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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.03.09 08:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: spurious signal Edited by: spurious signal on 09/03/2008 08:34:48 This is an absolutely ludicrous change and I can't believe it's actually going through.
When I first saw that this was happening on the test server I was certain it would be realised what a stupid idea it was and that it would never, ever make it to TQ.
This is a very, very bad move for those of us with empire wars. As it stands station camping is a major problem in EVE. Dock/undock games are already bad. However, if you want a fight away from a station it is currently possible to get people out from a camped station (in any ship) if you have good tactics, good organisation and good communication.
That's all going to go away with this change. It will make camping stations much more likely to happen. It will mean less actual fights since people won't be able to undock in systems with a single war target, it will mean more meta gaming as the use of alts becomes even more necessary.
And to those non-pvp'ers in this thread going "hah hah taste of your own medicine" etc, wait until you get wardecced in empire and discover that a SINGLE pvp griefer can now camp you and your entire corp in any station for as long as they like.
The station dock/undock mechanism needs changing, yes. But removing the ability to use tactics to get away from stations is not the way to do it.
If you can't break the camp, you don't deserve to be able to try to escape repeatedly risk-free. And if an entire corp is camped in by one PvPer, well, they don't deserve to exist in the first place.
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Lurd
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Posted - 2008.03.09 08:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Luh Windan "By undocking you automatically agree to PvP" - thats what you guys are always telling us empire dwellers. Didn't see anything in the small print about it being on the terms of the undocker.
Taste of your own medicine.
LOL, this guy has it right. "deal with it", "adapt or go back to WOW" are the standard responses to such whines. Can the carebears have your stuff?
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.09 08:42:00 -
[33]
Won't be a major issue tbh. You'll still be able to play the dock/undock game, just instantly bypassing station camping (thus rendering station camping pointless) Isn't going to be so easy. ...
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.09 08:52:00 -
[34]
I'm going to laugh at the constant stream of rookie ships heading into nowhere outside Jita 4-4
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
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Roxanna Kell
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.09 09:17:00 -
[35]
Quote: insta-undock points
= Running AWAY, I can see how getting out may make you pvp more, but most of people just use it to run away.
Quote: You are what you are, fool
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.03.09 09:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ridley Tree
/edit/
To be honest and for full disclosure. I've lost ships and full heads of expensive implants on multiple occasions to undocking to a black screen, lag and then getting the 'loading station environment' deal. In low-sec. In systems that had only 3-4 other people in it.
Would you say this is the exception or the rule for the majority of players? I am well aware and have been the victim of laggy situations, including session changes/undocking BUT I dont think its THAT common in low pilot count situations. Fleets- definately, but small gang pvp its not.
Originally by: Ridd The occasions you are most likely to experience game destroying lag outside of massive fleet engagements is session changes.
Cant argue with that. But I dont think we should be using the possibility of lag (which may or may not occur) to govern the undocking mechanic. If you BSOD (black screen of death) and you are up against odds that mean you are dying before grid loading than chances are the only way you were going to survive that encounter would be to either instawarp or redock, which is exactly the problem in the first place. There are perhaps exceptions such as stupidly long session change times/laggy conditions across the server, but if you are undocking into a 5-10man camp solo in even a good tanking ship, you are going to die anyway- or load grid and begin tanking in time. The only difference now is whether you will be able to redock instantly the fight goes against you and you deagress.
Another person raised the concern of an increase in alt scouts. I personally dont think its going to get much worse than it is now anyway. It does however mean that people will not be able to undock carriers or heavily tanked ships etc without risk.
you could consider intel a "reward"- why should that be given away without "risk" to someone camped in station?
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Mozqito
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Posted - 2008.03.09 09:52:00 -
[37]
It was actually like this a few years ago. Then they changed it to that ships stop after undocking. Personally I always hated that change, so I welcome this. Feels better to me that ships actually travel after having initiated travel.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:04:00 -
[38]
Hi there, get jumpclones, dont log in stations, train up secondary character, whatever.
