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Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:05:00 - [1] The economics of suicide ganking (a carebear's descent into chaos). Sun Tzu said "To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy". Well actually sun Tzu never said that it just is horribly misquoted because the real saying is not as catchy. However regardless of who said it, the saying is good advice. Over last couple weeks the rhetoric on both sides about suicide ganking has reached fevered pitch. The gankees complain it is way too easy, has no risk, should be an exploit, and likely will cause the EVE cluster to begin learning at a geometric rate and become self-aware. In a panic CCP will try to pull the plug and .... well the rest is history (or is it future). Anways I decided to find out how hard is suicide ganking (from now on called SG because I am a lazy carebear). How much work does it take to SG? How boring is it to SG? Can you defend yourself from a SG? Do people still fly AFK with billions in their cargohold? Note to my fellow bears: The is my "forum warrior" alt. It will never be used in-game. Don't ask me to "post with my main", don't both setting standing to -10 because this isn't the toon that did the ganking. Note to the pew-pew types: I am sure I screwed a lot of stuff up. I likely forgot stuff, didn't do it optimally, or was in general just a dumb carebear. I welcome any advice but the point was expirement without outside help. Game Theory: So I decided I needed some intel. How quick does Concord respond? What is the sec hit? How much dmg do I need to do? I fitted a noob ship and shot a miner in a belt and waiter for concord. Found out I have about 20 seconds in 0.5-0.6 space and about 8 seconds in 1.0 space. 0.5 FTW. Sec hit for starting combat not too bad (-0.5%). I used EFT and found a BC was best mix of enough HP to survive the sentry guns, mid slots to passive target, scan, web, scramble, and enough raw damage to destroy untanked ships in <20 seconds. I used Brutix w/ Heavy Blasters, required mid slot gear (eventually traded a ship scanner for warp scrambler), damage mods, and 1 damage control (boosts HP enough to survive sentry guns for 30 seconds). Total cost plus insurance premium minus payout is about 5 million. This is a balancing problem IMHO. Stalking the bear: I looked at the map for some 0.5 & 0.6 systems a few jumps from "home". I found a couple that lead towards the highway system to Jita (the carebear mecca). After a couple false starts I found a couple gates that meets the criteria: 0.5 - 0.6 sec rating High Traffic (Jumps per hour) High Traffic in the ajoining system (jumps per hour). Station for docking with da lootz. High % of industrial traffic. Types of traffic: 1) Outbound (AFK or manual) - I noticed solo it is very hard to lock, scan, close distance, and decided to engage before they warp out. This is the domain of gangs not solo gankers. 2) End System - This is the final jump for player. Likely they have been AFK so the ship waits 30 seconds then decloaks and sits there. I didn't go after these because one they are rare two it is a pain to close on them only to have the warp out just before I scramble them. 3) Inbound WTZ (Warp to Zero) - "forget about it". Can't be attacked or at least not anyway I could figure out. 4) Inbound AFK - the meat. If you are running AFK you are the problem. All 5 of the kills I made were AFK. Compared to all other targets AFK bears are easier and more numerous. After 2nd kills I started looking at AFK bears exclusively.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:06:00 - [2] The Results: First ganking is 99.9% of the time boring. More boring that ratting, more boring than running missions, more boring than mining, more boring than even salvaging. I am talking putting a hybrid pistol to your head and pulling the trigger boring. However the brief 8 seconds of combat was a rush. I knew I was dead but I wasn't sure I would get the target, or would it drop the good lootz, or would someone else scoop the gear, or did he have a buddy who was going to pod me. I am ashamed to say it but it is kinda addicting. Out of 5 attacks 4 were successful and 1 I mistook a Mastadon (T2 transport) for a Mammoth (Industrial). I didn't even break the armor before Concord popped me. Net gain was about 100 million. Analysis for carebears: Gain per hour for solo ganking is less than lvl4 mission running. AFK carebears in untanked cargo expanded to the max (drops structure HP) ships are a huge part of the problem. They simply make it way too easy. Transports are tough. After the whole Mastadon-Of-Doom incident I rechecked EFT. A well tanked T2 transport has about 25,000 effective HP (HP * average resist of damage being dealt) against blasters. I good BC can do about 400 DPS so in 20 seconds can do 8000 damage. A T2 transport can survive 3 BC. Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT. Even if you don't care about "pew pew" you should care when the "pew pew" is aimed at you. 8,000 effective HP (EHP) can survive a solo ganker. 16,000 can survive a pair. 24,000 can survive 3. 50,000 can survive 8. Damage Control II is your friend. It gives an all around boost to armor, shield and 60% resist to structure. This one module can boost your effective HP by 40%. Booster are generally useless in high sec. Forget about "active tanks" think "static tank" Increase HP so you can survive 30 seconds. All battles are over within 30 seconds. If you fit a repair module and it has a cycle time of 30 sec and repairs 400HP then you gained 1 cycle or 400HP. If you fit a 800mm plate and gain 2000 raw HP then you gain 2000 raw HP (likely 3000-5000 effective HP). You aren't trying to survive a 4 hour PVE quest. You just need to survive 30 sec with 1+ HP remaining. Unless you already know what you are doing forget warp stabalizers in high sec. While you align to warp in your untanked indy they will pop you. Concentrate on surviving until Concord arrives. Don't run BPO in shuttles. It doesn't fool anyone. Use transports. Use transports. Use transports. Oh yeah Use transports. If you can't use transports use a static tanked battleship (1600mm plate + hardeners) if you are moving a small amount of expensive cargo (BPO, BPC, implants, T2 modules, rigs, etc). If you run an AFK indy with no tank, max expanders and I kill you don't ask for your stuff back. That's just sad. Analysis for pew-pew guys: I don't know how you survive the boredom. Litterally I need an insurance policy on my implants in case I am negatively affected by a self inflicted gunshot to the head. Be honest. The 100% insurance (which generally is 110%-120% of purchase price for BC) takes all risk away. I think no insurance may be too much but maybe 50% insurance penalty would make target selection more important. Don't tell the bears but I started this as an experiment but now I am kinda addicted. It is a rush and the loot looks so nice when you go over it in the hanger. The anguish when a pirate implant is the item destroyed and a shuttle BPC survives. Wow. It is like a whole new game.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Keva on 18/03/2008 23:07:48 Some ideas off the top of my head: * trial account should not be able to do anything "illegal". It is an exploit but very hard to prove. Solve the problem CCP. Right now a window pops up to tell you that you are doing something "risky". For trial accounts don't give them an OK/Cancel. Just give them a "Cancel" with paragraph explaining this is only for paid accounts. The sec loss is the only real risk to and trials make it too easy to get rid of. * Make cargo blockers that work like ECM with a % chance that cargo scan will fail. Now if the scan is blocked likely the indy has some good stuff. What if they dropped the good stuff and it is empty. Do I attack it or do I let it go? * Make a cargo demolition charges item. Make them carried in cargo hold and large like 500m to reduce effective cargo capacity. Each one increases the % of each item being destroyed. Say if normally each item has a 50% chance of being destroyed maybe it is 60% with if a cargo demolition charge is being carried. Obviously they should stack with penalties (like armor resist). It should never be possible for 100% of cargo to be destroyed. * Some game mechanic where gankers can be "hassled" by anti-pirate players needs to be added. I mean I am sitting at a gate scanning all the ships that pass. Obviously I am up to no good but no player can attack me or Concord will respond. Concord does nothing, the empire does nothing. Now I don't think scanning should be a concord flag but it should warrant some response. Maybe a % chance based on sec rating. Each scan has a chance that I am flagged as outlaw for 15 minutes. So an anti-pirate guy can hang around the gate cloaked. If I get flagged he can jump me. Basically there should be some risk. Summary: * My drill Seagent liked to say "if you tired then your wrong" in eve if you are AFK then you are wrong. If all players stopped flying AFK honestly suicide ganking would drop by 90%. * Suicide attacks should continue to be allowed. They serve an important role. They regulate supply and demand. They punish foolish players. They reward (the player who used Mastadon that I thought was a Mammouth) players who take precautions. * Suicide attacks need to be adjusted for risk. I think no insurance payout is too harsh because it gives a free pass to anyone carrying less than 30 million in equipment. Maybe a 50% insurance penalty would make sense? * Alt accounts should not be able to engage in PVP in high-sec (no suicide attacks, no podding, no can flipping). If you are new and want to do that then subsribe. It would overnight end the suicide-alt issue. * Carebears need to learn how to "static tank" = increase raw HP and resists as high as possible to survive a 30 sec attack. * There should be some counters either scan blockers (% based), temporary outlaw flag % based on scanning, cargo charges, etc? I don't know what but there should be something to make it more than scan all incomming ships. Open fire on first ship worth 20mill+.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:12:00 - [4] good post:) Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:20:00 - [5] I think this in one of the few instances where a shield tanker is better in PvP. The transport ships set up for shield tanking have a better chance to survive than those thought for armor tanking. They can set up for faster getaway while an armor tanker is slower accelerating and warping.
