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Missions - nowadays impossible with faction equipment ?

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Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Durzel I'd speculate that they neut'd his cap to 0 at which point a Raven is pretty much dead in the water unless it has some bizarre passive fit. It's a minor irony in the game that a Drake, for example, despite being a "weaker" ship than the Raven could actually withstand a suicide gank a lot better than a ship that has no cap to actively tank. There's no module in game that cuts out peoples ability to passive tank... 6 Ravens with torps is a lot of volley damage. In case of suicide gank your tanking ability is irrelevant. All that matters is your hp buffer and 'effective hp' (ie your hp times restiance against damagetype done). Omnitanked CNR has approx 100 000 hp after resists. With overheating the siege launchers raven is almost quaranteed to get off 2 volleys (less than 5 sec between volleys with full rack of BCU's in low), possibly even 3 if it's lucky. Suicide gank is too short to neut anything dry. Hardeners afterall do not take that lot of energy anyway. So if I would be organizing suicide gank with ravens I would go something on the lines Hi: 6x Siege II (with Rage) or T1 Sieges with CN ammo Med: 2x sensor bsooter (scan reso scripts) 1x 20 km point 2x painters low: 5x BCU drones: 3x sentry drones (they dont need to travel) Range of torps if your pilots have adequate skills is almost perfect for hi sec suicide ganking by sitting on top of gate. Anything that comes thru is within 20 km range, usually at 12 - 15 km away from you if you sit on top of gate. Mission fitted CNR eneters into warp with approx 10 seconds. That is plenty of time to drop point on it and interrupt warp. All you need is some NPC corp alt with passive targeter scanning CNR's at local station with agent and make a list for yourself with pilot names who are worth ganking.
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:55:00 - [32] It doesn't matter what you fly, you ain't tanking 150 torps in 30 seconds -----
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Durzel The OPs point is sound. No, no it isn't. While you can never be 100% safe, avoiding suicide ganks is just a matter of taking sensible precautions. Don't brag about what you fly or its fitting. Anywhere. Ever. At least not with your main. Don't fly missions in or around busy systems where people are likely to be looking for targets. Don't fly your uber expensive ship if you suspect there are suspicious individuals around. Pay attention to local. Check your scanner for probes (in case they're coming pop you in the mission DS). There really isn't anything worth anyone whining about.
AS Patriot StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:02:00 - [34] Suicide ganking is prolly the best way to simulate robbery and violence from RL.. The eve world is a pretty harsh environment filled with humans... In my opinion suicide ganking is a very good tactic and makes the gameplay a bit massive-multiplayer... The only way to steal from people is to hack their accounts which is pretty much out-of-game related... So if you cannot suicide gank in high sec, then there should be a good delay on concord response (of course based on the security level of the system you are in) Otherwise high sec would just be a kindergarden that kind of ruins eve... If high sec could be much more dangerous, then I guess low sec and 0.0 would be more populated.. Of course 1.0 sec systems should be very very dangerous to make crimes... It should be possible to strike back on concord (without sitting in a faction - supermax skilled out ship and gear) so you get a chance to escape...) Almost every ship in eve has some kind of weapon bonus, therefore there is no point in only having a few ships that you would actually use in combat... And yeah make the insurance go a bit lower... That would make it a bit more realistic And yes I was a fullblood carebear a few months ago _________________________________________________ I fly for these: And I love it
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:05:00 - [35] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 04/03/2008 15:04:58 Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Durzel The OPs point is sound. No, no it isn't. While you can never be 100% safe, avoiding suicide ganks is just a matter of taking sensible precautions. Don't brag about what you fly or its fitting. Anywhere. Ever. At least not with your main. Don't fly missions in or around busy systems where people are likely to be looking for targets. Don't fly your uber expensive ship if you suspect there are suspicious individuals around. Pay attention to local. Check your scanner for probes (in case they're coming pop you in the mission DS). There really isn't anything worth anyone whining about. Paying attention to local is so very helpful when they wait for you behind the next gate... Soon we will need scouts even for highsec I guess. Metagaming 4tw! There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:06:00 - [36] 1: Hello iudex. I'd like to congratulate you on voiding our generous one time only module reclamation discount; no savings for you! 2: High sec is safer, not safe. This has been stated since day one, and suicide has been a valid tactic since then. It's not going to change and it's easy to avoid. 3: Nothing in eve is risk-free, no matter how much you want it to be. (not even doing complexes in carriers ) 4: Empire != Care-a-lot. 5:
