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Missions - nowadays impossible with faction equipment ?

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iudex Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:00:00 - [1] I wonder what's the point of all those faction items in the LP store. One does a lot of missions to be able to get those shiny caldari navy launchers, bcus and invuls, but at the end they only increases the danger for missionrunners. Today i was ganked by 6 suiciding ravens (shinra corp) at a gate in Irjunen, after completing my mission. Pretty all of my modules were caldari navy items (except 3-4 maybe), but since the gankers get a full insurance payout, it only costs them 10-15mil to lose a raven. In my case that were 6 ships, which less than 100mil, so if someone has let's say items worth 300mil, he is already a profitable target for a 5 raven team. And there was nothing i could do, i already had 3 invuls, no big holes in the tank, but even with 3 invuls+overheat+damge control there is no way to survive this assault, so it's a pretty certain death. And since it's so profitable, it's getting more and more popular (i already complained about this in another thread before i was ganked). Does that mean missions can be done with t2 items only ? What's the point then of all that officer and faction gear, who else should buy it ? WTS: Nyx BPO +++ Angel LPs +
syphurous Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:06:00 - [2] I think suiciding is going to get looked at, purely because its becoming too common. I can Sec Staus hits becoming bigger, and/or Insurance payouts either lowering or being removed when ganking. The alternative is cargohold scanners & ship scanner getting messed with so gankers cant be sure they will profit. Guess people will just have to deal until something is changed. Originally by: GM Faolchu People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong.
Iracham Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.04 03:08:00 - [3] Originally by: syphurous Guess people will just have to deal until something is changed. Like leave Motsu.
Jack Freely Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.04 03:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Iracham Originally by: syphurous Guess people will just have to deal until something is changed. Like leave Motsu. He wasn't in Motsu, he was in the other major hub Irjunen See there is a difference
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.03.04 04:30:00 - [5] Edited by: Nasta443 on 04/03/2008 04:30:33 Nice. I hope the suiciders keep it up and bring some risk to empire. Specially to the ones that stay in NPC corps and fly faction fitted CNRs.
Myrr Aileen	Posted - 2008.03.04 08:22:00 - [6] Ok i dont want to say that i like the suicide ganking, in fact i am a mission runner aswell (without the faction stuff then...) so i kind of feel your pain. But im not sure the calculations for their cost is right, from what i remember the full insurance cost on a raven should be at least 40 mil. So either their 6 ships costed 6x40 mil insurance and some change for fittings, or they went with "non-insurance" payouts, and then... well you get the idea. Or am i missing something major here, insane non insurance payouts or free insurance for gankers or something? (Been away a while so im kinda rusty) /M
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.04 08:29:00 - [7] You get 108 mil from Raven full insurance, insurance cost is a bit below 35 mil and you can buy Raven from market at approx 85 mil nowdays. With overheating (quite common in suicide ganks as you usually never get off the 5 volleys) you will get off up to 3 volleys with torps. Ideal for mission running battleship ganking. It is even quite reasonable to use T2 siege launchers (as they are dirt cheap nowdays) with Rage torps and midslots filled with painters for maximum gank. Overall yeah, suicide ganking is pretty nobrainer nowdays. Pick anything with more than 300 .. 400 mil in fitting and you are pretty likely to score jackpot. Fortunately my locale has low enough population to not attract that kind of crowd (and my fit is cheap enough to not justify hunting for me specifically).
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.03.04 10:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Carniflex Fortunately my locale has low enough population to not attract that kind of crowd (and my fit is cheap enough to not justify hunting for me specifically). Smart mission runners stay out of the busy systems. Avoid lag. Avoid salvagers. Avoid Suiciders. Suiciding people in missions has only gotten easier, because of the increase in the number of stupid or lazy or clueless (or stupid lazy and clueless) people who don't think beyond running agents for the principle navies in hub systems. As long as there is a food supply for the suiciders they will continue to feed. CCP needn't fix anything that the playerbase can fix itself.
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 11:44:00 - [9] Why not just suggest a PVP flag so you can opt-out of pvp. Then you can spend your days safely tucked away in your private mission. That's what you really want isn't it?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.04 12:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Myrr Aileen But im not sure the calculations for their cost is right, from what i remember the full insurance cost on a raven should be at least 40 mil. So either their 6 ships costed 6x40 mil insurance and some change for fittings, or they went with "non-insurance" payouts, and then... well you get the idea. Or am i missing something major here, insane non insurance payouts or free insurance for gankers or something? /M You are missing the current prices of ships. Buying a raven cost less than the insurance payout. So adding a platinum insurace to it move the cost of the whole package (raven + insurance) 5-10 millions above insurance payout. Add some cheap module and the ganker raven cost, after insurance, fall in the 15 millions range. Get 100 millions in modules back and maybe some of your gear and you profit for losing 6 ravens. It is a bit of a gamble as you have no guarantee on what will survive, but if you do it constantly it will pay back. BTW: salvaging player faction ships give T2 salvage like for NPC faction ships?
