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Xen Gin
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:45:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Xen Gin on 25/03/2008 03:49:12
Edited by: Xen Gin on 25/03/2008 03:45:42
I don't think there's anything wrong with suicide ganking, but there seems an obvious in balance on how industrials can retaliate on the same level.
There also seems to be little repercussions for the Goon corp as an entity. If a group started taking out people driving cars by ramming them, in any rational country, the group would be outlawed as criminals or even terrorists.
The problem is that there is really no interaction between Empire/NPC factions and Player controlled alliances and corps and the actions. The security rating is a load of bull, and neither shows there players past indiscretions or carry any meaningful value to Empire factions.
Simply put there aren't any real repercussions for acting against the law of the factions and concord.
Repercussions for an alliance/corp that is committing acts of crimes should be something like x% amount of tax on corp/alliance market transactions, outlawing the offending criminals in empire, even to the point where concord/faction actively hunt down those that enter systems. Also maybe when they destroy your ship, your pod gets tractored and put into jail to serve time or post bail.
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Doc Fury
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:49:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Doc Fury on 25/03/2008 03:49:33
Allow anyone to sell or trade their kill rights and the consequences/repercussions have been restored.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:55:00 -
[123]
Didn't they say in the latest live dev blog that they were going to rework the insurance?
If so, then maybe they will introduce the rule that if you lose your ship due to some criminal activity in high sec then your insurance is null and void.
I mean if they void the insurance if you repackage a ship, lol... why would commiting a crime with it not be as bad?
If they did this, then it still would be dangerous no matter where you go in eve, which is a nice feature to the game. But would make it more costly for people who want to grief non-stop.
Maybe Goons are trying to finally trying to come full circle and do whatever it takes to destroy the game.
Wish they would go to WoW to do stuff like that. No one would miss them tbfh.
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Norjia Blacksteel
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:10:00 -
[124]
 Originally by: Dingi223
...since I love the idea of twitch-based flying.
I don't, not in an MMO at least. I play Quake 3 daily at work, and the thought of playing an MMO where you have to deal with the equivalent people like me rocket-jumping all over the place is not appealing.
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Norjia Blacksteel
CEO
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:10:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Vymorna Grom
Another Case of FAILURE TO ADAPT.
Ummm... Adapt you mean by not flying a Hulk at all? Or maybe not mine at all?
If you were gonna mine with a hulk in empire, please... how would you adapt?
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Norjia Blacksteel
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:11:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Norjia Blacksteel on 25/03/2008 04:13:14
Originally by: Doc Fury
Edited by: Doc Fury on 25/03/2008 03:49:33
Allow anyone to sell or trade their kill rights and the consequences/repercussions have been restored.
Wow... now that's an interesting idea! My SO's dad would love that; he helped institute pollution credit trading in industry.
I really like that idea. It would give teeth to the kill rights system.
Edit: Big, nasty teeth.
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Norjia Blacksteel
CEO
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:12:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Norjia Blacksteel
Originally by: Dingi223
...since I love the idea of twitch-based flying.
I don't, not in an MMO at least. I play Quake 3 daily at work, and the thought of playing an MMO where you have to deal with the equivalent people like me rocket-jumping all over the place is not appealing.
You get to play games at work? Where can I submit my resume? 
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Norjia Blacksteel
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:14:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
You get to play games at work? Where can I submit my resume?
Hehe. We play for one hour at lunchtime. I'm a game programmer, so it comes with the territory. :)
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Norjia Blacksteel
CEO
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
Talon Aidian
Skill Level Six
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:28:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Talon Aidian on 25/03/2008 04:33:24
Edited by: Talon Aidian on 25/03/2008 04:32:40
Edited by: Talon Aidian on 25/03/2008 04:28:48
Once again we see the huge numbers of players in EVE who cannot see the game as anything else other than a more complicated form of Doom (and is probably the game they came to EVE from). To these unfortunates, there is nothing else in EVE but combat and warfare.
