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The Raven - good pvp ship, bad reputation ?

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Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:45:00 - [1] I've recently watched some videos where people killed ravens with weaker ships, and saw all the setups on killboards. People use rediculous setups, probably have only the basic skills but already jump in a raven to rat or whatever. It's the most used bs, since people are told it's very easy to use skillwise. Sometimes it makes me cry when i see the setups and modules of killed ravens. This leads to a bad reputation, so that someone who is specialized on a raven, has the important skills at 5, can use all t2 modules and would do a good job in pvp, is often rejected by FCs, because everyone has this easy kill in mind, they had, when catching a random raven-noob. But is this ship really that bad in pvp, even if used properly and in the right hands ? Or is that bad reputation unjustified ?
Valkazm Amarr Knights of Tiberius Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:47:00 - [2] Try using it in a fleet were you have about 7 seconds untill your primary is dead . its hard your useless just getting on killmails without even hitting the target before there dead. Small ganking sure ravens no problem otherwise use them by experiance any ship in eve works in some role . ....................................... Signature Breaking Eve news
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:48:00 - [3] Ravens used to suck royaly at all forms of pvp. Now they are teh masters of <30km torp spamming pvp with proper support but still suck royaly at all other pvp roles. Originally by: MM0RPG EVE Review "if you aren't my friend you are my income."
Dr Qu Caldari Gone Viking	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:55:00 - [4] There is also the issue of cost. The Raven is a very cheap Battleship and many people who use them for ratting do not deck them out with heavy expensive T2 equipment, simply because it is nto needed. You can easily scrounge up a Raven with a T1 fitting and rat away and earn millions without spending more then a few million extra isk over the Ravens base cost. That way you do not lose as much when the Pirates come and gank you dead, which has lead us to those 'easy' kills by weak ships stumbling on to ratting Raven pilots. Ravens in PvP? Weeell, it has its role I guess. But one of the reasons remains the same. Missiles has to travel to the target to damage. That makes it useless as a sniper. As an 'up close' gate camper? Well, it could work but only if it has good tackling support to lock the target down. Especially if it is a speedy ship. And then I still think most FCs would prefer to go with a battleship parked in a sniper position with tackling support by the gate itself. It is not the Raven itself that the Fleet Commanders shun if you ask me. It is the fact that it spits out missiles. And in PvP, having to wait for your dps to land on an enemy just isnt a good option. :: "In hullintegrity we trust" ::
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:10:00 - [5] You sure this doesn't belong in another forum somewhere? I can't resist replying ... I'm in agreement with the first guy. Fleet fight leave your raven at home. Small gang PVP (low-sec or empire griefing - both contain high degrees of fun) it is fantastic. But yes, fleet - it doth sucketh royally. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ... General Aesthetics Changes Thread
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:19:00 - [6] raven is a very nice pvp ship for smaller gang sizes under 50. damage is very nice ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:48:00 - [7] I feel that the Ravens reputation as a 'bad' pvp ship is largely undeserved... it can be a truly ebil adversary. Originally by: Yakia TovilToba People use ridiculous setups, probably have only the basic skills... The thing is that because you don't *need* high skills to use T2 missiles they simply get neglected, where as using turret based ships the pilot is forced to train high skills in order to even fit T2 weapons. By the time you are flying a BS this is a difference that can really tell. Originally by: Valkazm Try using it in a fleet were you have about 7 seconds untill your primary is dead Try being closer to your target... just because you can hit at long range with cruise missiles, doesn't mean you should be. Missile boats are not snipers. That said, in any sizable engagement there is a good chance that a majority of ships are going to be at range, this is fine too as any FC will be calling more than just a primary, secondary/tertiary targets... these are for you Raven pilots. Originally by: Dr Qu There is also the issue of cost. The Raven is a very cheap Battleship and many people who use them for ratting do not deck them out with heavy expensive T2 equipment... This is an outright lie, T2 equipment is for the most part a lot cheaper than the named (meta 4) T1 equipment and has been for quite a while now. Generally if an FC is turning down Raven pilots it is either because A: ECM would be a better option (Good Ewar ability is worth it's weight in Dysprosium ) or B: They know they are going to get a whining tard with a half arsed fit.