Poppy Star Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:24:00 - [6] Great post. Im a carebear myself, so I will immediately hate you for ganking other bears, but I love you for telling me how I can increase my chances of survival if im unlucky enough to be the victim of a gank. I take my hat off to you for not just whining about gankers and having the dogs danglies to try it for yourself. I would wish you luck in your endeavor but im not a masochist, so I will just say "have fun" being a Will swap T2 cookies for shiny moderator sigs
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Soporo on 18/03/2008 23:42:40 Excellent post. I learned some of this the hard way a while back, but you ahve certainly added to my store of Emp traveling tactics. I agree that Insurance payouts are the big issue here; current situation = CCP approves of suicide alt Empire gank. ________________________________________________ "We can't reimburse ships due to server meltdowns because our service is so frickin unstable we get thousands of reimburse petitions daily".
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:09:00 - [8] This is the best OP I have seen in weeks, if not months. Sir, you win EvE today. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:10:00 - [9] awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it. \0/ happy ending! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Einar Lightfingers Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it. This being said by a Goon honestly doesn't surprise me. To the OP, props to you sir for actually doing the research yourself instead of whining/crying etc. Now, to convince all the whiners to read your post and actually take your advice..... _______________________ Retired CEO of DOMNI
banannagirl The U-B-H-C	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:59:00 - [14] In my earlier post it was suggested that suicide ganking would only be a result of making new clones revert back to 0 sec. so whats this post about ... people ... SUICIDE GANKING ...! regards BG Link removed, advertising services for real world money is not allowed on the forums - Wrangler
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:12:00 - [15] Wow, I never knew only carebears flew haulers, or owned expensive things. Thanks for opening my eyes to the reality of Eve, and the plight of poor non-carebears who own nothing and never fly haulers. [/sarcasm]
Sumerio Rayej Dark Shadow Runners	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Keva [list] Trial account should not be able to do anything "illegal". It is an exploit but very hard to prove. Solve the problem CCP. Right now a window pops up to tell you that you are doing something "risky". For trial accounts don't give them an OK/Cancel. Just give them a "Cancel" with paragraph explaining this is only for paid accounts. The sec loss is the only real risk to and trials make it too easy to get rid of. All in all, this thread was an awesome read. I think all your suggestions are worth careful consideration, but this is an amazing idea. Not only does it eliminate part of the suicide-alt problem, it protects noobs from making stupid mistakes that might turn them off to the game. The only potential problem is that it doesn't let people jump right into a try at piracy during their trial period. I imagine that wouldn't be a very big deal, though.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:48:00 - [17] In response to the OP OUTSTANDING post. One of the most well written posts I've read in the last 3 years. I don't agree with you on everything. I still think the best and simplest thing would be to have zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord (regardless of who gets final shot), but I dont mind if someone with less than 30mil cargo gets free ride. But the insurance issue is minor point, and one I'm not really much worried about, even if I do have an opinion on it. MUCH more important on this issue is a point you made that I 100% agree on: There should be some PRACTICAL (Stress the word "practical") way for bears to harrass suicide gankers and make life miserable for suicide gankers. (however, I can't think of anything to do this for your average bear, so I'd settle for no insurance....) Play nice while you butcher each other.
Agathe Hira Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:09:00 - [18] Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. The problem is not afk t1 haulers. It's heavily tanked mission runner battleships getting blown up. Frieghters with over a hundred thousand hp being blown up. Any mining ship above a cruiser getting blown up. If someone uses a transport that only adds up to their loss, because gankers don't work solo. Transports are junk. 3 Brutixes ? that's less then the cost of the empty transport if the cargo wasn't worth anything . Any t2 ship above frigates is basicly open to griefing in highsec because it's cost empty and unfitted is higher then the cost in ships it takes to suicide it. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win.
J Valkor Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:13:00 - [19] Kill em all and let the buzzards pick apart the remains.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Agathe Hira Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. The problem is not afk t1 haulers. It's heavily tanked mission runner battleships getting blown up. Frieghters with over a hundred thousand hp being blown up. Any mining ship above a cruiser getting blown up. If someone uses a transport that only adds up to their loss, because gankers don't work solo. Transports are junk. 3 Brutixes ? that's less then the cost of the empty transport if the cargo wasn't worth anything . Any t2 ship above frigates is basicly open to griefing in highsec because it's cost empty and unfitted is higher then the cost in ships it takes to suicide it. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win. Thats one of the reasons I'd like to see zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord. Although I'd like to see a practical method of harrassing suicide gankers in 0.5+ even more. Make the issue into an actual two way hunting affair. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:53:00 - [21] Though your experiment was obviously more costly to other players than yourself you have provided some valuable insight here as to the dynamics of suicide ganking. A few points I will concur with and will add to: Trial accounts shouldn't be a tool for people to even further circumvent penalties for criminal behavior in EVE. Bad enough players use alts to avoid the penalties their mains incur but using trial accounts for mischief is just getting ridiculous. For that matter I don't think people should be using any throw away alt, paid for or not, to go around suicide ganking in high sec. Some form of ECM to block cargo scans should be available. However... Sitting on a gate or just off a station scanning ship's cargoholds it's blatantly obvious the hostile intent. One scan should get a warning from CONCORD including a small sec hit or fine, continued scanning cargoholds and CONCORD should consider it the same as if the player fired upon another. I do disagree with some points you made, I'll elaborate: OK let's make this clear AUTOPILOT CARGO HAULING IN HIGH SEC IS NOT A CRIME. By nature hauling goods often means traveling long distances. Even warp to zero gate to gate travel across EVE can be time consuming. Some haulers go AFK, some are busy checking markets, conducting business, etc. Just because a hauler has his or her ship on autopilot doesn't mean it deserves to be blown up. So let's get off blaming the victim. Having said that, yes it's obviously safer to not be AFK or otherwise to not autopilot all the time through EVE. If your cargo is quite valuable then it's better to be safe than sorry. Suicide ganking is not a necessary part of the EVE economy. That's just ridiculous. The economy was flowing long before suicide ganking got popular. It takes a considerable amount of training time (longer than it takes to get into a gankfit BS) and isk to get into a Transport Ship and fit it decently. A lot of players would like to get around EVE with cargo without having to sit and wait and train for over a month before they start their chosen profession. Yes it's a good idea for haulers to train up for Transports but just because a player hasn't the skills yet doesn't mean they should be royally screwed. My 2cents. ***
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Agathe Hira Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win. Well let's do some math. Here are some shipfits per EFT Iteron MK V fitted for hauling: Expanded Cargohold II x3 Nanofiber Internal Structure II x1 Overdrive Injector II x1 10MN Afterburner x1 Cargo: 12436 m3 (25,270 m3 w/ just 5x EC) EHP: 4140 EHP vs blaster (4560 EHP vs Energy) Iteron MK V fitted for static shield tank: Expanded Cargohold II x4 Damage Control II x1 Medium Shield Extender x4 Cargo: 19800 m3 last medium slot: Heat Disipation Amp II - 13K EHP vs Energy 16K EHP vs Blaster Heat Disipation Field II - 14K EHP vs Energy 18K EHP vs Blaster Invulnerability Field II - 15K EHP vs Energy 17K EHP vs Blaster Occator fitted for static shield tank Damage Control II x1 Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II x1 Expanded Cargohold II x4 Large Shield Extender II x2 optional: Rig-Cargohold Optimization I x2 Cargo: 16K, (21.8K w/ rigs) EHP: 40K vs Energy, 68K vs Blaster Freighter EHP: 140K - 160K (depending on model) So how long against how many ships can these setups survive? A cruiser can do about 350dps but can't survive sentry gun for more than 10sec. A battle cruiser can do about 400dps-450dps. A battleship can do about 600dps but BS guns are expensive. Fit medium guns and they do no more dmg than a BC at higher cost. So you can see why the BC is the premier gankship against anything smaller than a BS as target. Response time varies but is around: 0.5-0.6 - about 20 sec 0.7-0.8 - about 15 sec 0.9-1.0 - <10 sec (sometimes more but very risky to plan on longer response and it ends up being short). The purpose of the post wasn't to say you can be 100% invulnerable against all threats all the time anywhere. You can't. However sit at a gate and scan the ships. Record how many are AFK. Two patterns emerge. One is a LOT of ships are AFK. The other is a LOT of those ships don't even have the most basic tank. A ship w/ 4K EHP can't survive a single attacker. A ship w/ 40K EHP requires 5+ BC. Your comment about Brutix. Well it is a blaster boat so a T2 transport as shown above has 68K EHP. That requires 8 Brutix in 0.5 space to finish job before Concord arrives. In 0.7 that jumps to 10 and in 1.0 it is more like 15. So sure you can be destroyed however there is also opportunity cost. If it takes me and 14 of my buddies sit there and wait for that one T2 transport tanked to come by with 500mil in loot we could have made more isk destroying the 2 dozen or so haulers carrying 50-200 mil ea with no precautions that can be killed solo or in pairs. 500 mil split 14 ways or 50-200 mil split one (or maybe 2 ways)? One thing I learned in Iraq is you can't be 100% invincible. You can however make yourself a hard target. Most of the time people will hit the easy target. Today someone was transporting 100mil+ in salvage in a Bestower AFK (no tank, max cargo expanders even though his cargo was only about 3000m3). I targeted and destroyed him about 18 minutes after arriving at the gate. You think I am going to wait for that perfect battle against a T2 transport when there is easy targets like that going by every 15-30 minutes? All that being said that is why I am in favor of counter measures (scan blockers, cargo demolition charges, something), some tweaking of insurance (maybe half payouts is good place to start), also some game mechanics that allow people who scan 30+ ships in a row to be targeted as outlaw temporarily.
