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Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:59:00 - [151] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Will the undocking ship remain invulnerable for 15 seconds (is that the right interval)? If so, then fast ships could coast at top speed out of any station camp's bubble and warp off before any of the campers were permitted to start locking him. That wasn't possible before. Don't cry nerf until you've seen it in action. 30 seconds, and yes, with a base speed of ~700m/s you can cruise out of a dictor bubble that is placed centered on the undock point. Also as i've said already, your 30 second invulnerability timer remains intact even if you click zero speed after undocking, which will leave you in docking range, and insta-undock BM's still work. This reply isent so much directed at you Guillame, but to everyone who is whineing without haveing tested anything or read what those who have tested it are saying. This really doesent change anything except jita traffic jams and the dangers of undocking in a laggy system. - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:07:00 - [152] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 06:02:47 Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 05:59:44 Quote: When undocking, you now undock at maximum velocity in a 0-15 degree angle from the undock point to ease congestion around undock points. You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. So what is the story behind this? Clearly for such a massive change CCP sat in a room and carefully considered the decision, the impact on PvP and decided that people inst-undocking from stations was bad for PvP and should be removed. What is more, they decided that you should undock and depending on your lag will either be in redock range or not, essentially turning every station into a "kick out" station depending on lag. They must have discussed the impact of lag and that change on PvP, how it could be exploited and how it would change PvP. WRONG!! According to the patch notes this was made to "reduce congestion" on undock points. So immediately we wonder, "where is this congestion that makes such a problem to merit a mechanics change?" The only ones I can think of would be Jita and surrounding empire areas and some other high sec empire economic hubs. So, cutting to the chase, CCP just made a MASSIVE change with astounding impact on 0.0 PvP, handed lowsec pirates an incredibly powerful Christmas gift and incredibly altered the balance of PvP so that a lone interceptor can camp a station solo and just call when he catches something solo. They told the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor pilots that they shouldn't be needed anymore for station camps. Finally they made random server lag and their "bug free" client determine if a station is kick out; roll the dice today. They did all of that just to make sure that people in Jita don't bump into each other on the undock? Perhaps the name of their company should be changed from Crowd Control Productions to People Control Productions. At least the acronym would fit their development efforts. Giggles at angry person.
Zarin	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:07:00 - [153] Undocking needs to be a two step process (if desired), loading the outside environment, then ejecting the ship. Realistically all ships that undock should be able to dock again (because in NPC stations the parties waiting for them have no trouble docking themselves so why should the undocking party get ALL of the disadvantages). There's also the option of increasing the aggression timer so that it's harder to undock, shoot something then dock, if that is the main problem. Other than that I don't see it? Give all stations a 20km dock range and you end up going back to fighting where you should be, at gates and on belts, and general space. Which IMO is much preferable to doing things like anchoring automated guns at outposts. I don't like so much that people can run back to the station if you're camping it though, if they are elsewhere in the system there should probably be a way to prevent that. But lets face it, if they are already in the station they are 'safe' and the only way that should change is if they commit to something (trying to warp/shoot anything other than just 'looking' because with lag the way it is, you can sometimes spend minutes undocking wondering if you are already dead, the game mechanic needs to change to deal with the lag.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:09:00 - [154] Originally by: Rod Blaine Hi there, get jumpclones, dont log in stations, train up secondary character, whatever. See ? Dealt with. It's really really easy, don't whine that you can't get out 100% of the time at 0% risk. Same as him.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:23:00 - [155] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 10/03/2008 22:23:56 Originally by: Rod Blaine See ? Dealt with. It's really really easy, don't whine that you can't get out 100% of the time at 0% risk. The risk should be in combat, not in session changes. If we want good fights, we need mechanics that allow players to becomes fully enaged in the session with out fail, before combat can even be considered by either party. If you want meta-gaming ganks online, keep the status quo. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:53:00 - [156] A ship undocking at maximum velocity is seriously bugged (unless my dread sudden got a speed boost up to 500 m/s). Last video: Pride, Honor & Retribution
