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Keva
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Posted - 2008.03.21 20:37:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Celot
you're dumb, a t1 dominix does 1000
Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles.
I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested.
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Roy Batty68
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:29:00 -
[92]
This is a great post. But what makes it great isn't all the info passed on to people, though it is a very good summary.
What makes it great is this attitude:
Originally by: Keva
...
I decided to find out how hard is suicide ganking (from now on called SG because I am a lazy carebear). How much work does it take to SG? How boring is it to SG? Can you defend yourself from a SG? Do people still fly AFK with billions in their cargohold?
...
The attitude of, "I will walk a mile in another man's shoes to see what it's really like". Trying it out for yourself instead of *****ing about something without really knowing the details. My god that's refreshing...
If only more people would think this way. There would be a heck of alot less ranty nerf threads, that's for sure.
So a big salute to the OP for being a great example. o7
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Stefx
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:36:00 -
[93]
Seems like 3 pages of intelligent discussion was the limit ;-)
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
AonChilo
Madison Industrial Co.
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.21 21:52:00 -
[94]
Good post Keva. An excellent & smackfree analysis of the issue. Cheers
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Celot
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Posted - 2008.03.21 23:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Keva
Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles.
I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested.
here let me give you our setups and our fleet doctrine and our consolidated article on suicide ganking oh wait I see what you're doin here
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Stefx
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Posted - 2008.03.22 00:58:00 -
[96]
Good point, Celot, but why the flame post?
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
Kumq uat
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Posted - 2008.03.22 03:05:00 -
[97]
My friend and I saw an Amarr deep sapce transport sitting on a gate for 30 minutes. Apparantly one of those arrived people in a .7. I took a Brutix and he a Scorp. We actually took him out and my Brutix ending up doing about 7000 damage. One fo the tricks of the trade is to have drones out. Sometimes they will attack them first and buy you a second or two.
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www.eve-pirate.com original author and goat molestor.
Herrooooooo Kitty! |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.03.22 04:21:00 -
[98]
Good Post
SKUNK
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Chelone
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Posted - 2008.03.22 04:36:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Chelone on 22/03/2008 04:39:45
Originally by: Matrixcvd
A bitter one, this is...
Not bitter, since I've never had it happen to me, but I know what I hate. Ganking lazy autopiloting haulers is one thing. Making a living out of ruining highsec hauling, even for conscientious pilots is another. _I_ have never gotten ganked. _I_ don't even fly haulers anymore because of this garbage. But with all their victims, I just hope some of them will fork over a little payback. Read this guys. If you got ganked, make the ganker's lives miserable. It takes a little effort, but it's well worth it once you catch them off guard...
Here's another idea for making ganker's lives miserable. Take an alt, especially a trial alt. Look for obvious gatecamps. Then just attack. Attack the gankers, maybe their scanning ships, you could even take those out. But the POINT is getting a giant %$!#@$%@! swarm of CONCORD around all the notorious gank spots. Then let's see them take out a defended hauler once 30 concord are sitting in their face on every gate, LOL!
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Darwin Duck
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Posted - 2008.03.22 05:00:00 -
[100]
Nobody cares for my bear, so I'll spank my monkey instead!
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Nyabinghi
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Posted - 2008.03.22 05:31:00 -
[101]
I never really liked the concept of alts really. It's one of those situations where you give an inch and people take a mile. Reward without risk breaks the fundamentals of what we call a "game." So those who invest in EVE find themselves at the mercy of those who invest little and so it seems the solution is to invest little to succeed. We end up not playing the full game of EVE but rather a smaller, shallower game called "alt wars". You attack me with your disposable alt and I retaliate with my disposable alt.
Honestly I don't know why CCP allowed alts to reside on the same servers as their mains. If alts were only playable on a separate server, a separate EVE universe, then there would be no circumventing the rules of the game. You could be a criminal in one instance of EVE and be a good citizen in another instance but neither would reflect on the other. Seems to me that woudl solve a lot of EVE's problems right there.
