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Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Commander OTG I can salvage a large size mission in about 20 minutes...getting anywhere from 10 to 15 million on average. Maybe on Worlds Collide, yes, but on most other missions I've run, the salvage will net you 2 - 7m max and that's if you salvage everything. You'd make far more with your time actually running the missions, collecting the bounties and LP.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Burnharder The idea that "Eve is a harsh place" is a joke. It isn't harsh for the people looting the salvage. Maybe. I guess it depends on what you mean by "harsh" or what you think the game's designers do. If it means "much exposed to highly predictable and profitable NPC combat", salvagers don't have it very harsh. Inherently though, they do have to compete with other players a lot: mission runners, other salvagers, and marketeers. I believe that this player vs. player contention is more what is meant by "harsh" and that it has very little at all to do with the NPC side of the game. By that standard, ninja salvaging is a more in line with EVE's ethos than, say, mission running. The corollary to this is that any element of player contention salvaging brings to mission running is A Good ThingÖ. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Commander OTG I can salvage a large size mission in about 20 minutes...getting anywhere from 10 to 15 million on average. Maybe on Worlds Collide, yes, but on most other missions I've run, the salvage will net you 2 - 7m max and that's if you salvage everything. You'd make far more with your time actually running the missions, collecting the bounties and LP. I think you're basically right, though a lot must depend on which hub they're salvaging in. I'd guess the advantages in the less lucrative hubs are that they don't have to grind up standings, and that maybe they find probing, hunting, and competing with other players for iskies more interesting than dealing with pure PvE. But I have to say it's funny how mission runners who are angry about the salvage system--like in this very thread--so often have exactly the opposite view that you do. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
xenoin The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Jolliejoe Edited by: Jolliejoe on 27/03/2008 13:58:14 Originally by: xenoin Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW. Again, you are missing the point totally. That is not the point.. Reread this thread again dude. And to the previous posters who are addressing me personally: I'm more than self sufficient and if people do try to come into my missions I'll simply pop every single wreck. They will leave soon enough. I don't have a problem with salvage thieves because they do not show up. I have enough other means of income also. The fact that I'm responding in A thread doesn't necessarily means that thread applies to me now does it? The POINT is that you do not like people being able to intrude on your missions. I mean salvage an "essential part" is complete bs. You make money on bounties, you get the mission isk reward, you get the lp but you WANT the salvage too. Oh dears missions ain't perfect, get over it.
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:39:00 - [35] An example of what i have salvaged in the last 45 minutes. Alloyed Tritanium Bars..........21 $9.5 million worth Armor Plates....................31 $4.1 million worth Broken Drone Transceivers.......16 Burned Logic Circuits...........131 Charred Micro Circuits..........119 Conductive Polymer..............87 Contaminated Lorentz Fluid......11 Contaminated Nanite Fluid.......22 Damaged Artificial Neural.......92 Defective Current Pump..........26 Fried Interface Circuit.........166 $3 million worth Malfunctioning Shield Emitter...114 Melted Capicitor console........31 $8 million worth Scorched Telemetry Processor....351 Tangled Power Conduit...........44 Tripped Power Circuit...........182 $3 million worth Ward Console....................102 Average ingame prices used to calculate...... One advantage I have is that I have befriended a few mission runners that will gang me and allow me to tractor in the wrecks. I return the favor by offering them 50% of the take, nost of which refuse (thank you again). Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:51:00 - [36] What system do you salvage in?
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:08:00 - [37] I have 14 systems so far that I have intricate bookmark grids set up. This morning was spent 6 jumps from Motsu. I typically work the systems between Motsu and Urlen. Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Miller Vance The System	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Jolliejoe OK, granted... the gm's like people stealing salvage and a lot of people ingame like it and it isn't an exploit. But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre. Umm, EVE had a long history before the salvage system was even at the design phase, to say it's an essential part of a mission runner's income is patently false... It augments a mission runner's income, but if salvage is really how you're making all your money running missions you might want to consider investing some time reading mission guides cause you're obviously missing something.