WhiteSavage Dark Force Recon Blood and Steel	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:48:00 - [8] I'll fight a Raven in my Mega any day of the week :D ___________________________________________ ..My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.03 06:53:00 - [9] Since the torpedo buff Ravens are a lot more useful in PvP. With decent skills a T2 torp raven can spit out 800+ DPS with full choice of damage types and a hefty tank to boot. Added bonus is that huge numbers of people are clueless about the power of the Raven now and thus it's rarely called primary, giving you plenty of time to dish that 800 DPS out. The poster above me demonstrates the perceptions perfectly. 1 on 1 (with similarly skilled pilots nad similar value fittings) a Megathron will probably beat a Raven, yes. But in a small-to-medium fleet engagement the Megathron is FAR more likely to get called primary and thus contribute far, far less to the battle overall than the Raven will. ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.03 07:15:00 - [10] Ok the torp raven seems to be accepted, noticed that too. But i didnt make that good expiriences with it so far, usually the target was out of range (30km is not much on a slow ship) and i didn't manage to fit 6 siege II, tank and mwd and enough damagemods. In addition to that i was jammed quite often. So i was wondering what you think about a cruise missile raven, it was especially for cruise missiles, where i got negative feedback, something like "only carebears and noobs use ravens" (this was referred to my cruise missile raven). Have 20% of cruise missile specialisation 5 trained now, not sure if i shall continue (20+ days left). How do you think about a totally maxed out cruise missile raven, evry last % of damage trained, faction missiles, at least 3 bcu, every module t2. Can this be a serious pvp ships, without the pilot having to excuse himself all the time, for bringing this ship and weapontype to pvp ?
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.03.03 07:32:00 - [11] Raven used to be bad for pvp. Now its good for PvP since torp changes. However, pilots tend to still fit ratting setups, or isk farmer setups (sensor booster, wcs, cloak) and these crappy setups are the reason they die. Also Gank videos almost never show gank losses. Therefore they are not to be 100% relied upon. You can change the raven, but you cannot change the raven pilot it seems Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.03.03 07:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Apocryphai The poster above me demonstrates the perceptions perfectly. 1 on 1 (with similarly skilled pilots nad similar value fittings) a Megathron will probably beat a Raven, yes. But in a small-to-medium fleet engagement the Megathron is FAR more likely to get called primary and thus contribute far, far less to the battle overall than the Raven will. Do you realise why primarys are called in the order that they generally are? Firstly, enemy logistics are killed so that killing everyone else is possible. Then EW ships are singled out as they can shut down multiple friendly damage dealers and have weak tanks. Then either dictors or high damage dealing/low tank ships are picked. The ravens and drakes are very low on the list because they suck. This doesnt make them better than a megathron, the mega gets called primary because its damage makes it a huge threat. Ravens arent as terrible as the public perception but they certainly arent very good. And yeah, solo killing a raven in a taranis or ishkur is hillarious.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.03 08:26:00 - [13] If Raven was any good, i would ve trained up for it years ago, Too slow, too clumsy. I would recomand training for a Rokh straight away if you re not going to be doing much of missions. Least you ll be usefull in fleets. Now i have 51msp in caladari ships only, all pvp. And i finally started to train for a BS, why? Because i run out of skills tbh. And that golem looks rather cool. Quote: You are what you are, fool
Lorna Loot Caldari Nox Eternus	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:39:00 - [14] A fully skilled T2 torp raven is a worthy opponent, the sheer dps they can put out with T2 torps is amazing. Problem is you need to choose between scram or tank, MWD isnt really a viable option so its still a slow boat. --------------------- Nox Eternus is Recruiting, contact me or Sgt Shazz ingame for info.