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:14:00 - [157] Originally by: Rells Blah blah Test before you cry next time. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Kwitch Caldari eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:13:00 - [158] I'll take some more cheese please. To be completely honest, CCP gets to dictate how PvP works. We get to complain about it. CCP gets to do whatever they like regardless of your whining, but will take serious, considerate and well thought-out suggestions to heart. We ignore this fact and continue to carry on like toddlers deprived kool-aid. Remember having to make safespots to warp to 0 to stargates? CCP didn't like this workaround to their prior created pvp scenario. Warp to 0 was installed, regardless if you disagree, because this was the way to incorporate the use of instas into the game and prove their stance as controlling the pvp model. I'm not going to argue how frustrating trying to pvp with someone that plays 'dockey jockey' is because that's the system, and we work around it. I won't argue that this would affect carebears and non-nano ships immensely, and anyone who wants to undock and dock 20 times within 5 minutes. it's CCP's game. We just live in it. Someone said it earlier up very well 'real pvp'ers adapt'. and low sec and 0.0 is for pvp'ers. ergo-sum those affected most by it would be those taking risks in low sec regardless, and would have one less 'work around' to avoid pvp. I sincerely doubt station congestion is the only reason this change will be coming into effect. CCP is very good at considering all aspects of their patch changes. I doubt 'Random accelerated undock to ensure PvP'ers will be able to shoot you when you undock' would have had a much warmer reception. A better argument would have been "Why is CCP favoring agility-based setups for PvP engagements in systems that contain stations?" Try arguing that, rather then just flaming CCP. -- Read of my adventures: Born Dusty - Feeds from a random spaceman
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:17:00 - [159] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Rells Blah blah Test before you cry next time. I'm thinking a 15 degree angle shouldn't be all that bad or ruin all of my undocks, but I'm gonna have to find out after the change... I think the ship will still be able to warp, unless you've offcentered your undock in the first place. Of course I could be completely wrong... but we'll see. ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Kwitch Caldari eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:29:00 - [160] Originally by: Omarvelous Since you appear to be a pvp God, what tactic do you propose when you are outnumbered and outgunned, AND you have NO idea what's outside your station? Without an insta - you have no means to access your situation. You undock - align, war... boom you're dead. Sure you could be lucky and have a friendly scout outside the station to give you intel - but now you're permanently stuck till the campers get bored, or you can summon up a horde to fight your way through (this would be ideal but not every player in this game has a means to even out the numbers advantage). Hmmm..... Master of Eve, tell me how do you adapt? Instas gave a chance to an outnumbered/outgunned pilot. If you remove that - then at least give the pilot a means to know what is outside so they can plan and 'adapt' <to use your tired cliche>. I was camped in a station in empire without an instant undock for 2 weeks by 5 mercenary corporations. I knew if I undocked I would die very quickly. I did not need windows to tell me this. I used local, knew what security status on a system meant. Was able to observe people coming and going in local chat. Fun tool, check it out sometime. To escape from that system, I was able to do 3 different things. I was able to spend a small amount of isk to move my clone to a different medical, died, and voila. I was able to undock in a shuttle, use the invulnerability timer, and instant align away (same with a pod). I was also able to tank a ship and watch them die to sentry guns. This is an mmorpg. Meaning you are susceptible to other people interacting with you on a schedule you do not necessarily control. Learn up trading skills, gave me something to do when someone was dedicated to killing me and I was able to thwart him several times over. mind over matter mate. -- Read of my adventures: Born Dusty - Feeds from a random spaceman