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Durzel on 04/03/2008 15:09:00 Edited by: Durzel on 04/03/2008 15:08:24 Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Durzel The OPs point is sound. No, no it isn't. While you can never be 100% safe, avoiding suicide ganks is just a matter of taking sensible precautions. Don't brag about what you fly or its fitting. Anywhere. Ever. At least not with your main. Don't fly missions in or around busy systems where people are likely to be looking for targets. Don't fly your uber expensive ship if you suspect there are suspicious individuals around. Pay attention to local. Check your scanner for probes (in case they're coming pop you in the mission DS). There really isn't anything worth anyone whining about. Those are fair points, but not really that helpful. 1) If you brag about your fit - sure, you're asking for trouble. I pretty much class that in with autopiloting around in low-sec (i.e. very stupid) 2) Not flying missions around busy systems is an option but it's not really a defence. As posted above if they find you somewhere else (and they might chase you around if you're flying something truly worth ganking) then you still have no defence to it other than blind luck not bumping into them at a gate - or so it sounds. 3) Suspicious individuals? How do you keep track of individuals you may have never come across before? Obviously Tri are known for their empire activities but I had never heard of Shinra before this thread (granted Im a noob and not likely to be a target for them, but could be). There are no doubt plenty of other corps dedicated to the same activity. The big problem I have with what's been posted by the OP is that it sounds like he did nothing "wrong" at all other than flying a ship worthy of being ganked, and it sounds like any fitting worth over 100m could be a profitable target. If he had come in and said "so I was flying through low-sec" or "so I stole back from a yellow can" then that's one thing, but being killed when you've taken every practical precaution and are at-the-keyboard is a bit of a shame.
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:12:00 - [38] Originally by: AS Patriot Suicide ganking is prolly the best way to simulate robbery and violence from RL.. Except in real life after the criminal is busted you have some hope of getting your stuff back and if the criminal passes the goods off to a 3rd party the police will try pursue that 3rd party too. Originally by: AS Patriot Otherwise high sec would just be a kindergarden that kind of ruins eve... No, it only "kind of ruins eve" on those who are too cowardly to go to low sec/0.0 in spite of insisting that that is the kind of game experience they want, instead they want to just try find fun in interfering with the game experience of those who choose to stay in high sec to avoid such as they either are not ready/do not feel ready or simply have no interest in PvP what-so-ever.
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:16:00 - [39] Originally by: Durzel The big problem I have with what's been posted by the OP is that it sounds like he did nothing "wrong" at all other than flying a ship worthy of being ganked His mistakes were assuming he was invincible because he was in high sec and therefore taking no precautions, not being aware of his surroundings and taking none of the options available to him when we started shooting. [just to illustrate the level of carebearism involved: after he died he undocked in a carrier and came and sat on the gate....in a 0.5...yes a carrier purpose-built in high-sec to be invincible and run missions]
Kusha'an Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Space Flyer Edited by: Space Flyer on 04/03/2008 14:48:05 Originally by: Sabahl So I guess you were one of the team who is doing the gate ganking then? No idea who your main is but IMO gate ganking has always been the lowest form of scum-suckingness in the game. And given your reaction I am guessing you like my suggestion the least which probably means it'd be the most effective Weird... I thought that the lowest form of scum-suckingness was being a carebear, carebearing while the others are fighting to defend space... maybe even manage to loose a carrier to npcs ...ya' know! Well you thought wrong. Nice try, though. You keep on trying to think, maybe you'll get it right one of these days.
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Darkspawned No, it only "kind of ruins eve" on those who are too cowardly to go to low sec/0.0 in spite of insisting that that is the kind of game experience they want, instead they want to just try find fun in interfering with the game experience of those who choose to stay in high sec to avoid such as they either are not ready/do not feel ready or simply have no interest in PvP what-so-ever. So...what you're saying is: Initiating non-consentual pvp, in a non consentual-pvp game is ruining said non-consentual pvp game? Yeah, makes perfect sense.
Kusha'an Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Shinigami So what will the point of the LP store be when everyone has a set of faction items and never has to risk losing them? So what will the point of the LP store be when nobody bothers to fit their ships with faction mods because they instantly become suicide gank bait?