Marcus Quo Axe Gang	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:24:00 - [23] I'm amazed, this is actually a good post. And, as a pirate, I agree with most of the fixes that the OP proposes. Not sure about the scan blocking modules, but the rest sounds pretty reasonable.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:27:00 - [24] So should I fit a Iteron or transport stuff with my BS? I don't really deal with much stuff that is expensive and I warp to 0km when I do. Am I relatively safe? I don't afk autopilot with expensive crap.
Shadow Joy Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:44:00 - [25] Excellent post - one of the best I have seen on this forum. Your idea about not allowing trial accounts to commit illegal actions is quite intriguing, and well worth discussing. I think, on balance, it would be a boost to suicide ganking as it would prevent people from using disposable alts to summon CONCORD before their expensive ships warp in. Given that the battlecruiser skill can not be trained on trial accounts, your suggestion would not really affect the people who follow in your footsteps. Still, for the other reasons you mentioned, I think the idea has merit.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Zifrian So should I fit a Iteron or transport stuff with my BS? I don't really deal with much stuff that is expensive and I warp to 0km when I do. Am I relatively safe? I don't afk autopilot with expensive crap. If you don't need a lot of cargo space a BS is better hands down. The main limit is most BS even fitted with max Expanded Cargohold II can only hold <3000m. However if you don't have a transport and/or you are moving small vol high value cargo (implants, BPO, salvage, rigs, some T2 modules) it can be worth it. Take a Megathron. Now most people would armor tank it but lets say you need 3000m of cargo space. That means using low slots for cargo. So we are going to static shield tank it. Most important thing to remember in high sec the battle will be over in 20sec or less. Even Shield Boosters are not worth it. Let's compare shield booster to Shield Extender: X-Large Shield Booster II +600 HP ever 5 seconds = 120HP/s * 20 sec (max may be shorter) = 2400HP gained Large Shield Extender II +2625 HP (+225 more HP under longest engagement shorter attacks favor it more + you don't need to activate it). The goal is massive STATIC HP. Static Shield Tank Dominix Damage Control II x1 Expanded Cargohold II x6 Large Shield Extender II x2 Invulnerability Field II x2 Cargo: 2900m3 (just short of a giant can) EHP: 61K vs Blasters 57K vs Energy Of course you can tweak this some. If you really need more cargo space you could drop the DC and add one more expander. You lose about 10K effective HP (Damage Control is best single mod for static defense). You bump cargo to 3697 m3 so you can fit a giant cargo container for a bonus 900m or an effective cargo of 4297. If you make enough high value low vol cargo runs maybe fit 1 or 2 cargo rigs then you can gain armor plate for more HP and more cargo. If you needed less cargo (1784m3) you could keep shield tank and add a pair of 1600mm armor plate bringing your EHP to 85K. If you needed less cargo (657 m3) but max security drop all EC and add to the 85K setup 4 hardeners which brings your EHP to 130K - 160K depending on the type of attack. 160K HP would take 20+ BC to take you down it <20 sec. If really depends on how much cargo and how crazy hardened you want to make yourself. Some things Not to do (in high-sec): Fit warp core stab. It doesn't matter if you can run if they pop you before you aligned to warp. Fit AB or MWD thinking you can "run the gate" when semi-AFK. When scrambled you will be moving <150m/s or so. I start my attack run at around 7K so you will be dead long before Concord arrive or you reach the gate Use repairers or boosters. The battle is too short. If gankings lasted 60sec sure they would make sense. In 20sec neither module type can deliver enough raw HP. Neither can shield recharges, shield flux, shield relays. If you will be AFK don't use modules like Damage Control which need to be activated. At least use passive modules (extenders, armor plates, energized plating, shield amps etc
Jesnen D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Jesnen on 19/03/2008 04:31:15 Good post. I think the greatest thing about suicide ganking is that it places that bit of paranoia in everybody's mind. Cmon people, that's instant immersion right there, remember why you started playing eve? To be immersed in an environment where you could be whatever you were smart enough, determined enough, and lucky enough to be. Why homogenize eve by taking away creative careers such as this? It's like guns in America, there's way too many, we do stupid things with them, and they get us in trouble with the police, but to take them away is un-American. To take away suicide ganking is un-Eve. edit: Also if a game makes you scared, paranoid, angry, or happy then you probably got your money's worth so stop complaining everybody.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:21:00 - [28] Actually there is no such thing as a "suicide" ganker in EVE per se as the only way a player can truly commit suicide is to delete their accounts. Be sure if a player's alts had no cloning ability you wouldn't see people throwing them away so eagerly suicide ganking other players. That idea I know would be considered too radical by many so I think, at the very least, if you commit a suicide gank you should get a sec hit significant enough to send you down to .4 or lower. There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. ***
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Nyabinghi There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. Just for the record. I never murdered anyone. No capsuleers were harmed. Believe me based on the amount of shouting in local and convo requests I am sure they survived with no injury to their vocal cords.
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Keva Originally by: Nyabinghi There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. Just for the record. I never murdered anyone. No capsuleers were harmed. Believe me based on the amount of shouting in local and convo requests I am sure they survived with no injury to their vocal cords. Some people think the screaming is the best part.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:22:00 - [31] Thanks for the suggestions Keva.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:09:00 - [32] Just some question: In your DPS calculations you have counted drones? Faction ammunition (it is worth using it, you don't need a full load)?
Jones Maloy Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:33:00 - [33] for faction ammo you won't even get through half a clip. sometimes a simple "****er" goes a long way. cemetary vote Unofficial Official Jita Fubar Thread
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:56:00 - [34] Very clear concise report. I won't list my setup, but a properly fitted t1 indy manually flown is very very hard to gank even with wardec from multiple attackers. The biggest thing you can do is DONT FLY HAULERS AFK.
Chavu Ganja Labs	Posted - 2008.03.19 08:39:00 - [35] Excellent post. He really summed it up quite nicely, I've done the suicide hi-sec thing a long time ago and yes it is quite boring and not always very profitable. And because of the sec hit, you can't just kill everything- you need to wait for the proverbial 'big score'. If there was tons of people suiciding all the time, then it would be a problem and CCP would change some of the mechanics. But the fact is that suicide ganks rarely happen and usually only happen on unusually lightly defended targets with unusually expensive cargo. Working as intended I would say.
Dictum Factum Gemini Sun Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.19 08:39:00 - [36] Very nice post, Keva. I know less than you think I do.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Chavu the fact is that suicide ganks rarely happen They happen every night, every few minutes in some systems.
