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Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:04:00 - [301] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Post #305 Ehem. You said there were NO consequences, and I just showed there were.... 1. Insurance doesn't pay it all. There may not be any loot. 2. As Avon said, you don't play the game, do you? 3. The char is still locked down for 15 minutes gametime. 4. That's a problem for the guy who didn't bother train his combat skills, isn't it? Your arguments have been shot as full of holes as a very holey thing Anyway, the rules of the game are simple. The consequence for an unprovoked attack in high-sec are as they are. You signed onto them when you signed up. Essentially, and this may be hard for you to accept, its ALL your own fault!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:07:00 - [302] Originally by: baltec1 See if I did that it would go even slower. At the moment I am killing loads of battleships, faction spawns and even got an officer the other day. Have you even been out of high sec space? Do you even know how the standing things work? I guess you do not. --- Take Care is the CSM party for the free and independant players! Contact us and let us relay your ideas to CCP! Visit our Campaign Website
Dkorg Stasis Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:08:00 - [303] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Going to lowsec is consensual. Being ganked by some punks in highsec is not. Wrong. For the goons to blow up a hulk the pilot of a hulk must put it in a position where it can be blown up. The goons cannot force them to put the hulk in an attackable position. As long as you can attack someone then PvP is consensual by definition. Undocking is consent. Even in high sec. Just because you don't like that fact doesn't make it untrue. Quote: Tell me how players in poker do not have equal chances of winning unless they rig the deck? Cards are dealt at random, eh? How? By playing the game. If you flip out 10 cards and see who has a better poker hand then it's raw probability and both have an equal chance of winning. How ever if you play poker rather than just flip cards then skill comes into play and it is no longer equal. What you mean is that both players have a chance of winning. This is distinctly different from both having an equal chance of winning. Quote: How does someone with only industrial skills stand a chance of winning? How can someone like that kill the goon before he launches his attack? Yeah you can tank the ship. They can bring more DPS. Yeah you can make a run for the station when they show up. They can stay outside all day. See where I'm going? No I don't. Of course you can up the DPS. You appear to be saying that someone with only industrial skills should be able to tank any amount of DPS. That makes no sense. If you make a run for the station and dock you win. Goon is trying to pop the ship. If the ship is not popped then they loose. Also you're again basing on a fallacy. You posit that goon knows you're in a hulk when you're docked. You cannot make that assumption. If their goal is to pop hulks and you hit the station they're going to move on and find hulks. Second. Pre-summon concord. For them to avoid that they have to bring enough dps to pop you in the first shot for they will not be able to fire more than once. The no skill required to use civilian weapon on a rookie ship can accomplish this. You're whole position is based in fallacy. You do not have some right to not be messed with. Heck with no combat skills I can roll up and start mining the same rock you are. On the market I can undercut you. You have no recourse and no prevention to either of these actions. With goon the miner can completely prevent it.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:08:00 - [304] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 25/03/2008 15:03:23 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah And you can rat from -10 to 0 back in 2-3 days anyway, making a lot of money in the progress. You don't actually play Eve very much, do you? That or I am doing something very wrong. Been ratting in 0.0 for months and only have a 4.93 standing Standing increase is once per 15 minutes per system. Kill the biggest rat you can find quickly, jump system, and keep moving. See if I did that it would go even slower. At the moment I am killing loads of battleships, faction spawns and even got an officer the other day. Have you even been out of high sec space? running around in 0.0 with a ratting ship is about as safe as sticking you finger in a plug... Depends on where you live. There are areas in 0.0 that are pretty damn safe. RIT triangle comes to mind if you have proper organisation.