AS Patriot StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Darkspawned Originally by: AS Patriot Suicide ganking is prolly the best way to simulate robbery and violence from RL.. Except in real life after the criminal is busted you have some hope of getting your stuff back and if the criminal passes the goods off to a 3rd party the police will try pursue that 3rd party too. Originally by: AS Patriot Otherwise high sec would just be a kindergarden that kind of ruins eve... No, it only "kind of ruins eve" on those who are too cowardly to go to low sec/0.0 in spite of insisting that that is the kind of game experience they want, instead they want to just try find fun in interfering with the game experience of those who choose to stay in high sec to avoid such as they either are not ready/do not feel ready or simply have no interest in PvP what-so-ever. I only go to high sec for longer time if I wanna nurse my invention jobs or mine veldspar, or go afk with implants for months.. Otherwise I would stay there for long if I don't have enough bandwith and PC-power to handle pvp... And I haven't lost a ship in low sec for ages... 0.0 the big graveyard hehe Most of the newest players I meet (RL friends and other bragging dudes) tend to go directly for the pvp side.. Many MANY ibiz's has lost their lives in the process of noobs getting introduced to concord Even my first _________________________________________________ I fly with them: And I love it
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Thmaist Originally by: Darkspawned No, it only "kind of ruins eve" on those who are too cowardly to go to low sec/0.0 in spite of insisting that that is the kind of game experience they want, instead they want to just try find fun in interfering with the game experience of those who choose to stay in high sec to avoid such as they either are not ready/do not feel ready or simply have no interest in PvP what-so-ever. Lets face it when they suicide gank a ship like that it has NOTHING to do with PvP it's about circumventing the risk Vs. Reward scale, because they're not good enough PvPers to cut it in 0.0/low sec and too lazy to earn their wealth in high sec. So...what you're saying is: Initiating non-consentual pvp, in a non consentual-pvp game is ruining said non-consentual pvp game? Yeah, makes perfect sense.
Space Flyer Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Kusha'an Originally by: Space Flyer Edited by: Space Flyer on 04/03/2008 14:48:05 Originally by: Sabahl So I guess you were one of the team who is doing the gate ganking then? No idea who your main is but IMO gate ganking has always been the lowest form of scum-suckingness in the game. And given your reaction I am guessing you like my suggestion the least which probably means it'd be the most effective Weird... I thought that the lowest form of scum-suckingness was being a carebear, carebearing while the others are fighting to defend space... maybe even manage to loose a carrier to npcs ...ya' know! Well you thought wrong. Nice try, though. You keep on trying to think, maybe you'll get it right one of these days.
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Darkspawned Lets face it when they suicide gank a ship like that it has NOTHING to do with PvP it's about circumventing the risk Vs. Reward scale, because they're not good enough PvPers to cut it in 0.0/low sec and too lazy to earn their wealth in high sec. Let's see...players shooting at a player.... Yep, sounds like pvp to me.
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:28:00 - [47] I like PvPing as well as doing missions between PvP periods, but there are those players that only want PvE (quite a lot of them actually). And if suicide ganking becomes to common those players will simply leave, and no one will benefit from that. And while suicide ganking has always been possible, its only in the last months that it has become popular against mission runners. It used to happen against AFK players on autopilot though, or against paper thin haulers, but never against mission runners. There is nothing wrong about being a so called carebear though. Its one way to play the game, and its not like they hurt anyone else while doing it (unlike for example suicide gankers).
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:30:00 - [48] Originally by: Thmaist Originally by: Darkspawned Lets face it when they suicide gank a ship like that it has NOTHING to do with PvP it's about circumventing the risk Vs. Reward scale, because they're not good enough PvPers to cut it in 0.0/low sec and too lazy to earn their wealth in high sec. Let's see...players shooting at a player.... Yep, sounds like pvp to me. And I'm sure going up to a random person in a police station and knocking them out with a baseball bat sounds like a fight to you....
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:31:00 - [49] I've lived in 0.0 since i'm 3 weeks old, truth be told, ganking high sec ships makes more isk than anything else in eve i've ever done, and i've done pretty much everything short of mining. -----
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Thmaist Originally by: Darkspawned Lets face it when they suicide gank a ship like that it has NOTHING to do with PvP it's about circumventing the risk Vs. Reward scale, because they're not good enough PvPers to cut it in 0.0/low sec and too lazy to earn their wealth in high sec. Let's see...players shooting at a player.... Yep, sounds like pvp to me. I am actually ashamed I was in the same alliance as you guys when I hear bs like that. Suicide ganking is anything but PvP, and a PvP corp like Shinra should know that. Or are you still a PvP corp?
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:33:00 - [51] Originally by: Darkspawned And I'm sure going up to a random person in a police station and knocking them out with a baseball bat sounds like a fight to you.... No, it sounds like non-consentual pvp where one party has taken the other by surprise with a large weapon. Well done, you've found a real life parallel.
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle I am actually ashamed I was in the same alliance as you guys when I hear bs like that. Suicide ganking is anything but PvP, and a PvP corp like Shinra should know that. Or are you still a PvP corp? My heart bleeds. Do you know what the letters pvp stand for? It would appear you don't. Comfortable on that high horse?