Here's some news: EVE is -not- PVP. PVP is one of the aspects of the game, but so is economic commerce, empire building, and interaction between players. If it was PVP, I'm sure there would be no ISK (we'd all just get free ships to go kill and be killed in every day...no need to put in money that just gets in the way of combat), installation/station upkeep (again, gets in the way of knocking heads together, and after all, requires more thought than is healthy in PVPers), and there'd be no need for chat channels (after all, what is there to say worth hearing from a player who just wants to kill you?).
The truth is that no single aspect of EVE makes it the game it is. What attracts people to EVE is all of the aspects that interact together. Take away the non-combat aspects, and EVE becomes no better than a 24/7 game of deathmatch Unreal.
The same PVPers who claim the OP could have just jumped into a combat ship and gone after the Goons are also missing this very critical point, and obviously can't conceive of a player who has a character with little or no combat skills. Such a thing as a dedicated merchant or miner character simply doesn't exist in their (limited) universe.
Even if the merchant -had- combat skills, those same PVPers would have called him a poor player if he -had- done what they claim he should have, as he would have gone flying solo against as many Goons as could pile on him (they never fight without outnumbering their foe 2 to 1 at least, and prefer targets that can't shoot back....much more a test of their skill, you see, when they can't lose).
Perhaps it's time we eliminated clones and alts altogether. If you die in combat, that's that. You have the same fate as all the crewmen on your ship (remember...the other people aboard the ship who also happen to trust you to keep them alive?). What do you think the agency that maintains your cloning abilities would do to a commander who consistently cost them ships and thousands of crewmen every time they space? Probably not clone that commander next time he costs them another crew. You also only have one skull to put your brain in...no more hiding behind an alt that you use like a suicidal zombie while your 'real' character hides safe in a station.
Of course, this won't happen (PVPers would probably the most vocal detractors of the idea if it even saw a chance of being implemented). Neither will the PVPer's most ardent wish that EVE become a non-stop arena fight come to pass. Both would cause EVE to cease being EVE.
Instead of denegrating the players who chose not to go the route of combatant, the playerbase should take a long look at themselves and ask if they'd feel any different if the part of the game they'd chosen to specialize in were put in the same jeapordy tomorrow (say by economic players finding a loophole that allowed them to repossess and ban sales of specific ships to or from specific players, or miners discovering that the same lasers built to bore through miles of rock work pretty good at coring stations and capital ships at a single shot).
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Spacy Tracy
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:37:00 -
[130]
Said it before and I'll say it again. All you leet fanboys trotting out the tiresome "it's a peeveepee game, noob!" and "get a ship and fight back" are all in for a rude surprise.
It's not going to be people leaving, prices going up or any other uninformed carebear wishes.
No - what you idiots don't realize is that CCP will eventually react. They've done it before re: high sec ganking and they'll do it again.
For the real room temperature IQ crowd : Goonswarm is doing this to ruin your game. You, the hardcore guy. They want to antagonize CCP so that your precious pvp-enabled game gets nerfed.
You're all smarmy and "loving the tears" now. But you'll be ultra-whining up a storm when CCP takes the next step in rubberizing the game because you guys couldn't police yourselves.
::shrug::
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Loyal Servant
Viper Intel Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:44:00 -
[131]
OP: I have something that reminds me of you.
crybabies...
Which one is you?
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Galmineore
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:50:00 -
[132]
.
If the insurance payouts equaled or even came close to the market value of the Hulks, Macks and other highly overpriced ships, then the miner would get back most of the loss.
At the present, the top insurance rate does not even cover 30 % of a T2 exhumer's cost.
If some one has only just got their exhumer and it get's gooned, then it could be weeks before they get enough isk to replace it and the fittings.
Running several mining ships, it took about 6 (goon free) hours for me to cover the cost of a replacement ship and fittings. But how many miners can do that ? The goon lost a 20 mill BC and fittings to my 120 mill. But since then, i been salvaging goon wrecks and refining their stuff to sell. 