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:13:00 - [38] What's this? A discussion on suicide ganking that doesn't devolve into emotional grandstanding but puts out some cold hard facts and some very reasonable suggestions? Am i in the correct forum? Well written and well done. I'd like to make some comments, but all in all i applaud the approach you took in addressing this controversial issue. Outbound traffic: Actually, this is even with gang based gank operations a serious consideration, and the reason many people fly BPO's in a shuttle (which is quite ok as long as you don't toss your advantage away with flying AFK). If you align almost instantly, you'll never get a lock against you and will suffer no attack. This works in most cases in low sec, and in high sec it works even beter because the one counter in unbubbled space against instaaligning (smartbombs) is not feasible in high sec. Tanking: As a matter of fact, most haulers will have far more structure than shields or armor, making a combination of shield and structure buffer tanking quite viable. DC works quite well (if you don't haul AFK) on structure tanks and with lots of bulkheads an industrial can pad its HP quite well this way. Top it off with shield extenders in the mids(maybe 1 or 2 invuls) and the cost to gank went up an awful lot. DC is very nice this way because it benefits resists on ALL tank types. Repairs: While i agree that buffer tanking is the way to go, carrying an armor and hull repair in your hold so you can dock, unload, repair, reload and resume your journey in pristine condition is not a bad idea. The rush: Yeah. That's for many the sole reason to pirate. It's hard to make it more profitable than carebearing but you found out the rewards aren't just in the ISKies. Trial accounts: I mentioned that before, and i wholeheartedly throw in my support for this again. Trials are disposable. They are already abused by ISK farmers and sellers, and the mechanics used to detect alt abuse on the same account(already deemed an exploit) don't work when the whole account is tossed away. I fully agree that free trialers should not be able to do anything that gives them a global agression timer. No hitting CONCORD, no attacking players who aren't already flashy red, neither in high sec nor low sec. If they want to pew pew so badly, they should be willing to pay the subscription. Prevents abuse and even improves the new player experience somewhat as it also acts as a form of foolproofing against stuff that would make an unexpecting player lose sec rating and their ship. Countermeasures: VERY nice idea. The anti scanning item is great as is, but to spice it up make it a low slot item so it has to be balanced out against other indy fittings(blate, WCS, cargo expanders, nano), and it should benefit the pirate if he uses a passive targeter in some way to add use to that module. The demolition charges however will be quite hard to balance out i think as even a 60% chance of destructon would quickly make suiciding completely unviable. Anti piracy: My stance on this remains the same. At present pirates pretty much always have the first strike advantage and anti piracy is seriously hampered by this. Pirates don't care about their sec rating while anti pirates do, and this protects pirates until they make their run. It should be made much easier to proactively seek out and eliminate pirate gatecamps and wolfpacks with a dedicated patrol, and this should be done both in high and low sec. Doing it that way will also address the overabundance of target starved pirates in low sec, which is the chief reason the risk/reward ratio in low sec is so out of whack few bother exploiting it.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:08:00 - [39] Originally by: Chavu Excellent post. ................ If there was tons of people suiciding all the time, then it would be a problem and CCP would change some of the mechanics. ................. What server do you play on? It sure aint Tranquility. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Hyperforce99 MetaFlux Industries	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:12:00 - [40] Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 19/03/2008 11:16:02 If I may and my solution to this and the recent goonswarm griefing thats going on with them hunting exhumers and barges while not at war with they're targets. If your in High-Sec and you attack a ship like a hauler, mining barge, exhumer or freighter (basicly every ship that can't defend itsself). NOT including shuttles. 1. disallow the offender to get his insurance back 2. give a hightened sec stat. hit to the offenders Also your other idea's are great. Like the disallowing trail accounts to attack other people, at least in High-Sec or empire space in general. See I don't mind a suicide gank to happen once, I don't mind it to happen twice. I don't even mind if it happens to me, i'll get anoyed, i'll feel bad but I'll get over it. What I DO MIND is that goonswarm, for no real reason except for maybe boredom is killing random and EVERY exhumer and even some barges that they find in empire. Ok granted they are often macrominers, but if they arn't and I suspect that at least 50% is not, its griefing. --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
Zarin University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Keva Transports are tough. After the whole Mastadon-Of-Doom incident I rechecked EFT. A well tanked T2 transport has about 25,000 effective HP (HP * average resist of damage being dealt) against blasters. I good BC can do about 400 DPS so in 20 seconds can do 8000 damage. A T2 transport can survive 3 BC. A 22 day old char in an armageddon with smartbombs can pop a blockade runner transport in 7 seconds. I assume they had trained exclusively for the task, they can then be recycled with no need to worry about the sec status loss.
abbagabba	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:59:00 - [42] Edited by: abbagabba on 19/03/2008 12:04:57 [Iteron Mark V, ITTYV] Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Damage Control II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] Cargohold Optimization I Cargohold Optimization I Cargohold Optimization I 25k effective hitpoints, fairly even resists and 11000 cargo hold. Or: [Sigil, Sigil] Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN Afterburner II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Improved Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I Low Friction Nozzle Joints I Align time 3.9s
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Zarin A 22 day old char in an armageddon with smartbombs can pop a blockade runner transport in 7 seconds. I assume they had trained exclusively for the task, they can then be recycled with no need to worry about the sec status loss. Smartbombs aren't really an option for high sec. The added crowds make the risk of hitting something else before your target if you just leave them on too great, and if you only turn them on when you see the blockade runner he'll be gone in less than those 7 seconds. SB's are really a lowsec tactic, and lowsec works markedly different from suicide ganking. A deep space transport should be able to tank out those SB's with ease.
Illegal KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:32:00 - [44] Nice thread indeed. A long time ago i was once victim to TankCEO in my alt's ITY5, that cost me 5 local hull expanders when they werent cheap, i learned my lesson then, it only took the once. I now tank up my ITY 5 with: Improved Cloak (Effectively useless since it goes unused but you never know) 4x Med Shield Ext II 1x Invuln Field II 4x Shield Power Relay II 1x Cargo Expander II 1x Core Defence Purger 1x Shield EM Hardener Rig 1x Shield TH Hardener Rig While i agree that booster's are useless, given the HP gain throughout the attack, but i do believe in passive shield tanks, such as on the typical Drake. This tank gives me 6,011 HP shields and a recharge time of 146 seconds. This gives me an effective shield recharge of 100 HP/sec in addition to my raw shield HP of 6,011. I have no idea what the EHP or my average resists are, but i do know what i have survived. There have been 4 attempts to date on my various hauler kits, once was against a fully expanded kit, another time against my pure tank: 1. 2x Thorax's w/ Drones - Failed (Got me down to 60% shields) 2. 1x Dominix w/ Drones - Failed (Got me down to 25% shields) 3. 2x Thorax's w/ Drones - Failed (Shields dropped to 80% then started to rise again) 4. 1x Drake - Failed (Shield dropped to 80% again) In each of the above attempts, by the time they lock me with their hauler to see how much shields i have left, i've nigh on fully recharged again to 100%. I dont let my hauler run AFK unless its empty, but i do use AP on the way back occasionally when im busy with other stuff, but as soon as i am locked the invuln goes on. However, no tank should replace common sense. Dont fly AP when your hold is worth billions, for valuable small items use an Interceptor, for valuable large loads make multiple trips. And if you must must go AFK then use your AP settings to avoid 0.6 and down to reduce the chance of a gank. I dont believe that the insurance pay outs should necessarily be removed, though reduced under certain circumstances would be fair and reasonable, i dont believe that cargo scanning should be punishable, but i do like the idea of cargohold bombs. If you're going to carry billions of isk of cargo in a freighter then bring a gang of Logistics to rep you if you get attacked, thats surely less hassle than losing said cargo. And lastly, i feel that things such as recycling alts to SG is wrong, its against game mechanics. _______________________________________________________
Maik002 SPANI The Fifth Race	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:37:00 - [45] CCP. please add some hardpoints to freighters...
Jolliejoe Quad Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:54:00 - [46] good write up, thanks for posting.
MACCHES Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:57:00 - [47] Well written, interesting discussion of one of Eve's spikier topics. I had no idea that there was anyone left playing Eve that still uses the autopilot button! Now that you bring it to my attention, I'm feeling alot less sympathetic towards the hordes of carebear flame-warriors crying for mercy. I don't like being popped from 100km by a Megathron I barely noticed, but then I don't pack a tritanium-balloon full of equipment, press A, and go and make some toast. Thankyou for informing me that it doesn't necessarily make more money than mission farming, as was my first thought as to why suicide ganking had become popular. It's for the Buzzzz! And armed with this knowledge, a new Harbi, and a scanner, I'm off to test this theory of addictive gameplay. --------------------------- Insert Pirate-themed remark
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:05:00 - [48] I have put some of the suggestions in this thread up into the features and ideas forum to improve the chances of a dev noticing them. I do like the idea of customizing your ship to become a less attractive target.
Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:15:00 - [49] An inspired and unique post in every way - thanks Keva!