Tankn00blicus Cosmic Vacum Cleaners	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:09:00 - [305] Edited by: Tankn00blicus on 25/03/2008 15:15:12 Edited by: Tankn00blicus on 25/03/2008 15:13:42 The JihadSwarm hardly matters to me, even speaking as a miner myself. However these arguments that completely twist the reality of things do bother me. Originally by: Kerfira There are consequences: * Your ship gets blown up. * You get a security hit. * You can't enter space in another ship for 15 minutes. * Your target may shoot you for a month. - You don't lose much if it's T1 due to insurance. If you manufacture the ship and perhaps even the equipment yourself you lose even less. - These guys live in 0.0. Ratting there can get your sec up pretty fast if you do it right. Not to mention with the jihad there's at least 50 or so people involved from what I hear, if one person can't get into high sec due to sec, others can take his place while he gets his sec up, then he can come back to make up for others whose sec drops too low, and so on. - Oh no! 15 minutes! What ever will I do?! It's not like you can stay docked for 15 minutes, can you? Or better yet, start heading to another system to buy another gank ship in your pod (which is exempt from kill rights so you don't have much to worry about unless the guy shows up in a suicide gank ship as well real damn fast)? - Sure. But when he's part of a 5000+ member alliance, it probably won't end well for you.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:10:00 - [306] You get more faction per kill/15min going from -10 to 0 than you do trying to go from 4.92 to 5. But, regardless, it's an equilibrium point, and moving it to where the suicide-ganker loses 60-80-100 million per attack instead of 10 million would reduce the number of ganks quite a bit, which would be just fine with me. High sec would still allow PVP, would still allow ganks, no place is safe, blah blah blah, just lose 100 mil per Hulk you're gonna kill, and if you're still determined to go on with it, be everyone's guest.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:11:00 - [307] Originally by: Kerfira Ehem. You said there were NO consequences, and I just showed there were.... 1. Insurance doesn't pay it all. There may not be any loot. Fortunately for the gankers, this risk element is totally removed by using scanners. Yes some gets destroyed, but you can calculate that in. Originally by: Kerfira 2. As Avon said, you don't play the game, do you? And you don't know the standing mechanics do you? Originally by: Kerfira 3. The char is still locked down for 15 minutes gametime. So? If the consequence can be fully migitated, there is no consequence. Originally by: Kerfira 4. That's a problem for the guy who didn't bother train his combat skills, isn't it? No, it means there again is no consequence. Originally by: Kerfira Your arguments have been shot as full of holes as a very holey thing No, my post is still perfeclty standing, and your post just show you don't have any understanding of the game mechanics. Originally by: Kerfira Anyway, the rules of the game are simple. The consequence for an unprovoked attack in high-sec are as they are. You signed onto them when you signed up. Essentially, and this may be hard for you to accept, its ALL your own fault!!! We're promised that there are consequences and there are not. So these mechanics must be adjusted. --- Take Care is the CSM party for the free and independant players! Contact us and let us relay your ideas to CCP! Visit our Campaign Website
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:14:00 - [308] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Kerfira Ehem. You said there were NO consequences, and I just showed there were.... 1. Insurance doesn't pay it all. There may not be any loot. Fortunately for the gankers, this risk element is totally removed by using scanners. Yes some gets destroyed, but you can calculate that in. Originally by: Kerfira 2. As Avon said, you don't play the game, do you? And you don't know the standing mechanics do you? Originally by: Kerfira 3. The char is still locked down for 15 minutes gametime. So? If the consequence can be fully migitated, there is no consequence. Originally by: Kerfira 4. That's a problem for the guy who didn't bother train his combat skills, isn't it? No, it means there again is no consequence. Originally by: Kerfira Your arguments have been shot as full of holes as a very holey thing No, my post is still perfeclty standing, and your post just show you don't have any understanding of the game mechanics. Originally by: Kerfira Anyway, the rules of the game are simple. The consequence for an unprovoked attack in high-sec are as they are. You signed onto them when you signed up. Essentially, and this may be hard for you to accept, its ALL your own fault!!! We're promised that there are consequences and there are not. So these mechanics must be adjusted. tell me. how many ships have you lost to a gank in the past week?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:16:00 - [309] Originally by: Tankn00blicus The JihadSwarm hardly matters to me, even speaking as a miner myself. However these arguments that completely twist the reality of things do bother me. Originally by: Kerfira There are consequences: * Your ship gets blown up. * You get a security hit. * You can't enter space in another ship for 15 minutes. * Your target may shoot you for a month. - You don't lose much if it's T1 due to insurance. - These guys live in 0.0. Ratting there can get your sec up pretty fast if you do it right. Not to mention with the jihad there's at least 50 or so people involved from what I hear, if one person can't get into high sec due to sec, others can take his place while he gets his sec up, then he can come back to make up for others whose sec drops too low, and so on. - Oh no! 15 minutes! What ever will I do?! - Sure. But when he's part of a 5000+ member alliance, it probably won't end well for you. This was an argument against a guy who said there were NO consequences..... Doesn't matter much what you think about it either, TBH..... These are the OFFICIAL game sanctions against a player who makes an unprovoked attack in high-sec. As such, they're not contestable as they ARE the rules of the game! People agreed to the rules when they signed up. It's as simple as that. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Overwhelmed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:16:00 - [310] 1) If suicide ganking was as warm and fuzzy as you try to paint it, it wouldn't be as rare as it is. It takes a lot of patience and doesn't pay nearly as well as low sec gate camping for instance. 2) Even if insurance for ganking was removed completely (and I agree that insurance should be tweaked to match the wax and wane of actual ship prices - nothing more), Jihadswarm would still be suicide ganking. They would easily make the money back ratting in their 0.0 space while gaining sec status. They do it because they want to, not because some proportional risk/reward adjustment shows its the best way to make ISK in the game. It isn't.

Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:20:00 - [311] Originally by: Kerfira People agreed to the rules when they signed up. It's as simple as that. Yeah, and some people are disagreeing with the rules and they're unsigning now. Also simple. This thread has derailed, really, and is now a discussion about what some (different) people want, with CSM-candidates participating in the discussion for their own reasons (good for them).
Morfane The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:20:00 - [312] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 24/03/2008 19:22:57 Time to end pvp in empire. No insurance for concord popped ships. Permanent standing loss for high sec criminals. Criminals are outlaws in high sec and free-for-all to shoot at. Empire factions hunt down criminal alliances such as Goonswarm. Fixed
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:23:00 - [313] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah We're promised that there are consequences and there are not. So these mechanics must be adjusted. You see, you really need to learn to argue better, or at least be more honest. There are consequences, they are clear and easy to understand. What you are saying is there are no consequences, what you mean is that in your opinion the existing consequences are not harsh enough. That is where the arguement breaks down. You have moved from the realm of fact to the one of personal opinion; but you are dressing up your opinion and trying to pass it off as fact. There is consequence. There is not widespread anarchy in hi-sec space; ergo the consequence is effective. There are times when reward outweighs the consequences. Players choose their own risk vs reward levels. If players put themselves in a position where their destruction is profitable, and do not do everything possible to mitigate the risks, the problem is theirs, not the mechanics. If it is impossible to adequately mitigate the risk, no matter how much effort is put in to it relative to the effort of the attackers then the system is unbalanced. Whilst we are talking about multiple players working together to kill a single target I think we are far from that situation. Personally I believe that there is room for an aditional feature to help provide a better level of protection - but increased consequence or game mechanic intervention is not the solution. The first only raises the break-even point, and the latter only serves to absolve players of personal responsibility. The appropriate tools need to be available to players, but that is not to say they should not come with drawbacks, because increased protection should come at a price - it isn't a right. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:24:00 - [314] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah We're promised that there are consequences and there are not. So essentially, you're claiming that: 1. The offenders ship doesn't get blown up! 2. The offender doesn't get a security hit! 3. The offender can immediately undock in another ship! 4. The offender can't be shot by his target for a month! The OFFICIAL consequences for the offender are as I previously listed! They DO happen! Thus there ARE consequences! Nowhere does it say they're severe! Your claim that there are no consequences is patently false. The consequences might not be to your liking, but they ARE there! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Esmenet Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:25:00 - [315] Originally by: Tankn00blicus If you manufacture the ship and perhaps even the equipment yourself you lose even less. No its not. Your ship is worth the market value, it dont matter if you bought it or made it yourself.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:26:00 - [316] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Kerfira People agreed to the rules when they signed up. It's as simple as that. Yeah, and some people are disagreeing with the rules and they're unsigning now. Also simple. Bye bye.... CIHYS? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Lady Karma State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:26:00 - [317] Ankhesentapemkah, you talk about the lack of risk and consequence to suicide gankers. Pleases tell me what the risk is for a high sec Hulk pilot in an npc corp, if suicide ganking was removed.
idrop Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:33:00 - [318] Edited by: idrop on 25/03/2008 15:33:58 Originally by: Chelb Originally by: idrop Now the irony is that Goons are using a perfectly valid game tactic to attack miners. People whine about risk versus reward, yet fail to recognize that the attackers lose their ships, 100% of the time (unless they exploit or something). I must be missing something here! The goonies reclaim, in their site that, only this week, they killed 86 Ships and lost 0!!! The last one, in Osmon 07:55, EVE time, 8 of them destroyed a Mackinaw. Have all of their BS, BC, and cruisers been destroyed too? Don't think so! Besides they must feel like heroes, 8 against 1, that cannot even defend himself! They don't post their losses. Every ship they've aggressed with has been blown up, unless they exploited and evaded concord which is a bannable offense. And there are punishments for these actions. What people are complaining about are not the actual punishments, but that people have found ways to minimize these punishments via the sandbox metaphor everyone likes bringing up, which makes all arguments of "they don't get hurt enough" invalid - because they do get hurt, they're just smart enough to deal with it and minimize its impact.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:33:00 - [319] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 25/03/2008 15:30:04 Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 25/03/2008 15:28:51 Originally by: Lady Karma Ankhesentapemkah, you talk about the lack of risk and consequence to suicide gankers. Pleases tell me what the risk is for a high sec Hulk pilot in an npc corp, if suicide ganking was removed. He can get better ore by moving to lowsec. that doesnt answer the question. what risk would be in HIGH sec.
