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CCP Breaks Insta-Undocks and Makes a Massive PvP Change

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Ieu Duin Amarr Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:26:00 - [121] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 06:02:47 Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 05:59:44 Quote: When undocking, you now undock at maximum velocity in a 0-15 degree angle from the undock point to ease congestion around undock points. You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. So what is the story behind this? Clearly for such a massive change CCP sat in a room and carefully considered the decision, the impact on PvP and decided that people inst-undocking from stations was bad for PvP and should be removed. What is more, they decided that you should undock and depending on your lag will either be in redock range or not, essentially turning every station into a "kick out" station depending on lag. They must have discussed the impact of lag and that change on PvP, how it could be exploited and how it would change PvP. WRONG!! According to the patch notes this was made to "reduce congestion" on undock points. So immediately we wonder, "where is this congestion that makes such a problem to merit a mechanics change?" The only ones I can think of would be Jita and surrounding empire areas and some other high sec empire economic hubs. So, cutting to the chase, CCP just made a MASSIVE change with astounding impact on 0.0 PvP, handed lowsec pirates an incredibly powerful Christmas gift and incredibly altered the balance of PvP so that a lone interceptor can camp a station solo and just call when he catches something solo. They told the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor pilots that they shouldn't be needed anymore for station camps. Finally they made random server lag and their "bug free" client determine if a station is kick out; roll the dice today. They did all of that just to make sure that people in Jita don't bump into each other on the undock? Perhaps the name of their company should be changed from Crowd Control Productions to People Control Productions. At least the acronym would fit their development efforts. I know if you PvP regularly you feel that that is what EvE is all about and that a majority of players pursue the same play style. You would be wrong. CCP is has made a change to the game in response on an issue that effects a majority of the population of the game. If a change has a major impact to gimp PvP tactics, rest assured it is a minor blip on the Issues' screen at CCP. No one wants to see PvP go away, but get over yourself. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Barzam	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:42:00 - [122] Originally by: Ieu Duin I know if you PvP regularly you feel that that is what EvE is all about and that a majority of players pursue the same play style. You would be wrong. CCP is has made a change to the game in response on an issue that effects a majority of the population of the game. If a change has a major impact to gimp PvP tactics, rest assured it is a minor blip on the Issues' screen at CCP. No one wants to see PvP go away, but get over yourself. Wow, you are full of yourself, aren't you? "affects a majority of the population of the game" - You mean those hanging around Jita who are too lazy to use an insta of their own to get out of the damn station? How about just turning the damn station in Jita 180degrees so it faces the stargate 98% of people are trying to get to instead of having them going BACK towards the docking point and bumping on everything? So EVE is about undocking from stations in your opinion? The majority of players are only undocking and docking into stations? Sounds like a fun game to me.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:14:00 - [123] Hmmm - I don't consider this to be a great idea since instas gave you a chance to escape a hopeless situation. What if your insta warp is really far out? I would imagine that would reduce your align time with the shorter angle deviation. Might not be a bad idea to make instas with an inty going at max speed for a few minutes, and seeing if it can work. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr Free Mercenaries Union	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:54:00 - [124] Originally by: Venkul Mul It is 15¦ on both sides of the exit, so a 30¦ cone. Which is why I stated this in the original post..... Originally by: Ovno ConSyquence And just in case they mean a 30 degree cone then you would be going at 96.59% of your max which is still fast enough to warp. ... Originally by: Barzam You fail to take into account that ships turn a lot slower at max speed - especially battleships and larger ships will have a hard time to turn the 7.5 degrees required to be in line with their insta. My point is your ship doesn't have to turn to face it merely has to have a component of its velocity in the direction of its destination at greater than 75% of your max speed. Originally by: Venkul Mul And I dubt that going at wathever speed in another direction is the same as going in the right direction at 75% of your maximum speed. If I warp to an item and I am some degree off my ship turn till it is fully aligned. Can be simply an animation, but I dubt it. Well I have had it happen many times in both missions and PVP where my bs or in fact hauler is almost aligned and it warps when the speed reaches arround 80% of max because thats the point when the component becomes 75%, try it out if you want I have and it does happen. In fact the whole basis of aligning for your destination relies on it because you can't align directly at an object because the icon prevents you from double clicking in space.