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.03.04 12:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul BTW: salvaging player faction ships give T2 salvage like for NPC faction ships? I believe only T2 ships give T2 salvage.
Maximus Profitus	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:15:00 - [12] IMHO insurance should be void if you attack someone which provokes a Concord response. If you intentionally blow up your ship, it would only be a logical response from an insurance company to not payout insurance. This will atleast move up the threshold of when it's profitable to suicide gank.
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:20:00 - [13] Originally by: iudex Does that mean missions can be done with t2 items only ? You can do all level 4 missions with a t1-t2 tank as long as you now how the mission aggro works. A raven setup [Highs] : 6 Arbie Cruise, 1 trator beam, 1 salvager [Mids] : 1 Large t2 Shield Booster, 4 hardeners (rat specfic) can be t1, 1 cap recharger t2 [Lows] : 3 x t2 BCU, 2 PDU Drones to taste That should be able to do all level 4s without warping out. On some missions, drop a shield hardener for a Sensor booster or AB, up to you. A domi setup 1 [Highs] : 6 t2 large railguns [Mids] : 5 cap recharger t2 [Lows] : 2 LARII, 4 hardeners (rat specific, t1 or t2), 1 mag stab or whatever. Drones: Mix of sentries, heavies and mediums i find do the job quicker than a raven. Alternatively you can remove the large railguns and go with 2 tractor beams and 2 stalvagers and drone control range augmentor or some such and a medium railgun to aggro mission groups. At the end of the day, you do not need any faction stuff to do missions, simple as.
Gravecall	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:24:00 - [14] Edited by: Gravecall on 04/03/2008 13:25:01 Suicide ganking does seem to be becoming FTM at the moment.... From what I can see there are really only 2 possible fixes: 1. Make the payouts a live reflection of the cost of the ship so that many ships are not receiving bigger payouts than they actually cost. 2. Have being concorded void the payout. Seems to be the better and more popular choice. Sure you still won't put a complete end to suicide ganking since if the ship's cargo is valueable enough it may still be worth doing it on, but at least it'll end its current popularity.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:35:00 - [15] I'm curious to know the exact chain of events that occured in this (and other) suicide ganks. If they caught him when he warped to the gate, couldn't he just jump through and warp to a station on the other side? (as they would be in Ravens themselves they would have to get through the gate as well, lock him on the other side), etc. Then I hear others saying that suicide ganking is perfectly avoidable and "only the stupid get caught". If this guy just warped to the gate leading back to his agent what did he actually do wrong other than flying something attractive enough to gank?
Sabahl Minmatar Game-Over Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:36:00 - [16] IMO there should be a flag which trips if someone is ganked by a player in high sec. If triggered the player's ship drops absolutely no modules whatsoever. That'd sort it out PDQ.
Gravecall	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:40:00 - [17] Edited by: Gravecall on 04/03/2008 13:41:53 Originally by: Sabahl IMO there should be a flag which trips if someone is ganked by a player in high sec. If triggered the player's ship drops absolutely no modules whatsoever. That'd sort it out PDQ. It would indeed sort out those doing it for profit, but look at the Goonswarm suicide ganking, nothing to do with making profit from the drops. Although clearly an "anomoly" and not the normal sort of suicide ganking, it does seem to be the one ticking off the most players at the moment.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Sabahl IMO there should be a flag which trips if someone is ganked by a player in high sec. If triggered the player's ship drops absolutely no modules whatsoever. That'd sort it out PDQ. Not very logical, nor is the whole idea of a PvP flag, etc. Removal of insurance for ships destroyed by Concord is the most practical and logical solution imo. It wouldn't remove suicide ganking entirely (as it shouldn't) but it would make it more of a measured tactic rather than one where in some cases you make more back on insurance than you do what the ship cost in the first place.
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 13:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Sabahl IMO there should be a flag which trips if someone is ganked by a player in high sec. If triggered the player's ship drops absolutely no modules whatsoever. That'd sort it out PDQ. IMO there should be a flag that makes your ship explode every time I undock from a station. Game-Over is looking worse with every post.
Kusha'an Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Indigo Johnson Originally by: iudex Does that mean missions can be done with t2 items only ? You can do all level 4 missions with a t1-t2 tank as long as you now how the mission aggro works. A raven setup [Highs] : 6 Arbie Cruise, 1 trator beam, 1 salvager [Mids] : 1 Large t2 Shield Booster, 4 hardeners (rat specfic) can be t1, 1 cap recharger t2 [Lows] : 3 x t2 BCU, 2 PDU Drones to taste That should be able to do all level 4s without warping out. On some missions, drop a shield hardener for a Sensor booster or AB, up to you. A domi setup 1 [Highs] : 6 t2 large railguns [Mids] : 5 cap recharger t2 [Lows] : 2 LARII, 4 hardeners (rat specific, t1 or t2), 1 mag stab or whatever. Drones: Mix of sentries, heavies and mediums i find do the job quicker than a raven. Alternatively you can remove the large railguns and go with 2 tractor beams and 2 stalvagers and drone control range augmentor or some such and a medium railgun to aggro mission groups. At the end of the day, you do not need any faction stuff to do missions, simple as. Pretty sure that's not the point. If what you say is all that matters, then why bother having an LP store with faction gear? Some people like to have shiny toys. Moreover, the OP is likely well versed in running missions since he was able to earn all his faction gear as well, either through massive LPs or massive amounts of isk.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Durzel on 04/03/2008 14:12:26 Exactly. The OPs point is sound. What is the point of having the stuff if you can't realistically use it? My understanding is that you don't tend to use faction/officer-fit ships in PvP (unless in fleet ops) simply because of the transient nature of ships in PvP. The OP doesn't appear to be "flying something he can't afford to lose" either, if his For Sale threads are anything to go by, so you can't write this question off as a simple whine imo. What if even with the best of intentions (warp-to-zero, no AFK autopiloting, etc) you fall prey to this activity? I'd like to know the exact circumstances of this event really.