Lady Karma State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:34:00 - [320] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah He can get better ore by moving to lowsec. We are not talking about low sec are we. So your proposal is that Hulk miners should have NO risk....because they don't want it or something.

Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:37:00 - [321] Originally by: Overwhelmed And that's why capable miners should be cheering on the Goons taking out their more gullible competition. Except that being "capable" doesn't allow you to control the Goons; they'll attack anyone they damn well please, including you. And, the bottom line is the bottom line; whether I lose 100 mil due to Hulk exploding, or I lose 100 mil due to Trit being 0.50 ISK and Pye being 1.02 ISK, it's still the same loss, in theory, so why cheer? In practice, I'd rather not lose 100 mil till later, and hopefully I can "lose" it at a time when buying a battleship also only costs me 20 million.
Overwhelmed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:40:00 - [322] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Except that being "capable" doesn't allow you to control the Goons; they'll attack anyone they damn well please, including you. And, the bottom line is the bottom line; whether I lose 100 mil due to Hulk exploding, or I lose 100 mil due to Trit being 0.50 ISK and Pye being 1.02 ISK, it's still the same loss, in theory, so why cheer? In practice, I'd rather not lose 100 mil till later, and hopefully I can "lose" it at a time when buying a battleship also only costs me 20 million. Here is a secret: Goons don't like low-pop high sec areas.
Lady Karma State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:40:00 - [323] Originally by: Letouk Mernel And, the bottom line is the bottom line; whether I lose 100 mil due to Hulk exploding, or I lose 100 mil due to Trit being 0.50 ISK and Pye being 1.02 ISK, it's still the same loss, in theory, so why cheer? In practice, I'd rather not lose 100 mil till later, and hopefully I can "lose" it at a time when buying a battleship also only costs me 20 million. I'm no industrialist Letouk, but if trit prices go down for any reason, wouldn't you BUY trit and make cheaper ships to sell. The market doesn't sit still, why should your strategy
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:42:00 - [324] Originally by: Letouk Mernel The risk to a Hulk pilot in the NPC corp will be that the price of Trit and Pye will plummet due to too many Hulks mining, and thus his profits will be crap. He's doing a non-combat activity and he's getting a non-combat risk. Nice and simple answer. Though perhaps still too complex for some. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Lady Karma State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:44:00 - [325] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Nice and simple answer. Though perhaps still too complex for some. See my post above, perhaps too simple a concept for some to adapt
Esmenet Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:45:00 - [326] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Overwhelmed And that's why capable miners should be cheering on the Goons taking out their more gullible competition. Except that being "capable" doesn't allow you to control the Goons; they'll attack anyone they damn well please, including you. No beeing capable just makes you able to avoid them when/if they come to your system.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:46:00 - [327] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah He can get better ore by moving to lowsec. I'm not sure you get risk. I'm not sure you get my point. If people are willing to take the risk, then people that stay behind in highsec get their profits reduced by these people. And thus it all balances out. --- Take Care is the CSM party for the free and independant players! Contact us and let us relay your ideas to CCP! Visit our Campaign Website
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:47:00 - [328] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Avon Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah He can get better ore by moving to lowsec. I'm not sure you get risk. I'm not sure you get my point. If people are willing to take the risk, then people that stay behind in highsec get their profits reduced by these people. And thus it all balances out. I'm not sure you get risk. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Hsan Evets Cash Money Brothers Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:50:00 - [329] Originally by: Tecam Hund The current mechanics were in place for years. Now that one alliance decides to use it to their advantage people cry nerf. Just like Privateers and that alliance that used game mechanics to avoid war decs (I forgot the name). It happens and mechanics were changed because of it.
Lady Karma State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:52:00 - [330] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah If people are willing to take the risk, then people that stay behind in highsec get their profits reduced by these people. And thus it all balances out. Trit mining has been mentioned many times, a cheap mineral, but it is the backbone of the ship building industry. How is the trit in low sec any better than the high sec trit? Where is the risk to a high sec Hulk pilot, since you skipped over that part. DO high sec Hulk pilots really think they only need to buy one ship and it gives them never ending returns? Thats a pretty unbalanced investment right there



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