!
Mithrasith	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:20:00 - [73] Edited by: Mithrasith on 03/03/2008 23:21:13 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yep, saw this one coming... The Eagle is not overpowered, it's exactly where it should be now that it has 5 guns. Yes, it's better than the Muninn as an anti-support sniper (the Zealot is NOT primarily a sniper, and is not relevant), but that's how it should be. Caldari are the sniper race, and should have the best snipers in the game. Complaining about this is as stupid as complaining that the Vagabond is the best speed HAC in the game. The problem with the Muninn is it doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it an AC boat? No, the Vagabond beats it by far as a fast skirmish ship, and the Hurricane beats it in a slugging match. Is it an artillery sniper? No, it has a terrible slot layout, poor bonuses, and still loses to the Hurricane once cost-effectiveness is considered. Is it a close-range artillery one-shot-cruisers ship? No, the Hurricane wins there again. So the first thing to do before fixing the Muninn is to figure out what it's supposed to be. Until it gets a clearly defined role, trying to balance it makes no sense. Hit the nail right on the head. I compeltely agree with this poster. I find this is a continuing problem with CCP where roles of certain ships are poorly defined, often resulting in player complaints, boosts and nerfs attempting to find something for it to do well. In fact, I would go one further to say that CCP has a problem defining certain races as a whole, let alone their ships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:38:00 - [74] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 23:42:43 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 23:01:11 Sigh, I'm not that arsed anymore. Be just as happy with a 25m3 drone bay and 4 turrets. I think you're blowing its effectiveness way out of proportion though and vice versa wrt Muninn ineffectiveness. Originally by: Veryez .... Completely disagree, a Munnins alpha strike on anything sub hac resist/size is still of great benefit. They could have also given it 5 turrets and a 25% bonus in damage to spike, iorn and faction equivalents. But the scope of the imblance here is not small. The issue is that it cannot easily be seen because both ships are not shooting against each other, but against smaller ships. Is the thorax or maller better against frigates? The thorax of course, but the maller still kills them. Does this mean we shouldn't fix the Maller to have a usefull role? Does it mean we shouldnt make it fill the same role as the thorax differently? So why can we see why the thorax is so much better than the maller? Because part of their role is to provide DPS and the thorax makes the maller look like a chump in that regard.[interchange maller with Omen at your leisure] Its the main problem with the people who think this change is O.K. they dont want different, they want beter. That is not O.K. edit: Given the choice to fly two different anti-support ships One does X and X only one does X and Y and will do either with simple changes in ammo and/or scripts. Which do you choose? A: You choose the one that does X and Y
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:42:00 - [75] Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. Seriously, things are different in this game. Get over it, muninn trumps eagle in dps at modoerate ranges, and has a drone bay. It can also fit two launchers to deal with tacklers. Eagle is in no way out of line or broken with 5 turrets.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:54:00 - [76] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. Seriously, things are different in this game. Get over it, muninn trumps eagle in dps at modoerate ranges, and has a drone bay. It can also fit two launchers to deal with tacklers. Eagle is in no way out of line or broken with 5 turrets. Why should the long range, low damage race be better than the higher damage lower range race at the lower ranges race optimal range? But nice try at the strawman. Yea, it makes sense that railguns do a bit more DPS when they only have a slight range advantage. But these railguns do not only have a slight range advantage, they have a huge range advantage. Give the eagle 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses and only one optimal bonus and things will look right again. Of course, then the eagle might be a bit too strong against the Deimos. Something to keep in mind. A 5 turret, 2 damage bonus, one optimal bonus eagle does less damage at 90km than 1 damage bonus, two optimal bonus, 5 turret eagle. P.S. The cerberus does the nano-game as well as the Vagabond. Differently[using agility, ewar, and trackingless DPS to deal damage in a gang and get out fast], but about as well. Its much harder to compare the relative strength of ships in the short range when role is so loosely defined[get in fast, get out fast, not get hurt]. But both do the same job, just differently.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 00:58:00 - [77] Quote: Why should the long range, low damage race be better than the higher damage lower range race at the lower ranges race optimal range? But nice try at the strawman. Yea, it makes sense that railguns do a bit more DPS when they only have a slight range advantage. But these railguns do not only have a slight range advantage, they have a huge range advantage. Give the eagle 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses and only one optimal bonus and things will look right again. Of course, then the eagle might be a bit too strong against the Deimos. Something to keep in mind. A 5 turret, 2 damage bonus, one optimal bonus eagle does less damage at 90km than 1 damage bonus, two optimal bonus, 5 turret eagle. P.S. The cerberus does the nano-game as well as the Vagabond. Differently[using agility, ewar, and trackingless DPS to deal damage in a gang and get out fast], but about as well. Its much harder to compare the relative strength of ships in the short range when role is so loosely defined[get in fast, get out fast, not get hurt]. But both do the same job, just differently. The eagle will be able to match the muninn's damage at its optimal now. We've been through this argument before, eagle will be better at shooting interceptors. Thats the only thing. Muninn has capless guns, much large alpha, more agility, a drone bay, and two launchers. Imo, the eagle is so specialized and situation while muninn is not. If you want the muninn to perform as well at extreme ranges as the eagle, take away its drone bay, and one missle hard point. Then we will talk.