Currently i am helping a friend's project to buy a mothership, fittings and skill books. Also he needs ISK for his journey towards a titan (he can buy that ship out of his own pocket). If it wern't for me, it would take him months longer to get the ISK.
The goons are not helping that project by disrupting my mining time. But that the way things go in EVE. Always some jackass to liven things up.
But their reference to Allah and others things could cause trouble if reported to the British Muslim Council in the UK. They may think the way goons use references to their religion as deflaminty or some thing like that and use the law to have the EVE server (if i remember corectly it is based in the UK) closed down or blocked. The goons are after all bring ones to hate islam by assocation of their annoying actions and their contining reference to Allah's will, jihad, etc. So if some one said something about spreading the good word of Allah, in some people minds it would be linked to an annoying thing that happened in EVE and be then they might/would think of allah in a bad way.
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Loyal Servant
Viper Intel Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:53:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Galmineore
.
If some one has only just got their exhumer and it get's gooned, then it could be weeks before they get enough isk to replace it and the fittings.
'gooned' - I love it.
Eve closed or blocked because someone uses references to islam?
Did not stop the newspaper from publishing a picture of their supposed god?
I think you are an idiot...
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Thornat
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:58:00 -
[134]
No one really knows for sure why Goonswarm has gone on a suiciding rampage but one thing I can tell you with 100% assuridy which should give all you noobies a nice warm fuzzy about Goonsward.
Anyone with even a little bit of Eve experiance and knowledge about Eve history knows that Goonswarm has never been a real threat to anyone other then the inexperianced. In the scope of PvP they have always been a freaking joke and anywhere they go in 0.0 they are like the nerdy kids on the dodge ball team, sweet and easy targets with a mouthful of profanity. If it wasn't for Goonswarm I would never get any kills, cause I suck at PvP and they are the only people I have ever seen in 0.0 who know even less then I do.
so for all those getting ganked in their haulers in 0.0 know this. The only reason they do it, is because they can't get kills anywhere else.
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Spacy Tracy
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:04:00 -
[135]
That's just silly, and clearly untrue. Even though they didn't follow through, they backed the most powerful alliance in the game (BoB) into a corner and gave them a pretty good beating. They're not the noobs popular myth would make them out to be.
No - the reason they're doing it is plain and simple. They're jerks, and they want to ruin your game. That's it. No deeper purpose or "compensation" for personal failings. They're just pure griefers. Ultimately, the real losers will be the people who really enjoy Eve's openness. Most of those are PvP'ers. The carebears - meh.
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Thornat
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:12:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Spacy Tracy
That's just silly, and clearly untrue. Even though they didn't follow through, they backed the most powerful alliance in the game (BoB) into a corner and gave them a pretty good beating. They're not the noobs popular myth would make them out to be.
No - the reason they're doing it is plain and simple. They're jerks, and they want to ruin your game. That's it. No deeper purpose or "compensation" for personal failings. They're just pure griefers. Ultimately, the real losers will be the people who really enjoy Eve's openness. Most of those are PvP'ers. The carebears - meh.
Your joking right? Goonswarm has been kicked out of every corner of 0.0 the moment anyone actually decided to do so. The rare occassion in which they had any success against any oppossition is when they attacked during wars with REAL alliances and no one bothered to make any effort to counter them. I give them props for good timing, but the moment BOB decided to get rid of the pest it was as simple as bringing a small contigent and they would run. I know I was actually there and outside of cursing from docked stations in local despite outnumbering BOB 5 to 1 they did absolutly nothing.
Some things are myths and certainly some generalization don't apply, but historicaly speaking Goonswarm only fame is in the griefing and nuisance of noobies and carebears. In two years of existance they are yet to do anything noteworthy in 0.0 or in Eve in general.