Iomar Uisdean Manti Corp	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:10:00 - [39] Hmm, I have yet to experience having someone "liberate" the salvage that is generated during my missioning. I wonder why that is? Oh, right. I don't mission in the hubs where there's hordes of other missioners and the professional salvagers plus the handful of folks who probe out hi-sec missions for amusement. On top of that, I salvage as I go. 7th slot on a Nighthawk is a handy place to mount a salvage module. Got plenty of cargo space for salvage plus any interesting loot I find. It's actually not too uncommon for me to be able to fit all but the really bulky crap into my hold for an entire level 4 mission. Also, good luck finding my mission in the first place. I don't use drones, I watch directional and local closely, chances are very good I'll see the probes long before they see me. Oh yeah, forgot the last part. If someone is probing my mission, the salvage is the least of my worries and it's highly unlikely that's what they're after in lowsec. If someone actually finds my mission before I safespot (i.e. I wasn't paying close enough attention), they are welcome to any loot or salvage left behind. Finally, I can't guarantee that I won't come back with a more suitable ship to reclaim "my" salvage.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean Hmm, I have yet to experience having someone "liberate" the salvage that is generated during my missioning. I wonder why that is? Oh, right. I don't mission in the hubs where there's hordes of other missioners and the professional salvagers plus the handful of folks who probe out hi-sec missions for amusement. On top of that, I salvage as I go. 7th slot on a Nighthawk is a handy place to mount a salvage module. Got plenty of cargo space for salvage plus any interesting loot I find. It's actually not too uncommon for me to be able to fit all but the really bulky crap into my hold for an entire level 4 mission. Also, good luck finding my mission in the first place. I don't use drones, I watch directional and local closely, chances are very good I'll see the probes long before they see me. Oh yeah, forgot the last part. If someone is probing my mission, the salvage is the least of my worries and it's highly unlikely that's what they're after in lowsec. If someone actually finds my mission before I safespot (i.e. I wasn't paying close enough attention), they are welcome to any loot or salvage left behind. Finally, I can't guarantee that I won't come back with a more suitable ship to reclaim "my" salvage. Oh god, THIS
syphurous Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Roche Pso Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Incursus tanks gank brutix and mission raven, I know, I salvaged their wrecks and looted them, they weren't going to be coming back to get it anytime soon ( well 15 min anyway lol ). CN loot FTW Originally by: GM Faolchu People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong.
SETH KAIN Astrodynamic Innovations	Posted - 2008.03.28 05:50:00 - [42] Personally I respect the skills of any salvager that is able to probe me out on a mission and it also adds a certain amount of risk when doing missions even in empire. When probed out I never smack the intruder I just waste every frickin wreck in the mission and move on. SETH
Roche Pso Deltole Research Labs	Posted - 2008.03.28 08:16:00 - [43] Originally by: syphurous Originally by: Roche Pso Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Incursus tanks gank brutix and mission raven, I know, I salvaged their wrecks and looted them, they weren't going to be coming back to get it anytime soon ( well 15 min anyway lol ). CN loot FTW Missioners... please ignore that post, shooting salvagers is definitley the best way to deal with them
Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Roche Pso Originally by: Commander OTG Im going to break a cardinal Salvagers rule and tell you how to reduce the salvage "thieves" intrusions. ... Don't smack talk the salvager that does show up. Simply advise him to leave. If he fails to leave then blow them up. Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Salvaging doesn't flag you, so the mission runner can't shoot you without Concord getting involved. You'd have to start stealing loot really before they'd take a pop at you, and even then it's a gamble given a ninja-salvager could be a PvP-fit ship in disguise with a web/scram, whereas mission runners have no need for things like that (nor ship scanners to even assess their chances).
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.04.01 18:44:00 - [45] Quote: Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. It's a really, REALLY stupid idea for a CNR to shoot at someone ninja LOOTING (ninja SALVAGING doesn't flag you). Sure, 3/4 of the time you pop his cheap ship/scare him off...that 1/4, though, will come back in a PVP ship and waste your expensive mission ship.
Nekopyat Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.01 19:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Revan Tiberius i dont think i will go away and no i aint going to post in one of the other 38234729 threads on this dam forum Thats right, because your whine is sooo incredibly revolutionary and important that it requires its own thread. but but, he is bringing such new and refeshing ideas to the table! look at that insightfullness! Heh. Though I do admit, I think any mission that has, as part of it's briefing 'kill everyone who shows up' should automatically flag players enterting as hostile and thus free game.
YourDaddi Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.02 05:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius The crying when viewed in relation to that tough guy avatar you chose is priceless irony. nice one
Svedge	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:31:00 - [48] Edited by: Svedge on 02/04/2008 23:31:33 Edited by: Svedge on 02/04/2008 23:31:15 A tard wasted his ship to Concord today, he had been furious on me the last two days for finding his mission site. He and his friends scanned me down, but he went alone to greet me with his blazing turrets .