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr Free Mercenaries Union	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:56:00 - [125] Originally by: Venkul Mul It is 15¦ on both sides of the exit, so a 30¦ cone. Which is why I stated this in the original post..... Originally by: Ovno ConSyquence And just in case they mean a 30 degree cone then you would be going at 96.59% of your max which is still fast enough to warp. ... Originally by: Barzam You fail to take into account that ships turn a lot slower at max speed - especially battleships and larger ships will have a hard time to turn the 7.5 degrees required to be in line with their insta. My point is your ship doesn't have to turn to face it merely has to have a component of its velocity in the direction of its destination at greater than 75% of your max speed. Originally by: Venkul Mul And I dubt that going at wathever speed in another direction is the same as going in the right direction at 75% of your maximum speed. If I warp to an item and I am some degree off my ship turn till it is fully aligned. Can be simply an animation, but I dubt it. Well I have had it happen many times in both missions and PVP where my bs or in fact hauler is almost aligned and it warps when the speed reaches arround 80% of max because thats the point when the component becomes 75%, try it out if you want I have and it does happen. In fact the whole basis of aligning for your destination relies on it because you can't align directly at an object because the icon prevents you from double clicking in space.
grappler Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 - [126] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 09/03/2008 06:41:47 Do you really believe that NOONE in the dev team reviewed the effect this would have on pvp? If I understand this correctly this possibly eliminates insta-undock ss AND removes the undock/dock game completely? Will all ships now undocking be thrown beyond the redocking parameter? If so I am at this moment standing up applauding the change. The whole undock/redock mechanic is sh1te, lets face it. The only people complaining about loosing the ability to toy with people, undocking and redocking will be the incompetent pvpers, who prefer to wave epeen boosting ships like carriers on stations, taunting campers to than redock. Its a crappy state of affairs and if this removes the undock/dock game altogether than brilliant. If it only removes instaundocking ss but retains the ability to mostly redock than yeah, I agree that wont help encourage people to get out and fight. It will remove the only flimsy option for people to get out of stations when camped in. However any decent stationcamp in 0.0 is going to have a dictor with it, so regardless of your undock alignment, you should be getting bubbled anyway. I see this effecting the low sec pie dock/undockers more than anything. Good. Oh and maybe trade hubs will become less congested as well, possibly streamlining laggy situations like 40 frieghters dancing outside the undock points in trade hubs. Totally agree if you don't want to fight don't undock
Ieu Duin Amarr Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:57:00 - [127] Originally by: Barzam Originally by: Ieu Duin I know if you PvP regularly you feel that that is what EvE is all about and that a majority of players pursue the same play style. You would be wrong. CCP is has made a change to the game in response on an issue that effects a majority of the population of the game. If a change has a major impact to gimp PvP tactics, rest assured it is a minor blip on the Issues' screen at CCP. No one wants to see PvP go away, but get over yourself. Wow, you are full of yourself, aren't you? "affects a majority of the population of the game" - You mean those hanging around Jita who are too lazy to use an insta of their own to get out of the damn station? How about just turning the damn station in Jita 180degrees so it faces the stargate 98% of people are trying to get to instead of having them going BACK towards the docking point and bumping on everything? So EVE is about undocking from stations in your opinion? The majority of players are only undocking and docking into stations? Sounds like a fun game to me. If in fact the majority of the player population is in Jita, far amount of gankers there as well, then yes. CCP is responding to the majority of players with the issue of the OP. Any repercussions towards gimp PvP tactics is by far an afterthought. Not that the OP is invalid, it just has its place in the order of things. If more pilots engaged in PvP, I am sure the issues would be ordered differently. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
F90OEX	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:07:00 - [128] Totally agree if you don't want to fight don't undock This...
Tuschii Filthy Scum Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:10:00 - [129] All i have to say is Im Lovin it! --- - Omega man ~ Post with your alt, your main is stupid. -
Forino Ovoli Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:20:00 - [130] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik I can see arguements for and against that tbh. Adds alot of excitement prior to hitting undock thats for sure but yeah id have no problem with some sort of view of station mechanic internally. Might add a bit too much of an advantage to those docked up. Hmmm... So I'm in the station, I look out a viewscreen and see what ships are outside, that gives me a tactical advantage? How many sci-fi movies have had space stations? Quite a few - and in nearly all cases I can think of, they had a method of knowing what was outside the station. It is absurd to ask someone to undock in the blind if they remove the ability to redock safely.