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.04 01:02:00 - [78] Originally by: KD.Fluffy mo, the eagle is so specialized and situation while muninn is not. If you want the muninn to perform as well at extreme ranges as the eagle, take away its drone bay, and one missle hard point. Then we will talk. The boost makes the Eagle far and away the best choice in all situations where you might use a Muninn. There is now no reason to ever fly the Muninn, just as previously there was no reason to fly the Eagle. I am looking for a good corp
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.04 01:07:00 - [79] Edited by: welsh wizard on 04/03/2008 01:10:20 Originally by: Deux Machina Originally by: KD.Fluffy mo, the eagle is so specialized and situation while muninn is not. If you want the muninn to perform as well at extreme ranges as the eagle, take away its drone bay, and one missle hard point. Then we will talk. The boost makes the Eagle far and away the best choice in all situations where you might use a Muninn. There is now no reason to ever fly the Muninn, just as previously there was no reason to fly the Eagle. It's still the best instalocking frig/destroyer/pod killing ship in the game courtesy of that alpha. It also has point defense in 5 light drones and 2 missile launchers. The Eagle gets nothing like that meaning its almost always forced out to range. Yes range has its advantages but it has its disadvantages too, no remote rep, increased likelyhood of getting ganked etc. --------------- you all smell!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 01:24:00 - [80] Eagle will alpha PODs, and the Muninn needs two volleys for frigs. Low HP frigs an eagle is strictly better at and pods are a wash for each. Remote reps? Getting ganked? How are these going to be usefull in large gangs? not that eagles wouldnt be better at it due to the resist bonused shield tank. If you arent, you fly something faster with closer range guns, like a vagabond. Originally by: KD.Fluffy The eagle will be able to match the muninn's damage at its optimal now. We've been through this argument before, eagle will be better at shooting interceptors. Thats the only thing. Muninn has capless guns, much large alpha, more agility, a drone bay, and two launchers. Imo, the eagle is so specialized and situation while muninn is not. If you want the muninn to perform as well at extreme ranges as the eagle, take away its drone bay, and one missle hard point. Then we will talk. The eagle was already able to match the Muninn's damage at its optimal. In fact it does a tad bit more than the Muninn right now[194 eagle vs 192 Muninn]. The Muninn has capless guns[worthless], larger alpha[only thing valuable on the list], more agility[LIES, the Muninn is not more agile than the eagle], a drone bay[more or less useless], and 2 missiles[so does the eagle]. The eagle should not be better in every way than the Muninn, sorry the Muninn needs some legitimate area where it has an advantage.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:16:00 - [81] Quote: P.S. The cerberus does the nano-game as well as the Vagabond. Differently[using agility, ewar, and trackingless DPS to deal damage in a gang and get out fast], but about as well. This comment is loltastic. cerb is as a nano ship as the vagabond... haha.... Quote: The eagle was already able to match the Muninn's damage at its optimal. In fact it does a tad bit more than the Muninn right now[194 eagle vs 192 Muninn]. The Muninn has capless guns[worthless], larger alpha[only thing valuable on the list], more agility[LIES, the Muninn is not more agile than the eagle], a drone bay[more or less useless], and 2 missiles[so does the eagle]. The eagle should not be better in every way than the Muninn, sorry the Muninn needs some legitimate area where it has an advantage. Eagle will only have 1 missle slot after the buff. Make sure you keep that in mind. Also, you fail to consider t2 ammo, which the muninn can use. With t2 ammo, it matches 5t eagle damage. So like I said earlier, only thing eagle will be better at is shooting interceptors. Also, you dont think a drone bay has any significance on balance? You think its fair for the muninn to be as proficient at sniping as an eagle, get two extra missle slots, have better agility, faster base speed, higher alpha and capless weapons? Oh and a 25m3 drone bay?! What are you smoking because I want some of it. There is more in this game then just simple dps and range when it comes to balance. The muninn has many things in its favor, it doesn't need to be the best sniper or even an equal sniper unless you take away all that other stuff, Otherwise there would be no point to the eagle.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:48:00 - [82] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 02:48:42 Only the eagle can use t2 ammo and even then its not a very good idea. The Muninn does not have the range to hit with it due to the tracking penalties. The muninn isn't more agile. The missile slots and drones do not help the ship in its role. Sp yea, they are pretty moot.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:56:00 - [83] Quote: Only the eagle can use t2 ammo and even then its not a very good idea. The Muninn does not have the range to hit with it due to the tracking penalties. Correction, The muninn cannot track nano ships with t2 ammo loaded. All other ships, it can hit. (keep in mind that there ARE more then just inties in the game, you can shoot at cruisers too I promise!) Quote: The muninn isn't more agile. Uhm yeah it is. Only slightly, but it is in fact more agile, and significantly faster. The missile slots and drones do not help the ship in its role. Sp yea, they are pretty moot. Uhm you flaunt the muninn as an anti tackler, drones and missles help it do just that should something get a tackle.. The drones and missle launchers add much flexibility to the ship that the eagle simply does not have. Flexibility is a good thing, and must be considered when comparing ships for balance. You can pretend that the muninn has no advantages over the eagle all you want, but most sane people know that its simply not the truth.
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.04 03:06:00 - [84] Originally by: KD.Fluffy You can pretend that the muninn has no advantages over the eagle all you want, but most sane people know that its simply not the truth. You can pretend like the Eagle isn't WTFBBQOP all you want, but most sane people know that its simply not the truth. I am looking for a good corp
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 03:11:00 - [85] Quote: You can pretend like the Eagle isn't WTFBBQOP all you want, but most sane people know that its simply not the truth. I know who you areee.... In all seriousness though, it is not the best sniper currently, but it will be post patch. Its the best sniper at the expense of all else. There is nothing wrong with that balance wise.