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:43:00 - [15] Turrets are always priority if your style of play is fleet war. But for small scale pvp, and small gang pvp, the torp t2 raven is great for pvp. You need gangmates though to scramble for you Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.03 11:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Valkazm Try using it in a fleet were you have about 7 seconds untill your primary is dead . its hard your useless just getting on killmails without even hitting the target before there dead. Small ganking sure ravens no problem otherwise use them by experiance any ship in eve works in some role . Your FC should call a primary and a secondary. Fire your cruise at the secondary. As soon as the primary is dead, FC should call a new secondary; switch to firing at him. Or: ignore primary, and shoot the crap out of enemy EW ships with your incredibly long range (I have Missile Projection & Bombardment 5, Caldari BS 4, and my cruise reach out to insanely long ranges, something like 230Km with no reduction in damage whatsover. Easily enough to kill/drive off those annoying Blackbirds. You can also hit/drive away their snipers. Or: ignore primary and use your torps to shoot in the face any heavy ship unwise enough to get within 30Km of you. Laugh maniacally as the blaster mega gets tackled by your support and has to eat 1000DPS+ while you're still 10Km outside his blaster range. Rejoice as, even with 3 BCS and a sensor booster, you still enjoy a 7-slot tank that you can use all of your cap to sustain (unless you feel like hitting him with a heavy neutraliser as well, just for lulz). Yes, Caldari ships are poor if you try and fly them like the more adaptable minmatar/gallante ships. If you can be in a gang where people have specialised roles and can be trusted to carry them out, then they're highly effective. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sekhmet Orion Mandatory Suicide Incorporated	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Malcanis Your FC should call a primary and a secondary. Fire your cruise at the secondary. As soon as the primary is dead, FC should call a new secondary; switch to firing at him. Or: ignore primary, and shoot the crap out of enemy EW ships with your incredibly long range (I have Missile Projection & Bombardment 5, Caldari BS 4, and my cruise reach out to insanely long ranges, something like 230Km with no reduction in damage whatsover. Easily enough to kill/drive off those annoying Blackbirds. You can also hit/drive away their snipers. Or: ignore primary and use your torps to shoot in the face any heavy ship unwise enough to get within 30Km of you. Laugh maniacally as the blaster mega gets tackled by your support and has to eat 1000DPS+ while you're still 10Km outside his blaster range. Rejoice as, even with 3 BCS and a sensor booster, you still enjoy a 7-slot tank that you can use all of your cap to sustain (unless you feel like hitting him with a heavy neutraliser as well, just for lulz). Yes, Caldari ships are poor if you try and fly them like the more adaptable minmatar/gallante ships. If you can be in a gang where people have specialised roles and can be trusted to carry them out, then they're highly effective. Those are not very realistic suggestions. Shooting the secondary just to get on the killmail is a worthless role for a BS. In fleet engagements with 30+ sniping BS, the Primary is aplha'ed. That is the main reason missiles are not used. By the time they reach the target ..its already gone. Shooting a blaster mega inside 30km is not likely to happen for you in a large fleet, as most FC's ask for sniping BS. One reason for this is that if you can snipe at around 170km, then you pretty much negate the damage from any T1 fitted BS. So it gives you an advantage when T2 fitted. If there was some fool who brought a blaster mega, and hung around inside a bubble with the fast support...then yes he would deserver to die to your torp raven. Close range BS fights are more normally remote repping, with huge soak tanks. Again, something the raven is not very good at
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Roxanna Kell If Raven was any good, i would ve trained up for it years ago, Too slow, too clumsy. Clumsy... caldari battleships have the same agility as minmatar ones now. Please point me to the nearest cliff. There's people I want to push over.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2008.03.03 12:27:00 - [19] Cruise raven makes very swift work of enemy support in a fleet fight. All those enemy cruisers/ hacs etc? Even some of the BCs. A few volleys of target painter supported cruise will either kill - or force them out of the fight.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.03 15:25:00 - [20] The raven is a good pvp ship, great in a small gang, pretty decent duo/solo. The problem is, once the numbers get to a point where its no longer a "small gang," its dps becomes much less relevant because its not instant. If your trying to pop BCs or anything smaller; by the time the torps get to the target its already almost dead, and its almost certainly dead before the second volley impacts, which usually results in a rack worth of torps going sailing off into empty space. That said; a gank raven, a falcon, a decent tackler/dictor, and dedicated webber can make piecemeal of just about anything. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.03 15:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Roxanna Kell If Raven was any good, i would ve trained up for it years ago, Too slow, too clumsy. Clumsy... caldari battleships have the same agility as minmatar ones now. Please point me to the nearest cliff. There's people I want to push over. And Raven is typically quicker than an armour-rigged BS. After you with the Cliff of Stupidity, please.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:04:00 - [22] Quote: is often rejected by FCs It's rejected by fleet commanders because missiles suck in fleets because of their absurdly long travel times. The target can be dead before your missiles even arrive. With the new buffed torps a torp raven is decent in small gang short range PvP, but it's no surprise missile ships are turned down by fleet commanders.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:06:00 - [23] If you're in a Raven you can pick your own targets. There is nothing that says you have to shoot the primary. And for people saying that 30 km, with torpedos, is too short a range for a slow ship, you've obviously never, ever flown a blaster ship. 20-30 km doesn't count as a short range weapon in my book.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: is often rejected by FCs It's rejected by fleet commanders because missiles suck in fleets because of their absurdly long travel times. The target can be dead before your missiles even arrive. With the new buffed torps a torp raven is decent in small gang short range PvP, but it's no surprise missile ships are turned down by fleet commanders. This is ridiculous. Its all about how you view them. The Raven is not a sniper for primary targets like a thron or a pest. The snipers kill the primaries- a raven can make mincemeat of the support by picking off the hacs etc. An FC who rejects Ravens per se is silly...