See ? Dealt with. It's really really easy, don't whine that you can't get out 100% of the time at 0% risk.
[center] Old blog |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:09:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jack Freely
Originally by: Ridley Tree The undock/dock game should only be removed once you have the ability to look outside the station and see what the **** is out there waiting to kill you. Having to choose to undock without knowing whats out there and without the ability to dock back up is simply crap for all parties.
And you are playing without local why? When I go into Low/0.0 space, I can see who is who by watching local. Just a tip from a carebear pirate
PS I would support the removal of Local as a tool for recon, but til that day I will be using it for my own gain.
Local is not the equivalent of "Who is outside of this station?"
This is simply another nail in the coffin of low sec trade. Leaving a station whit anyone in system today is becoming even more a bad option.
For traders time is isk. Spending more time to wait for the system to be empty mean less isk. So even less interest in low sec trading.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:15:00 -
[40]
Hey Agony whiner, I got some great cheese with that ... hehehe you know
"The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of gold"
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Mozqito
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Venkul Mul This is simply another nail in the coffin of low sec trade. Leaving a station whit anyone in system today is becoming even more a bad option.
For traders time is isk. Spending more time to wait for the system to be empty mean less isk. So even less interest in low sec trading.
Something tells me an indy won't move quickly enough to disallow insta-redocking should it want to.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:28:00 -
[42]
I think we don't have enought info yet. Currently you can undock and stay immune for 30 sec, then redock in case the station is camped. Undocking with speed can be an issue for some stations (for the big caldari ones it doesn't change anything, even a shuttle doesn't get out of docking range in 30 secs).
What people assume here is that we lose that immunity for 30 secs, but that's not in the notes afaik, you will remain immune but just be at speed. Noone said that you lose that target invulnerability with the patch, so that bad side effect is limited to small stations.
If for whatever reasons we'd lose that immunity aswell (which then has nothing to do with "reducing congestion") this would indeed be a huge problem for lowsec and pirate space.
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 09/03/2008 06:41:47 Do you really believe that NOONE in the dev team reviewed the effect this would have on pvp?
Noone except Zulupark perhaps.
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Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2008.03.09 10:50:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ridley Tree on 09/03/2008 10:52:03
Quote: There are perhaps exceptions such as stupidly long session change times/laggy conditions across the server, but if you are undocking into a 5-10man camp solo in even a good tanking ship, you are going to die anyway- or load grid and begin tanking in time. The only difference now is whether you will be able to redock instantly the fight goes against you and you deagress.
Ok so how this currently works on test server.
You get ejected at a speed slightly higher than your max. You slow down to your max. You keep traveling max speed unless you stop your ship. It takes my mega ... (goes to test server) ... yeah ok. I stopped counting at a minute and a half. Takes more than a minute and a half for my 160m/s unfitted Megathron to even register more than 0 m away from the FD- station. It takes my Falcon ... yep, more than a minute at full speed to even get the 0m distance to tick up. home station in low-sec. According to the tactical overview it takes about 40km away from the undock port before I register as more than 0m away from the station. Which btw is actually 3 minutes worth of travel.
The only change this is likely to make to gameplay is
1) No more insta undocks... maybe. 2) Stations that have big docking rings = no change whatsoever. 3) Stations with small docking rings = lag can make you vulnerable to being blown up.
Thats it. In other words. It doesn't change anything other than insta-undocks. And based on the test server... I think insta-undocks will still likely be viable. The only real change coming out of this is that if you suffer from say 20-30 seconds of load-up lag on a small docking ring station you might be outside docking range and thusly getting ganked. As long as you don't suffer from lag you just hit fullstop, putz around and dock back up. If you do suffer from lag... well screw you right?