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Selene Lunaglaux
Trit for the Trit Throne
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:17:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Salastil
We've been kicking around the reason why people are whining so hard about this on SA and someone came up with a pretty good summary of it.
Quote:
Really, the actions of JihadSwarm have brought out a lot of whining (hence tag).
These people appear to play EVE despite its pvp focus. Why is that? I think it's because there isn't another good internet spaceship game.
These people want to play internet spaceships, but don't want to PVP. Some of them play EVE and just try to avoid PVP. When they can't, they can't fight back so they whine.
Would be really interesting to see what happens if there's another internet spaceship game that is carebear and not really lousy or minor (like Vendetta Online). Star Trek online might be this but I'd give 97% odds against.
There is a lot of truth to this. However, I would add that it is not necessarily that carebears do not want to pvp. If any sort of reciprocity were available, you wouldn't see nearly as many complaints. It is the whole whack-a-mole quality of the thing that really makes people unhappy--it's easy to laugh and say it's just a game when you're the one with the hammer but rather unpleasant if you're the mole.
Consequently, I predict if you see another internet space game with comparable economic features, even a more heavily pvp-based one (no empire equivalent, say) that however has better retaliatory mechanisms built in, you will see a mass exodus.
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Chelone
Stone Shadow Syndicate
deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:33:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Adapt you mean by not flying a Hulk at all? Or maybe not mine at all? If you were gonna mine with a hulk in empire, please... how would you adapt?
Twofold:
- Good tank,
- "Immunize" the belt you are mining in.
And by that I mean - get an alt, perhaps a trial account, come in and shoot your main with noob ship - here comes CONCORD. Now you have concord in your belt. Lots harder for goons to gank you.
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Hippy Dave
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:36:00 -
[139]
OMFG another thread about goonswarm killing miners.... Please for the love of god just deal with it and shut up and they will stop.
In their defence they have (to the best of my knowledge) specified areas of space you can go with no fear of ever being ganked by them, so if you really are that into mining and simply do not want to do anything else or take the risk just MOVE SYSTEMS or employ the myriad of other techniques mentioned in this and other threads to prevent it...
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Darkdewd
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:43:00 -
[140]
First off I'd like to say the last game like this I played were people laughed at the hoards of people saying they would quit and said "don't let the door hit you in the ass" "can I have your stuff" etc was Star Wars Galaxy. I played for 6 months and I was part of an the exodus that as far as I know is unmatched by any other MMO. They got like 300k players in the first week. By the time the game was 6 months old they had like 30k. I don't know the real numbers because they obviously didn't advertise it but man it was weird. One day there was 150 people in the big town. Then a week later 60 people. Then a week later you were lucky if you saw another person. You had to go to another planet to find people to buy stuff from etc. You think this game is immune to that you need to give me some of what your smoking I want to get high to. It was STAR WARS. Think about that for a second. Star Wars... You know 6 movies. Cartoons shows Sat night movies. Millions of fans.
I think I'll make a separate post about my issues with goon. Instead of letting it get lost in the void of 5 pages here. |
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:46:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Darkdewd
First off I'd like to say the last game like this I played were people laughed at the hoards of people saying they would quit and said "don't let the door hit you in the ass" "can I have your stuff" etc was Star Wars Galaxy. I played for 6 months and I was part of an the exodus that as far as I know is unmatched by any other MMO. They got like 300k players in the first week. By the time the game was 6 months old they had like 30k. I don't know the real numbers because they obviously didn't advertise it but man it was weird. One day there was 150 people in the big town. Then a week later 60 people. Then a week later you were lucky if you saw another person. You had to go to another planet to find people to buy stuff from etc. You think this game is immune to that you need to give me some of what your smoking I want to get high to. It was STAR WARS. Think about that for a second. Star Wars... You know 6 movies. Cartoons shows Sat night movies. Millions of fans.
I think I'll make a separate post about my issues with goon. Instead of letting it get lost in the void of 5 pages here.
Six months.... and how old is EVE and how many of the original player base still play? Just sayin...