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.04 03:12:00 - [86] Edited by: Deux Machina on 04/03/2008 03:12:35 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Quote: You can pretend like the Eagle isn't WTFBBQOP all you want, but most sane people know that its simply not the truth. I know who you areee.... In all seriousness though, it is not the best sniper currently, but it will be post patch. Its the best sniper at the expense of all else. There is nothing wrong with that balance wise. You should drop by my recruitment thread and tell them how uber I am. ;-) I am looking for a good corp
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.04 04:40:00 - [87] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 05:31:00 - [88] Quote: News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all. lol at the cerb speed tanking....... Screw a vagabond, everyone speed tank their cerbs
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.04 10:17:00 - [89] Originally by: KD.Fluffy lol at the cerb speed tanking....... Screw a vagabond, everyone speed tank their cerbs Maybe you should talk to one of those nano gang whiners that abound so much.
Frodo Zsakos	Posted - 2008.03.04 12:31:00 - [90] Originally by: Nasta443 News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all. Cerbs do nano
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Frodo Zsakos Originally by: Nasta443 News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all. Cerbs do nano Cute. Noob, but cute.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all. Umm, the vaga doesn't speed tank? Then what's keeping it alive? honour? Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:25:00 - [93] Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. News for you. The cerb does speed tank. The vagabond does not. The cerb can hit and whatever speed its flying and whatever the range. The vagabond must slow down and get fairly close. So. What were you saying about the cerb and speed tanks? As far as sniping and stuff either make arty actually usefu or make the muninn useful somehow. But right now its one of the ships that sits in the station because its simply not worth it at all. Umm, the vaga doesn't speed tank? Then what's keeping it alive? honour? going bit OT to clarify (anyway the post have alredy derailed and prob ther's not much else to say about mun future troubles in its supposed role) vaga speed is rarely used during an "attack" it is mostly used to keep the distance, to close up fast a target or to get out fast if things go wrong actually the kill is generally made at non mwd speed and just taking advantage of distance vs blasters users or tracking vs laser user. but its not that a vaga fight at 6km/s and unload it full dmg, there are some situations when you can do that (generally chasing a nano or theorically against missile users) but generally you are vulnerable to opponent weapons as much as him is to yours, is just that you are just dictating range to take benefits ACs strenghts on counter a droneboat or a missileboat have no troubles with tracking so it can keep its max speed for the whole fight (at least until the cap permit) becoming way more impervious to the opponent dmg. an example of that can be a crow for the smaller ships or the old nanophoon that was able to happy orbit at 3-4km/s spamming missiles and nosing you to death. this is way more an effective way to "speed tank" as you get both full advantage of your offensive weapons and awesome speed to avoid turrets/drones/missile dmg is also interesting to see that some people are saying... no you can have a competitive long range hac (even if it is supposed to cover that role) because we are the sniper race... is a bit like to say... you cant have good shield tank because we are the tank race... or on opposite, you should have not decent gunboat as you are alredy the missile race... and so and so and so on... bit cheap imo Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 16:30:00 - [94] [quot]going bit OT to clarify (anyway the post have alredy derailed and prob ther's not much else to say about mun future troubles in its supposed role) vaga speed is rarely used during an "attack" it is mostly used to keep the distance, to close up fast a target or to get out fast if things go wrong actually the kill is generally made at non mwd speed and just taking advantage of distance vs blasters users or tracking vs laser user. but its not that a vaga fight at 6km/s and unload it full dmg, there are some situations when you can do that (generally chasing a nano or theorically against missile users) but generally you are vulnerable to opponent weapons as much as him is to yours, is just that you are just dictating range to take benefits ACs strenghts on counter a droneboat or a missileboat have no troubles with tracking so it can keep its max speed for the whole fight (at least until the cap permit) becoming way more impervious to the opponent dmg. an example of that can be a crow for the smaller ships or the old nanophoon that was able to happy orbit at 3-4km/s spamming missiles and nosing you to death. this is way more an effective way to "speed tank" as you get both full advantage of your offensive weapons and awesome speed to avoid turrets/drones/missile dmg Vaga is still the undisputed speed tank king of the HACs. I've had vagas orbiting me at 3km/s ish and still hitting me just fine. seroiusly, the cerb trying to speed tank is made of fail unless you have a HG snake set. Sure it can go on roving gangs, but certainly not speed tank. Quote: is also interesting to see that some people are saying... no you can have a competitive long range hac (even if it is supposed to cover that role) because we are the sniper race... is a bit like to say... you cant have good shield tank because we are the tank race... or on opposite, you should have not decent gunboat as you are alredy the missile race... and so and so and so on... bit cheap imo Razz Sorry muninn will still be a good ship, even with a 5t eagle around. Capless guns and alpha strike, and drone bay are worth something to many people. Paper dps is not what this game is all about.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 17:22:00 - [95] A cerb survives the same way a vagabond survives, by keeping range. It isn't going to be a solo ship, but its going to be better in a gang where its range and DPS are more useful than the vagabonds survivability.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 17:45:00 - [96] Quote: A cerb survives the same way a vagabond survives, by keeping range. It isn't going to be a solo ship, but its going to be better in a gang where its range and DPS are more useful than the vagabonds survivability. So a Cerb can fly fast enough to negate all damage? Didnt know that!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 17:47:00 - [97] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Quote: A cerb survives the same way a vagabond survives, by keeping range. It isn't going to be a solo ship, but its going to be better in a gang where its range and DPS are more useful than the vagabonds survivability. So a Cerb can fly fast enough to negate all damage? Didnt know that! It doesn't need to, because it doesn't have to slow down to deal damage, where the Vagabond does. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 19:23:00 - [98] Quote: It doesn't need to, because it doesn't have to slow down to deal damage, where the Vagabond does. But saying the cerb is as good of a speed tank as the vaga is a flat out lie. It can buffer tank, not speed tank. Heck vaga can travel at the cerbs max speed and still hit most targets. I've had vagas orbiting me at 3km/s ish and still hitting me just fine.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.04 19:33:00 - [99] Edited by: Nasta443 on 04/03/2008 19:35:24 Originally by: KD.Fluffy anyways, you guys are loosing my point here. Asking for the muninn to be as good a sniper as the eagle is like asking for the cerb to be as good a speed tank as the vaga, which imo would be stupid. The vaga does not speed tank. And if it was hitting you at 3k you had the signature of a station and it was going slow enough to be hit so.. :) Go plug some numbers and see what you find out. Most likely the vagabonds dps won't be good at all. Anyway nobody is asking for the muninn to be as "good" as a sniper as an eagle. But to either be better at a certain range, or to to something else. Having a ship that is crap just because theres some other ship that supposed to be the empitome of sniping is bad.