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:24:00 - [131] Originally by: Forino Ovoli It is absurd to ask someone to undock in the blind if they remove the ability to redock safely. On a technical level, you don't have the session state info to know that. ie. I'm sure it would be a pita for the developers; possible yes, but a pain in the bum. Same with scanning the other side of a gate (also a neat idea - avoiding the need for meta-gaming when trying to avoid camps). Both of these things would be nice additions.
Gus Preston Gallente The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:38:00 - [132] Originally by: Scoundrelus Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. I second that motion. Stop whining and deal with it.
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:58:00 - [133] Originally by: F90OEX Quote: Totally agree if you don't want to fight don't undock This... There's a subtle difference between not wanting to fight, and not being able to fight due to session change lag. I know, it's a difficult concept, but try to wrap your head around it.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:02:00 - [134] I can see why Rells is upset, Agony is a ***** alliance. Proof is in the posting.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:18:00 - [135] Originally by: Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Originally by: F90OEX Quote: Totally agree if you don't want to fight don't undock This... There's a subtle difference between not wanting to fight, and not being able to fight due to session change lag. I know, it's a difficult concept, but try to wrap your head around it. noticeable session change lag is usually only in trade hubs.
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:20:00 - [136] As someone who hates the undock/redock game, I like this change but I agree with those in this thread who said players should have a way to "look out the window". Fix local with automatic scanners
Pierre Dumonte Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:29:00 - [137] I have not read the entire stream of posts, but i dont think anybody has questioned the invulnerability timer. if the timer is still intact then this is all just a waste of text. sure you get 'launched' from station in a more realistic manner, but if you are still invulnerable until you do something or timer runs out then it doesnt matter. all in all it does change some aspects of game play, and it makes it easier to camp stations. adapt people complained about warp to zero too, now we all love it. my 2 cents on this _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- He who shoots first gets to ask the questions New smaller sig picture ---> . <--- Aurora Security is recruiting visit us in "Aurora's pub" channel
Ieu Duin Amarr Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:30:00 - [138] Originally by: Terraisa Nichols As someone who hates the undock/redock game, I like this change but I agree with those in this thread who said players should have a way to "look out the window". The idea of looking out the window is a good one. Though the simplistic idea would not be affective. You would need some sort of scanner. Could a pilot use local to get an idea of who is at the door step? Undocking from a station should be a complicated affair. It is severely oversimplified in EvE. People hate real-world comparisons, but, look how long it takes to taxi from the gate to actually taking off at the airport. Imagine all the work the pilot is doing during that process. Undocking should at least be that complicated. Also, if you engage in aggressive tactics, PvP, war or any of the other activities that lead to being a victim of station camps, then you made your bed, so sleep in it. If you don't want to suffer those consequences, then do not partake in those activities. If you are at war, well war is hell. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:50:00 - [139] TBH just give us station windows. In the meantime, I'll be doing my fare share of station ganking.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:57:00 - [140] Originally by: Gus Preston Originally by: Scoundrelus Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. I second that motion. Stop whining and deal with it. Since you appear to be a pvp God, what tactic do you propose when you are outnumbered and outgunned, AND you have NO idea what's outside your station? Without an insta - you have no means to access your situation. You undock - align, war... boom you're dead. Sure you could be lucky and have a friendly scout outside the statino to give you intel - but now you're permanently stuck till the campers get bored, or you can summon up a horde to fight your way through (this would be ideal but not every player in this game has a means to even out the numbers advantage). Hmmm..... Master of Eve, tell me how do you adapt? Instas gave a chance to an outnumbered/outgunned pilot. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Raeza Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:14:00 - [141] Edited by: Raeza on 10/03/2008 18:16:13 I want station windows.... anpther bizzare idea - why can't the station teleport you 15km from the station and leave you cloaked for 30 seconds. No undock points at all
Threv Echandari Caldari Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:23:00 - [142] Originally by: Ovno ConSyquence Affraid I can't read the whole thread because i'm at work... But, with a 15 degree undock cone you could still warp to your insta-undock point. Some Maths edited out: So you can still instawarp without problems.And just in case they mean a 30 degree cone then you would be going at 96.59% of your max which is still fast enough to warp. So in fact they have not nerfed insta undocks at all and I will enjoy being able to carry on using them. ^^ This Tested on SISI in Pure Blind Stations (Just for you Rells), with Manticore, Raven and Crow, Guess what? Nothing... No Appreciable effect, I'm blasting out at speed and the ever so slight correction does not seem to mess thing up at all. This Thread is overrated and full of mispaced EMO 2 out of 10 Happiness is a Wet Pod
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:29:00 - [143] Edited by: Eventy One on 10/03/2008 18:29:27 POS's have a force field that keeps others away. One solution may be to give Outposts a similar buffer zone that keeps player not associated with the sovreingty of the system away if they don't have docking rights. Eventy One.