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:22:00 - [50] This entire thread wins - the OP espectially, but also the commentors - it's very rare to find such a well thought out and reasoned discussion outside of Features. It's especially good because it finally shows that there are reasonable measures that can be made to protect yourself, and despite that there are still a few holes that could do with plugging, in non-gamebreaking ways. I've never suicide ganked, nor do I ever intend to, but I'm all for everyone having their fun. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Ieu Duin Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:27:00 - [51] Edited by: Ieu Duin on 19/03/2008 13:29:13 Originally by: Nyabinghi I do disagree with some points you made, I'll elaborate: OK let's make this clear AUTOPILOT CARGO HAULING IN HIGH SEC IS NOT A CRIME. By nature hauling goods often means traveling long distances. Even warp to zero gate to gate travel across EVE can be time consuming. Some haulers go AFK, some are busy checking markets, conducting business, etc. Just because a hauler has his or her ship on autopilot doesn't mean it deserves to be blown up. So let's get off blaming the victim. Having said that, yes it's obviously safer to not be AFK or otherwise to not autopilot all the time through EVE. If your cargo is quite valuable then it's better to be safe than sorry. Just because you can do a thing does not mean you should do a thing. The OP is correct, pilots who are not giving their full attention to flying, i.e., autopilot, afk, watching the Girls Next Door, are the victims of SGs. These pilots are making themselves targets. As the OP says, those pilots that take the measures to make themselves harder targets are going to decrese their chances of being SGed. "If you are tired, you are wrong." If a pilot does not want to stay "awake" during a long trip that is their decision. Not a good decision, but their's none the less. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:30:00 - [52] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban This entire thread wins - the OP espectially, but also the commentors - it's very rare to find such a well thought out and reasoned discussion outside of Features. It's especially good because it finally shows that there are reasonable measures that can be made to protect yourself, and despite that there are still a few holes that could do with plugging, in non-gamebreaking ways. I've never suicide ganked, nor do I ever intend to, but I'm all for everyone having their fun. I think the win is especially thanks to its origin actually. Most threads about suicide ganking are done either by pirates defending their right to pew pew, or carebears still infuriated with the loss of their latest meta level 4 loaded itty V trying to get the whole process outlawed or made impossible. This post was actually a "white hat" post. Made by a carebear who went over to the dark side to see things for himself (and who may by his own admission now be permanently lost to the dark side as he has the scent of burning wreckage haunting his nostrils now ). Goes to show that a good argument always should take both sides of the fence into consideration, instead of blindly boring down on the goal it tries to achieve. (and yes, this is a disguised bump to keep all the DT whines from pushing this much more worthwhile thread down to the 2nd page)
Vymorna Grom Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:35:00 - [53] Thread printed and duly laminated. ---------------------------------- Originally by: Ralara Because you touch yourself at night. (dear god, that took 9 logins to post)
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:48:00 - [54] very nice post and some great ideas... id like to pint out the transport ship thing allso :P bot of my alts fly t2 transports (the fast ones mostly) and sofar i havent been locked and scanned once :P they warp too fast and cant be stopped very easily. then again.. i never afk travel whit stuff in my cargo hold whit them :D ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Timaios Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.19 14:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Timaios on 19/03/2008 14:10:56 Extremely nice post, Keva. I'd like to add a few comments: I've been both suicide ganking and once lost a ship to it too. If I move something valuable, it's by using a instawarping cloaking MWD blockade runner or a freighter. Nowadays the pilots with expensive stuff in the cargo are warping to zero and not flying on autopilot. So, if one really wants to earn ISK, or more than running missions, one needs to target the outgoing traffic. Here's a few ideas on how to do it (requires dual accounting): First, you need an alt in a frigate with at least three medslots and a good number of lows. Sit at an outgoing gate one system away from were you are planning to do the gank. Use a passive targeter to lock all haulers and do both a cargo and a ship scan on them. Avoid the ones which are extensively tanked. It's a good idea to sit within 15km of the gate in a spot as if you had arrived there AFK on autopilot just to look a bit less suspicious. Once you have a target and he jumps into your system, a) use an armageddon with pulses, sensor boosters and signal amplifiers. Shoot. b) use a battlecruiser. Position yourself within 7-8 km from the gate - you'll be able to cover approximately half of the space around the gate. Approximately half of the time your target will be over 10km away from you (appearing on the other side of the gate). If he does, don't bother. If he is within 10km of you, lock, scram, bump, unleash drones and activate guns. Make sure not to aggress immediately, but only after few seconds - the target won't be aligned yet but you gain some extra time before concord arrives. Against tanked targets those seconds will make a difference. Use faction ammo, about 10 rounds per gun. Set up for max damage, tank with a DC. To echo what Keva said, to really earn something with suicide ganking, one needs patience. Lots and lots of patience.
Darwin Duck Ark Royals	Posted - 2008.03.19 14:15:00 - [56] Reducing insurance payouts to 50% when killed by concord sounds reasonable, you could even argue you would not get anything from the insurance. If you crash your car while drunkdriving you get nothing, if you crash it while speeding you get nothing and so on. This will probably come back and bite me in the a.. , Sounds tempting to try some kamakazi runs just for the kicks. I haven't been suicide ganked yet (knock on wood) but I guess only mining an hour a week in the corp op is the reason. From what I see on the forums it seems widespread, but still haven't seen any kamakazi's
Meridius Dex Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.19 15:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Maik002 CCP. please add some hardpoints to freighters... ^^^^^ THIS! -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
CRUSH BOSS BigMek Industries GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 16:12:00 - [58] Yawn ... All empire hulks will die. Nothing new here. "I love the smell of burning fur in the morning" We fight for the ONE - We die for the ONE Don't troll in your signature please. -Hango
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 16:17:00 - [59] Originally by: CRUSH BOSS Yawn ... All empire hulks will die. Nothing new here. "I love the smell of burning fur in the morning" Keep up the good work. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:19:00 - [60] Originally by: Sumerio Rayej The only potential problem is that it doesn't let people jump right into a try at piracy during their trial period. I imagine that wouldn't be a very big deal, though. These actions are not "illegal" in nullsec, they could always go down there and try. --- 1. Fit wrong stuff to ship 2. Post screenshot in Eve Forums 3. ???? 4. PROFIT!
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:31:00 - [61] Originally by: AleRiperKilt Originally by: Sumerio Rayej The only potential problem is that it doesn't let people jump right into a try at piracy during their trial period. I imagine that wouldn't be a very big deal, though. These actions are not "illegal" in nullsec, they could always go down there and try. Or lo-sec, come to that. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sintho Defenders of Roden	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:37:00 - [62] Changeing insurance payout is really not a good option at all. Unless you want to add much more risk for going into low sec. This post isnt about low sec but if insurance is changed low sec will be much more risky.(Though some people are trying to mess with Myrm market recently and up the price of it.) Sintho
Rakshasa Taisab Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:39:00 - [63] A post full of common sense... That isn't as common as it should be. Having hauled through both empire and 0.0 for a while now, I have to say the most important part of the OP is; Focus (only) on HP buffer and resistance. The same extends to the hulks being suicide bombed these days... Your going to be AFK or semi-AFK anyway, so it's not like any active modules will help you. --- Author of rTorrent, the BitTorrent client for real men and mice.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:49:00 - [64] Very good ideas the OP shared with us. A Raven with decent skills and fittings can do around 800 DPS, multiply that by 4 Ravens and by 20 seconds (0.5 sec) and you get enough firepower to destroy any ship's tank. If it's not enough just add another Raven to the mix. There no way anyone can tank a well organized suicide gank. Not even a well organized carebear! And there's where the problem is. Some of your ideas should be put in place, untill then, lets all grab some friends and have fun suiciding people and making good proffit from it. I disagree with the op in regards to shuttles. They are unbeateble transport ships in high sec, providing you are not AFK and you only need 10m3.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:13:00 - [65] Originally by: Blindone1 Very good ideas the OP shared with us. A Raven with decent skills and fittings can do around 800 DPS, multiply that by 4 Ravens and by 20 seconds (0.5 sec) and you get enough firepower to destroy any ship's tank. If it's not enough just add another Raven to the mix. There no way anyone can tank a well organized suicide gank. Not even a well organized carebear! And there's where the problem is. Some of your ideas should be put in place, untill then, lets all grab some friends and have fun suiciding people and making good proffit from it. I disagree with the op in regards to shuttles. They are unbeateble transport ships in high sec, providing you are not AFK and you only need 10m3. But characters that can do 800 DPS are not disposable alts, by definition. So the sec penalties do apply. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:18:00 - [66] Edited by: Blindone1 on 19/03/2008 18:20:10 Recycling disposable alts and avoiding the sec hit is against the rules, by definition
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:20:00 - [67] Originally by: Blindone1 A Raven with decent skills and fittings can do around 800 DPS, multiply that by 4 Ravens and by 20 seconds (0.5 sec) and you get enough firepower to destroy any ship's tank. If it's not enough just add another Raven to the mix. There no way anyone can tank a well organized suicide gank. Not even a well organized carebear! And there's where the problem is. I would be interested in what setup can do 800 DPS cheaply. Using BS sized T2 components makes profiting from suicide attacks very difficult. Even assuming 880DPS * 4 attackers = 3200DPS * 20 sec = 64K damage. Some of the T2 transport or BS tanks I showed have for more EHP. It would take 2-3 times as many ships (8-12 BS). At some point it becomes a situation of opportunity cost. Sure infinite ships at infinite cost can destroy anything but why would they? More profit, more chaos, more fun can be had by destroyed a dozen untanked ships in the time/cost it takes to setup this massive suicide run Let's look at the numbers 12 BS w/ T2 gear? and a net loss of 30 mil a piece = loss of 360 mil can destroy one tanked transport/battleship/freighter. Let's say the transport is carrying 1 billion. Half is lost in the destruction. 500 mill - 360 mil suicide loss = 140 mill profit / 12+ attackes = net gain <20 mil. Those 12 pirates could make 2-3 as much just solo destroying the dozens and dozens and dozens of AFK untanked indies carrying 20, 50, 200 mill worth of loot. It comes down to a number game. At some point unless there is some inside job (spy telling a pirate corp a transport/freighter is going this way with 2bil+ in it's cargo hold) it doesn't make sense to assemble these massive T2 fitted suicide fleets when more isk can be made solo in cheap BC. I am not saying massive attacks on transports/hauling BS/freighters don't happen. However the odds of being attacked like that are a magnitude lower. Just some guesses: If your odds in being attacked untanked AFK in indy are 10%. Your odds being successfully attacked in tanked indy WTZ are like 1% Your odds being successfully attacked by massive 12+ BS fleet are like 0.01%.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:38:00 - [68] Keva, Arbalest siege launchers go for just 375000 max these days. 5 BCU's II only take 5 Mill, don't tell me that it's a expensive fitting. CN siege missiles, just enough loaded for 20 sec fire don't add much either. I don't think this is a expensive tech 2 fit. It has tech 2 but it's not that expensive. I got ganked in a ship with a bigger HP buffer than the best of your setups (freighters not included), no resist holes, and a booster that had the opportunity to give me some more 10000 Hp's more. You know how many BS's fired at me? Only 4!!! I was not AFK, I had my tank running, there was nothing I could do other than stay docked with that expensive ship. I'm also not complaining about it. I knew the risks, I accepted them, I wish GL to the now billionaires who got my loot. I just think that some things need to be tweaked, so that next time I can stand a chance if I use another expensive ship, providing I take some precautions. Someone please tell me what can I do to use a CNR with 1 Estamel Inv field, 2 CNR BCS and a Gist B Xlarge SB, with some kind of a chance? (not my real loss BTW never seen any Estamel loot )
DogSlime Wilde Cards	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:41:00 - [69] Excellent post.