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
It's great being a puppetmaster 
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Zeba
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:48:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Darkdewd
lolcatz
It might be star wars but it was run (into the ground) by Sony. Sony has serious problems managing anything thats not a generic japanese rpg and even then they suck.
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Q: WTF! Why?!
A: Because I can.
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Raytian
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:49:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Loyal Servant
OP: I have something that reminds me of you.
crybabies...
Which one is you?
This was me after following your link rofl
And this is me now zzzzz
In the end if the punishment was even remotely close to the crime I'd just roll with it, but eve is broken imo. Eve is far from a sandbox with this kind of punishment free suicide ganking/griefing. If some idiots barged into my house hollering some jihad nonsense I' put a .45 between the eyes with out even blinking. But in empire you can't do squat until it too late. Losing a ship in low sec or 0.0 is a far cry from suicide ganking in high sec.
Before ya ask I have already cleaned up most of my hangers and given the good stuff away. Just two more systems to go...
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Cyran Martellus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:49:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Spacy Tracy
Edited by: Spacy Tracy on 25/03/2008 04:48:38
Said it before and I'll say it again. All you leet fanboys trotting out the tiresome "it's a peeveepee game, noob!" and "get a ship and fight back" are all in for a rude surprise.
It's not going to be people leaving, prices going up or any other uninformed carebear wishes.
No - what you idiots don't realize is that CCP will eventually react. They've done it before re: high sec ganking and they'll do it again.
For the real room temperature IQ crowd : Goonswarm is doing this to ruin your game. You, the hardcore guy. They want to antagonize CCP so that your precious pvp-enabled game gets nerfed. It's like meta-griefing or something - with the real targets being the griefers.
You're all smarmy and "loving the tears" now. But you'll be ultra-whining up a storm when CCP takes the next step in rubberizing the game because you guys couldn't police yourselves.
Personally, I'll be very disappointed when that happens. I really like the pure openness of the game. But if you mouth-breathers can't control yourselves (or : if you cheer on the guys who are gleefully help bring ing about the destruction of your game), you're going to be the ones who see to get the short end of it. Not the whining carebears.
::shrug::
Outstanding post; very true and very sad.
Regardless of the Goonswarm's intentions, this is the road we're all currently on.
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Quelque Chose
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:51:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Darkdewd
It was STAR WARS. Think about that for a second. Star Wars... You know 6 movies. Cartoons shows Sat night movies. Millions of fans.
... and some of the ****tiest video games in the long and inspired history of ****ty video games. I never played SWG but I did manage to get stuck with Empire At War and I've plucked a few other Star Wars titles out of the bargain bin. I swear there's got to be a clause somewhere in the licensing contract that specifies, "game must suck."
So there you go. A Star Wars game falling on its ass doesn't really mean anything by itself.
______________________________
"Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space." |
Captain Hakon
0-0 Space Squad
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:47:00 -
[146]
Being a new player, I can only see that the long time/gang banger players want it their way and they don't give a crap if people quit...until nobody plays this game that is.
I signed on to get good at combat eventually, but I can also understand that others may not feel that way. I don't mind getting smoked, that is part and parcel to combat operations. As a military veteran I am under no illusions of what force is meant for.
Having said that...I think since this game is not TRULY player run and since that is the case, the system should punish the useless/trouble making players in a number of ways.
EX: You could have it like Empire/concord has a loss percentage allowable in its own/empire space. Once a trouble making corp/alliance exceeds that amount, a HUGE concord fleet mobilizes and hunts them down relentlessly until that alliance pays a reimbursement fee to the victim players who suffered a loss, or the corp is destroyed, charter rebuked, etc.
That amount should also include Empire lost revenue/tax fee's to the tune of high billions/low trillions.
The only option that alliance has to avoid this is to disband, or hunt down/police their own negligent corp to extinction. They can also surrender the negligent corp. to empire justice. Huge bounty should be placed on their heads to allow bounty hunting to really take off.