Silas Beit Joyriders INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:45:00 - [161] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 06:02:47 Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 05:59:44 Quote: When undocking, you now undock at maximum velocity in a 0-15 degree angle from the undock point to ease congestion around undock points. You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. So what is the story behind this? Clearly for such a massive change CCP sat in a room and carefully considered the decision, the impact on PvP and decided that people inst-undocking from stations was bad for PvP and should be removed. What is more, they decided that you should undock and depending on your lag will either be in redock range or not, essentially turning every station into a "kick out" station depending on lag. They must have discussed the impact of lag and that change on PvP, how it could be exploited and how it would change PvP. WRONG!! According to the patch notes this was made to "reduce congestion" on undock points. So immediately we wonder, "where is this congestion that makes such a problem to merit a mechanics change?" The only ones I can think of would be Jita and surrounding empire areas and some other high sec empire economic hubs. So, cutting to the chase, CCP just made a MASSIVE change with astounding impact on 0.0 PvP, handed lowsec pirates an incredibly powerful Christmas gift and incredibly altered the balance of PvP so that a lone interceptor can camp a station solo and just call when he catches something solo. They told the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor pilots that they shouldn't be needed anymore for station camps. Finally they made random server lag and their "bug free" client determine if a station is kick out; roll the dice today. They did all of that just to make sure that people in Jita don't bump into each other on the undock? Perhaps the name of their company should be changed from Crowd Control Productions to People Control Productions. At least the acronym would fit their development efforts. Yeah I cant be bothered to read your entire angry post but I got the jist from the topic. I like to think of Insta-Undocks as a 'go go go' 'Scramble' tactic used if hostiles decide to camp the station we're in and we need to deploy quickly. ofc if this is changed then I am sure there will be other zany tactics invented to get round it. also your angry WRONG!! reminded me of of that bit on Superman returns http://www.save-evetv.com/ - http://spydrwear.spreadshirt.net
Zarda Sulan	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:02:00 - [162] Originally by: Kwitch I'll take some more cheese please. it's CCP's game. We just live in it. Someone said it earlier up very well 'real pvp'ers adapt'. and low sec and 0.0 is for pvp'ers. ergo-sum those affected most by it would be those taking risks in low sec regardless, and would have one less 'work around' to avoid pvp. . I may be new but I can say that it may be CCP's game but its not a free to play game where the custoemrs dotn have any say in theway its run- its a monthly subscription game- if CCP choose to ignore the masses they simplly loose out on subscriptions - as simple as that.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:21:00 - [163] Oh, bloody whiners. Think about the important things. It solves the Jita 4-4 undock congestion! Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:12:00 - [164] Originally by: ZerKar Seems funny to me that you still have not caught on to the fact that CCP is moving towards 0 Avoidance and 100% Committment to battle. The HIC was the obvious first nail in the coffin of anyone who wanted to escape from combat, they will just continue along that ideal until it is impossible to escape meaning that everyone everywhere HAS to fight if they undock. On a good note though, it will make staying docked up with ambulation more worthwhile. ITT: people whining about eve's harsh environ...one which you EXPLICITLY signed up for. ____________________________________________ Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
Polonium 210	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:55:00 - [165] Station winsows won't save you from a cloaked rapier at undock.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:40:00 - [166] Originally by: Esmenet Test before you cry next time. Taking this wonderful advice, I went ahead and tested this out to get a real feel for what post-change instas are going to be like. And here's my conclusion: Warping to an object 30 degrees from the direction you are piloting at full speed takes approximately 13% less time than warping from a complete standstill. An object 15% from your target (maximum proposed deviation) takes approximately 30% less time than from complete standstill. This means that current instas may still work in some cases, but are going to be unreliable. Any made after this change are going to be totally broken since there is no way to know where the deviation starts without an insta already made.
Strags	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:52:00 - [167] Originally by: Scoundrelus Originally by: Rells You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. Haha! As in SWG... ROFL! Adapt to what? cookie cutter, NGE, CU? Discussion is prudent. You call it complaining... I call it airing out player concerns and "discussing" a viable topic.