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:46:00 - [70] Edited by: Zorlag on 19/03/2008 18:46:46 it's quite possible to make an entirely t1 ship that pumps out 800 dps. Well, with medium skills, anyway.
Dreaded Chaos State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:47:00 - [71] How can you kill a freighter in 20 seconds? Can 10 Ravens pop a freighter that fast? On the other side. What can a freighter pilot do to avoid getting ganked? You can't add any fittings. Outbound you turn and align to slow to get away don't you? To the OP, I like your idea's and very good contructive post, well done :)
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:56:00 - [72] Originally by: Blindone1 Keva, Arbalest siege launchers go for just 375000 max these days. 5 BCU's II only take 5 Mill, don't tell me that it's a expensive fitting. CN siege missiles, just enough loaded for 20 sec fire don't add much either. I don't think this is a expensive tech 2 fit. It has tech 2 but it's not that expensive. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. Looks like 800DPS can be obtained that way. Quote: I got ganked in a ship with a bigger HP buffer than the best of your setups (freighters not included), no resist holes, and a booster that had the opportunity to give me some more 10000 Hp's more. You know how many BS's fired at me? Only 4!!! I was not AFK, I had my tank running, there was nothing I could do other than stay docked with that expensive ship. This didn't happen in highsec did it? With every skill in game at level 5 the setup you showed does 924DPS. 4 ship, 20 seconds = 74K damage. Also how were you able to boost 10K HP in 20 sec? That's 500 HP/sec. I am just curious how this happened in high-sec.
Cheng Yu Sadistic Legion of Unforgivable Thieves	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Dreaded Chaos On the other side. What can a freighter pilot do to avoid getting ganked? You can't add any fittings. Outbound you turn and align to slow to get away don't you? If your on your own there nothing you can do. Get in a corp and have a corp mate in a fast locking ship stick a couple of webs on you, the more the merrier.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 19:01:00 - [74] Edited by: Blindone1 on 19/03/2008 19:03:11 It did happen in 0.5 about 1 month ago, in a medium mission hub. At first i thought, nice, they'll have a surprise, only 4 of them! then the surprise was mine The 5th guy showed as 0 damage done to me in KM. Maybe he had drones on me, I don't know... That way it would have been 5. The 10000 HP's buffed were including resists, not raw points, DPS has to go through resists, so 800 or 900 DPS are actually much lower than that in practice.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 19:15:00 - [75] Originally by: Dreaded Chaos How can you kill a freighter in 20 seconds? Can 10 Ravens pop a freighter that fast? Yes. Using setup listed by blindone1 a raven can do about 800dps with decent skills. 800dps * 10 ships * 20 sec = 160K dmg. Thats just enough to pop a freighter. Quote: On the other side. What can a freighter pilot do to avoid getting ganked? You can't add any fittings. Outbound you turn and align to slow to get away don't you? A scout is required. 10 battleships at the gate might be an indication that it is not safe. Stick to higher sec. Concord time depends on sec level. Shorter time will require more ships. Also I have heard of methods to use support ships to allow freighters to insta-warp
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.19 19:47:00 - [76] Keva- nice write up, but the ISK/hour thing? You're doing it wrong. Killing haulers that are WTZ is difficult and hard work, but the WTZ guys are where the ISK is. It's extremely difficult with only one person, but with two it's managable. Inside of a week, hunting for about 3-4 hours per evening, for I'd say 4-5 days (can't recall exactly) I think the total take for all involved was about 10-12 billion, and that's just concentrating on T1 haulers, not transports or freighters. This is what we took home. Sadly, we vaporized approximately 6-10 times as much as we were able to scoop. That's upwards of 60-100b in damage inside of a week. It's heartbreaking to see 10b worth of morphite or datacores go up in smoke. So close, and yet so far away lol. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Illegal if you must must go AFK then use your AP settings to avoid 0.6 and down to reduce the chance of a gank. LOL, what settings would THOSE be? There are unavoidable sections of 0.5, especially between regions. That is often where the ganks happen. Because of this absolute garbage of highsec suicide gangs, I don't even fly valuable haulers of ANY configuration, certainly not autopiloted and not even manually. I've looked at the thread setups and while interesting, none of them are going to save you in every situation. All it takes is a big enough gank squad and I don't care what your optimally-tanked hauler has, it's done. This is just one more instance of multiple-account crap. Now you need an alt scout EVEN IN HIGHSEC.
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's heartbreaking to see 10b worth of morphite or datacores go up in smoke. So close, and yet so far away lol. Oh I feel so bad for you, you piece of filth. Watch out, some unnamed alt may "accidentally" smartbomb your +5 clone as you undock, then you'll have something to cry about.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.20 00:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Chelone Oh I feel so bad for you, you piece of filth. Watch out, some unnamed alt may "accidentally" smartbomb your +5 clone as you undock, then you'll have something to cry about. A bitter one, this is...
telxkiskisrowr The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 00:49:00 - [80] my badger gets fit with shield expanders and passive hardeners even when empty. frigate gangs have died on gates to the sentry guns trying to shoot it. shield tanks win on haulers because they don't use low slots. otherwise i don't find many issues with the op my 2 cents
Stefx Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:24:00 - [81] Originally by: Keva Edited by: Keva on 18/03/2008 23:41:12 So I decided I needed some intel. How quick does Concord respond? Found out I have about 20 seconds in 0.5-0.6 space and about 8 seconds in 1.0 space. 0.5 FTW. Excellent OP. One question. If there is already a Concord squad around, is the response instant when a suicide ganker attacks you (from the Concord already there) or does a new Concord squad spawn (the one already there ignores the ganker)? ----------- MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc
Nebuchadnezzar I Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:42:00 - [82] Great post :) Basically, nerf insurance is the way to go to balance it out. Loaded targets could still be blown up with a huge profit to the gankers, but it removes the pitiful loss of 5-15m depending on shiptype and setup to suiciders. As it stands right now the only things limiting suicide ganks is sec loss oh and the boredom i guess. Bores the ** out of me, thus i said ** it.
Timaios Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.20 09:05:00 - [83] Oh, one thing I would like to add: If you are flying a hauler, there's also a certain factor that will make you far less likely to be suicide ganked: the time it takes you to align. The minimum time the ship scanning you needs is: the human delay in selecting you as a target + time it takes to lock you + 3 secs for a cargo scanner to complete it's cycle. If you can warp faster than that, you're far safer, since you cannot be scanned. If someone targets you, it's just by guessing. Blockade runners are very good in this respect. Shield tanking, while the being the preferred method of tanking the haulers, is counterproductive if you want to focus on avoiding cargo scans, as shield extenders increase your sig radius.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:14:00 - [84] Originally by: DogSlime Excellent post.
Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:50:00 - [85] Originally by: Stefx Originally by: Keva Edited by: Keva on 18/03/2008 23:41:12 So I decided I needed some intel. How quick does Concord respond? Found out I have about 20 seconds in 0.5-0.6 space and about 8 seconds in 1.0 space. 0.5 FTW. Excellent OP. One question. If there is already a Concord squad around, is the response instant when a suicide ganker attacks you (from the Concord already there) or does a new Concord squad spawn (the one already there ignores the ganker)? I second this question - anyone know the answer?