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:37:00 - [49] If you're trying to be objective about it, there wasn't a great way to deal with the issue. The logic gets tortured either way. I think the devs like leaving it the way it is because . . . well, anything that weeds out the weak - or at leasts makes them melt down in public - is a plus. The thing is, salvaging wrecks is allowed because the wreck doesn't belong to anyone. That's inconsistent with the fact that the loot inside the wreck does belong to the person who made the wreck. That would be like saying its theft steal someones cigarettes from an abandoned car, but its just fine to dismantle the whole thing to get the radio out. Also, unless things have changed, concord definately does care if you decide to shoot someone else's wreck, instead of salvaging it. And what, exactly, is the logic behind being able to tractor your own wrecks, but not those you just stumbled across? There's also an problem with the argument that missions should have danger, that mission runners shouldn't expect reward with no risk. That is exactly what hi sec ninja salvagers are getting. If the mission runner has to expect someoene can ninja his wreck, the salvager should have to expect something unfortunate could happen to him, too. I'm not into ninja salvaging, but do support the idea. I do think they need to handle it in a way that makes sense. Maybe we'd be best off if they declared that loot is a ffa and doesn't belong to anyone. And they better upgrade the forum servers before they make that move. ;-)
Oldin Kinrod Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Msobe The thing is, salvaging wrecks is allowed because the wreck doesn't belong to anyone. That's inconsistent with the fact that the loot inside the wreck does belong to the person who made the wreck. That would be like saying its theft steal someones cigarettes from an abandoned car, but its just fine to dismantle the whole thing to get the radio out. You are correct, there are two different things happening. That is also because they are two different things. People like to lump them together, but they are separate entities requiring different ways to extract the goodness. Quote: Also, unless things have changed, concord definately does care if you decide to shoot someone else's wreck, instead of salvaging it. And what, exactly, is the logic behind being able to tractor your own wrecks, but not those you just stumbled across? This is most likely due to code sharing (THIS IS MY ASSUMPTION) as the same happens with jetcans as well. As for why you cannot tractor others stuff, you can if they are in the same corp, most probably a design decision when implementing tractor beams. Quote: There's also an problem with the argument that missions should have danger, that mission runners shouldn't expect reward with no risk. That is exactly what hi sec ninja salvagers are getting. If the mission runner has to expect someoene can ninja his wreck, the salvager should have to expect something unfortunate could happen to him, too. And they already do, they have the risk (if probing anywhere other than a mission hub) of wasting time and probes findng nothing. They also risk that the mission runner will turn the agro towards the salvager. It still stands that (unless the mission runner is ill equipt and doesn't research their missions) there is no risk for the mission runner - you can basically set up a ship to sit in one spot, tank the damage and slowly pick everyone off. I do like how you've made the same mistake as others though, the wreck doesn't belong to the mission runner. If anything it belongs to the poor NPC he just blew up. To say the wreck is owned by the mission runner, is to say your wreck belongs to me if I blew your ship up. It already doesn't make much sense in terms of loot. Quote: I'm not into ninja salvaging, but do support the idea. I do think they need to handle it in a way that makes sense. Maybe we'd be best off if they declared that loot is a ffa and doesn't belong to anyone. And they better upgrade the forum servers before they make that move. ;-) We should, as since its inception it hasn't worked as the miners had hoped and causes problems for new player who don't know any better (and would also return the meaning of 'jettison" back too). People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:56:00 - [51] So much for making a (I thought) clear post. You manage to misunderstand me anyhow. Basically, logic isn't on your side. But don't worry, its not on the other side either. That's my post in a nut shell. Strange you'd decide to pick my post apart and contradict me when my view is that ninja salvaging should be just fine - so agree with my conclusion but whine about my reasoning? OOOOKAY. You're being an idiot if you refuse to see anything odd about loot belonging to the person who made the wreck, while the wreck belongs to no one. It should be one way or the other, not one way in once case and arbitrarily different in the other. (I take the view that either way would be fine, but the more intersting way would be to say that neither loot nor wrecks have an "owner.") Still, you take a logical argument for why you should get to salvage, but then where game logic goes against you, say its just the way it is, and doesn't mean anything. Just code sharing, you assume. Or a design decision. But still, if CONCORD cares enough to blow you up for shooting a wreck, why are you allowed to salvage it? Pick a response, then stick to it. If its no one's wreck, everyone should get to use (or abuse) it however they see fit. Same for tractoring - if you are free to salvage a wreck, there's no reasonable reason that can be given for why you can not tractor it as well. No one is dumb enough to buy your assessment of a ninja salvager's risks. As you say, they run a risk if they aren't probing around a mission hub. I wonder exactly where the hordes of people are who probe out mission runners in empty systems. If you imagine someone would, yeah, he'd be running a risk of turning up empty. If he is in a busy area, he has zero risk. So the only risk you have is if you decide to hang out in a room full of rats . . . if you make that choice, yes, you choose to take a risk. Its entirely up to you though - you can always BM and come back later. And if mission running is risk free - why do people occasionally lose mission ships? It can be relatively safe, but is never 100% loss proof. Unlike ninja salvaging. I don't make any claims that wrecks belong to anyone. I say "his wreck" for convenience. You can feel free to substitute anything that works for you. Possibly "any wrecks which come in to existence due to aggressive actions on a third party by a mission runner" if that works better for you.