Yaay Dum Spiro Spero	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:57:00 - [168] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 06:02:47 Edited by: Rells on 09/03/2008 05:59:44 Quote: When undocking, you now undock at maximum velocity in a 0-15 degree angle from the undock point to ease congestion around undock points. You have to be kidding me! Let me get this straight. CCP totally nerfed insta-undocks which are used by every competent PvP pilot in 0.0. So what is the story behind this? Clearly for such a massive change CCP sat in a room and carefully considered the decision, the impact on PvP and decided that people inst-undocking from stations was bad for PvP and should be removed. What is more, they decided that you should undock and depending on your lag will either be in redock range or not, essentially turning every station into a "kick out" station depending on lag. They must have discussed the impact of lag and that change on PvP, how it could be exploited and how it would change PvP. WRONG!! According to the patch notes this was made to "reduce congestion" on undock points. So immediately we wonder, "where is this congestion that makes such a problem to merit a mechanics change?" The only ones I can think of would be Jita and surrounding empire areas and some other high sec empire economic hubs. So, cutting to the chase, CCP just made a MASSIVE change with astounding impact on 0.0 PvP, handed lowsec pirates an incredibly powerful Christmas gift and incredibly altered the balance of PvP so that a lone interceptor can camp a station solo and just call when he catches something solo. They told the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor pilots that they shouldn't be needed anymore for station camps. Finally they made random server lag and their "bug free" client determine if a station is kick out; roll the dice today. They did all of that just to make sure that people in Jita don't bump into each other on the undock? Perhaps the name of their company should be changed from Crowd Control Productions to People Control Productions. At least the acronym would fit their development efforts. B/C Insta undock points were borderline exploit? And competent PVP corps don't rely on them, they rely on fighting their way out of a station in the first place. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:12:00 - [169] Originally by: Yaay And competent PVP corps don't rely on them, they rely on idealy not being caught docked or fighting their way out of a station in the first place. Yeah, why use a good working tactic when you can use raw force instead...
Khonn Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:33:00 - [170] Why doesn't CCP just make it more interesting for the station campers as well, and add in station owner controlled sentry guns. You know the indestructable kind. Make it interesting for both sides of the fight. Have controls like the POS guns but you have to be inside the station to control them. Have a loadup that visually takes you out of the station and you can see what is outside, lock, load, and shoot. That would be kinda interesting if you ask me. Makes for quick locking ships to be alittle more on their toes while sitting next to a hostils station. Khonn ps. didnt' read all 6 pages, so maybe this has already been mentioned. Sorry if that's the case.
Natalie Jax Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:49:00 - [171] Best realistic idea I've seen in this thread is to make undocking a 2-stage process. Let the game load the session outside of the station, allowing you to see what is outside the station, then letting you choose whether or not you complete the undock (putting your ship into space) or not. Undocking should carry risk, and I kinda like this change as it gives a bit of advantage to those outside the station. However, hopping out of station blind has never made a lick of sense to me.
Khonn Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:16:00 - [172] Originally by: Natalie Jax Best realistic idea I've seen in this thread is to make undocking a 2-stage process. Let the game load the session outside of the station, allowing you to see what is outside the station, then letting you choose whether or not you complete the undock (putting your ship into space) or not. Undocking should carry risk, and I kinda like this change as it gives a bit of advantage to those outside the station. However, hopping out of station blind has never made a lick of sense to me. Or, basically load the outside environment to a black screen and have a window come up saying that everything is loaded and asking if you want to proceed. Get an ok or a cancel option. Ok, undocks you with little to no lag because it should already be loaded. This ensures you get your full 30 seconds to make your decision. Cancel takes you from the black screen and puts you back into station without people ouside being able to see your ship at all. With the same token, you don't see them either. Khonn
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:59:00 - [173] I seriously doubt that they even stopped to consider what this would do to undock bookmarks. SNAFU Sure, something probably needed done about docking point congestion. But a little more careful consideration would not have hurt. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:28:00 - [174] Originally by: Khonn Or, basically load the outside environment to a black screen and have a window come up saying that everything is loaded and asking if you want to proceed. Get an ok or a cancel option. Doesn't address the main issue. The problem is the lack of information available to undocking player. Same holds true for jumping gates. And no, the tired canards of get an alt or get a scout do not address the problem. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:46:00 - [175] Originally by: Cpt Branko Oh, bloody whiners. Think about the important things. It solves the Jita 4-4 undock congestion! It was never a problem for me. I just head straight forward, turn on mwd and warp to the other station at 70 once I'm clear. From there I can warp to where I want.