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:08:00 - [100] Originally by: KD.Fluffy But saying the cerb is as good of a speed tank as the vaga is a flat out lie. It can buffer tank, not speed tank. Heck vaga can travel at the cerbs max speed and still hit most targets. I've had vagas orbiting me at 3km/s ish and still hitting me just fine. The MWD puts your sig radius really high, and thus you are very easy to track. Quote: anyways, you guys are loosing my point here. Asking for the muninn to be as good a sniper as the eagle is like asking for the cerb to be as good a speed tank as the vaga, which imo would be stupid. The Muninn is subpar at all sniping ranges, and it is a sniping ship. There's no justifiable reason for the Eagle to be better at all sniping ranges where the Muninn can hit, and then go much, much further. I am looking for a good corp
Veryez	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:55:00 - [101] Getting this back to topic, I really don't have any problem with the Eagle or the Zealot getting an extra turret. I don't fly the Zealot, so any comment I would have for that is valueless. I fly both the Muninn and the Eagle, now the Muninn is clearly a better ship up to it's optimal. After the patch there will be no reason for me to fly the Muninn (well ok, it isn't bad to rat in - but that's not what this ship should be used for). While I said it before, comments after what I said, lead me to understand that I wasn't clear. I like the changes and have no problem w/them. The Eagle really needed this boost. The Muninn does NOT need a boost, Artillery needs a boost and has ever since the HP increase. Alpha just isn't all that. The HP boost meant DPS >>> Alpha since you can only insta-pop much smaller ships. What should happen is that Artillery (all sizes) get a 25% damage boost (50% would be better, but will be happy w/small changes) and a equivalent reduction in ROF such that DPS remain about the same. Then alpha will be more significant, and blundering into range of an Artillery ship would then be hazardous. Cap usage doesn't play a role in these setups, since nobody active tanks a sniper ship. As long as you have enough cap to fire your weapons, you'll be fine. So Artillery being capless is no advantage. Lastly, stop any mention of an AC Muninn. It's bonuses are designed around Artillery, and the Vagabond with it's AC tailored bonuses, is light years better as an AC boat.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.04 21:30:00 - [102] totally agree with Veryez, the eagle needed its boost and no one (at least not me :P) want it to become useless. i also agree that the problem here is mostly about the arty that is not anymore on par with other long range turrets the only thing that imo muninn need as ship is to move an high to mid or low as there is not much reason to have 2 unused high for a sniper boat and a second tracking comp/sensor boost will be nice to have Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.03.04 21:40:00 - [103] Yes, Ath, quite correct. Shame to let the Muninn sit on the shelf. It was such a nice mid-sized sniper back in the day; sadly no more. Gorty -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 21:59:00 - [104] Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 04/03/2008 22:00:32 Quote: The Muninn is subpar at all sniping ranges, and it is a sniping ship. There's no justifiable reason for the Eagle to be better at all sniping ranges where the Muninn can hit, and then go much, much further. Capless guns? Alpha? Drone bay? Two missle launchers? I count those as reasons why the eagle should have a damage at range edge... And even with the 5th turret, eagle is only matching muninns damage out to its optimal, not doing more.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.04 22:03:00 - [105] Originally by: Veryez As long as you have enough cap to fire your weapons, you'll be fine. So Artillery being capless is no advantage. Yeah? Tell that to my Tachyon Abaddon sniper. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Veryez	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:01:00 - [106] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah? Tell that to my Tachyon Abaddon sniper. Well as I've said I don't fly Amarr ships, but it looks like 3xCap Power Relays and 1xCap Control Circuit rig should allow you to fire Tach II's non-stop with SeBo's and Tracking Comps online. You don't need any Armor repairers since this is a sniper setup, 3xHeat Sink II's but 2xACR's to fit (well these lasers are larger than 1400's, so while hard at least you can fit it). Probably not how you set up amarr ships, but using a Mael setup on an abaddon you can get it cap stable, and that's w/o implants. So can be done.
