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CCP Breaks Insta-Undocks and Makes a Massive PvP Change

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.09 05:59:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 06:02:47 Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 05:59:44 Quote: When undocking, you now undock at maximum velocity in a 0-15 degree angle from the undock point to ease congestion around undock points. You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. So what is the story behind this? Clearly for such a massive change CCP sat in a room and carefully considered the decision, the impact on PvP and decided that people inst-undocking from stations was bad for PvP and should be removed. What is more, they decided that you should undock and depending on your lag will either be in redock range or not, essentially turning every station into a "kick out" station depending on lag. They must have discussed the impact of lag and that change on PvP, how it could be exploited and how it would change PvP. WRONG!! According to the patch notes this was made to "reduce congestion" on undock points. So immediately we wonder, "where is this congestion that makes such a problem to merit a mechanics change?" The only ones I can think of would be Jita and surrounding empire areas and some other high sec empire economic hubs. So, cutting to the chase, CCP just made a MASSIVE change with astounding impact on 0.0 PvP, handed lowsec pirates an incredibly powerful Christmas gift and incredibly altered the balance of PvP so that a lone interceptor can camp a station solo and just call when he catches something solo. They told the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor pilots that they shouldn't be needed anymore for station camps. Finally they made random server lag and their "bug free" client determine if a station is kick out; roll the dice today. They did all of that just to make sure that people in Jita don't bump into each other on the undock? Perhaps the name of their company should be changed from Crowd Control Productions to People Control Productions. At least the acronym would fit their development efforts.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:02:00 - [2] Good point. I must say it does have a rather large impact on the insta-undock points alot of us have. However, don't expect them to be changing this anytime soon. Also - while I have your attention, what is your RL job? Journo or something? Cause every thread title you make is written like a headline. Not complaining, just curious. And just for everyone else's information: I ate a big red candle. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Franga Good point. I must say it does have a rather large impact on the insta-undock points alot of us have. However, don't expect them to be changing this anytime soon. Also - while I have your attention, what is your RL job? Journo or something? Cause every thread title you make is written like a headline. Not complaining, just curious. And just for everyone else's information: I ate a big red candle. Im a senior software engineer but also an author.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:15:00 - [4] Removing insta-undocks: good. Making it so lag and ship speed determines if you can redock immediately: idiotic. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Scoundrelus Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Rells You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. ================================================== Hi Mods. Can you please write something in my sig? I wanna be cool too.
Erythron	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:17:00 - [6] I agree it's a bit odd if the 'only' reason was to reduce congestion, might be funny to watch a whole stream of people jetting away from a station at max speed though o.O perhaps they should have multiple station exits instead? I dont know if that would be better/worse for 0.0 pvp as I've never engaged in any ^_^;; and I'm not entirely sure what inst-undocking is...
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:21:00 - [7] Originally by: Scoundrelus Originally by: Rells You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. They complain plenty. And they adapt. The fact that the change was made not as a considered change but to ease undock in jita is moronic. But if the competent pvpers dont complain about stuff like this they should be willing to accept any arbitrary change made.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:34:00 - [8] This can only be bad frankly. For everyone, everywhere. Except the Jita IV-4 undock. And well quite frankly, implementing something like this that will break so much of how undocking works... without stating 'we're doing this to break insta-undocks and to break being able to dock back up after you exit station' is bull****. Want to fix Jita traffic; turn the station around. Orient the gates as insta-undocks. No problems and you've left the rest of EVE alone. Write up a fiction about how the importance of the capsuleer market hub has cause the repositioning of the star-gates and station to facilitate ease of travel and call it a day. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:40:00 - [9] Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 09/03/2008 06:41:47 Do you really believe that NOONE in the dev team reviewed the effect this would have on pvp? If I understand this correctly this possibly eliminates insta-undock ss AND removes the undock/dock game completely? Will all ships now undocking be thrown beyond the redocking parameter? If so I am at this moment standing up applauding the change. The whole undock/redock mechanic is sh1te, lets face it. The only people complaining about loosing the ability to toy with people, undocking and redocking will be the incompetent pvpers, who prefer to wave epeen boosting ships like carriers on stations, taunting campers to than redock. Its a crappy state of affairs and if this removes the undock/dock game altogether than brilliant. If it only removes instaundocking ss but retains the ability to mostly redock than yeah, I agree that wont help encourage people to get out and fight. It will remove the only flimsy option for people to get out of stations when camped in. However any decent stationcamp in 0.0 is going to have a dictor with it, so regardless of your undock alignment, you should be getting bubbled anyway. I see this effecting the low sec pie dock/undockers more than anything. Good. Oh and maybe trade hubs will become less congested as well, possibly streamlining laggy situations like 40 frieghters dancing outside the undock points in trade hubs. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Rhaegor Stormborn Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:45:00 - [10] I am okay with this change. I hate docking games. Volition Cult Recruitment Post

Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:49:00 - [11] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 09/03/2008 06:41:47 Do you really believe that NOONE in the dev team reviewed the effect this would have on pvp? Yes. At least no one that is listened to.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:50:00 - [12] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Its a crappy state of affairs and if this removes the undock/dock game altogether than brilliant. The undock/dock game should only be removed once you have the ability to look outside the station and see what the ** is out there waiting to kill you. Having to choose to undock without knowing whats out there and without the ability to dock back up is simply crap for all parties. As it stands right now lagging out for extra time means you might already be dead. It will mean you might not just already dead but you might have missed your opportunity to keep yourself alive. Quote:** it will remove the only flimsy option for people to get out of stations when camped in. However any decent stationcamp in 0.0 is going to have a dictor with it, so regardless of your undock alignment, you should be getting bubbled anyway. I see this effecting the low sec pie dock/undockers more than anything. Good. All its going to do for us is make it easier to gank people and make station camping perhaps the easiest thing for us to do. So um yeah, \o/. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Ridley Tree The undock/dock game should only be removed once you have the ability to look outside the station and see what the ** is out there waiting to kill you. Why? I can see arguements for and against that tbh. Adds alot of excitement prior to hitting undock thats for sure but yeah id have no problem with some sort of view of station mechanic internally. Might add a bit too much of an advantage to those docked up. Originally by:** Ridd All its going to do for us is make it easier to gank people and make station camping perhaps the easiest thing for us to do. So um yeah, \o/. Yep it will. I dont see a problem there either. You undock at your own risk, just like it is now, except you cant toy with the campers by docking/undocking. While I hate to assume RL mechanics too much into the game world, its pretty crappy that you cant lock someone instantly coming out of a dockyard. I mean "realistically" you would have your ass fried instantly. The brief respite ccp give atm id imagine is to allow for gridloading/server lag. Its just that the lag can exceed the timer, which I admit sucks. I therefore feel that its ok for the brief timer allowance to not being able to lock someone, make it as fair as possible. Would this eliminate gate camps? Unlikely. Would it eliminate Station camping? No. Would it increase station camping? Again, unlikely. Would it mean that station camps or fights around stations would be more likely to produce a result rather than a stalemate/ frustrating situation? Definately. I dont mind if people sit in station. I dont mind if they undock and fight. Its the undocking of carriers and tanked bs only to redock when into structure that I cant stand. Its a crappy mechanic. Fight or dont- its your choice, but if you undock you should be commiting to a fight. I believe that ccp would love to have a specific "dock" area away from the "undock" point, but we would go back to the days of thousands of bookmarks for insta docks, increasing lag. This is the best solution so far to the problem. The current system is borked, and I dont see a better alturnative than making sure undocking means you stay undocked- or slowboat back to dock range. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:18:00 - [14] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik I believe that ccp would love to have a specific "dock" area away from the "undock" point, but we would go back to the days of thousands of bookmarks for insta docks, increasing lag. Actually I just realised that you could still have insta warp to zero @ dock points for warping into station, regardless of warp in alignment. You might end up on the enviroment, but perhaps the "dock" area could extend out to maybe 5km away from station at a specific zone. The "undock" point could than be the other side of the station, therefore meaning to "redock" you would have to go around the station to redock. This wouldnt mean people would start using wtzero points but it would eliminate the dock/undock game completely Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Sikozu Prioris Suns Of Korhal deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:21:00 - [15] What ccp have failed to realise is if people wont be able to dock again after un-docking guarrenteed, alts will come forward. If I cant undock in low sec with the knowledge that if someone is waiting outside I can dock again all im going to do is use a random zero-trained suicide scout on an other account to check the way. Win for people with multiple accounts, rest of eve population loose massivily. Nice work ccp. Lol
Anya Bigtime Suicide Girls iMune Empire	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:22:00 - [16] Every windowlicker knows there's 2 sides to every window. Suicide Girls like swinging at balls, grab your bat and join today!
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:23:00 - [17] Uh-oh, someone forgot how to adapt. How about not logging or idling in stations? POSs, safespots, cloaks? I don't believe stations were meant to be used as a 'haha, can't shoot me here' location, but we will never know without comments from the almighty CCP developers.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:50:00 - [18] Rells is spot on. This is not a well thought out change. That or it's purposefully vindictive. -Dru Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:51:00 - [19] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik While I hate to assume RL mechanics too much into the game world, its pretty crappy that you cant lock someone instantly coming out of a dockyard. I mean "realistically" you would have your ass fried instantly. Realistically, you can take a look out the bloody window. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
Cipher7	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:54:00 - [20] Well look on the bright side. PvPers have been complaining about not being able to get fights due to undock/redock tactic. Now ppl who try that might not be able to redock immediately. I honestly don't think they did this just for Jita. That would be moronic.

PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.03.09 07:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik While I hate to assume RL mechanics too much into the game world, its pretty crappy that you cant lock someone instantly coming out of a dockyard. I mean "realistically" you would have your ass fried instantly. Realistically, you can take a look out the bloody window. Which I said im ok with. Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Jack Freely Trading and Industry LLC	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Ridley Tree The undock/dock game should only be removed once you have the ability to look outside the station and see what the **** is out there waiting to kill you. Having to choose to undock without knowing whats out there and without the ability to dock back up is simply crap for all parties. And you are playing without local why? When I go into Low/0.0 space, I can see who is who by watching local. Just a tip from a carebear pirate PS I would support the removal of Local as a tool for recon, but til that day I will be using it for my own gain.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:10:00 - [23] if this was to reduce congestion at "hub" systems, most especially Jita, a far simplier and less mechanic "damaging" change would have been to just rotate the Jita 4-4 station 180 degrees and actually have the undock face all the damm gates. Silly CCP always trying to reinvent the wheel when such simplier changes would make their lives and ours easier. --
Luh Windan	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:15:00 - [24] "By undocking you automatically agree to PvP" - thats what you guys are always telling us empire dwellers. Didn't see anything in the small print about it being on the terms of the undocker. Taste of your own medicine.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Jack Freely And you are playing without local why? When I go into Low/0.0 space, I can see who is who by watching local. Just a tip from a carebear pirate I'm getting tips on how to pirate? Local doesn't tell you anything about who is where inside the system. It only tells you who is in the system. Low-sec systems can have a dozen stations, 6 gates and 20 belts. That there are 12 people in local, 7 of whom are say, Black Rabbits, doesn't tell you if we are camping a gate. Sitting outside your station. Probing down a mission runner or killing some poor helpless ratter. It only tells you 7 of us are around, somewhere. Local =! let you look outside the station mate.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:24:00 - [26] Good. No more dancing the bloody station shuffle. I never liked the concepts behind insta-undocks anyway.
Plave Okice Gallente Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:33:00 - [27] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik If so I am at this moment standing up applauding the change. The whole undock/redock mechanic is sh1te, lets face it. The only people complaining about loosing the ability to toy with people, undocking and redocking will be the incompetent pvpers, who prefer to wave epeen boosting ships like carriers on stations, taunting campers to than redock. Its a crappy state of affairs and if this removes the undock/dock game altogether than brilliant. If this is how it's going to work I'm applauding it too, long time coming. Red CEORed Vs Blue
spurious signal Caldari Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:34:00 - [28] Edited by: spurious signal on 09/03/2008 08:34:48 This is an absolutely ludicrous change and I can't believe it's actually going through. When I first saw that this was happening on the test server I was certain it would be realised what a stupid idea it was and that it would never, ever make it to TQ. This is a very, very bad move for those of us with empire wars. As it stands station camping is a major problem in EVE. Dock/undock games are already bad. However, if you want a fight away from a station it is currently possible to get people out from a camped station (in any ship) if you have good tactics, good organisation and good communication. That's all going to go away with this change. It will make camping stations much more likely to happen. It will mean less actual fights since people won't be able to undock in systems with a single war target, it will mean more meta gaming as the use of alts becomes even more necessary. And to those non-pvp'ers in this thread going "hah hah taste of your own medicine" etc, wait until you get wardecced in empire and discover that a SINGLE pvp griefer can now camp you and your entire corp in any station for as long as they like. The station dock/undock mechanism needs changing, yes. But removing the ability to use tactics to get away from stations is not the way to do it.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:34:00 - [29] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik I mean "realistically" you would have your ass fried instantly. "realistically" you'd know exactly what was waiting for you prior to risking your ship, cargo and pod. "realistically" all privately owned stations would be armed to the teeth to deal with any campers and protect the owners interests... "realistically" this is among the most poorly thought out changes CCP has introduced yet. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.03.09 08:35:00 - [30] Ok so more time spent thinking. You currently undock at max velocity and then slow down to 0. You don't go that far. Generally not outside of undock unless at one of the 'kicker' stations. So not a problem to be honest. Unless we're going to be getting undocked at max speed and stay at max speed its not an issue. Stations that kick you, will continue to kick you. Stations that don't kick you right now, won't. 0-15 degree random undock means no more easy 1 book mark instas. You could put together a system of several book marks and warp to the proper one if you still desire an insta-undock. It won't always be perfect but it will probably work well enough for low-sec. So I've got to say, thread title and op (and my previous post) are likely over-exaggerating the issue. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment



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