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Khanid Kutie
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Posted - 2008.03.22 08:14:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Keva
[*]Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT.
thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true. I have a nighthawk setup on EFT that says "132,000 effective hitpoints"....in reality, when it died....it only took 30,000 dmg. EFT's calculations are done by wannabe programmers who know nothing about how Eve's calcs work.
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Originally by: Thargat
They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
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Zaqar
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Posted - 2008.03.22 09:19:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Khanid Kutie
thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true.
EFT-hate-bandwaggoning is for idiots who just parrot stuff they've heard other people saying 
Tell me, do you know what resistances are? 
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Guillome Renard
Access Services
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:32:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Guillome Renard on 22/03/2008 11:32:57
I'm going to heap on my own praise to Keva here. Even if I knew your main's name I wouldn't -10 you. :P If anything I'd shell out some cash because the information you just provided to us for free is worth BILLIONS to the right people just in the savings it will provide them.
Think whatever you want about having "Gone to the dark side" the truth is, you've probably saved hundreds if not thousands of bears from the gank. You know what that makes you?
A big damn hero.
I had designs on testing this sort of thing, myself. You've saved me the endless hours of ratting to recover my sec rating.
There is still work to be done, however. I too have issues with gankers, but for different reasons than your test subjects. (I refuse to call them victims, for reasons I will get into in a moment.) There are fundamentally two different kinds of gank, and you have explored only the kind that doesn't really bother me at all.
Type I - Piracy Ganking: A pirate, contrary to image, is also a businessman. He is in the takings business, not unlike your local tax bureau. There are subtle differences between being the victim of piracy and paying your taxes but the principle is the same: "I've got what it takes, to take what you've got." It's a pity you can't ransom in high-sec, really, but I suppose your victims are afk anyway so whatever. Does this kind of ganking cost me haulers, fittings, and millions in cargo? Sure it does. I see it in low sec more than high-sec though. I've been instapopped decloaking on the wrong side of a .4/.5 interchange more than once. Usually they get my cargo too. So be it, all the more to them for finding a quick way to make obnoxious amounts of money. I see DOZENS of wrecks around them. You have explores this type of SG. But there is another type, and it's requirements are far lower than a Brutix. It's also what I consider to be a real problem.
Type II - Grief Ganking.
Let us suppose for a moment that you didn't care about losing money. Let us suppose, you didn't care about making money for that matter. Your suicide gank targets are not haulers who are afk and could drop cargo... instead they are new pilots, less than two weeks old, flying Imicus, Catalyst, Osprey, or maybe even a Vexor. These pilots are mining because they don't want to risk hardware that cost them EVERYTHING to buy. They want to save up some money, then they'll do risky stuff...
Enter a Kestrel. I've lost a few barges to kestrels in 1.0 systems, albeit I didn't have the skills to tank or understand alignment times and how agility affected that. Hell, I didn't even know what prealignment was... But that's the problem. You were picking on people who a) probably knew better, b) could afford to replace their hardware, and c) weren't really playing the game as much as letting the game happen.
Type II gankers go after people are intently playing the game, who are TRYING to learn it, and who have zero hope of following your advice. They have nothing of value for the SG to steal or loot. The SG isn't risking a Brutix, he's losing a Kestrel or something equally cheap.
Type II are the only kind of ganker I see. I see them every day, in every system where newbs gather to mine veld and scord. I'm trying to bring people into EVE, but I've had difficulty because they invariably find themselves on the receiving end of a crippling financial loss and they just don't have the skills or savoir faire for me to justify making them whole again and again.
I need to develop ways to protect my newbs. I never really cared for the term 'carebear' but I suppose shepherding new pilots earns the title more than any other activity in the game. What insights can you lend to this, genuine dark side of SG? How do you beat someone who doesn't operate on the profit motive?