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:06:00 - [107] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Veryez As long as you have enough cap to fire your weapons, you'll be fine. So Artillery being capless is no advantage. Yeah? Tell that to my Tachyon Abaddon sniper. Apoc. You want to use the Apoc. I am looking for a good corp
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:35:00 - [108] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 23:37:02 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 04/03/2008 19:25:48 Quote: It doesn't need to, because it doesn't have to slow down to deal damage, where the Vagabond does. But saying the cerb is as good of a speed tank as the vaga is a flat out lie. It can buffer tank, not speed tank. Heck vaga can travel at the cerbs max speed and still hit most targets. I've had vagas orbiting me at 3km/s ish and still hitting me just fine. anyways, you guys are loosing my point here. Asking for the muninn to be as good a sniper as the eagle is like asking for the cerb to be as good a speed tank as the vaga, which imo would be stupid. No, we are saying that its a similar nano ship. That its effect is different and not better both for the vagabond, which may be faster, but has to slow down, and the Cerberus, which may be slower, but never has to slow down and is never out of range. "speed tank" is not a role. No one is asking for the Muninn to hit 180km with its arties, all they are asking is that, at the range it does hit, and only at the range it does hit, it has a clear advantage against the competition so that is not become obsolete.
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:49:00 - [109] Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 04/03/2008 23:50:20 Quote: No, we are saying that its a similar nano ship. That its effect is different and not better both for the vagabond, which may be faster, but has to slow down, and the Cerberus, which may be slower, but never has to slow down and is never out of range. Lol, guess thats why everyone goes running screaming when they see a nano cerb gang :-/ And you right the effect is different. When ** hits the fan, the cerb dies, the vaga escapes. Or the vaga just flies around so fast nothing can touch it. Thats why it is the king of nano ships, save maybe the rapier. The cerb can't do that. Quote:** "speed tank" is not a role. No one is asking for the Muninn to hit 180km with its arties, all they are asking is that, at the range it does hit, and only at the range it does hit, it has a clear advantage against the competition so that is not become obsolete. It does have a clear advantage. It has a drone bay, alpha strike, cap less weapons, and two missle launchers (one more then the eagle will have). The alpha strike alone is good reason for it to have less dps, coupled with the other facts, its amazing people think the muninn need anymore.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:59:00 - [110] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 04/03/2008 23:50:20 Quote: No, we are saying that its a similar nano ship. That its effect is different and not better both for the vagabond, which may be faster, but has to slow down, and the Cerberus, which may be slower, but never has to slow down and is never out of range. Lol, guess thats why everyone goes running screaming when they see a nano cerb gang :-/ And you right the effect is different. When ** hits the fan, the cerb dies, the vaga escapes. Or the vaga just flies around so fast nothing can touch it. Thats why it is the king of nano ships, save maybe the rapier. The cerb can't do that. Quote: "speed tank" is not a role. No one is asking for the Muninn to hit 180km with its arties, all they are asking is that, at the range it does hit, and only at the range it does hit, it has a clear advantage against the competition so that is not become obsolete. It does have a clear advantage. It has a drone bay, alpha strike, cap less weapons, and two missle launchers (one more then the eagle will have). The alpha strike alone is good reason for it to have less dps, coupled with the other facts, its amazing people think the muninn need anymore. lol ok as you say... you always use 5 small drones at 80km woot! they are so helpfull while sniping!, and how about my cap yarrr! shame to you eagle pilot when the uberneutcannon of doom hit you at 150km, i use no cap and i can still fire. and my 2 high slots! damn bit sad that i leave them always empy prob should try to fit a tracor beam and a salvager so when the noob frig pilot head straight to me and i pop him i can get some nice loot! woot! Originally by:** Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:11:00 - [111] [QUOTE]you always use 5 small drones at 80km woot! they are so helpfull while sniping!, and how about my cap yarrr! shame to you eagle pilot when the uberneutcannon of doom hit you at 150km, i use no cap and i can still fire. and my 2 high slots! damn bit sad that i leave them always empy prob should try to fit a tracor beam and a salvager so when the noob frig pilot head straight to me and i pop him i can get some nice loot! woot![/QUOTE] Who says you have to shoot at that range? IF something warps in on you you have a lot of extra dps over the eagle. That is versatility, and is something the eagle has none of. God forbid caldari get a rail platform that is actually worthwhile to fly. Even with 5t the eagle still wont be outdamage the muninn out to its optimal, only matching its dps. Then factor in the muninn's huge alpha strike, and its FINE.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:20:00 - [112] Because its just not feasible at the ranges and gang sizes. Not to mention that drones are terrible at the type of stuff we are talking about.
Roland 99 Minmatar Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:36:00 - [113] Edited by: Roland 99 on 05/03/2008 00:37:05 I'm gonna add my .2 isk to this discussion as someone who has flown the ship a good bit. As it has already been stated, the Munin is an anti-support sniper. Just like it's big brother, the tempest, it's effectiveness was really screwed over by scripts. Most of the time in a fleet situation in this ship, you are going to be taking popshots at tacklers and dictors, so I will use an inty as the basis of my example, as well as a standard fleet 5x720 II/MWD, SB II(range), TC II(optimal)/3gyroII, 2 TE II Fitting. Using Faction carb. lead and sufficient gunnery skills: You are looking at a 95+21 falloff effective range. Using a targeting range script in the SB, your lock range is around 105k with a low 300's scan res. Using a tracking speed script puts you at 87+21 falloff. This may look okay on paper just from reading that, but stay with me here. Your Median skilled, un-implanted inty pilot is going to be buzzing towards you at between 4500-7k+ klicks a second. If they are getting fleet bonuses, you're looking at 8k or better. Since we have to use a range-scripted SB II to be able to target at a range we can actually track a fast-mover, we have a low 300's Scan resolution. It takes in the neighborhood of 4+ seconds to get a lock on something that small. Here's what usually happens. Our target, burning towards us at, say 7K/sec with a good transversal angle, comes into lock range. We start to lock, factoring in lag and human reaction time, and get him targeted. Factor in module lag, and you're getting your volley off when the inty is already under 80K at best, under 60k when it's lagging, and usually too close enough for you to track before you can even get a shot off. In a nutshell: Even with tracking bonuses, a munin pilot has a VERY narrow engagement window on high transversal targets, which is what it was designed to kill. Having to have a MWD to not die in every bubbled gate ( one of your 3 mids), combined with having to script for lockrange results in a glaring inability to lock smaller targets in time to hit them before they get too far under your optimal. At the bare minimum, this ship needs a boost to it's base lock range to keep it in the same ballpark with the other long range hac's. Ideally, I think the ship would benefit the most from a 4th mid, which would also make an Autocannon Munin viable again. While I am at it, tremor is sucking hardcore on this ship too. You pick up a measley 11K optimal over faction carb. lead at a huge tracking expense.