Zarlak Caldari Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:54:00 - [176] if you guys want a window to look out of, i want to be able to lock that window and send a torpedoe through it blasting you to smithereens stop whining industrialists should not be safe in 0.4 -> 0.1 its not a nice place, bad people like me hang about, hence why there is no concordes, if you want life to be full of fluffy carebears, stay in fluffy carebear space, you know that its unsafe in 0.4 thats why a warning window comes up the first time you try to jump, and you guys click "dont remind me again" and talking about ccp getting cheap fixes etc etc i think its just the industrialists crying because being in unsafe space actually is now a risk, which damn right it should be so dont whine when it bites back at you as they said on the tournement, eve is now a team game, so work like a team, get intel, talk to people, if your camped in a station, your not gonna get out anyway, unless you play the dock/undock game which is *** and that should be stopped since people keep mentioning "realistically" "realistically" 20 ships undocking at once and colliding with each other would all explode, set on fire, have smashed windows and exposed decks and people floating out into space because an unlucky ibis got smashed into front behind by the vagabond so therefore theyd all undock in different directions -------------------------- Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast
Lo3d3R MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:31:00 - [177] Edited by: Lo3d3R on 11/03/2008 22:31:49 I hope CCP will make sure that when you undock you will be atleast 5000 meters away from the station, this undocking/instadocking and/or bumping is stupid. Use a scout or don't undock, undock = fight. ___________________ Sexy Time:
Valan The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:36:00 - [178] Bad point - no one will ever undock with a red in local. Good point - all this docking undocking game breaking play currently exhibited in NPC 0.0 and low sec by carrier pilots is now over. If you don't have the back up in local to get your carrier out then you stay docked. Risk vs reward! /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Gus Preston	Posted - 2008.03.13 21:47:00 - [179] Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 10/03/2008 17:57:41 Originally by: Gus Preston Originally by: Scoundrelus Competent PvPers don't complain, they adapt. I second that motion. Stop whining and deal with it. Since you appear to be a pvp God, what tactic do you propose when you are outnumbered and outgunned, AND you have NO idea what's outside your station? Without an insta - you have no means to access your situation. You undock - align, war... boom you're dead. Sure you could be lucky and have a friendly scout outside the station to give you intel - but now you're permanently stuck till the campers get bored, or you can summon up a horde to fight your way through (this would be ideal but not every player in this game has a means to even out the numbers advantage). Hmmm..... Master of Eve, tell me how do you adapt? Instas gave a chance to an outnumbered/outgunned pilot. If you remove that - then at least give the pilot a means to know what is outside so they can plan and 'adapt' <to use your tired cliche>. I'm going to make this really easy for you as you seem unable to think for yourself. Camped in empire station by a bunch of guys, shuttle...away you go on your merry whining way to collect another ship, or mine or whatever it is you people do. But for heavens sake don't think things out for yourself. Go directly to the forums and moan, it really helps. As for your 'witty' pvp god/master of eve comment. I suggest you don't try being too smart, its become fairly apparent that it does not suit you. I'm not a pvp god, I'm just good at it. So like I said before, grow some stones and deal with it.
Sicariidae	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:30:00 - [180] EULA You pay We do what we want You suffer the consequences good or bad. End of story. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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