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:06:00 - [86] Great post. However, one thing I don't quite agree: If all players stopped flying AFK honestly suicide ganking would drop by 90%. Not sure about this. The suicide ganking that worries me, because there IS no real (or reasonable) defense against it is ganking barges in belts, and ganking mission ships such as CNRs. A few torp Ravens can pop a CNR I guess before Concord shows, and being in a mission tells everyone where your resistance hole is. Apart from that, I mostly agree. --
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:08:00 - [87] Originally by: Stefx One question. If there is already a Concord squad around, is the response instant when a suicide ganker attacks you (from the Concord already there) or does a new Concord squad spawn (the one already there ignores the ganker)? I once read a miners guide that advised to spawn concord yourself because they'd hang arround and then have a much faster response time. So that suggests the former but I never verified it. --
Zarin University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:26:00 - [88] Originally by: Shanur Smartbombs aren't really an option for high sec. The added crowds make the risk of hitting something else before your target if you just leave them on too great, and if you only turn them on when you see the blockade runner he'll be gone in less than those 7 seconds. SB's are really a lowsec tactic, and lowsec works markedly different from suicide ganking. A deep space transport should be able to tank out those SB's with ease. When you are suicide ganking you don't need to worry about hitting someone else anyway, since you have already called in concord by setting them off, this isn't theorycraft, I have seen it happen, armageddon goes for a lucky bump on a transport (viator at that), makes the bump stopping it from warping then sets off smartbombs, 7 seconds later the viator explodes. The char doing this was 22 days old. And this is a T2 hauler, perhaps unlucky that it didn't get to warp, probably expander fitted, but still, that in highsec a 22 day old can do that to a ship designed to avoid just that.... well This was in highsec, and concord did arrive, but a second or so too late. This isn't 6 month+ old chars burning their sec status on that one juicy afk hauler kill, it's people recycling chars that mean nothing to them and are able to do it with a few mil outlay and virtually no risk.
Keva	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Zarin When you are suicide ganking you don't need to worry about hitting someone else anyway, since you have already called in concord by setting them off, this isn't theorycraft, I have seen it happen, armageddon goes for a lucky bump on a transport (viator at that), makes the bump stopping it from warping then sets off smartbombs, 7 seconds later the viator explodes. The char doing this was 22 days old. And this is a T2 hauler, perhaps unlucky that it didn't get to warp, probably expander fitted, but still, that in highsec a 22 day old can do that to a ship designed to avoid just that.... well This was in highsec, and concord did arrive, but a second or so too late. This isn't 6 month+ old chars burning their sec status on that one juicy afk hauler kill, it's people recycling chars that mean nothing to them and are able to do it with a few mil outlay and virtually no risk. Not possible to destroy Viator in 7 sec w/ smart bombs. If the viator was destroyed in 20sec then viator pilot didn't take even the most basic precautions. 8 Large Smartbombs do 2000 dmg per volley. ROF is 10sec. Only skill that affects SB is Energy Pulse Weapons. Level 5 would drop ROF to 7.5 sec. So +2000dmg then 7.5 sec later +2000 more dmg. So in 7.5 sec (2 volleys at most that is 4000dmg). Even using T2 SB it would only be 5600dmg. A base viator has 8600 EHP (effective HP). Simply not possible to destroy one in 2 volleys. So either you are mistaken or there were other ships involved, or viator was already damaged. Now a viator taking no precautions can be destroyed: 4 volleys = 8000 DMG. Vialtor w/ expanded cargo II x3, Cargo Opt. Rig x2 will only have 6800 EHP. However I have no sympathy. Just fitting Medium Shield Extender II x3 and flying AFK would boost HP to 12K. Dropping one cargo expander and one cargo opt for a 400mm armor plate would boost EHP to 16K. Three points to take from the post: 1) IMHO Heavy Transports are much better than Blockade Runners because of their ability to generate some massive static tanks. While avoiding a scramble and warping fast is a good defense it can be unpredictable. Having a massive tank and WTZ greatly improves survival rate. 2) If you use a Blockade Runner you need to take some precautions to get your EHP up OR get warp align times down (3x Nano in low to get warp align down to about 3 sec). Don't wsste low slots trying to do both. Of course even the most basic tanking (3x Medium Shield Extenders) would have saved the ship in your example. 3) Smartbombs generally suck for suicide attacks against anything tanked because they can't be boosted by any low slot modules. A decent BC tan do about 400dps. A BS w/ T2 dmg mods can do 600-800 dps. A BS w/ smatbombs is capped at 267dps (360 w/ T2 smartbombs).
Celot	Posted - 2008.03.21 20:23:00 - [90] Edited by: Celot on 21/03/2008 20:23:25 Originally by: Keva Originally by: Blindone1 A Raven with decent skills and fittings can do around 800 DPS, multiply that by 4 Ravens and by 20 seconds (0.5 sec) and you get enough firepower to destroy any ship's tank. If it's not enough just add another Raven to the mix. There no way anyone can tank a well organized suicide gank. Not even a well organized carebear! And there's where the problem is. I would be interested in what setup can do 800 DPS cheaply. Using BS sized T2 components makes profiting from suicide attacks very difficult. Even assuming 880DPS * 4 attackers = 3200DPS * 20 sec = 64K damage. Some of the T2 transport or BS tanks I showed have for more EHP. It would take 2-3 times as many ships (8-12 BS). At some point it becomes a situation of opportunity cost. Sure infinite ships at infinite cost can destroy anything but why would they? More profit, more chaos, more fun can be had by destroyed a dozen untanked ships in the time/cost it takes to setup this massive suicide run Let's look at the numbers 12 BS w/ T2 gear? and a net loss of 30 mil a piece = loss of 360 mil can destroy one tanked transport/battleship/freighter. Let's say the transport is carrying 1 billion. Half is lost in the destruction. 500 mill - 360 mil suicide loss = 140 mill profit / 12+ attackes = net gain <20 mil. Those 12 pirates could make 2-3 as much just solo destroying the dozens and dozens and dozens of AFK untanked indies carrying 20, 50, 200 mill worth of loot. It comes down to a number game. At some point unless there is some inside job (spy telling a pirate corp a transport/freighter is going this way with 2bil+ in it's cargo hold) it doesn't make sense to assemble these massive T2 fitted suicide fleets when more isk can be made solo in cheap BC. I am not saying massive attacks on transports/hauling BS/freighters don't happen. However the odds of being attacked like that are a magnitude lower. Just some guesses: If your odds in being attacked untanked AFK in indy are 10%. Your odds being successfully attacked in tanked indy WTZ are like 1% Your odds being successfully attacked by massive 12+ BS fleet are like 0.01%. you're dumb, a t1 dominix does 1000
Keva	Posted - 2008.03.21 20:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Celot you're dumb, a t1 dominix does 1000 Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles. I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:29:00 - [92] This is a great post. But what makes it great isn't all the info passed on to people, though it is a very good summary. What makes it great is this attitude: Originally by: Keva ... I decided to find out how hard is suicide ganking (from now on called SG because I am a lazy carebear). How much work does it take to SG? How boring is it to SG? Can you defend yourself from a SG? Do people still fly AFK with billions in their cargohold? ... The attitude of, "I will walk a mile in another man's shoes to see what it's really like". Trying it out for yourself instead of *****ing about something without really knowing the details. My god that's refreshing... If only more people would think this way. There would be a heck of alot less ranty nerf threads, that's for sure. So a big salute to the OP for being a great example. o7 Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Stefx Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:36:00 - [93] Seems like 3 pages of intelligent discussion was the limit ;-) ----------- MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc
AonChilo Madison Industrial Co. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:52:00 - [94] Good post Keva. An excellent & smackfree analysis of the issue. Cheers
Celot	Posted - 2008.03.21 23:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Keva Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles. I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested. here let me give you our setups and our fleet doctrine and our consolidated article on suicide ganking oh wait I see what you're doin here
Stefx	Posted - 2008.03.22 00:58:00 - [96] Good point, Celot, but why the flame post? ----------- MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc
Kumq uat	Posted - 2008.03.22 03:05:00 - [97] My friend and I saw an Amarr deep sapce transport sitting on a gate for 30 minutes. Apparantly one of those arrived people in a .7. I took a Brutix and he a Scorp. We actually took him out and my Brutix ending up doing about 7000 damage. One fo the tricks of the trade is to have drones out. Sometimes they will attack them first and buy you a second or two. ------------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author and goat molestor. Herrooooooo Kitty!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.03.22 04:21:00 - [98] Good Post SKUNK
Chelone	Posted - 2008.03.22 04:36:00 - [99] Edited by: Chelone on 22/03/2008 04:39:45 Originally by: Matrixcvd A bitter one, this is... Not bitter, since I've never had it happen to me, but I know what I hate. Ganking lazy autopiloting haulers is one thing. Making a living out of ruining highsec hauling, even for conscientious pilots is another. _I_ have never gotten ganked. _I_ don't even fly haulers anymore because of this garbage. But with all their victims, I just hope some of them will fork over a little payback. Read this guys. If you got ganked, make the ganker's lives miserable. It takes a little effort, but it's well worth it once you catch them off guard... Here's another idea for making ganker's lives miserable. Take an alt, especially a trial alt. Look for obvious gatecamps. Then just attack. Attack the gankers, maybe their scanning ships, you could even take those out. But the POINT is getting a giant %$!#@$%@! swarm of CONCORD around all the notorious gank spots. Then let's see them take out a defended hauler once 30 concord are sitting in their face on every gate, LOL!