Afganec Minmatar R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.05 08:29:00 - [114] Most guys says muninn is better sniper hac because of its huge alfa. I say its ridiculous. With 2 gyroes and faction emp (25km range) it got 2200. Its enough only to insta pop non tanked frigs, inties and stealth bombers. But only if you're lucky to have enough tracking. But this 25 km is gate camping distance. In a roaming gang engagements muninn dies once its tackled. 2 missile slots and drones won't help versus good intie or any close hac. So muninn sucks at close ranges. In the fleet scenario. Inties usually start to approach from 150 km. Eagle have enough lock range and gun optimal to start shooting from this distance. Muninn starts shooting only from 90 km. So before muninn tries to give a frig his 1100 alfa, eagle will have a volley delivered. It was ok for 4th gun eagle. It had better range, but slightly less damage. With 5th turret Eagle got the same damage as muninn at distances from 40 km to 150. Muninn only have its alfa (thats not enough to kill a frig if you're sniping) and useless drones and missiles.
Afganec Minmatar R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.05 08:32:00 - [115] Edited by: Afganec on 05/03/2008 08:33:21 double post
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.05 09:36:00 - [116] The Muninn sucks currently, not enough optimal range, not enough targeting range. Since the SB nerf it has been essentially broken, the 5th turret on the Eagle just added insult to injury. But this has been said often enough, perhaps some day CCP will stop tweaking single ships in particular classes and take care to always look at all the ships in the same class/purpose at the same time. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.05 09:42:00 - [117] Halve RoF and double damage mod on medium arty (and all for that matter) and you've solved the problem with minnie long range since the HP buff/t2 ammo nerf. The 2x launcher slots and 5x small drones means that any scrambler trying for me is going to have a nasty surprise. ----------------- Friends Forever
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.03.05 10:04:00 - [118] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Halve RoF and double damage mod on medium arty (and all for that matter) and you've solved the problem with minnie long range since the HP buff/t2 ammo nerf. The 2x launcher slots and 5x small drones means that any scrambler trying for me is going to have a nasty surprise. 2/3rds RoF, 50% damage, IMO.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.05 10:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Goumindong Because its just not feasible at the ranges and gang sizes. Not to mention that drones are terrible at the type of stuff we are talking about. So you'd be happy to lose the launchers and the drone bay? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.05 11:11:00 - [120] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Goumindong Because its just not feasible at the ranges and gang sizes. Not to mention that drones are terrible at the type of stuff we are talking about. So you'd be happy to lose the launchers and the drone bay? fo sure whatever is on you can probably outrun your drones long enough and launchers are useless for sniping
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.03.05 11:19:00 - [121] I think what could help here is a huge and I mean HUGE falloff bonus. It would get almost the same range as an Eagle however with some restrictions in accuracy. This would enable the Muninn to effectively use EMP at sniper distances (but being more hit and miss). I know Goum will break this into pieces as being utter crap and BS, but I tried :-) Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Royaldo Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.05 11:24:00 - [122] would it be really bad if the arty's could hold more ammo? like 50 rounds?
Sharkk Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.05 12:05:00 - [123] Edited by: Sharkk on 05/03/2008 12:06:36 If i am to believe what I'm reading Munnin's sucked as anti support snipers before the 5 turret Eagle but were still preferable to the old Eagle??? and now the Munnin still sucks after the 5 turret Eagle but now Caldari have a long range HAC that is better at sniping the the Minnies? im just ****ed that the Rook can't web as well as the Huggin and the Raven can't feild as many heavy drones as a Domie
ZelRox Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.05 13:23:00 - [124] Too much EFT in this thread tbh. Eagle pretty much lost all of its advantage when the scripts were introduced. Its operating range was pretty much cut down with about 70 km. As eagle is paper thin, no drone bay, and 2 small missile launchers wont do much damage without bonus, a frig with large transversal will still receive little to no damage. Munin is somewhat in the same situation, but it has dronebay, for additional defense. Still great roaming ships, id rather go with a BC for fleet fight. ---------------------- BiH 4tw
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.05 15:52:00 - [125] Originally by: ZelRox Too much EFT in this thread tbh. Eagle pretty much lost all of its advantage when the scripts were introduced. Its operating range was pretty much cut down with about 70 km. As eagle is paper thin, no drone bay, and 2 small missile launchers wont do much damage without bonus, a frig with large transversal will still receive little to no damage. Munin is somewhat in the same situation, but it has dronebay, for additional defense. Still great roaming ships, id rather go with a BC for fleet fight. Muninn is in a worse situation because its gotta stay closer. So not only it has less time to attempt to shoot whatever but its harder to track far sooner. And the drones won't help much at all.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.05 15:56:00 - [126] Originally by: ZelRox Too much EFT in this thread tbh. Eagle pretty much lost all of its advantage when the scripts were introduced. Its operating range was pretty much cut down with about 70 km. As eagle is paper thin, no drone bay, and 2 small missile launchers wont do much damage without bonus, a frig with large transversal will still receive little to no damage. Munin is somewhat in the same situation, but it has dronebay, for additional defense. Still great roaming ships, id rather go with a BC for fleet fight. Also this. --------------- you all smell!