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Kusha'an Pretty sure that's not the point. If what you say is all that matters, then why bother having an LP store with faction gear? Some people like to have shiny toys. Moreover, the OP is likely well versed in running missions since he was able to earn all his faction gear as well, either through massive LPs or massive amounts of isk. So what will the point of the LP store be when everyone has a set of faction items and never has to risk losing them?
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Shinigami So what will the point of the LP store be when everyone has a set of faction items and never has to risk losing them? But is the risk fair when there is nothing (short of not flying the ship full stop) you can do to stop the gank? I'm assuming this guy did everything one might expect of someone running missions - i.e. warped to zero on the gates, etc.
Mangus Thermopyle Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:35:00 - [24] Dont concord instajam you so all you get is 1 volley? 6 ravens should not have any chance to instapop another raven running an omni tank. Or was it the cap they instantly sucked? Anyway, the current trend of suicide ganking is why I sold my 7b dominix. I might do missions in the future in a Kronos, but not as long as suicide gankers can get guaranteed profit without any risk except the known one that they will lose what they fly.
Sabahl Minmatar Game-Over Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:38:00 - [25] Edited by: Sabahl on 04/03/2008 14:38:39 Originally by: Shinigami Originally by: Sabahl IMO there should be a flag which trips if someone is ganked by a player in high sec. If triggered the player's ship drops absolutely no modules whatsoever. That'd sort it out PDQ. IMO there should be a flag that makes your ship explode every time I undock from a station. Game-Over is looking worse with every post. So I guess you were one of the team who is doing the gate ganking then? No idea who your main is but IMO gate ganking has always been the lowest form of scum-suckingness in the game. And given your reaction I am guessing you like my suggestion the least which probably means it'd be the most effective
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:41:00 - [26] Edited by: Durzel on 04/03/2008 14:42:19 Edited by: Durzel on 04/03/2008 14:41:29 Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle Dont concord instajam you so all you get is 1 volley? 6 ravens should not have any chance to instapop another raven running an omni tank. Or was it the cap they instantly sucked? Anyway, the current trend of suicide ganking is why I sold my 7b dominix. I might do missions in the future in a Kronos, but not as long as suicide gankers can get guaranteed profit without any risk except the known one that they will lose what they fly. Yeah, they insta-neut and insta-jam you as soon as they arrive on grid - but their arrival in 0.5 can be a good 20 seconds or more. I'd speculate that they neut'd his cap to 0 at which point a Raven is pretty much dead in the water unless it has some bizarre passive fit. It's a minor irony in the game that a Drake, for example, despite being a "weaker" ship than the Raven could actually withstand a suicide gank a lot better than a ship that has no cap to actively tank. There's no module in game that cuts out peoples ability to passive tank... 6 Ravens with torps is a lot of volley damage.
Space Flyer Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:45:00 - [27] Originally by: Sabahl So I guess you were one of the team who is doing the gate ganking then? No idea who your main is but IMO gate ganking has always been the lowest form of scum-suckingness in the game. And given your reaction I am guessing you like my suggestion the least which probably means it'd be the most effective Weird... I thought that the lowest form of scum-suckingness was being a carebear, carebearing while the others are fighting to defend space... ya' know!
Shinigami Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:47:00 - [28] Edited by: Shinigami on 04/03/2008 14:50:03 Originally by: Sabahl So I guess you were one of the team who is doing the gate ganking then? No idea who your main is but IMO gate ganking has always been the lowest form of scum-suckingness in the game. And given your reaction I am guessing you like my suggestion the least which probably means it'd be the most effective No I was just thinking that I'm glad you didn't come back to Shinra. I can't remember you ever doing anything but whining anyway. And how many people lose a carrier to NPCs? You shouldn't be worried about the suicide gankers to be honest.
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:49:00 - [29] Come on now Sabahl, you've participated in a little bit of ultra violencing of boats before :P -----
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2008.03.04 14:52:00 - [30] Chances are he didnt have his hardners active if he had just jumped, so getting atleast 6 volley rounds of torps in close is going to strain even the best natural resists tank, likely he had little if no time to react before going pop.

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