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:37:00 - [144] Originally by: Forino Ovoli Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik I can see arguements for and against that tbh. Adds alot of excitement prior to hitting undock thats for sure but yeah id have no problem with some sort of view of station mechanic internally. Might add a bit too much of an advantage to those docked up. Hmmm... So I'm in the station, I look out a viewscreen and see what ships are outside, that gives me a tactical advantage? How many sci-fi movies have had space stations? Quite a few - and in nearly all cases I can think of, they had a method of knowing what was outside the station. It is absurd to ask someone to undock in the blind if they remove the ability to redock safely. Actually you have a way too powerful method of knowing. It`s called local chat. Your system is full of enemies and you still want to undock? Ask one of your friends to scout you. It`s a multiplayer game.
Tolarus Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:42:00 - [145] Edited by: Tolarus on 10/03/2008 18:45:34 I fully support this change. Way overdue imo
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:47:00 - [146] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Originally by: Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Originally by: F90OEX Quote: Totally agree if you don't want to fight don't undock This... There's a subtle difference between not wanting to fight, and not being able to fight due to session change lag. I know, it's a difficult concept, but try to wrap your head around it. noticeable session change lag is usually only in trade hubs. I beg to differ. Go fight in Delve and you'll see.
Guillame Herschel Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:51:00 - [147] Will the undocking ship remain invulnerable for 15 seconds (is that the right interval)? If so, then fast ships could coast at top speed out of any station camp's bubble and warp off before any of the campers were permitted to start locking him. That wasn't possible before. Don't cry nerf until you've seen it in action. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. --*
Quebnaric Deile Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:53:00 - [148] Long over due! So CCP, when you removing local?
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:29:00 - [149] Originally by: Tolarus Edited by: Tolarus on 10/03/2008 19:23:18 I fully support this change. Way overdue imo Originally by: Omarvelous Since you appear to be a pvp God, what tactic do you propose when you are outnumbered and outgunned, AND you have NO idea what's outside your station? Im no PvP god but I'll offer some free advice... dont undock? Fly an alt in there as a scout? *Also, dont go thinking that this change has "handed low sec to the prats", its going to effect them just like everyone else. They wont be able to insta doc when they figure out that hauler they are shooting was only a decoy. It'll be ok, I promise At least with an insta, I have a chance to recoup and re-engage. Staying docked is um - not fighting, which I don't like. An alt-scout, a good idea if you have 2 accounts (not everyone does, nor should they be required to do so). Seeing as how a 15 degree arc is still allowing an insta undock, I have no problem with this change. P.S. I'd rather all stations shoot you past the undock point for the sake of consistancy and to eliminate annoying dock/undock games. I just want an option to escape low-sec station camps since I tend to be outnumbered a lot these days. Since this is still the case - this thread is moot. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:54:00 - [150] Originally by: Eventy One Edited by: Eventy One on 10/03/2008 18:29:27 POS's have a force field that keeps others away. One solution may be to give Outposts a similar buffer zone that keeps player not associated with the sovreingty of the system away if they don't have docking rights. Eventy One. Yep, I like this idea very much. At the very least it begins to make the gameplay align with the storyline to the point things make sense.

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