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.03.05 17:46:00 - [127] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg (If the Eagle is getting a boost... ..then it's about freaking time that the Pilgrim gets a boost!!! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Afganec Minmatar R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.05 18:58:00 - [128] Originally by: ZelRox Too much EFT in this thread tbh. Eagle pretty much lost all of its advantage when the scripts were introduced. Its operating range was pretty much cut down with about 70 km. As eagle is paper thin, no drone bay, and 2 small missile launchers wont do much damage without bonus, a frig with large transversal will still receive little to no damage. Munin is somewhat in the same situation, but it has dronebay, for additional defense. Still great roaming ships, id rather go with a BC for fleet fight. Muninn usually had 2 sb fitted. And lost much with scripts being introduced. Its as thin as eagle (but eagle is a bit tougher). Muninn got cute 5 warriors and 2 missile launchers. Witch won't help in killing intitie at snipe range, and won't catch orbiting tackling inter. So this 2 slots and drones are useless crap.
Stymie Jackson Caldari Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.05 19:07:00 - [129] Originally by: Goumindong Because its just not feasible at the ranges and gang sizes. Not to mention that drones are terrible at the type of stuff we are talking about. Fine. Remove a launcher and the drone bay and then talk about improving the Muninn. For roaming gangs, where you can't always dictate range like you want, far more fights occur within 100km then in normal fleet fights. Guess what...that plays to the muninn's strength. Within it's optimal with more weapons at it's disposal it does as much DPS as the improved Eagle will do at the same range. The Eagle has better range yes. How often do you get to use it? There is a reason why the Muninn has a significant speed advantage. Of course that doesn't show on EFT so you won't walk about it. you lost any credibility. In normal gang combat (<100km) range the Muninn wins. Hands down. Faster, more DPS when you include DRONES AND MISSILES. Good luck fitting a launcher on a 5 gun Eagle. Eagle triumphs in fleet action. AS ALL CALDARI SHIPS DO. Nerf the Rokh then and the Scorpion and the Rook while you are at it. EFT warriors, FTL.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.05 19:17:00 - [130] Quote: Munnin's sucked as anti support snipers before the 5 turret Eagle but were still preferable to the old Eagle??? and now the Munnin still sucks after the 5 turret Eagle but now Caldari have a long range HAC that is better at sniping the the Minnies? Yeah, pretty much. :D
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.05 19:55:00 - [131] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 05/03/2008 19:57:49 I was 20k away from a covert ops ship that was standing still in my Muninn, with 720's fit and 24k optimal (EMP) and I hit 2 out of 5 shots that took out about 2/3 of its shields, then he jumped to next system before my completely useless missiles could get to him. Tell me that is a good sniper.. rofl. Muninn has absolutely no reason to exist, remove it so I'm not tempted in my desperate faith to try to fly one in denial that minmatar has a ship that truly has no purpose. :) I honestly would rather not have a 2nd hac, so vagabonds would be more numerously produced, and hence cheaper. It doesn't need boosted, it needs redesigned. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 21:23:00 - [132] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 05/03/2008 19:57:49 I was 20k away from a covert ops ship that was standing still in my Muninn, with 720's fit and 24k optimal (EMP) and I hit 2 out of 5 shots that took out about 2/3 of its shields, then he jumped to next system before my completely useless missiles could get to him. You were probably moving fast enough to ruin your shot, you probably would have hit with all guns if you were still.....
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.06 01:39:00 - [133] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 05/03/2008 19:57:49 I was 20k away from a covert ops ship that was standing still in my Muninn, with 720's fit and 24k optimal (EMP) and I hit 2 out of 5 shots that took out about 2/3 of its shields, then he jumped to next system before my completely useless missiles could get to him. You were probably moving fast enough to ruin your shot, you probably would have hit with all guns if you were still..... I had just came out of warp. I wasn't moving at all. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Ghengis Gone	Posted - 2008.03.06 06:12:00 - [134] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Eagle is not overpowered, it's exactly where it should be now that it has 5 guns.... The problem with the Muninn is it doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it an AC boat? No, the Vagabond beats it by far as a fast skirmish ship, and the Hurricane beats it in a slugging match. Is it an artillery sniper? No, it has a terrible slot layout, poor bonuses, and still loses to the Hurricane once cost-effectiveness is considered. Is it a close-range artillery one-shot-cruisers ship? No, the Hurricane wins there again. So the first thing to do before fixing the Muninn is to figure out what it's supposed to be. Until it gets a clearly defined role, trying to balance it makes no sense. Yay. Winner right there. Also big lols at people who posted even hinting at autocannon muninns. Might as well put on lasers for the full comedy fit.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.06 09:53:00 - [135] Edited by: Nasta443 on 06/03/2008 09:53:14 so let me get this strait in a boost raven thread cruises suck because they take too long to hit anythingthats not next to you in a munin sucks thread (mostly) missiles and drones rock for sniping because they... they... they.... they what?