So I suppose the basic summary of this is. It changes almost nothing. Which is why its not being thought about as a change to PVP... because well... its probably not going to change it much at all. ____
Black Rabbits Recruitment |
Theodolite
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn I am okay with this change. I hate docking games.
This. It nerfs dock/undock****s. woot.
Undock carrier, **** about, redock under fire? Nope undock logistics, rep ships, redock ? nope
rells, i hear you go on alot about "what competent pilots do". unfortunately, you don't appear to be one, so please stop posting. A competent alliance will have eyes on the station.
This is also a stealth boost for covert ops.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:30:00 -
[46]
Solution: allow the use of a scanner while still in station. Possibly nerfed to a range of a few hundred Km (ie: local grid).
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Theodolite This. It nerfs dock/undock****s. woot.
Undock carrier, **** about, redock under fire? Nope undock logistics, rep ships, redock ? nope
This modification in no way stops you from doing any of that. Sorry. ____
Black Rabbits Recruitment |
SinBin
Gallente HARDC0RE
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:47:00 -
[48]
OMG I cant belive there actualy putting this on TQ, I seen it on sisi but never think ccp would put it live.
Lag death undock posts are gunno sky rocket from all sides, I think its fair to assume now no devs still play lag-online or is it grief-online.
Maybe in the next boost patch they can remove the after jump cloack.
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Cybele Lanier
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:54:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ridley Tree The undock/dock game should only be removed once you have the ability to look outside the station and see what the **** is out there waiting to kill you.
I always wondered about that. For all that some space station designs have thousands of windows, it seems to be impossible for anyone to actually look through them.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:55:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mozqito
Originally by: Venkul Mul This is simply another nail in the coffin of low sec trade. Leaving a station whit anyone in system today is becoming even more a bad option.
For traders time is isk. Spending more time to wait for the system to be empty mean less isk. So even less interest in low sec trading.
Something tells me an indy won't move quickly enough to disallow insta-redocking should it want to.
Something tell me that you don't use a indy for low sec trading if you can use something better.
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Maaku
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:59:00 -
[51]
Up until now, the "undocking ship sits there invulnerable for thirty seconds and can redock without being shot" stupidity canceled out the "someone wanting to undock has no way, other than outside assistance via alt or other players, to know what's waiting for him outside the station" stupidity. Neither makes any real sort of sense, both are awkward game mechanics created because it was the easiest way to do things.
A mechanism where a docked pilot could see what's outside the station should become a top priority. It shouldn't be that hard to display an overview relative to the undocking point to a player inside the station. Additionally, I could see the value of alerting ships outside the station that a ship is in the process of undocking, just to balance things out.
If such a mechanism is provided, I think the result would be a vast improvement over what we have now. It could allow for a coordinated breakout effort from a camped station, and the possibility of pitched battles outside stations, which I imagine a lot of people would be very excited about.
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Polaris Lumine
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:07:00 -
[52]
This benefits station campers and no one else. The dock/undock game people complain about is usually as a result of a gank squad station camping, which is just as lame imho. All that will happen now is that the game will be even more awash with station campers and those who perhaps would have undocked, insta-warped out, and set up an engagement will now stay firmly docked.
Very short-sighted view by CCP imho. -- Polaris Lumine
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Drako Krakin
Okkelen Defense Force
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:07:00 -
[53]
Well, not really certain how this will be implemented. I suspect the undock at max spend and keep it at max speed as on Sisi. So maybe the insta-undocks will be borked.
However, the undock/redock game can continue. You simply undock and while still black-screen you "ctrl + space bar" and your ship stops. You are invul for 30 seconds. As your screen loads you can redock if you need to. If on the other hand your screen does not load in 30 seconds, you are dead. Well with the previous system of undocking you would have been dead as well. So, what is the big issue with the undock/redock?
Originally by: Barbens Make sure to reprocess your character, someone might want that name.
BaRbEnS
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Brainless Bimbo
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:16:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 09/03/2008 12:24:52
I noticed that its was posted under the heading: "Player Own Structures"and everything there is related to said structures, so exactly how many player owned structures does the OP think there exactly are in Jita?