EDIT: P.S. Sun Tzu did, in fact, say something like that. The actual quote is, "Know the enemy, and know thyself; In a thousand battles you will never know peril."
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Elis Verone
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:41:00 -
[105]
the only real solution to all this is stop insurance if you SG... the fact that insurance companies pay out is lame.
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Myth Al'kar
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:01:00 -
[106]
The whole suicide ganking of miners in high secs thing gets me happy in the pants. Seriously.
Thing is, those are a lot of players who pay...so CCP will nerf it :(
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Jesona Rove
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.22 17:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
I think this in one of the few instances where a shield tanker is better in PvP.
The transport ships set up for shield tanking have a better chance to survive than those thought for armor tanking. They can set up for faster getaway while an armor tanker is slower accelerating and warping.
Youre not getting it. No one can warp away from suicide ganks.
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Neal Cassady
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Posted - 2008.03.22 18:51:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Thats one of the reasons I'd like to see zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord.
you want to kill low sec pvp?
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Ksidyn
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:25:00 -
[109]
Well what if you just reduced (or removed, though I'd probably prefer reduced) payouts for the people who were actually Concorded? Then it wouldn't affect lowsec at all only the high sec SG's.
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Nyabinghi
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:37:00 -
[110]
A criminal is a criminal is a criminal. Why should any lawful organization want to insure your ship? Risk vs reward, if you do the crime then be willing to pay the price.
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Eevul Rabbite
Blue.
Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:55:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Khanid Kutie
Originally by: Keva
[*]Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT.
thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true. I have a nighthawk setup on EFT that says "132,000 effective hitpoints"....in reality, when it died....it only took 30,000 dmg. EFT's calculations are done by wannabe programmers who know nothing about how Eve's calcs work.
You just proved the person who knows nothing about how Eve's calcs work is yourself. EFT is correct. Hint: "effective hitpoints" in EFT is your actual hitpoints with resists factored in, assuming damage types are even. It's a virtual number but gives an estimate of raw damage your ship can take. EFT shows your actual hitpoints below, the exact same amounts as EVE 
No wonder suiciding is still profitable!
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Billy Sastard
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 20:48:00 -
[112]
Keva, you are too good @ EVE to be a carebear 
Good OP and good thread (for the most part).
-=^=-
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.22 21:40:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Nyabinghi
Honestly I don't know why CCP allowed alts to reside on the same servers as their mains.
...money ? There is a reason only alts from extra accounts can train separately. Alts give lots of advantages , and require GTCs to be used to their full potential. Extra income for CCP.
Some dev admitted it was a pretty terrible mistake (game balance wise) to allow alts and multiple accounts , but it's not going to be changed now , that's for sure.
I have no problem surviving in Eve with no alts. It's not that hard to adapt , even as an outlaw.
Sure , game balance would be better without disposable suicide gank alts. But highsec activities shouldn't be so ridiculously profitable compared to lowsec in the first place. Pirates follow the fattest victims.
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
edit: Wow, that was unpleasant, I felt pity for someone. Won't happen again.
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EvilweaselFinance
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.22 22:56:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Keva
Originally by: Celot
you're dumb, a t1 dominix does 1000
Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles.
I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested.
I'm not going to post our setups either but your estimates of the max DPS you can get out of a ship aren't very good.
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Kano Sekor
Raging Phoenix
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Posted - 2008.03.23 01:44:00 -
[115]
Regarding the scan counter there is actually a skill that was intended to go ingame that was called "Black market trading" that was basically a skill that couldve been called "smuggling". But basically it was about customs scanning you had a higher chance of missing youre malicous cargo. This skill can be augmentet do show nothing for a cargo scan (and of course be put in game so i get some use of my SPs invested in that) (hey atleast smuggling sounded cool when i was a nub)
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Terazuk
Rogen's Heroes
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Posted - 2008.03.23 03:10:00 -
[116]
A most excellent post.. bookmarking this one for future whine spamming.
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