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.06 09:58:00 - [136] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 06/03/2008 09:59:31 Originally by: Nasta443 Edited by: Nasta443 on 06/03/2008 09:53:14 so let me get this strait in a boost raven thread cruises suck because they take too long to hit anythingthats not next to you in a munin sucks thread (mostly) missiles and drones rock for sniping because they... they... they.... they what? Because its better then not having them at all? Are you saying we could add a few missiles hardpoints and drones on a zealot and eagle and you wouldnt notice it? you wouldnt whine about that? They have uses and they should be considered in balance. Muninn is a bit different. It has the missiles and drones because minmatar is the versitile race. The pure snipe/gank races will have the slightly better thought through sniper hacs. Deal with it. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.06 10:07:00 - [137] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 06/03/2008 09:59:31 Originally by: Nasta443 Edited by: Nasta443 on 06/03/2008 09:53:14 so let me get this strait in a boost raven thread cruises suck because they take too long to hit anythingthats not next to you in a munin sucks thread (mostly) missiles and drones rock for sniping because they... they... they.... they what? Because its better then not having them at all? Are you saying we could add a few missiles hardpoints and drones on a zealot and eagle and you wouldnt notice it? you wouldnt whine about that? They have uses and they should be considered in balance. Muninn is a bit different. It has the missiles and drones because minmatar is the versitile race. The pure snipe/gank races will have the slightly better thought through sniper hacs. Deal with it. go on see how much i'd care about that besides the zealot massacres the vagabond and muninn with the extra turret so it won't make any difference at all at hac level
Afganec Minmatar R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.06 10:47:00 - [138] Edited by: Afganec on 06/03/2008 10:47:36 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 06/03/2008 09:59:31 They have uses and they should be considered in balance. Muninn is a bit different. It has the missiles and drones because minmatar is the versitile race. I don't need this versatility. I need a ship that's god in a special role. In a fleet I don't need drones and missiles - its all about range, scan res and damage. Eagle beats muninn in this field. In roaming I need speed (vaga, nano sacra, ishtar) or tank (cerber or zealot) or dps (deimos, ishtar , zealot). I would prefer arti hurricane for mid range, because it does the same (looses a bit in range and scan res) but is muuuch cheaper and tanks a bit better.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.08 09:53:00 - [139] Reduce the RoF for more damage mod, that'll fix arty and the ships taht use them ----------------- Friends Forever
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.08 10:13:00 - [140] Edited by: Sokratesz on 08/03/2008 10:14:13 capless weapons an advantage? its not like when youre sniping with your muninn and you see a curse mwding towards you that you think, my weapons dont use cap anyway so ill keep sniping
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.09 09:06:00 - [141] Just bumping in response to the patch notes not having anything about the muninn. ----------------- Friends Forever
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.16 17:27:00 - [142] What's more, Tremor ammo has a 75% nerf to the tracking of arty's when used. That's NUTS! How is a support sniper supposed to hit ANY frigate speeding towards the fleet when the tracking is .009? (Hac at lvl 5 btw) To put that into perspective, a mega's 425 turrets loaded with t2 range ammo gets .004 tracking (also with lvl5 in bs) Youch! Just for even further perspective, the poor Eagle gets .007 tracking with spike loaded. Only reason a 720 arty beats out a 250 is b/c the muninn has a decent tracking bonus. Now, those numbers dont compare too well against each other, but I assure you that even a smidge of transversal at 80km will prevent the support sniper from being able to hit a cruiser. What this means is that every support sniper in the game HAS to load faction ammo,losing range (lets say 10km) just to have decent tracking. Reduce the tracking penalties on t2 range ammo to .5 or .66, and you'll see a marked improvement in the ship class. ----------------- Friends Forever
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.16 20:27:00 - [143] Use faction ammo.
FinrodFelagund Rome	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:31:00 - [144] If you want to fix muninn: 1. Increase its base lock range by 60% (muninn got nerfed hard with scripts) first. This should free up 1 medium slot, Increase base scan resolution by 60% as well. 2. Get rid of one of the missle launcher hardpoints and the drone bay. (really drones are useless in fleet fights and the missle launchers arnt going to save you when you are lagged out and the vaga gets you tackled. remove them both for all I care) 3. Remove both utility high slots. 4. Now that all the versatility is removed, figure out what is best gain for all that "loss" (its no loss to any muninn pilot who uses it as a sniper in fleet actiond) Remember minmataar are not just about versatility. We are also about hit and run, and muninn should be the ultimate support killing ship for fleet fights because minmataar are supposed to be the hit and run race. (this is a responce to the idiot who was saying caldari should be best snipers at all rangers because they are caldari, there is enough lore to support any type of ship for any race, please don't use that type of pseudo argument for balancing) Anyway most of the minmatar issues is with arty not the actual ship. Arty needs about a 50-100% dmg increase and -50-75% rof turning a couple muninns working in tandem with eachother a deadly duo for aything small. Once alpha is at least double the eagles ill accept it as an advantage, but right now its(the muninn) at about 33%ish more alpha at max range. With inties going 4k to 18k in fleet fights and muninns being tasty targets for vagas, I generally prefer not to get closer =/ Lastly whoever said muninn and tank in the same sentance LOLER. Seriously, it has 3 midslots to take advantage of its hac resistances. If you decide to armro tank it you have two giant resistance holes to fill. The muninn has absolutly no tank advantage over ANY hac and even if it did, tanking is irrelavent in fleet fights.
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.17 11:03:00 - [145] -remove 2 UBER utility/missile highslots. -add +1 med -add +1 low -final layout = 5 - 4 - 6 -double the clip size of Artillery Now she s worth flying. haq o/

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