It could be a ploy to make you "be friends" or make you actually really control space to ensure your corp/alliance members safety, its your POS in your empire out in 0.0, so if its not safe to undock at speed you don't actually control the terratory and your claim on it could be considered bogus.
... continued overleaf |
Grim Vandal
Caldari Burn Proof
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Polaris Lumine This benefits station campers and no one else. The dock/undock game people complain about is usually as a result of a gank squad station camping, which is just as lame imho. All that will happen now is that the game will be even more awash with station campers and those who perhaps would have undocked, insta-warped out, and set up an engagement will now stay firmly docked.
Very short-sighted view by CCP imho.
Honestly I would bump you out of docking range with a bumpageddon. Actually I really hate the bumping mechanic in eve but you force it on me to use it on you which really just increases all this metagaming nonsense.
EVERYTHING INSTA related is plane old lame. When can we expect for WTZ to vanish?
Greetings Grim |
SinBin
Gallente HARDC0RE
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Drako Krakin
However, the undock/redock game can continue. You simply undock and while still black-screen you "ctrl + space bar" and your ship stops.
If you "cntl + space" your dead as can now be locked I assume as you interact with the world ?.
The change is only relivent for mobbed hubs & mission systems & thats mostly peoples own fault/greed & there is better things could be done, many in ideas forum already.
Maybe it could only be high sec station since thats the only mobbed docking rings ?.
Fast ships & nano boats I think could easly outrun alot of docking rings, some 0.0 station are very small & all so a few poeple dont bash about in a busy system.
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ragewind
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:36:00 -
[57]
so no safe undocking means that pepole will just have to adapt... yep thats a good thing.....for lag
if this happens you will have a load of extra trial acounts made ever 14 days that just folow pepole around just used to check station.
jita local will increase by a 1/3 everone that goses there will stil do so so everone who has a war active will just take an alt/trial with them to check that they can safely undock
for the sake of lag just trun jita 4-4 around not add this.
also the dock undock game can actually add to game, yes itsseems lame they can dock up and then undock repeatedly but when you are board with systems locked down it gives you something to do and its awesome when you finally get the smug git that thought he was immune
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: SinBin
Originally by: Drako Krakin
However, the undock/redock game can continue. You simply undock and while still black-screen you "ctrl + space bar" and your ship stops.
If you "cntl + space" your dead as can now be locked I assume as you interact with the world ?.
Wrong, and if people actually tested stuff on sisi instead of using it as a pvp practice area, this would have been stated by the OP.
Undock BM's still work.
Clicking stop after undocking will leave your ship hanging within re-dock range of the station, and you will retain your 30 second invulnerability timer.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:42:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Originally by: Polaris Lumine This benefits station campers and no one else. The dock/undock game people complain about is usually as a result of a gank squad station camping, which is just as lame imho. All that will happen now is that the game will be even more awash with station campers and those who perhaps would have undocked, insta-warped out, and set up an engagement will now stay firmly docked.
Very short-sighted view by CCP imho.
Honestly I would bump you out of docking range with a bumpageddon. Actually I really hate the bumping mechanic in eve but you force it on me to use it on you which really just increases all this metagaming nonsense.
EVERYTHING INSTA related is plane old lame. When can we expect for WTZ to vanish?
When Satan skis to work after a hearty breakfast of flying-pig bacon, then treads in some rocking-horse **** after watching a televised broadcast of a traffic cop admitting he made a mistake.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Tzrailasa on 09/03/2008 12:54:28 Very nice change in fact 1. It relieves congestion in Jita 4-4. 2. It largely prevents undock-dock games (hooray!).
For those whining about being stuck in stations.... a. Get friends to scout/fight you out b. Don't log off in stations c. Getting blown up doesn't actually hurt
As said, nice change unless Alski is right.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
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