Oldin Kinrod	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Msobe So much for making a (I thought) clear post. You manage to misunderstand me anyhow. I think we have misunderstood each other, I was merely adding to you post - sorry if it seemed I was attacking your opinion. I agree that there are many inconsistencies when it comes to loot and salvage, I was just reiterating what has been stated time and time again from Devs and GMs. My point about loot is valid, as when I started playing unless it was in your cargohold it was fair game for anyone to collect. This mirrored the same regardless if it was a player or an NPC that was killed. The logic was then screwed up with can flagging. As for the code sharing comment - this was not meant to be a logical argument of why you should get salvage, but my opinion on why it could be working the way it does. I hadn't stated my opinion on whether I liked it that way or not. And as for tractoring rights, this again was my opinion on how I had seen it work - not whether I thought it was logical or valid. Onto your assessment of risks - it has been stated across the board that mission running is relatively risk free - as i stated in my response. Sure people lose ships in missions, I have even done so myself - but this (which goes back to my statement) was because I didn't research my mission and wasn't set up for it. Just like ninja salvaging has the same risks, the salvager risks that he could jump into someones mission and get blown to pieces by the rats. Whether you want to accept this as risk is up to you but it is still a risk the salvagers have. And I apologise for the statement assuming you meant "his wreck" as ownership. Personally I would have just gone with "the wreck", but sure I can see what you were doing. My stance on this whole issue is that can/loot flagging rights is what is causing the confusing about ownership, and my opinion is to revert it back to how it used to be. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Vacca Indomita Neighbour of the Beast	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:31:00 - [53] I think the following situation could theoretically satisfy the questions about Concord's attitude about cans and wrecks: When a ship is destroyed, it always leaves a can inside the wreckage. Wrecks are not tractorable, only the can inside the wreck, which drags the wreckage with it. Thus, if a mission runner chooses to blow up his own can(taking the wreck with it) Concord doesn't care. Once wreckage is salvaged, it leaves the can naked to space, which empty cans cannot withstand, so they immediately go pop. Just a Hypothesis
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.03 08:46:00 - [54] In addition to what Oldin Kinrod said about risk, there is the threat of violent reprecussions from the missioners. I've been told to watch it and that it won't be as fun when I find myself podded and so on many times. True, it hasn't happened yet, but I expect it won't be long now
perix	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:01:00 - [55] If you do not like people ninjaing your salvage just ask a noob in the corporation to do it for you. It should leave little salvage left and make you and the noob quite happy.
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:09:00 - [56] We do mostly agree, Oldin. On the risks, we don't, and I'm maybe a little less accepting of the decision to just leave a contradictory situation in place. But we don't really have any major argument. Risk-wise - I see a big difference in the amount of risk a mission runner takes compared to a salvager. Just like I see a huge difference in the risk a mission runner takes compared to a pirate. I think there should be more risk for the salvager, or less reward. Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Missions can be low risk if the pilot is smart and attentive. Salvaging is low risk by its very nature. (And no, I don't think being threatened by a mission runner - who knows Concord will blow his ass out of the sky if he follows through - counts as a real sort of risk.) Vacca - thats an interesting way to explain the situation. Myself, I'd like to see the situation make sense without putting a lot of thought into it.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Msobe Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Missions can be low risk if the pilot is smart and attentive. Salvaging is low risk by its very nature. Mining. Don't even have to be smart and attentetive. A vital part of EVE. Originally by: Msobe (And no, I don't think being threatened by a mission runner - who knows Concord will blow his ass out of the sky if he follows through - counts as a real sort of risk.) Piratey types can suicide gank in high sec for profit, so surely missioners can do the same for revenge.
Tsanse Kinske	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Msobe Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Are we even playing the same game? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lucy Lucy	Posted - 2008.04.03 23:25:00 - [59] To the salvagers: As an occasional mission runner, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to salvage my mission. Most of the time I could care less about the salvage. But I think it's rude to just pop in and start just becuase you can.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.04.03 23:53:00 - [60] Quote: To the salvagers: As an occasional mission runner, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to salvage my mission. Most of the time I could care less about the salvage. But I think it's rude to just pop in and start just becuase you can. To pirates: As an occasional lowsec ratter, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to ransom my ship. Most of the time it's somewhat and I could care less, but I think it's rude to just warp in and demand that of me.

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