If a negligent corp. keeps at it, then they would be taken captive at the next NPC station they dock at...their player charactor would be "imprisoned" for 3 days to a week. This would not keep you from using alts though.
In conjunction with this, the player standings of the corp/alliance should be -10 with every empire entity period. Every agent that every single player in that trouble making corp/alliance would be -10 with a x4 time modifier to improve it.
Every item they sell anywhere should be subject to extremely high tax/broker fee's.
Then I would actually have some respect for the people who like to turn this great game into another first person shooter. They would then have a right to call themselves suicide gankers, because that is exactly what they would be doing to their game time!
Of course no insurance reimbursement for this kind of activity either. Maybe even freeze their wallet for a time period too.
If CCP wanted to, they could easily direct traffic in Jita (I hate this place, I wish I could buy stuff elsewhere)by imposing really crappy tax ratio's once it reaches a certain population cap. When you try to warp in the gate simply registers that you have to go elsewhere as Jita is jammed.
Yes I am aware this was initially designed as PVP, but CcP is a business and if they continue to see dollars flying away, they will make changes if they want to stay in businesss. EVE is too great to just be another FPS game.
Now of course low sec is full on brutal and should stay that way, but they would have much less resources so this would make those areas more desperate for expansion.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I have seen games depopulate to non-existence like all of you have. The same thing will happen with this game eventually. But in the meanwhile, I don't see any reason not to try to make the game prosper as much as possible.
"Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie". |
Cyriel Longinus
XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:48:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Wkumi
I got shot in the head when playing CSS, never gonna play that game again, i was just sitting there minding my own business as well.
HAHA
Yep, that's bascially it.
Gamer comes to EvE, gets shot to pieces then cries about it because he couldn't understand what EvE is.
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Quelque Chose
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:52:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus
Originally by: Wkumi
I got shot in the head when playing CSS, never gonna play that game again, i was just sitting there minding my own business as well.
HAHA
Yep, that's bascially it.
Gamer comes to EvE, gets shot to pieces then cries about it because he couldn't understand what EvE is.
I'm quoting a guy who agreed with somebody who compared Eve Online to Counterstrike and then accused somebody else of not getting it.
How many points do I get for that?
______________________________
"Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space." |
Shadow Joy
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.25 07:04:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Spacy Tracy
Edited by: Spacy Tracy on 25/03/2008 04:48:38
Said it before and I'll say it again. All you leet fanboys trotting out the tiresome "it's a peeveepee game, noob!" and "get a ship and fight back" are all in for a rude surprise.
It's not going to be people leaving, prices going up or any other uninformed carebear wishes.
No - what you idiots don't realize is that CCP will eventually react. They've done it before re: high sec ganking and they'll do it again.
For the real room temperature IQ crowd : Goonswarm is doing this to ruin your game. You, the hardcore guy. They want to antagonize CCP so that your precious pvp-enabled game gets nerfed. It's like meta-griefing or something - with the real targets being the griefers.
You're all smarmy and "loving the tears" now. But you'll be ultra-whining up a storm when CCP takes the next step in rubberizing the game because you guys couldn't police yourselves.
Personally, I'll be very disappointed when that happens. I really like the pure openness of the game. But if you mouth-breathers can't control yourselves (or : if you cheer on the guys who are gleefully help bring ing about the destruction of your game), you're going to be the ones who see to get the short end of it. Not the whining carebears.
::shrug::
Excellent post - but I think you may be giving CCP too much credit. Given the news item about miners buying mercs to tackle the Goons, I'm willing to bet that the powers that be think the miners already have a way to strike back.
But I've been wrong before.
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Kahega Amielden
Legacy Syndicate
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.03.25 07:11:00 -
[150]
You don't need a hulk to mine. Believe it or not, if current conditions make it impossible to mine with a hulk in hisec (which is BS as many methods of staying alive have been posted, then you can actually mine in a covetor.
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