Darwin Duck	Posted - 2008.03.22 05:00:00 - [100] Nobody cares for my bear, so I'll spank my monkey instead!
Nyabinghi	Posted - 2008.03.22 05:31:00 - [101] I never really liked the concept of alts really. It's one of those situations where you give an inch and people take a mile. Reward without risk breaks the fundamentals of what we call a "game." So those who invest in EVE find themselves at the mercy of those who invest little and so it seems the solution is to invest little to succeed. We end up not playing the full game of EVE but rather a smaller, shallower game called "alt wars". You attack me with your disposable alt and I retaliate with my disposable alt. Honestly I don't know why CCP allowed alts to reside on the same servers as their mains. If alts were only playable on a separate server, a separate EVE universe, then there would be no circumventing the rules of the game. You could be a criminal in one instance of EVE and be a good citizen in another instance but neither would reflect on the other. Seems to me that woudl solve a lot of EVE's problems right there. *** Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Khanid Kutie	Posted - 2008.03.22 08:14:00 - [102] Originally by: Keva []Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT. thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true. I have a nighthawk setup on EFT that says "132,000 effective hitpoints"....in reality, when it died....it only took 30,000 dmg. EFT's calculations are done by wannabe programmers who know nothing about how Eve's calcs work. ____________________________________________ Originally by:* Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
Zaqar	Posted - 2008.03.22 09:19:00 - [103] Originally by: Khanid Kutie thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true. EFT-hate-bandwaggoning is for idiots who just parrot stuff they've heard other people saying Tell me, do you know what resistances are?
Guillome Renard Access Services	Posted - 2008.03.22 11:32:00 - [104] Edited by: Guillome Renard on 22/03/2008 11:32:57 I'm going to heap on my own praise to Keva here. Even if I knew your main's name I wouldn't -10 you. :P If anything I'd shell out some cash because the information you just provided to us for free is worth BILLIONS to the right people just in the savings it will provide them. Think whatever you want about having "Gone to the dark side" the truth is, you've probably saved hundreds if not thousands of bears from the gank. You know what that makes you? A big damn hero. I had designs on testing this sort of thing, myself. You've saved me the endless hours of ratting to recover my sec rating. There is still work to be done, however. I too have issues with gankers, but for different reasons than your test subjects. (I refuse to call them victims, for reasons I will get into in a moment.) There are fundamentally two different kinds of gank, and you have explored only the kind that doesn't really bother me at all. Type I - Piracy Ganking: A pirate, contrary to image, is also a businessman. He is in the takings business, not unlike your local tax bureau. There are subtle differences between being the victim of piracy and paying your taxes but the principle is the same: "I've got what it takes, to take what you've got." It's a pity you can't ransom in high-sec, really, but I suppose your victims are afk anyway so whatever. Does this kind of ganking cost me haulers, fittings, and millions in cargo? Sure it does. I see it in low sec more than high-sec though. I've been instapopped decloaking on the wrong side of a .4/.5 interchange more than once. Usually they get my cargo too. So be it, all the more to them for finding a quick way to make obnoxious amounts of money. I see DOZENS of wrecks around them. You have explores this type of SG. But there is another type, and it's requirements are far lower than a Brutix. It's also what I consider to be a real problem. Type II - Grief Ganking. Let us suppose for a moment that you didn't care about losing money. Let us suppose, you didn't care about making money for that matter. Your suicide gank targets are not haulers who are afk and could drop cargo... instead they are new pilots, less than two weeks old, flying Imicus, Catalyst, Osprey, or maybe even a Vexor. These pilots are mining because they don't want to risk hardware that cost them EVERYTHING to buy. They want to save up some money, then they'll do risky stuff... Enter a Kestrel. I've lost a few barges to kestrels in 1.0 systems, albeit I didn't have the skills to tank or understand alignment times and how agility affected that. Hell, I didn't even know what prealignment was... But that's the problem. You were picking on people who a) probably knew better, b) could afford to replace their hardware, and c) weren't really playing the game as much as letting the game happen. Type II gankers go after people are intently playing the game, who are TRYING to learn it, and who have zero hope of following your advice. They have nothing of value for the SG to steal or loot. The SG isn't risking a Brutix, he's losing a Kestrel or something equally cheap. Type II are the only kind of ganker I see. I see them every day, in every system where newbs gather to mine veld and scord. I'm trying to bring people into EVE, but I've had difficulty because they invariably find themselves on the receiving end of a crippling financial loss and they just don't have the skills or savoir faire for me to justify making them whole again and again. I need to develop ways to protect my newbs. I never really cared for the term 'carebear' but I suppose shepherding new pilots earns the title more than any other activity in the game. What insights can you lend to this, genuine dark side of SG? How do you beat someone who doesn't operate on the profit motive? EDIT: P.S. Sun Tzu did, in fact, say something like that. The actual quote is, "Know the enemy, and know thyself; In a thousand battles you will never know peril."
Elis Verone Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.22 11:41:00 - [105] the only real solution to all this is stop insurance if you SG... the fact that insurance companies pay out is lame.
Myth Al'kar	Posted - 2008.03.22 12:01:00 - [106] The whole suicide ganking of miners in high secs thing gets me happy in the pants. Seriously. Thing is, those are a lot of players who pay...so CCP will nerf it :(
Jesona Rove Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.22 17:41:00 - [107] Originally by: Venkul Mul I think this in one of the few instances where a shield tanker is better in PvP. The transport ships set up for shield tanking have a better chance to survive than those thought for armor tanking. They can set up for faster getaway while an armor tanker is slower accelerating and warping. Youre not getting it. No one can warp away from suicide ganks.
Neal Cassady	Posted - 2008.03.22 18:51:00 - [108] Originally by: Sergeant Spot Thats one of the reasons I'd like to see zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord. you want to kill low sec pvp? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ksidyn Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:25:00 - [109] Well what if you just reduced (or removed, though I'd probably prefer reduced) payouts for the people who were actually Concorded? Then it wouldn't affect lowsec at all only the high sec SG's.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:37:00 - [110] A criminal is a criminal is a criminal. Why should any lawful organization want to insure your ship? Risk vs reward, if you do the crime then be willing to pay the price. ***
Eevul Rabbite Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:55:00 - [111] Originally by: Khanid Kutie Originally by: Keva []Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT. thats your problem right there....EFT is for idiots who think those numbers are true. I have a nighthawk setup on EFT that says "132,000 effective hitpoints"....in reality, when it died....it only took 30,000 dmg.* EFT's calculations are done by wannabe programmers who know nothing about how Eve's calcs work. You just proved the person who knows nothing about how Eve's calcs work is yourself. EFT is correct. Hint: "effective hitpoints" in EFT is your actual hitpoints with resists factored in, assuming damage types are even. It's a virtual number but gives an estimate of raw damage your ship can take. EFT shows your actual hitpoints below, the exact same amounts as EVE No wonder suiciding is still profitable!
Billy Sastard Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.03.22 20:48:00 - [112] Keva, you are too good @ EVE to be a carebear Good OP and good thread (for the most part). -=^=-
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.03.22 21:40:00 - [113] Originally by: Nyabinghi Honestly I don't know why CCP allowed alts to reside on the same servers as their mains. ...money ? There is a reason only alts from extra accounts can train separately. Alts give lots of advantages , and require GTCs to be used to their full potential. Extra income for CCP. Some dev admitted it was a pretty terrible mistake (game balance wise) to allow alts and multiple accounts , but it's not going to be changed now , that's for sure. I have no problem surviving in Eve with no alts. It's not that hard to adapt , even as an outlaw. Sure , game balance would be better without disposable suicide gank alts. But highsec activities shouldn't be so ridiculously profitable compared to lowsec in the first place. Pirates follow the fattest victims. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu edit: Wow, that was unpleasant, I felt pity for someone. Won't happen again.
EvilweaselFinance GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.22 22:56:00 - [114] Originally by: Keva Originally by: Celot you're dumb, a t1 dominix does 1000 Care to post the setup. Others have more usefully replied with more than a single sentence flame and shown 800dps ravens w/ named launcher & faction missiles. I haven't seen anything that can cheaply do 1000dps. I would be interested. I'm not going to post our setups either but your estimates of the max DPS you can get out of a ship aren't very good.
Kano Sekor Raging Phoenix	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:44:00 - [115] Regarding the scan counter there is actually a skill that was intended to go ingame that was called "Black market trading" that was basically a skill that couldve been called "smuggling". But basically it was about customs scanning you had a higher chance of missing youre malicous cargo. This skill can be augmentet do show nothing for a cargo scan (and of course be put in game so i get some use of my SPs invested in that) (hey atleast smuggling sounded cool when i was a nub)
Terazuk Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.03.23 03:10:00 - [116] A most excellent post.. bookmarking this one for future whine spamming.

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