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:10:00 - [25] Edited by: Ulstan on 03/03/2008 16:12:19 Quote: If you're in a Raven you can pick your own targets. There is nothing that says you have to shoot the primary. Why does anyone have to shoot the primary? Why does a fleet commander bother picking a primary at all? Just let everyone pick their own targets! All the people saying "just don't shoot the primary" are ignoring the reason the whole 'FC chooses a primary' system exists in the first place. A ship that can't assist on the primary is less versatile and less valuable in minds of FC's than a ship that can both assist on the primary and shoot up support or something else.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 03/03/2008 16:13:34 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Missile boats are not snipers. Raven Cruise can be a decent sniper in Fleet battle, as the most important is not that who can shoot instantly or not, but who lag and who don't lag. If you don't lag, your missiles has the time to travel to their target same primarys ones, and do better dps. I managed to do some kills this way, but in an ideal situation (no lag), of course, this ship would not be good. _______ 16/20 Dragon : ½ Great Game + 14/20 Revelations : ½ Desyncs... + 11/20 Trinity : ½ BBSOD, Bugs, Desyncs, F*** Nerfs + 10/20 v1.1 : ½ [...] + EXP shield nerf + CCP, you are tiring.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis Rejoice as, even with 3 BCS and a sensor booster, you still enjoy a 7-slot tank that you can use all of your cap to sustain (unless you feel like hitting him with a heavy neutraliser as well, just for lulz). I don't think counting PDUs as (shield) tank slots makes any kind of sense. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 03/03/2008 16:12:19 Quote: If you're in a Raven you can pick your own targets. There is nothing that says you have to shoot the primary. Why does anyone have to shoot the primary? Why does a fleet commander bother picking a primary at all? Just let everyone pick their own targets! All the people saying "just don't shoot the primary" are ignoring the reason the whole 'FC chooses a primary' system exists in the first place. A ship that can't assist on the primary is less versatile and less valuable in minds of FC's than a ship that can both assist on the primary and shoot up support or something else. Clearly- spreading fire is BAD. However, do you expect your sniper eagles to follow the primary call? Of course not- they pick off the little stuff and watch for encroaching ceptors. You can use a raven in the same way. Of course, if you have choice of a t2 raven OR a t2 sniper- then the FC wiull udnerstandably prefer the extra proper sniper. But Ravens are good at their task picking off support form range- and under rated.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.03 16:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Malcanis Rejoice as, even with 3 BCS and a sensor booster, you still enjoy a 7-slot tank that you can use all of your cap to sustain (unless you feel like hitting him with a heavy neutraliser as well, just for lulz). I don't think counting PDUs as (shield) tank slots makes any kind of sense. You're right - extra shield HP and extra cap to rep that shield with are nothing to do with tank. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.03 17:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ogul I don't think counting PDUs as (shield) tank slots makes any kind of sense. You're right - extra shield HP and extra cap to rep that shield with are nothing to do with tank. Not if it takes two PDUs to match one LSE. And active shield tanking a Raven for PvP is kind of... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.

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