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Thmaist Originally by: Darkspawned And I'm sure going up to a random person in a police station and knocking them out with a baseball bat sounds like a fight to you.... No, it sounds like non-consentual pvp where one party has taken the other by surprise with a large weapon. Well done, you've found a real life parallel. Extending that parallel, how many months banning (jailtime) do you think that person would get for doing such?
Space Flyer Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle Originally by: Thmaist Originally by: Darkspawned Lets face it when they suicide gank a ship like that it has NOTHING to do with PvP it's about circumventing the risk Vs. Reward scale, because they're not good enough PvPers to cut it in 0.0/low sec and too lazy to earn their wealth in high sec. Let's see...players shooting at a player.... Yep, sounds like pvp to me. I am actually ashamed I was in the same alliance as you guys when I hear bs like that. Suicide ganking is anything but PvP, and a PvP corp like Shinra should know that. Or are you still a PvP corp? Dude, you were in one of the most carebearing corp of the alliance... you shouldn't even dare to speak... /me looks at Mangus' sec status .
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Shinigami on 04/03/2008 15:38:47 Originally by: Darkspawned Extending that parallel, how many months banning (jailtime) do you think that person would get for doing such? He would be out on parole in a few weeks if it happened in the US. We need to save room for the more violent offenders.
Thmaist Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:39:00 - [56] Originally by: Darkspawned Extending that parallel, how many months banning (jailtime) do you think that person would get for doing such? Rl: arrested by the fuzz, followed by some jail time. Eve: Blown up by the fuzz. What's your point?
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:45:00 - [57] Originally by: Space Flyer Dude, you were in one of the most carebearing corp of the alliance... you shouldn't even dare to speak... /me looks at Mangus' sec status . And still I have over 2k kills in 0.0 and another 1000 kills in empire. Btw, my alt has -9.95 status with State War Academy. To much noob ganking in 0.0 I would guess. You might also want to search for Magnus Thermopyle on the so called carebear corp killboard I was part of. I am a PvP player, thats what I enjoy, but that dont stop me from so called carebearing between PvP. After all, real PvP costs money. And real PvP is very different from suicide ganking, which you know perfectly well.
Darkspawned	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 04/03/2008 15:38:47 Originally by: Darkspawned Extending that parallel, how many months banning (jailtime) do you think that person would get for doing such? He would be out on parole in a few weeks if it happened in the US. We need to save room for the more violent offenders. Still a few weeks off the streets as opposed to a payout from the insurance company and you're on your way. Fact is that something needs to be done to address peoples' ability to break the risk Vs. reward rule and as such undoubtedly end the excessive popularity of suicide ganking. Sure, if you fly something worth a half billion there will be some folks who will try, and maybe succeed in, suicide ganking you to grab any loot that drops, but at least it will require a ship of that kind of value or higher before it's worth it to them so it'll be a far rarer incident.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:48:00 - [59] Edited by: Ulstan on 04/03/2008 15:48:10 Shooting people that don't shoot back isn't PvP, obviously. It's just an income generating exercise. :) People doing suicide ganking aren't in it for the PvP (or if they are, they're ******s) they're in it for the laughs and the isk. Suicide ganking is a great income generator because it can be reduced to an easily managable numbers game and because there are tons of people out there in hi sec flying around lots of isk worth of modules, all blissfully convinced they are invincible. And yes, you are definitely worth ganking even if all you have is CN stuff. 6 CN launchers is about 300 mill, 3 CN BCS about another 180 mill, so that's 480 mill total. Say that half of it is destroyed, so you're at 240 mill. Six suicide ravens costs maybe 90 mill, so the suicide gankers have made a nice profit. :) Fly T2 until CCP catches on to the problems with suicide ganking. (Which will hopefully be soon, as I'll be sad if my market for expensive deadspace modules dries up) Most likely fix is to make insurance not be paid out on suicide gank losses. That would raise the loss of a suicide raven from about 15m to about 90m. Six of those would be 540m, and suddenly a ship equipped 'only' with a handful of CN modules isn't really worth ganking.
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 15:54:00 - [60] Originally by: Darkspawned Still a few weeks/months off the streets (unable to make earnings by such methods again) as opposed to a payout from the insurance company and you're on your way with nothing more than a warning (security standing drop). Fact is that something needs to be done to address peoples' ability to break the risk Vs. reward rule and as such undoubtedly end the excessive popularity of suicide ganking. Sure, if you fly something worth a half billion there will be some folks who will try, and maybe succeed in, suicide ganking you to grab any loot that drops, but at least it will require a ship of that kind of value or higher before it's worth it to them so it'll be a far rarer incident. After a few suicide ganks you have to go spend a week in 0.0 bringing your sec status back up. It's the same thing. Half the ships we suicided dropped nothing of value. Only about 25% of the kills are really profitable.

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